Boro feedback... why do you use it or not use it??? [Archive]

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 10:24am

Ok, I am totally in love with glass... but particularly boro. Most of you know how passionate I am about this stuff. It's my life. I think about it 24/7. I'm in a position to bridge a gap and hopefully get more of you into working boro. The torches and oxygen supply are just becoming cost effective for home bead makers to take the plunge into hard glass. So, I'm starting this thread to provide answers to questions and get feedback on what you guys think. If you have any questions or comments, let's discuss them. I want everybody to be as excited as I am to open the kiln and see something totally different than what went in. :love:

Cosmo

2006-01-06, 10:31am

I mainly started working with it because of the colors. I got tired of the bright solid colors in soft glass, and liked the way you could get multiple colors out of a single rod of boro. I also like the colors you can get from just fuming on clear glass.

I keep working with it because it's more forgiving. Many times I have started working on something, sat it down and turned the torch off, and come back later and finished it. Plus, it lends itself nicely to working on larger pieces.

The only things I don't like are the cost of the glass and how much oxygen you use to work it (although recently I've been working with two concentrators instead of tanked oxygen) but like they say - you gotta pay to play!

alexm

2006-01-06, 11:02am

I dabble in boro, but I mostly use soft glass.

I too love the colors I can get out of boro, but I often get dull colors. I am working on compiling a list of boro recipes for brighter colors. If you would publish a book on color recipes I would be the first in line for it.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 11:10am

I agree Chad, It's expensive to feed a torch oxygen to work boro... but there is good news on the horizon. There is a new concentrator. It is the M-10 and it will run a Piranha like it's on a tank. It screams that torch. That concentrator is very affordable new. They are also coming out with an M-30 that will power a much larger torch. I'm really excited about this and it's one of the reasons for starting this thread. We are on the verge of it becoming very affordable for the home studio to work boro effortlessly. No more lugging tanks. Woohoo! :D

Alex, I feel you. I've struggled with the baby poop browns myself. It's really about the recipes, but also flame atmosphere. If you work in a reduced environment, it's really really tricky. It can be done, just look at Lori Robbins work. Having oxygen flow makes the bright colors alot easier in my opinion. I will hopefully be doing a few videos soon and I am expanding into teaching around at different studios. I think a video would be better than a book... since boro really requires the different flame atmospheres and that would be easier to show in full motion. :D If you ever see something and want to know the colors I used, just ask. I don't have any secrets... I'm just too lazy to tell most days. :lol:

flamesofglass

2006-01-06, 11:12am

Being new to lampwork in general I just haven't tried Boro but I already have Doug R's dvd. I have a Lynx torch and any oxy concentrator. I'm guessing I'll need a second oxy concentrator before I can begin a boro experiement, no?

Thanks for the thread!!!

Cheers ~

Robert

R4GlassStudio

2006-01-06, 11:13am

Boro!!!!!! Whoo Hoo!! I started on a hothead and Bullseye rods. Then moved to the minor and Moretti. A bunch of torches and glass later..... now I'm on the Beth Great White and Boro. It was a natural progression for me. I like everything about boro. It is; easy to use, very forgiving, more working time without thermal shocking, wonderful color effects and provides endless opportunities for unique colors and artwork.
Cost of glass really is a very very very small factor in art. Even with gas, O2 and glass... it still costs less than $1 to make a $100 marble or less than 10 cents to make a $10 bead. It is an artists TIME that has the value. With the cost of the soft glass special colors on the rise, it's even less of an issue. Then taking into account that boro work is 90% clear and only 10% color.... it's starting to even out.

R4GlassStudio

2006-01-06, 11:15am

12879AlexM....
Check out "The Cookbook of Color Borosilicate Recipes" available in any store!

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 11:30am

I was gonna mention that book Ron, but got side tracked. It's an awesome book with some really easy to do recipes. Lori and Rocio really out did themselves with all that info in an affordable book. It's great to get started with bor beads. :D

Also, for those of you new to the idea of boro, Ron is a wealth of information. He's one of the nicest guys in the business and has become a good friend of mine. I owe a lot of where I am today to him and his awesome customer service. If you don't have a flame working account with Art Glass House, I would highly suggest getting one and doing business with that company. :D

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 11:31am

flamesofglass

2006-01-06, 11:42am

I can certainly look into it but for now that is all I would be doing with it : )

Cosmo

2006-01-06, 11:45am

I would suggest looking into the M-10. :D

Who makes that concentrator? And where can someone purchase one?

12879AlexM....
Check out "The Cookbook of Color Borosilicate Recipes" available in any store!

When is the next one (for GA colors) coming out?

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 11:50am

Chad, I can order the M-10 for you. It's $579 plus $40 flat rate shipping. :D

flamesofglass

2006-01-06, 11:52am

Under $650... Now you're talkin!

Cosmo

2006-01-06, 11:54am

Chad, I can order the M-10 for you. It's $579 plus $40 flat rate shipping. :D

Really? Hmm... now if I can just find one near me to try out.

When is the M-30 coming out? Any idea on pricing?

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 12:13pm

The M-30 is in the final stages of development. They are having the cases made, so after they have it put together, they will announce pricing. Until then, they aren't even giving us a good guess. It puts out 20LPM at 30 PSI and anything close to that has been at least $2k. It will come in below that and hopefully well below that, but I can't say for sure. ;)

I just talked to JC and she is running her Cuda on an M-20. She's super happy with that, I haven't personally tried it, but I will definitely do that after talking to her. She's super stoked... :D Her transition into boro has been so much fun to watch. She's having a little LE get together next weekend and she's got some Northstar on it's way for them to play with. Northstar is going to be getting really involved with bead makers in the near future. I am chatting with them about the possibilities and that's one of the reasons I'm so excited right now. It's definitely time for boro to shine... we've finally got the technology. :lol:

What troch are you wanting to run with the M-10? I can probably get it tested and give you a play by play if you don't have one close to try. Kristian at Generations has them as well. You're pretty close to him aren't you? If you are, feel free to support him and buy it there. He's a great guy! :D

flamesofglass

2006-01-06, 12:37pm

Would my Lynx work with an M-10 for Boro?

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 12:44pm

I haven't personally tested a Lynx on it, but I've heard they run it... I'll double check and make sure. :D

dogmaw

2006-01-06, 12:48pm

I have been moving toward boro because of the color, and the fact that I want to do sculpture and it is more forgiving for that. My colors aren't so great yet, and I'm going to have to find something quieter than the 8M with a premix tip. :lol:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 1:01pm

Yeah, premix is loud and really rough on color. I would suggest a Piranha or better yet for sculpture get a Cuda! They are super kind to colors and really affordable for the heat they put out. :D

The M-10 is probably not enough oomph for a Lynx to run wide open. The M-20 would be a better investment. It's $887, but put's out 10 LPM at 20 PSI. :D GTT's need higher pressure and are oxy hogs... but I love my Mirage. :love:

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-06, 1:07pm

I have a couple sample packs of boro to play with, one of them is Northstar, I don't know what the other is. I wanted to play mainly at sculpture with it. The biggest main reason why I haven't is scheduling. Right now for soft glass, I push a button and when I'm done for the day I push another button. To do boro with that kiln I'd have to RTFM again and it's written for a total tech-head which I am not.
It's my vague understanding that boro annealing temps are slightly higher right? ANd my soft glass schedule probably wouldn't work?

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 1:10pm

I soak my boro at about 1075 and ramp down slow (85 degrees per hour) to 950. Then a short 20 minute soak and off for beads and smaller stuff. What kind of controller is it? Maybe we can get you instructions in plain english... I'm not a tech head either. ;)

Anakin's Glass Eye

2006-01-06, 1:18pm

Brent,

Just to clear up some confusion. Maybe it's just me, but I wanted to lay a few things out and see if I'm correct.

ABR Imagery has a M-10 (10 LPM, 20 psi) for $800 and a M-5 (5 LPM, 10 psi) for $522.

Generations Glass has a P-20 (10 LPM, 20 psi) for $885 and a P-10 (5 LPM, 10 psi) for $575.

I'm guessing the M-10 is the same as the P-20 and the M-5 is the same as the P-10. They look like the same things.

Are we talking about the same things?

Brent, can you really get a 10 LPM machine for $500+ ?

And to get back to the original thread topic, I work with Boro mostly because it is very forgiving from a heat control perspective. It's so much easier to control and manipulate when I'm making a marble. I love the bold colors of Effetre but it's just so much harder to work with in marble making - but maybe it's just me. I love being able to spend 2-3 hours on a marble and not have to worry so much about it cracking into a hundred pieces. Doing any kind of off hand work is easier with boro for the same reasons, IMO. I also love the colors that can be achieved with boro. The effects of the saturated/striking colors are absolutely unique to Boro.

Hopefully next weekend I'll be able to hook my Lynx up to JCs 10 LPM concentrator. I wanna give it a try, again, before I decide what to buy.

OGSI also has another unit OG-20 coming out. I think it's a 10 LPM, 15 psi oxy generator, not concentrator, but it will probably be at least $2000.

Brad

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-06, 1:23pm

Thanks Brent! It's a West and I don't think plain english is an option. OK, maybe it's just me having blonde moments. I just remembered though if I want to do it (boro) I have another kiln with a SetPro that's easy for me to use, so I'll set it for 1075. Just that number is a huge help. Also if my son ever shows up today with a propane tank like he promised me I can fire up my Wildcat finally!!! Maybe for the virgin run I can melt some of the boro that's been staring at me. This could be fun...where is that kid????

Cosmo

2006-01-06, 1:24pm

What troch are you wanting to run with the M-10? I can probably get it tested and give you a play by play if you don't have one close to try. Kristian at Generations has them as well. You're pretty close to him aren't you? If you are, feel free to support him and buy it there. He's a great guy! :D

I'm actually thinking about our studio. We are going to be running a combination of torches. We are ordering Barracudas eventually, but for now we have 4 Minors. We may add 4 more for the time being until we can afford bigger torches. Or may get a few larger for now, or something.

We had looked into liquid oxygen which is still what we'll end up with when we get larger torches, but I'm trying to explore all my options right now.

larrybrickman

2006-01-06, 1:27pm

I really enjoy working with boro and wish I had more time to play with it but it's everything I can do to keep up with the soft glass part of my business. I think I'm really attracted to the muted, earthy colors and the more free form technics that I've done with it. My soft glass work is very structured and precise, with the boro I can really just let it go. I also blow Simax internal profile tubing into vessels and have had great sales of those products at bead shows. I also think it's much more challenging, stiffer, striking, and the equipment and glass is more expensive and perhaps that's why it's intimidating to the soft glass beadmakers. Hey, grab some clear and a sample pack and go for it!!!
Cheers, Larry

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 1:35pm

Brad, Generations is selling the M-10 and M-20. I'm not sure where the P-??? came from maybe you got 'em reversed... I haven't checked into what ABR has. The M-10 is a heck of a machine for under $600. It's bsaically the out put of two concentrators at a little higher PSI. The M-20 is about the same volume of output, but at 20 PSI. The M-30 is gonna kick some major butt with it's output and PSI. Hopefully the price too. We'll see. :D

Chad, if you are looking to run the studio minors, I would probably just hook them up to tanks. they are such a tiny torch and you are looking to upgrade to Cudas... why spend all that money now, when they prolly won't work for you in the future? Just my .02. I know you're like me and just trying to figure out the best possible route. :lol: It's a tough choice...

Cosmo

2006-01-06, 2:00pm

Chad, if you are looking to run the studio minors, I would probably just hook them up to tanks. they are such a tiny torch and you are looking to upgrade to Cudas... why spend all that money now, when they prolly won't work for you in the future? Just my .02. I know you're like me and just trying to figure out the best possible route. :lol: It's a tough choice...

Yeah, but I also have a studio at the house, so I can use it there too. I have so much stuff to decide on, who knows what I'll end up getting? It'll be a couple months before I'm ready to buy anything anyways, so I'll change my mind 60-70 times until then...

ksglass

2006-01-06, 2:20pm

I would like to know which one of the concentrators will run a Carlisle Wildcat? I recieved mine yesterday. It is a sweet little torch and so much hotter than the minor I was on. I bought it specifically for my boro beads, (no, they aren't big beads). Anyway, the settings on the torch according to the phamplet says 2-3 for the propane and 5-10 for the oxy. Would I be better going with the M-20, rather than the M-10, seems I would be squeaking by with the M-10....????

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 2:27pm

Elizabeth. The M-10 and the M-20 are about the same output on volume. The pressures are different. The M-20 just pushes hard, which is what some torches need (GTT especially). The number you need to know is how many LPM or LPH your torch consumes... which is liters per minute or liters per hour. Then you will know if the M-10 is enough. The M-10 does 10 LPM or 600 LPH. I hope this helps... it's a bit technical and I wish I knew what the wildcat specs were. It sounds like the M-10 will work, if it recomends 5-10 PSI. :D

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 2:28pm

Yeah, but I also have a studio at the house, so I can use it there too. I have so much stuff to decide on, who knows what I'll end up getting? It'll be a couple months before I'm ready to buy anything anyways, so I'll change my mind 60-70 times until then...

Only 60-70 times? I change my mind on what I want my Oxy supply to be at least twice a day... that's why I'm still on these friggin heavy tanks! :lol:

ksglass

2006-01-06, 2:41pm

thanks Brent, I have put in a call to Carlisle Machine Works asking for the technical specs on the Wildcat. I will post them here when I get a return call.

Elizabeth. The M-10 and the M-20 are about the same output on volume. The pressures are different. The M-20 just pushes hard, which is what some torches need (GTT especially). The number you need to know is how many LPM or LPH your torch consumes... which is liters per minute or liters per hour. Then you will know if the M-10 is enough. The M-10 does 10 LPM or 600 LPH. I hope this helps... it's a bit technical and I wish I knew what the wildcat specs were. It sounds like the M-10 will work, if it recomends 5-10 PSI. :D

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-06, 5:26pm

I don't use boro. I have a sample pak and clear and the last time I tried it, a long time ago, I got the brown poo over and over and over. It was frustrating for me. I think it intimidates me!
I have a Lynx and tanked 02.
Maybe I'll take a chance tomorrow ;)

Carrie

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 5:46pm

SuzyQ

2006-01-06, 5:53pm

I certainly love the colors I see in boro. I have never used boro because I didn't think I could get hot enough. I just hooked up a second concentrator to my minor, but would that be enough?

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-06, 5:55pm

Carrie... just work it hot... much hotter than you are used to with soft glass. Your flame should be a driving flame. Not soft and fluffy. It should say "I mean business!" :lol: If you have any specific questions or colors you don't know how to use, just post 'em here and I'll try to do my best. :D

LOL
I am going to tackle it tomorrow for sure now. Maybe I'll get mad and WTF 8-[ right?
What have I got to lose???

Carrie

Oh yeah, is there any color that is easier to 'see' results than another??? :roll:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 6:00pm

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 6:01pm

I certainly love the colors I see in boro. I have never used boro because I didn't think I could get hot enough. I just hooked up a second concentrator to my minor, but would that be enough?

It may be a little slow. The Minor has a pretty unorganized flame structure... but it's definitely doable. Just go for it and ask questions as you run into problems. I'd be happy to walk you through it. ;)

CarolinaDreamDesigns

2006-01-06, 6:13pm

I'm dabbling in boro with the Piranha now. Still trying to learn the torch! the boro frustrates me cause I want it to melt faster - and I was messing up mandrels - but then I got back to soft glass and I'm dropping it on the tabletop it gets so liquid so fast!! I seem to like the colors I get when encased in clear but my amber purples are staying kinda amber with tinges of more. I lust after the purples! Got some lovely shades of liver - and several of the colors I've tried are really dark so I guess I need to thin them out more. And I was annealing to 1050.

O yeah - trying off-mandrel - no one, I mean NO ONE will EVER see those disasters.

I also need to get a handle on what is reducing, neutral and oxidizing flames on Piranha.

:::sigh::: so much to learn - so little time - darn that pesky job!

:smile:

Martha

alexm

2006-01-06, 6:23pm

I certainly love the colors I see in boro. I have never used boro because I didn't think I could get hot enough. I just hooked up a second concentrator to my minor, but would that be enough?

I've done that, but I have to warn you, it's slow. A Bobcat or Lynx with 2 concentrators works way better, I know, I've done all 3 combinations.

KristyN

2006-01-06, 6:46pm

Oh Brent, good thread. I've worked soft glass for about 5 years, but absolutely love the different boro effect.....fantasy, ethreal gorgeous colors (esp. the purples).

This thread is great on timing. I use a minor torch and a concentrator. I have always felt that MY concentrator ran a little reducy, so things like rubinos would be a little muddy. However, the few boro beads I made after taking Lauri Copeland's class (last year?) did not take that long to make, but it wasn't as oxy rich as should be according to my test color of....geez, what was it...Amazon green that Henry Grimmet with GA suggests testing with.

My "inhibitor" is the annealing cycles (day commitment to boro) but more to the point....the basic need for more "go go juice" with oxy...thus my interest in all these higher powered oxy concentrators. I'll need to check those out.

Brent, what torch would you suggest if someone went up from a minor and was interested in boro beads and small sculpture? And choosing a higher oxy system of course.

Great thread! Elizabeth...I didn't know you got a new torch. Details!
Kristy
PS Brent, I LOVE your boro hearts...the colors. OMG. Serious gushing here. I could put one of those under my pillow for sure! I 'd never leave the studio if I made those.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 6:56pm

Great point about the annealing cycle. You really don't have to commit to a whole day of boro. If you start with boro, you can ramp down to 950 during lunch and just work soft glass after lunch. I've done that when I wanted to play with soft glass a little. ;)

I would suggest a Piranha and an M-10. It really does make for a great boro and soft glass combo. If I didn't ever go large on my lathe and need my Mirage, I would definitely have that set up for just beads and pendants. :love:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 6:58pm

It's amazon night for the test color... I believe. You can also test with Amber Purple and just see how fast the haze burns off. If it burns off fast, you've got an oxydized or neutral flame. If it builds up at all, you're reducing.

adovbs

2006-01-06, 7:27pm

I plan to do some boro when I get a new torch (Betta) - until then, it's awfully slow, but I can't help playing with it now and then. It's just too pretty! :-)

Maybe I'll have some good questions later this year, but thanks for the thread, Brent - I'll keep watching it and maybe learn something.

Teresa

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-06, 7:38pm

It's really not an accident that I started this thread. The equipment is finally available to work both boro and soft glass in a home studio economically. No more lugging tanks every week or buying really expensive equipment. Sure, it's more than just a soft glass set up... but the return on the investment is definitely there. AH doesn't make boro beads and it's certainly one way to get ahead of the game and to push your glass work to another level. ;) I know working both glasses teaches you things you never would have thought about only working one glass. I'm really excited about this opportunity for the lampworking community. It's gonna be cool. :D

kiko

2006-01-06, 9:37pm

Hey Brent,

Couldn't help myself, had to delurk and come clean about my dilema. I have been working soft glass since about 1996 and use a LOT of soft glass beads in my jewelry line. I've always felt that it could take a lifetime to learn all of the reactions and heat control with soda lime glass. Add to that fine silver and gold and copper, yum it's endless. Anyway, in October I took a class with Sally Prasch. We were pulling points and doing implosions etc. Holy crap, I fell in love with boro. It takes so much abuse. The colors are gorgeous. I ordered a bunch of tubing and lots of color from Generation Glass (sale!!!).
Love the ease of making hollow beads, vessels etc with the tubing! Slowly learning all of the gorgeous colors... I'm hooked. I use a Lynx with 2 concentrators and I can feel the need for more fire already. The Lynx is great for most things except melting in color quickly. That is sort of tedious... I'm thinking of moving up to a Phantom! Do you think I could run a Phantom on one of these new uber concentrators? That would be sweet. Thanks for your enthusiasm. I would love to see people pushing their stuff to a new level. If I see another flower bead with a frog on it I'm gonna Croak! (little joke). Thanks

adovbs

2006-01-06, 11:21pm

It's really not an accident that I started this thread. The equipment is finally available to work both boro and soft glass in a home studio economically. No more lugging tanks every week or buying really expensive equipment.

Yes, I expect my costs to be pretty low once I get a Betta and an oxycon. We are plumbing my "studio to be" downstairs for natural gas, since we already have it here at the house. Sure will be nice to have all the gas and oxy I need without ever having to run downtown to get filled tanks!

And yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right. Learning to work boro is one more thing that will help many of us stay ahead of the cheap imported bead sellers.

Teresa

Laurie L

2006-01-06, 11:40pm

KLittle

2006-01-07, 1:08am

If there were a teacher around these parts that used it I would LOVE - LOVE - LOVE to try boro....I love boro but its rather expensive to bring into Canada to experiment with. Boro was the main reason I got into lampworking...well that and because of Kim Miles flowers.

At one point someone was going to teach it but it never panned out.....smiley we need you over here just for a few days !!! Bring lots of glass and lots of patience.

Hey Laurie,

Lauri Copeland will be teaching at Red Deer this spring(May22-24)! I took her class last year and it really was a blast! Check into it if you are interested ... it is offered as a pre-conference workshop to the GAAC conference being held there.

Lauri's class was the perfect way to launch myself into a whole new love affair with glass!! Haven't even touched the soft stuff since!

Kari

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-07, 3:46am

Lauri Copeland is awesome. I need to get ahold of her and chat again. If you have her coming to any place you can get, take her class. ;)

If you have a teaching studio near by, just give them my info and have them call me. Have torch - will travel. :lol: My teaching schedule for 2006 isn't full quite yet.

I think the Betta is going to be a godsend for those people on NG. It's an awesome little bead torch that will definitely melt boro and cost pennies to run. It's going to make me wish I had NG.

Kiko, I hear you... people that haven't worked boro on a boro torch don't know what they are missing. It really is forgiving and takes a beating. No thermal shock when you put a rod into the flame... it's blow and go renegade style. You don't have to baby boro, you can smack it around and it just smiles back atcha. :D

Over the Moon

2006-01-07, 4:45am

If there were a teacher around these parts that used it I would LOVE - LOVE - LOVE to try boro....I love boro but its rather expensive to bring into Canada to experiment with.

Hi Laurie! Like Brent says...just go for it! I've been working with it for a couple of months...there's tons of great info on the GA and NS websites, as well as various forums on-line - certainly enough to get you started...As far as the expense - I live in Canada as well, and it's really not as bad as you may think...considering how little color you'll actually use for each bead/pendant/heart - whatever! Also, get lots of clear (it's super cheap), that way you can "experiment" with scultptual stuff, etc, and it'll cost you next to nothing!
For me, the best thing about boro is it's luminosity - I can, and do, sit and stare at the wonderment of it all...real magic! And I can't think of a better way to start my day than with some real cool kiln surprises!!!
I tried to come up with something negative to say, but cannot.
BTW, for now, I work with a Minor and tanked oxy - works a wee bit slower that soft glass, but so worth it!
Enjoy!
Val XOXO
P.S: As you can see in my "tiny-head", Teddy loves working it too! lol

Cindy2

2006-01-07, 5:46am

I also think it's much more challenging, stiffer, striking, and the equipment and glass is more expensive and perhaps that's why it's intimidating to the soft glass beadmakers.

Larry makes my point before I make it! :-) I've been playing with boro off and on for the past 2-3 years but really only dabble in it. I like the idea of boro for sculpture not beads. I like tubing for beads, though. So I have a stash but to do boro I really need to upgrade my set up and right now, I don't want to invest in a new torch and a new oxy generator and new ventilation. I have a minor and 2 concentrators so boro is very slow.

Also, when I try to explain to people that I don't think the glass moves in the same way as soft glass does, they look at me like I have 3 heads! All the general principles are the same yes, but the specifics are not.

I spent alot of time in the beginning working soft glass colors so that I know that Effetre black transparent will move in a certain direction when I heat it to an orange glow and that Effetre Ivory will move in a different direction when heated to the same color. I know where to hold which color in which part of the minor flame, etc. Boro moves in a different direction than the Effetre Black and it moves slower - oh and I have to add the heat it to white. So for beads and small off hand- like pendants, I would prefer to stick to soft glass.

Scuplture and tubing is the thing I want to do in boro. But I need more fire, more oxy and more ventilation and a whole 'nother set of glass!

Cindy

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-07, 6:02am

xtweeksx

2006-01-07, 6:27am

Okie pokies........

In my grand scheme of things, I intend to try my hand at Boro for sculpture etc.

At the moment i use my HH due to not having the right set up re: finished studio/safety etc.... that hopefully will all be sorted by March. Then, I shall be using my second hand Piranha with the intention of getting a Cuda at some point...

So, Ive been thinking that before going to expense of buying tanks an stuff and lugging them around, I will get a concentrator. So, first Q is, would it be possible for these M- 10 to be shipped to uk (soon, as Im in the market for it now in prep for March hehe)? Is it worth the cost of doing that? etc... (I have searched to see if they are available in the uk and I cant find them).

Or, alternatively.....would I be better off buying what I can in the uk? (suppose only I can decide that.stupid question lol)

I suppose Im one of these people who looks at all the options of equipment available that suits my future needs. Rather than buy something that will *do* for now and I end up regretting or wasting my money.

Plus, *if* by chance I make *that* huge mistake I can always sell it and probably cover my costs!

Im lucky enough not have invested in too much equipment, I feel that I would rather get the equipment that does *the job* of what I want use it for in the future now rather than keep upgrading all the time!

I dont intend to give up glass. My paid work does intend on giving me up later this year though lol. So when that happens I shall be taking the opportunity to *play with glass* on a more permanent basis.

Also, ventilation...... with Boro, do you need anything different to soft glass? (something else Im thinking about sorting now).

Probably the other issue I would have in the uk is supplies of Boro....... I think one place does it! An uk peeps know?

Ok Ive waffled on an on........sorry! hehe

Cheers Jenny

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-07, 6:35am

Jenny, the units could be shipped, but I don't know how much it would be. They aren't terribly heavy. Just about the same as a medical concentrator. They are in the same case with the exception of the M-30... it's got a custom case.

The other question I can answer is ventilation... it's more important with boro, because you are working hotter and vaporizing more metals and such. You should have adequate ventilation with both glasses, but boro will harm you faster if you don't. Does that make sense? It's like a light cigarette versus a nonfilter. They'll both cause damage, but one is worse. So, everybody that has good enough ventilation to lampwork, can work boro too. If you're skimping, stop it. ;)

xtweeksx

2006-01-07, 6:46am

Thanks for your answer MrS...

Ventiltation is something Im not going to scimp on.....Im already looking at what I need and whats available here. I did wonder if you needed something a little more *hardcore* for Boro lol

Do you have a website/name/contact no. for M-10 so I can enquire about shipping please? The M-10 sounds okie dokies to me!

Cheers Jenny

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-07, 6:48am

You can contact Generations glass, Art Glass House or I can look into it for you. :D

xtweeksx

2006-01-07, 6:53am

Oh MrS, if you could look into it for me.....that would be super duper! Ta........

Jenny:razz:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-07, 8:08am

PM me your shipping info and I'll see what I can put together. :D

xtweeksx

2006-01-07, 8:49am

:grin: done :grin:

Cindy2

2006-01-08, 5:39am

Cindy, I think you hit on a good point... it is different. It definitely doesn't move as fast as soft glass in the same flame... but if you work soft glass in a boro flame, you run into the same problems. It's all about heat control and having the right tools for the job. While boro requires more heat to move at a good beadmaking pace, it pretty much stops moving when you pull it out of the flame. That's something I really had to get used to with soft glass (I dropped glass all over my table for a while :lol: )... once soft glass is liquid, it stays liquid much longer. With boro, once the heat is removed, it stiffens up really quickly. This ability to work in slower motion, lends to a lot more control. I imagine what ever glass you learned with, you will have some adjusting when you try the other. Both hold some really insightful lesson about the other glass. I find the similarities far outweigh the differences in the long run. Every little trick or technique can be applied somewhere in working the other glass.

Thanks for validating my point and not looking at me like I have 3 heads! :-) You make a good point about boro - how it stiffens up immediately when it's out of the flame! Arghhhh - that's the thing I think for me with it - so much of the art of soft glass is working with it after it's out of the flame because it's holding that heat and you're managing the heat.

Like you said, there is a learning curve and I'm wanting to work with boro tubing (call me sick but I LOVE to pull points! :-) It's like pulling stringer in soft glass :-) It's not the color of boro I like because that's a whole 'nother issue - it's what you can do with it!

My wish list fund is for an oxy generator - if there will be an oxycon that can put out the heat I need for a bigger torch (I'm thinking piranah or barracuda) then I'm in! Tell me where, when and if it's $600.00 I'm halfway there in savings!! :-)

Good thread (hope I can find it again! ;-)
Cindy

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-08, 5:49am

I just got a PM from somebody that is a bit frustrated... yep, we've all been there. Boro striking colors are not WYSISYG... it can be slightly frustrating when you are stating out, but oh so rewarding when you get it down. :D

Anyway, she had a day with boro yesterday and she used my kiln schedule. I'll add this before I mess up any more beads with my advise. This schedule is for just about any color other than rubies. Depending on your kiln, this may be too hot and too long of a soak. You may get liver. Yuk. Stick with the amber purple family of striking colors. You can mix it with blues, whites, any of the silver colors... but keep ruby out of your mix for now. That's a whole other beast. Once you figure out where your kiln strikes the amber purple family, we can talk about ruby. If you've just gotta do ruby right now, do it at the end of your soak period. It strikes really fast and goes to poop soon after. If you want to post pics of your bad batches, we'll try to help you figure out what went wrong... and if you want to post pics of your successes, we'll pick out what went right. That way we all learn this striking stuff together. :love:

suzanne

2006-01-08, 6:26am

Nice thread!

I just received my first boro last week and I am hooked! I am working on a Minor with one concentrator and the stuff is no harder to melt then a thick rod of lauscha. I do have a Lynx comming in, and two extra concentrators, so I can not wait to hook that baby up! I have not yet gotten the deep rich pinks and purples, but I think ( this might sound stupid but moretti pinks need lots and lots of oxy, I figured boro pinks behave the same) when I get my new torch and concentrators it will do just fine.

I am still playing a lot ( and twisting every single color together to see what happends) but I love the control I have of the glass. I even tried Doug Remschneiders way of making twisties with moretti and I'll be damned!! It works! I have been working with soft glass for a year now and have not been able to make a decent twistie untill last week.

There is still a lot for me to learn and discover with moretti but I am definetly in Love with boro. I even wish I had two kilns because I am having a hard time choosing wich project I will start today:D

suzanne

2006-01-08, 6:29am

Amber Purple or Double amber purple... work it til it goes clear... let it cool below glow and then either kiln strike it at about 1075 for a while or flash it in the back of the flame.... the color should POP! :D

See... My bead does not go clear , the minor and one concentrator just aint hot enough for those deep purples. I did get a fab purple when I made an unencased double amber purple bead, I only flashed it through the flame and it did pop. I guess the clear on top is just a bit too much to handle for my poor minor ( the thing looks like a blowtorch whenever I work boro, I feel really cool and tough when making boro beads:D)

CarolinaDreamDesigns

2006-01-08, 7:08am

I've been playing with the unlabeled rods and got some lovely livers. I also got a beautiful ruby red that looked like clear until it came out of the kiln. I was testing colors by trying to make a solid color bead and then making one by swiping the color in clear encased. I don't like most of the solids. The amber purple I did solid ended up with creamy stripes with purple stripes as well but it stayed a beautiful amber with *possible* purple tones in the clear. I gotta get a handle on the heat and flames on this Piranha and take the time to play.

I'm NOT sure anyone did me a favor by introducing me to boro ......

:grin: :twisted:

Martha

flamesofglass

2006-01-08, 9:31am

Mr. S - what are your thoughts on a first attempt at Boro?

Maybe your thoughts on some initial colors that would be good for beginners. Is there something that would be considered easier when it comes to being successful in achieving nice color. It seems as though some have mentioned not being able to get any great colors to begin with.

From some of your comments it seems as though the torch and set-up are a major factor in how you achieve your desired color, so I'm wondering if there is a certain color that is more forgiving regardless of set-up? I Love getting positive feedback right off the bat :grin:

Thanks for all the great info.

Robert

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-08, 9:44am

Robert... Cobalt and some frit encased in clear... super duper easy. Blue moon, caramel, amber purple are some good frits to start with. Not a whole lot of striking involved. You basically get a reaction from the metals kind of fuming itself. No matter when or where you start to strike colors, you're gonna have a learning process. It just takes a little time. Lori Robbins has a great book for frit beads as mentioned earlier. It involves striking and a lot of color reactions. It's a good place to start for semi instant results. :love:

alexm

2006-01-08, 11:41am

Brent, are you going to be teaching in the San Francisco Bay Area any time soon?

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-08, 4:36pm

Alex... I don't have any plans as of now. If you have any teaching studios in mind, PM me the info and I'll see what I can do to get the ball rolling. I'd love to come out there. I have a fear of California... well, any where west of the San Andreas really. ;) I've been on the fault line, but never past it. I know, I'm weird. I've heard it all before, but in my opinion, land should almost be free out there. :lol:

alexm

2006-01-08, 6:44pm

wildfirelauri

2006-01-09, 1:09am

First of all, thanks for the kind words. It is VERY much appreciated.

Boro....sigh....I love it, occasionally hate it, but I am always captivated by its' magical qualities. Most of my beads begin with a small clear base I add color over this and finish with a clear encasement. Encasing will magnify many of the colors while helping keep your cost down. Also, keep in mind what we are now paying for many of the hand pulled colors and odd lots in the soft glass palette.

I have an Airstep generator that will run the Lynx part of my Phantom. It's acceptable for melting boro, but doesn't give me the oooomph I prefer. I keep tanks on hand for boro and use the generator for soft glass. I'm anxious to hear more about the new systems that are in the works.

The popularity of boro has had a gimongis growth over the last five years. (gimongis is lots, in case you weren't sure.) In addition, the range of colors we have available are truly special. I continue to use soft glass about half of the time. When melting boro, I find that I am more relaxed as the glass is easier to control and more forgiving. When starting out, I think the sample packs are a great option to find which colors work with your setup. There are so many variables that will affect the color: type of torch, fuel pressures, flame environment, cooling and re-heating cycles in the flame, kiln settings, etc. Do keep in mind that if you plan to work with boro on a regular basis, you need to check into eye protection that is specifically rated for boro use. At the very least, add a shade 5, clip on lense over your current pair of glasses. (If you go this route, the welding shop plastic clip-ons will need to be replaced every six months.) After writing this, I think I need a torch fix. :happy:

6738
13144

KLittle

2006-01-09, 2:15am

Oh Lauri .... YUM!!! Those colors are divine!!

(BTW I sent you an email ... :wink:)

Kari

CarolinaDreamDesigns

2006-01-09, 5:31am

yummmmmmmmmm is right - in fact, I think you posted that picture before and I told you I lusted after them! ;-)

I'm trying to learn some off-mandrel work - maybe 4-5 pendants tries. Sad, really REALLY sad. So then I think - well, I'll just stick to beads. And THEN the mandrels get all glowing and the bead release starts to corrode (HD Foster Fire) and then I think *(^$#$&*_&%^#$&^, back to soft!

Piranha with Devilbiss 505 concentrator. Any suggestions to avoid disaster?

Martha <<--trying

lilypond bead designs

2006-01-09, 5:36am

Very timely, Mr. Smiley! I got a new torch for Christmas and I have a Northstar sample pack and a pound of clear. I have made a few boro poop beads. The thing I noticed most is that it doesn't melt into itself it kind of sinks. Is that what it is suppose to do? I would LOVE to see more tutorials on boro. I didn't realize that there were none til I got this glass and went looking.

I will try the cobalt, frit, clear combo and see what that makes.

Shelley

2006-01-09, 6:29am

I'd love to give it a go... but what does one do when in Australia? You might be able to ship one of those new concentrators over here...but what about the power difference? (we run on 240v). Also, no suppliers here (I don't think anyway) and shipping glass from o/s get reeealll expensive. Not sure there is any real solution there.... lol..
btw.. Mr Smiley, I gave in and bought one of your hearts the other day, can't wait for it to get here...

Shelley
Sydney, Australia

Cosmo

2006-01-09, 6:40am

Just to add to what Brent said earlier...

Blue Moon is one of my favorite boro glass colors. It's easy to get very consistent results with it, and you can get a totally different look by encasing it or leaving it exposed. I'll have to dig up some photos of some pieces I did with Blue Moon.

Another favorite is Triple Passion (very similar to Amber Purple, just made by Glass Alchemy instead of Northstar). You have to watch your flame chemistry or it reduces, but other than that it's another one that is easy to get nice colors out of.

I also recommend any of the Chameleon colors by GA. I have a lot more experience with GA colors than I do with NS, which is why I recommend them.

One of my newest favorites is Elvis. I'm not sure who makes it. It's a self-striking red that comes out really nice and red. I only had a few samples. I'm waiting on my rods to come in.

Another thing to add... when you are working with boro, clear is your new best friend. I buy 5 times as much clear as I do color, and I use clear in most everything I make, even if you can't see it. A lot of my larger marbles are about 80% clear. If you are making a cane, I make the cane on clear, so you hardly use any color. Some of my larger beads are a base of clear with color over top of it.

dogmaw

2006-01-09, 7:03am

Chad, I unfortunately discovered that this past week. :lol: I have a ton of colors, and am out of clear!

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-09, 7:09am

Shelley... there is a supplier over there working on this problem. You will have access to the equipment and supplies very soon. I should also be coming over in about a year to teach. I have to wait until the equipment is available to you guys, but it's coming. People are working on it. :love:

Chad, Great point about clear. Clear is super cheap in boro and we use a LOT of it. The colors are expensive, but we use less than most soft glass folks. I'll bet it is closer to evening out than I thought. :D Blue moon rocks! It's one of my favorites too. I've got to get you some NS to play with... ;)

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-09, 8:12am

OK, don't laugh toooo much. Let's see, the top of this is double amber green with clear on top, the top half of the vessel is some kind of pinkish bubbly stuff, that was getting really hot so the rest is mystery adventurine with a couple stripes of clear and clear on the end. Well, it WAS a sample pack.;-)

http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/1158394/8866406/125092180.jpg

Anyway, I had to do this on the mini-cc with 2 oxycons and ng. It seemed to work pretty well! Like working with bread dough instead of pancake batter if that makes sense at all.

Still didn't get the Wildcat functional, long dramatic story. Wanna hear it? OK, it might serve as a what-NOT-to do lesson for somebody else.
My propane regulator is a one gauge jobbie. I've never worked with this before and won't be working with it again, it's goin' down. I wasn't sure how to gauge the psi from it, so called my son who has taken some welding classes. So, dummy me has this torch set directly across from my mini-cc that I'm working on at the moment. Now, I had tried to get the torch working previously and left the propane knob on the torch open to bleed the lines, shut off the tank and regulator and forgot about it. So, son comes here, goes over to the propane tank and turns it on without checking everything else, (my fault I guess, but he could have freaking said something), while I've got the mini on directly across from the Wildcat. All of a sudden a 3 foot flame shoots over my head. Well, not quite all the way over as soon enough I smell burning hair. It could have been much worse, like crispy critter time, but I just lost some fuzz on top. He felt really bad and vowed to never 'help' me again.

Eeeeeenyway, the boro was very nice to work texture-wise, but it'll take a long while I think to get good colors.

Cosmo

2006-01-09, 9:27am

Chad, Great point about clear. Clear is super cheap in boro and we use a LOT of it. The colors are expensive, but we use less than most soft glass folks. I'll bet it is closer to evening out than I thought. :D Blue moon rocks! It's one of my favorites too. I've got to get you some NS to play with... ;)

I've got those rods I bought from you a while back, but they aren't labeled, so I don't know which is which. There is a nice teal blue/green that I got from you that I'm using a lot of. It's the teal color on this marble:

http://cosmoglassworks.com/marbles/gold-dot-vortex.jpg

It works really nice. Doesn't seem to mind differing flame atmospheres or anything. I just don't know what it is. Any idea?

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-09, 9:29am

Rebecca, that is a great start! Much better than most. Sorry about the hair. Great reminder for people to check and recheck when working with combustibles. I'm glad you weren't hurt. Let us know when you get into it more and we'll get the color thing worked out for ya. ;)

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-09, 9:31am

Chad,,, that's a good question. Can you snap a picture of it in rod form with the end melted a bit. ;) That would help narrow it down. It looks nice and I can see why you would want more. :D

Cosmo

2006-01-09, 10:16am

Chad,,, that's a good question. Can you snap a picture of it in rod form with the end melted a bit. ;) That would help narrow it down. It looks nice and I can see why you would want more. :D

I think so. I'm not sure I have any left. I'll check tonight. I do know that the melted end looks exactly the same as the rest of the rod.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-09, 10:59am

Well, then just a pic of the rod will do. I looked similar to peacock chamelian to me in the pics, but that has metal in it and will fume. There was also some experimental NS called tidal wave, but that didn't always play nice without being encased. When you bought it from me, did you buy shorts, mixed 2 pound bundle or did I hand pick you a selection. My memory is crap, so the more info I have, the easier it will be to kick it in gear. :D

Cosmo

2006-01-09, 11:14am

I bought the full rods. I'll see if I can find some tonight to take pics of. I do know these rods weren't really round. They were more oval shaped, if that helps.

It actually does look very similar to the Peacock Chameleon rods I have, but like you said, it doesn't work the same in the flame.

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-10, 11:24am

Cosmo

2006-01-10, 11:30am

Ok I got some COOL COLORS, for me that is!, from the Double Amber Purple.
I know I know, where is the pic? I am working on it.
I am excited now, yippee!
I did order some frit yesterday, so I will try that when it comes in. I bought what was suggested earlier in this thread.
Ok another question or two:
What other colors do you have tips for? I have a sample pak of both NS and GA.
Any others to avoid beside the Ruby?
More tips please :)

Thank you!
Carrie

I wouldn't say avoid the Ruby. It just needs to be put in the kiln at a lower temperature. I have best results heating Ruby in the flame until it goes clear, letting it cool, and then putting it into the kiln at 1000 degrees for about 1/2 hour. It will develop the red color on its own.

When you start working with GA Crayon colors, work them cooler than normal, or encase them, or both. Otherwise they will boil. Once they boil, I have never had any luck heating them back up smoothly.

I would visit www.northstarglassworks.com and www.glassalchemyarts.com. Both companies have good tips for working their color on their sites. One thing you need to learn right off the bat is what is a "neutral" flame on your torch. If you got a rod of GA Amazon Night you can use that to test. Turn your torch on and heat the rod until it goes round on the tip. Then take it out and let it cool. If the rod is the same color after heating as it is when it was cool, your flame is neutral.

What other colors did you get in the sample packs? I have some experience with most all the GA colors (although I would by no means consider myself an expert) so let me know what you have and I'll let you know what I know about them. I'm sure Brent would do the same for the NS colors.

Cosmo

2006-01-10, 11:33am

Oh, and Brent, here is that rod I was talking about. It's a little bit darker than this in person. You can see it's not really round, if that helps.

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-10, 11:45am

Cosmo,
Neutral flame, is this where I want to work most/all of the time?

Thank you so much for responding.

Carrie

Cosmo

2006-01-10, 11:56am

Not necessarily. Some colors you want an oxidizing flame, some you want a reducing. But, it's necessary to know so that you can go from there. A lot of times I'll construct a piece with a neutral flame, and switch to oxidizing or reducing to get certain colors. Some colors I use an oxidizing flame for the entire piece.

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-10, 12:02pm

OK thanks, I believe I know when I have a neutral flame, will double check w/ your suggestion when I go back down to the shop.
I'll do a quick scan of the colors that came in my sample paks!
Carrie

Cosmo

2006-01-10, 12:29pm

I thought I knew too. What I had thought was a "neutral" flame wasn't really neutral, which explained why I couldn't get certain colors from certain rods. Did some experimenting, and now I can get the colors I'm looking for.

I still keep some Amazon Night near my torch and check my settings periodically, especially when I get a new tank of propane or oxygen.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-10, 1:33pm

Chad, looks like a NS experimental called Tidal Wave... enjoy it, because if that's it, it's all gone. I have one stick left. ;) There was a bunch of odd lot colors in that bundle I sent out. I should have held on to them huh. :lol:

Cosmo

2006-01-10, 1:42pm

Drat. I really like it. I'm going to post on a couple boards and see if anyone has any they want to part with...

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-10, 2:14pm

. :D GTT's need higher pressure and are oxy hogs... but I love my Mirage. :love:

Why did you pick the Mirage?
What did you start out on and how was your progression to this torch?
I've read people are happy w/ the Cuda, what other torches are better for Boro?

Carrie

Cosmo

2006-01-10, 2:19pm

In my limited experience with GTT torches, I have noticed that a GTT will out perform any other torch of the same size. They get hotter, and the heat seems to penetrate into the glass faster than other torches.

I got to work on both a GTT Phantom and a Bethlehem Barracuda recently. They are about the same size, but the Phantom heated the work up to where it got all loose and drippy much quicker. The Barracuda seemed to heat a larger area, but took longer for the heat to penetrate.

Having said that, I'm still getting a Barracuda. I just can't justify the extra cash (plus the fact that you have to wait months) to buy a Phantom.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-10, 2:41pm

I started on a Beth PM2D and Carlisle CC. I was doing mostly larger lathe work and have several hand torches as well. I got my Mirage and sold both of my other two big torches without hesitation. It just suited the type of work I was doing at the time. I use the center fire for my jewelry, so I'm basically just running a Lynx most of the time for pendants. I've also worked on the Cuda and the Piranha... love them too. They don't have the super fast penetrating heat the GTT's have, but they are not slow by any means. The GTT's are just that fast. They also suck down at least twice the oxy, so you definitely have to pay to play. I suggest the cudas all the time. It's a great soft glass torch... it's a great boro torch... and the fuel consumption is awesome. I'd work on a cuda in a heartbeat. :D As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't buy anything except GTT or Bethlehem. National makes a cheap entry level product, but it's like a Yugo... you get what you pay for. Nothing against them, they work, I just won't own one. National makes a good premix work horse hand torch, but I hate their bench torch... I think it's the 8M. I owned one and all I can say is :P . :lol: I fired it up one time and knew it wasn't for me. It may be great for some things, but definitely not what I do. The mini CC is still a Carlisle, so it's not for me either. Nothing against Carlisle and the people who run them, but the carbon build up and spitting of crap on my work got old really really fast. That's my personal torch review. I haven't found "the" perfect torch yet, but I know they'll develope one in time. ;)

Heidi von Frozenfyre

2006-01-10, 3:37pm

I really want to give up soft glass all together. Really tired of it - so I'm taking it to Chicago for my class and see if I can unload it. I have quite possibly 600 - 800 pounds.

My Mirage gobbles up soft glass. Even if I use the Lynx innerfire - it just eats it up. So my Torch doesn't like it at all... it likes the flavor of boro.

I agree with most statements in this topic - but I'm going to add something else :)

My Aloe Vera plant is getting huge.

I haven't had a burn EVER with boro. Soft glass.. pop pop OWCH!
No blisters, no scabs no owies no holes in your shirts.

My work table stays nice and clean no little broken pop-offs.

Love the colors - love the stiking colors the bestest.

and Ditto.... everything else.

But best of all... if I hadn't started working with boro... I never would have found my bestest buddy Brentielicious von Graberglassen.

Heidi

DesertDreamer

2006-01-11, 7:44am

I keep meaning to post to this thread and keep getting distracted.

I'm a glass ho, it's that simple. I bounce around from Moretti, to Gaffer (and all it's leetle friends, like Uroboros), to boro. I gave up on Bullseye because I really like hot colors and they don't (or didn't, I think they're finally coming around) have many rods in hot transparents and I don't like working with cut strips, and don't want to waste time pulling strips into rods.

I like all of the glasses for different reasons. They each have their own special qualities....Moretti for interactive reactions, Gaffer for ethereal, wispy effects, and boro for vividness. There are things I can do with each kind of glass that just don't seem to happen with the others, and I don't want to give up one for the other. I suppose if someone forced me, I would give up Moretti first, but it wouldn't be willingly. However, these days I find myself enthralled with Gaffer more than anything else.

BUT.....what's my "museum piece" made of (the piece that got into Trajectories)????? BORO!!!! And I love making boro flutters! (My flutter shape seems to be the one thing that crosses all the glass flavors for me.) They're more of a challenge, I can't get the extreme edges I can with softer glass, but wow are they fun.

So, like I said. I'm a glass ho. :-D

P.S. I'm making my Tucson shopping list.....and the only rod on it is boro!!!! Gotta get me some pomegranate and persimmon!

bclogan

2006-01-11, 8:22am

OK. After reading this thread I'm definately intrigued.

I'm working on a Minor with an oxycon and NG. From the sounds of it, that's not going to work. My oxycon runs a real "reducing-ish" flame, so I doubt that I could get enough O2 out of it for a good oxidizing flame.

Right now I just can't afford to upgrade, but what should I be thinking of upgrading to in the future? Since I'm using NG, would the Betta be the best option? And a new oxycon to go with it .... <heavy sigh>

Boy, now I wish I had bought one of your packs of shorts....

And where can I get this cheap clear Boro? Our only local shop (Delphi) is not cheap! I paid almost $5 for one rod of clear to use as punties. Of course, it was a looooooong rod, but still. I didn't think that was cheap.

EDITED to add:

And Heidi - you can just bring that glass a little farther to Mi and unload it at my house...! LOL!

Cosmo

2006-01-11, 9:03am

Okay... since we're on the subject of boro...

Brent, have you (or anyone else) used much boro dichroic? I'm getting ready to buy some, and the place I buy from carries Dichroic Alchemy. They have 4 different lines of dichro - http://www.mountainglassarts.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.25/.f - and I'm not sure what the real difference is, or if there is any. I'm looking for something to put inside vortex marbles, so I'm not sure which one to pick.

Heidi von Frozenfyre

2006-01-11, 11:58am

I purchase dichro (boro) scrap from ABR. LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT! and a little goes a long way. http://www.frozenfyrebeads.com/ebay/105c.jpg *edit* Anything by Coating By Sandburg (CBS) is fabulous. I will never use another brand. The cheaper brands just burn off.

Heidi von Frozenfyre

2006-01-11, 12:06pm

I wanted to show off a couple perfume bottles that I made with boro that were on my exhibit in Prague, Czech Republic at the Museum of Decorative Arts. They both sold on eBay last week :(

http://www.frozenfyrebeads.com/ebay/88a.jpg
For this one the point was to use new materials but implement old handtool techniques - so the sterling was all done by hand with no modern power tools. Those are oplas areound the belt.

http://www.frozenfyrebeads.com/ebay/87b.jpg
This one is "Tibet" and Terri-S from LE purchased it :)

DBN Designs

2006-01-11, 1:37pm

I keep getting excited about boro and then try using my red max and minor and just get fustrated (using tanks for oxy).

Thinking maybe I shud just give up till I can afford a better torch?

Thanks for such a good thread.. still wanna go home and play with boro

:confused:

Dan

Cosmo

2006-01-11, 1:42pm

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-11, 2:02pm

Chad, Dichro Alchemy is great stuff. Better than CBS- sorry Heidipop, but it's true. I never thought I'd say that either. CBS still rocks, but DA has some really nifty stuff that beaks up in lines. Google them and find their website. The owner is super nice. If all else fails, give him a call. You may want to call and see if they have any scrap or if he can give you some guidance. :D

DesertDreamer

2006-01-11, 2:14pm

Better torch? Why?

I use a MidRange and have no problem. What is the problem you are having with your torch?

What Chad said! I have a MidRange, too and it's quite satisfactory. And I have a serious case of torch lust for the Red Max, which I've gotten to use at the Mesa Arts Center several times. It ROCKS with boro. Eager to hear what the trouble is.

DesertDreamer

2006-01-11, 2:17pm

Heidi, those are gorgeous!!!!!! The metalwork is stunning.

Brent, does the DA dichro need to be coated? I'm sooo lazy that's one reason I haven't jumped into dichro with boro (despite having several ounces of CBS scraps stashed away).

Cosmo

2006-01-11, 2:21pm

What Chad said! I have a MidRange, too and it's quite satisfactory. And I have a serious case of torch lust for the Red Max, which I've gotten to use at the Mesa Arts Center several times. It ROCKS with boro. Eager to hear what the trouble is.

I'm actually getting ready to order the Red Max conversion kit for my torch. It's about $199, and it converts a MidRange or Major to a Red Max. My oxygen supplier is going to love me now...

Heidi, those are gorgeous!!!!!! The metalwork is stunning.

Brent, does the DA dichro need to be coated? I'm sooo lazy that's one reason I haven't jumped into dichro with boro (despite having several ounces of CBS scraps stashed away).

Depends on who you talk to. Some people say you only heat the non-coated side when working it. Milon Townsend says to anneal the dichroic before using it, and then he heats the coated side.

I went ahead and ordered some random pieces today, so hopefully soon I'll have some first hand experience with it.

DesertDreamer

2006-01-11, 3:29pm

Oh Chad, you're gonna have fun! I'd get the conversion in a heartbeat if I didn't have to deal with low pressure NG (and I'm NOT going back to propane!) Maybe someday when I can afford the gas booster.....

Just Nancy

2006-01-11, 4:53pm

I'm going to read the other replies later so I may be duplicating others.

Why no boro? Yet?

No good concept of what I can do with it. The little I've tried (ornaments from tubing) don't do anything on my bobcat. And cost. I thinking I'll need a different torch, more oxygen, and then all the glass. Oh and not knowing what to do about annealing. (I said no good concept of what to do with it or where to start. I meant it. ;) )

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-11, 5:09pm

I haven't tried annealing it first myself yet. I did try some preannealed strips a long time ago. I was so new, I burnt the crap out of it too. It's basically about heat control. You can get the glass hot enough to manipulate dichro without burning it... but it's a very fine line if it's not encased. ;)

Firelilly

2006-01-12, 5:59am

Cindy, I think you hit on a good point... it is different. It definitely doesn't move as fast as soft glass in the same flame... but if you work soft glass in a boro flame, you run into the same problems. It's all about heat control and having the right tools for the job. While boro requires more heat to move at a good beadmaking pace, it pretty much stops moving when you pull it out of the flame. That's something I really had to get used to with soft glass (I dropped glass all over my table for a while :lol: )... once soft glass is liquid, it stays liquid much longer. With boro, once the heat is removed, it stiffens up really quickly. This ability to work in slower motion, lends to a lot more control. I imagine what ever glass you learned with, you will have some adjusting when you try the other. Both hold some really insightful lesson about the other glass. I find the similarities far outweigh the differences in the long run. Every little trick or technique can be applied somewhere in working the other glass.

So if you're a newb, just starting to melt glass, do you think it's a bad idea to start working with both types of glass at the start? Do you think the differences in working with the two would make it too confusing? Would it be better to start out with soft glass and get to know what dance it does in the flame, and then learn a different dance later with boro? It's seems like getting to know the flame for both types of glass might be too much to bite off all at once. But then again, I'm a bear of very little brain. What might be difficult for me might be easy peasy for someone else just starting out. :geek:

I will hopefully be doing a few videos soon and I am expanding into teaching around at different studios. I think a video would be better than a book... since boro really requires the different flame atmospheres and that would be easier to show in full motion.
Alright! *taps on her watch* Hurry up then! Times'a wastin'!

Loving this thread! Thanks Mr. S. and thanks to all who've contributed.

Lil

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-12, 6:06am

I'm not sure how to answer your question about new people working both types. What may work for somebody may not for somebody else. I would rather teach boro to new people... just because it moves slower and doesn't get out of control liquidy. The striking colors are a bit more to understand than with soft glass... but there are a bunch of really nice boro colors that you don't have to strike. If you do work with both glasses, be certain NOT to mix them up. It's a real pain to sort out, especially if you don't know how to do it. I'd say to get a boro sample pack and go for it! The new NS smaple packs will have some clear in them shortly. Yep, just one of the improvements we're making for beaders to try boro easier. ;)

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-12, 6:25am

Just a side note: I ordered some clip ons, level 5, for my regular torching glasses. My eyes were bothering me.........so.......
I will be taking a break from the boro until they come in.

Glad you started this thread, I am excited about boro again.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far, and hopefully more will be revealed.

Cosmo

2006-01-12, 6:37am

So if you're a newb, just starting to melt glass, do you think it's a bad idea to start working with both types of glass at the start? Do you think the differences in working with the two would make it too confusing? Would it be better to start out with soft glass and get to know what dance it does in the flame, and then learn a different dance later with boro? It's seems like getting to know the flame for both types of glass might be too much to bite off all at once. But then again, I'm a bear of very little brain. What might be difficult for me might be easy peasy for someone else just starting out. :geek:

Well, I taught a new lampworker the other day using only boro. He wanted to make pendants and marbles, so it would have been a waste to start him off with soft glass. However, he went to school to do neon signs, so he was already somewhat familiar with glass and working with flame.

Having said that, I don't see any specific reason not to practice with boro. But, it does work differently than soft glass, and it's trickier to get certain colors, so it would be easier to get discouraged.

I do teach beginners in soft glass for two reasons: First, it's cheaper to buy, so it doesn't cost as much. Second, it doesn't require nearly as much heat, so it's more user-friendly for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience.

It won't hurt to try it. As a beginner, torch time is torch time. I would suggest just buying some clear boro and playing with that for the time being. It melts a little faster than colors, and flame atmosphere doesn't effect it.

Just a side note: I ordered some clip ons, level 5, for my regular torching glasses. My eyes were bothering me.........so.......
I will be taking a break from the boro until they come in.

Glad you started this thread, I am excited about boro again.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far, and hopefully more will be revealed.

That's another good point. Working with boro requires more eye protection than working with soft glass. You need to get some glasses made for boro work.

River Horse Studio

2006-01-12, 7:46am

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-12, 8:33am

What is the best boro black to use for really, really black? NS has like 3 different ones, Ninja, Midnight and...I forgot. Also, what 3 colors could you not live without? I'm going to call in an order today for black, clear and more clear and a few colors and would really appreciate some suggestions!

Cosmo

2006-01-12, 8:46am

Ok....

I have a question.... When I am working with just clear Boro, I like to just use my dids and not my boro lenses. I find that its just easier to see. I have shade 5 and that might just be a little too dark. Is it ok to just use your didys if you are only using clear?

I would use at least shade 3 with any boro. But you should probably ask Mike Aurelius for sure on that.

What is the best boro black to use for really, really black? NS has like 3 different ones, Ninja, Midnight and...I forgot. Also, what 3 colors could you not live without? I'm going to call in an order today for black, clear and more clear and a few colors and would really appreciate some suggestions!

I like GA Black Violet or NS Onyx for black. Onyx is really a "black", where Black Violet is a dark purple. Onyx can boil if you overheat it. Black Violet is more resistent to boiling. GA Cobalt 5 or 6 is also a good substitute for black and won't boil, but it will reduce.

The colors I use most in boro are black, NS Blue Moon, GA Triple Passion, and Elvis. I also am really fond of GA Solara, NS Multi, and GA Silver Strike 5.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-12, 8:55am

I like Blue moon, AP or DAP, and a cobalt if I only could get 3 colors. Ding dang it, I would hate that... there are so many nice ones. I use onyx for black. It's a super duper saturated green based black.

I wear dids all the time... ok, well not all the time, some times I have a shade 3, but when I'm working small I do. Sorry Mike. Just had dinner with Steve Selchow last night. He's been working boro over 30 years with dids... big... small... what ever. He saw good enough to drink a few beers and eat some chicken nachos. His vision is perfect. I'm not advocating this... just letting people know. I also run with scissors. :D

Firelilly

2006-01-12, 12:12pm

Thanks to you both, Brent and Chad, for all the food for thought. Getting a sample pack of boro and giving it a try sounds like a good idea. :) Worst that could happen is that I'd have fun!

Lil

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-12, 12:56pm

Thanks for the color suggestions. I just ordered ummm....a few more than 3 colors, onyx, white and clear. You guys are a bad influence.:wink:

Just Nancy

2006-01-12, 1:20pm

Thanks for the color suggestions. I just ordered ummm....a few more than 3 colors, onyx, white and clear. You guys are a bad influence.:wink:
Bad influence is right. I keep thinking of my clear rods that I got for putnies and my tubes (that don't heat well in my bobcat) and wondering what I can make with the clear and my puney couple inches of blue that I have.

Come to think of it, I know I own the Doug R video on beads, and a sample pack from one of the boro companies. It might have been a promo with the DVD. I'm ignoring the temptation because I know it will lead to more expendatures. :evil:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-12, 2:08pm

Take the plunge!!! You won't be sorry for long... :lol:

Lisi

2006-01-12, 2:37pm

Brent,

I LOVE boro with my Bobcat and Airsep AS-12A generator! This little torch is hotter than my Mini CC because of the more focused flame I suppose. My Airsep is the high pressure one so I hope it can power up a Barracuda okay. That's my next move up, lol. Money is a factor, but I tell you what - when that's no longer a problem, I will have me a BIG glass allowance! [-o<

I've made a couple of good beads, but most of my colors were a little muddy and I can't get a decent purple from the amber purples. I just get amber. I have a little trouble understanding annealing schedules for boro colors, they vary so much! Someone told me I need to anneal at 1200 and then ramp down to lower temps for the colors, I'm sooo confused!

Actually, how long is borosilicate supposed to anneal for the sake of durability? I have Lori's book, so that's annealing for about 30 minutes after ramp up, and that's it? You can just start ramping down after that period?? I know that the rubies will turn too dark and brownish if annealed too long, but can that be less than desirable for the amber purples?

Here's the good ones: GA rust and one of the silver strikes, I think, and NS star white, bubble gum, and one of the rubies. :) The only ones I made that I actually like. These beads are big, 25mm and 30mm. And of course, the color is applied over a clear base, lol! I have the small NS sample pack and a few of the GA project kits.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-12, 3:04pm

Cool Lisa... you're well on your way. There is no simple boro annealing / striking schedule. Not one that works for everything or everybody any way. That's part of it... if you flame strike and just want to anneal, 30-45 minutes at 1050 will do the trick and then ramp down slowly to 950... hold a few and off for smaller work. The kiln striking just takes some time to get down. ;) Great first beads. You should be proud! :D

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-12, 6:04pm

Lisa, those are pretty!

OK, guys I have another question:grin: If I make a smallish sculpture, not thick, kind of open and airy with boro and I go to put it in the annealer...well, I'm trying to wrap my brain around heat evenivity, non-thermal shockiness and things like that...would the small sculpture go right in the hot kiln or should it/can it be cooled and put in a cold kiln and sort of batch annealed?

To be more specific, what I've got an idea to make is a stand for some vessels, a top ring that's solid and a scallop/drape pattern that's open down from the ring. The solid ring probably wouldn't be more than 1" around and the whole thing tall wouldn't be more than 2". Do I just pop that puppy in the kiln when I'm done? If yes, does it get flashed first? Does that make any sense? This going back and forth with soft and hard glass is.....:-k

Cosmo

2006-01-12, 7:16pm

Boro is forgiving. I have taken many room temperature pieces and thrown them into a hot kiln with no problem.

Gently heat it from time to time while you're working on it so it doesn't shock, and you'll be fine when it's time to put it into the kiln.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-12, 7:43pm

It all depends on the piece... when you break enough of them, you'll learn what needs to go in the kiln right away and what can be set on the bench to cool. ;)

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-13, 5:52am

Thanks! I just love a good learning curve.:lol:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-13, 6:10am

Boro is a lot like soft glass. It has all the little quirks you had to get used to then... what seems easy to you now wasn't when you first started making beads. I'm really trying to prepare people for a little of this. If you don't expect it to be a magical glass that is so forgiving that it never cracks, you won't be dissapointed when it does. ;) As people get better at working the glass and reading the heat base... and putting an even heat into a piece, they can leave it out of the kiln to cool. It's not annealed, but it will survive until it is batch annealed. Lori Robbins almost pisses me off with the stuff she just sits on her bench to cool. :lol: She can do like 6 boro beads on a mandrel and just let them cool without losing a single one. That just comes from making thousands and thousands of beads. I don't do that much mandrel work, so mine like to crack in half if I don't put them in the kiln. I can let pendants cool out of the kiln though. ;) I still put them in the kiln as soon as they are done. Why risk a crack if you don't have to? Then, they are done at the end of the day and I get to list them. I use more electric, but the warm fuzzy feeling I get turning my kiln on before I work is worth it. :love: There's something about that first hummmmm of electricity! :D

Just Nancy

2006-01-13, 6:21am

I really like that it is so much less shocky. Some days I go to my torch to relax. If everything pops, it doesn't reset my internal balance as well. That and having different results is what makes me think about going that way.

e. mort

2006-01-13, 7:39am

Good thread!

Well, I have a bunch of boro clear, two of the tiny NS sample pacs, and a bunch of labled NS rods from Mr. Smiley. I also bought the GA sample pack from arrowsprings with the "self paced projects." The GTT Delta is finally set up and ready to go with tanked oxy. Looks like it is time to finally try out the boro this weekend! My daughter also wants to learn to work boro. Will she be able to do small boro things such as beads and pendants on my old GTT bobcat?

Are the directions for working GA boro different than those for working the NS boro? In other words do I need to stick with learning just GA or NS before trying the other?

Thanks!

Eric

Cosmo

2006-01-13, 8:00am

Brent labelled your rods?

Brent, remind me to kick you in the shins next time I see you! :D

GA and NS boro is basically the same thing, and can be worked the same way. In fact, a lot of their colors are very similar. Almost interchangable. NS Double Amber Purple and GA Triple Passion are the first that come to mind.

If you haven't done so yet, go to both www.glassalchemyarts.com and www.northstarglass.com and look at their suggestions for working their color.

You should have no problem working boro on a Bobcat. I have made several large beads on a Minor, and not long ago I made a 1" boro marble on a Minor running off a two concentrators.

e. mort

2006-01-13, 9:06am

Hi Chad,

I think brent just put together a package of NS shorts that still had the labels on them so don't kick him too hard. :lol:

Thanks for the info about the boro color websites. I have literature from GA but none from NS so that will be really helpful.

Eric

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-13, 9:51am

I think he got the bundle of rods that were labeled already. I didn't do squat. :lol: You can kick me when you see me, but don't count on my crappy memory to remind you. ;)

Chad, give me a call. I have some info for you... might be helpful. :D 407-824-9108 or 407-383-4596

Cosmo

2006-01-13, 11:31am

Lisi

2006-01-13, 12:10pm

Brent,

Thanks so much, now I get it! So, the boro annealing temp is held at 1050, pretty much the same amount of time I'll hold for the soft glass at 968 after the last bead is in the kiln. The color flame striking and kiln temps are what's going to vary then! I do need to flame strike better than I do though. There has to be a way to get some purple out of the DAP, lol!

For some reason I see myself having much more patience with this glass than I did with soft glass. So if I get mud, I get mud. Sooner or later I'll get the color I want, and thanks to you and all the others who share your learning experiences. :)

Yeah, and I'm well aware that the stuff can crack, so I treat it nicely! I made a 4 inch long vessel that cracked right on the mandrel after heating one end too long.

CarolinaDreamDesigns

2006-01-13, 7:36pm

I appreciate the info. My bank account isn't as appreciative....

NO FAIR!!!! Share the misery why don't ya? I get four crappy beads to one good one and that ONE good beady looking thing keeps me wandering back to boro when I should be using all the soft glass I have!

::grumble grumble::

SO what gives?

Martha

suzanne

2006-01-14, 12:04am

Cosmo

2006-01-14, 7:41am

I just hooked up my lynx and two concentrators the other day and djeez what a difference the heat makes! I said before that my minor could not make the beads clear ( not hot enough) but this little torch doesn't have a problem at all!!

I do have some questions, I hope someone can awnser them for me.

When I turn on my torch it takes about five to ten minutes to get the full propane flow going. I have to adjust the propane knob at least 15 times before I get a nice and steady flame. Is this normal for a lynx? I tested all the lines and there is no leak, it just looks like the flame get's smaller ( as if the bottle is almost empty, but its a new one and it's full so that is not the problem)

Also, I was wondering if I can batch anneal boro ( I just read mr smileys posting, so I assume I can) but I'd rather be safe then sorry.

Thanks all!

I would check your propane regulator. It sounds like it's either not set right for that torch, or it's faulty.

You can batch anneal boro, but I don't recommend it. There isn't really a problem with them breaking, but it's hard to get the colors to develop correctly if you let them cool and them batch anneal them. However, if you use non-striking colors, you can probably batch anneal them with no problem.

Cosmo

2006-01-14, 7:42am

NO FAIR!!!! Share the misery why don't ya? I get four crappy beads to one good one and that ONE good beady looking thing keeps me wandering back to boro when I should be using all the soft glass I have!

::grumble grumble::

SO what gives?

Martha

No, nothing like that. Brent is helping me set up and equip our studio, and one of the things we were looking for is getting ready to go up in price. Unfortunately, I'm sure the general public will find out soon enough. Now I have to scrounge up $5000....

suzanne

2006-01-14, 9:07am

The regulator I use for my propane is almost new, I used it on my minor all the time and it worked fine, maybe I have the pressure set too low for the lynx, that could be the problem. Thanks for thinking with me.

suzanne

CarolinaDreamDesigns

2006-01-14, 9:43am

EEWwwwwwwwww - you have my sympathy!!

I have enough heart spasms thinking about what I've spent on stuff I may never see a return on - I cannot imagine what it costs to setup a teaching studio!

Sorry :cry:

Martha

No, nothing like that. Brent is helping me set up and equip our studio, and one of the things we were looking for is getting ready to go up in price. Unfortunately, I'm sure the general public will find out soon enough. Now I have to scrounge up $5000....

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-14, 9:53am

It's the o-rings in the valves. They are new and they do that for a while with GTTs. They expand just a tad after you open the valve. Stop adjusting your regulator and just turn the propane knob up a little on the torch. I'm 99.9% sure anyway. ;)

suzanne

2006-01-14, 11:10am

Thanks Mr Smiley!!

This is the reason I love this place so much, with all these experts I feel totaly safe torching, and if anything is off, there are always people willing to help and share!

Thanks again!

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-14, 11:38am

Just a side note: I ordered some clip ons, level 5, for my regular torching glasses. My eyes were bothering me.........so.......
I will be taking a break from the boro until they come in.

OMG I can't see w/ the level 5 8-) Waaayy too dark :sad: Whine whine whine.
I'll have to trade them for a level 3.

I ordered a couple things from Generations Glass and am very happy w/ the service I rec'd from them! Thanks for the recommendation.

I am having a hard time w/ shaping as the glass stiffens up so much faster than the soft glass.

I'll try and add pictures later of what I've made so far.

Mr. Smiley: Any photo suggestions? or can you point me to a thread w/ easy to follow instructions.
Your hearts just seem to come alive in your photos =D>

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-14, 12:26pm

I use a Sony Cybershot 2.1 megapixel dinosaur digital camera, with a 100 watt Reveal light bulb shining from above. It's diffused through white material. That's it. I just got a photo cube thingy, so we'll see how it works compared to my home made light box. ;)

Lenda

2006-01-14, 2:22pm

I just dabble with boro, haven't shown anyone any yet. But I will say this. I did a ton of shows this past summer/fall and guess what sold first all the time out of all of my beautiful beads? My very few, plainer boro beads, that's what, people picked them right out even though they knew nothing of glass.......So that should kick start some of you into boro.

What clear do you all recommend? I think I got Simax or something like that when I got it 2 years ago, but I don't remember.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-14, 3:31pm

Simax, Kimble or Schott. It's all good. ;) They yeild slightly different colors, but I can't keep track of it myself. ;)

FlameDancer

2006-01-14, 7:17pm

What's the best palce to get boro, at a GOOD, sale price? I missed all the sales during the holidays. I need a couple lbs to start out with.

Cosmo

2006-01-14, 9:15pm

What's the best palce to get boro, at a GOOD, sale price? I missed all the sales during the holidays. I need a couple lbs to start out with.

I get mine from www.lampworkingsupplies.com most of the time. But I also buy from www.generationsglass.com and www.mountainglassarts.com. Both of the second ones are in NC, so you'll get it pretty quickly. Of course, I get my stuff in a couple days from any of those places.

Cosmo

2006-01-14, 9:17pm

What clear do you all recommend? I think I got Simax or something like that when I got it 2 years ago, but I don't remember.

I use both Kimble and Simax. Sometimes in the same piece. I can't tell a difference. Looking at the cold rods from the end, Simax looks slightly blue, and Kimax looks slightly yellow, but I can't see difference in finished work.

Haven't tried Schott or Pyrex...

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-15, 5:08am

What's the best palce to get boro, at a GOOD, sale price? I missed all the sales during the holidays. I need a couple lbs to start out with.

I can get you a good price on a small starter order. ;) Just PM me and let me know what you want. :love:

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-15, 6:48am

I can get you a good price on a small starter order. ;) Just PM me and let me know what you want. :love:

Well, shi*, I wish I'd known ](*,)

FlameDancer

2006-01-15, 6:53am

FlameDancer

2006-01-15, 6:54am

Ooooh Brent...yay!!! See the colors that I listed to Chad. That's what I have a single rod of. What other colors do you recommend? I'm off to shoot you a PM:)

seafire

2006-01-15, 7:40am

I work with both soft and boro glass. I love the boro for the exotic colours. While the soft is faster with sharper colours. Annealing is different with boro, i run my kiln at 1050 while working in the flame, the glass goes directly from flame to 1050 kiln. (30 mins min) The soft glass is batch annealed every two or three days 50 to 100 at a time. I like to work standing up with the tunes thumping in the background, I think that is called flamedancing....The tutorials posted are most helpful..cheers vic

Cosmo

2006-01-15, 9:34am

Thanks Chad. I just bought a couple of things from Kristian at Generations...what a sweetheart to deal with and very fast shipping. I missed his killer sale though:( I did buy 9 rods of glass...I got Momka's Citrus Grapefruit, Momka's Almond nugget, Momka's Charles Brown, NS Amber Purple, NS Dbl. Amber Purple, NS Caramel, NS Egyptian White Sand, NS Onyx and GA Chocolate Crayon. I also got Doug's DVD, so now I need the colors that he uses, so I can get a good start. I do have a couple of the 6 inch boro starter packs but no warm yellow:(

I LOVE Chris over at Mountain Glass...gosh what a neat guy he is. And, Steve is pretty cool too. They have helped me out tremendously. I didn't order from them because they didn't have the DVD, which I REALLY wanted.

Now I just want to get a really GOOD deal on my glass. lol

Thanks:)

Okay, let's see...

Encase the browns, or work them really cool, or they'll boil.

Amber Purple and Double are pretty easy to work. Work them hot and let them go clear, let them cool a little, then flame strike.

All the Momka's colors seem to be pretty boil-resistant, so no problem there.

The Caramel can fume colors around it if you aren't careful. If it does, heat it up pretty hot and you will be able to see the fume burn off.

As for other colors, obviously get some clear if you don't have it already. A bunch of clear, in different sizes.

Here are the other colors I use regularly:

GA Cobalt Light
GA Cobalt 2
GA Twilight Chameleon
GA Peacock Chameleon
GA Amazon Bronze
GA Purple Luster
GA Black Violet
GA Solara
GA Blush
GA Silver Strike 3
GA Silver Strike 5
Elvis (not sure who makes it, but it's easy to find)
NS Blue Moon
NS Irrid
NS Multi
Gold and Silver for fuming

Just Nancy

2006-01-15, 10:32am

I have to adjust the propane knob at least 15 times before I get a nice and steady flame.

My bobcat still does this and it is way past the break in point. In fact there is also a spot that it produces a huge flame but if you keep opening it, the flame goes back down. I haven't checked to see if there is any difference in how full the propane tank is.

Hopefully yours is still in the break in period. The only suggestions given to me from one of the 'twins' was not to tighten them too much in the off position. Good luck.

Just Nancy

2006-01-15, 10:34am

I get mine from www.lampworkingsupplies.com most of the time. Of course, I get my stuff in a couple days from any of those places.

I'll second the lampworking supplies! Love their service. Especially if you are in the MidWest. It's nice to have a supplier of both soft glass and boro that's not far away.

firefreak

2006-01-15, 12:25pm

Why boro? Because i want to blow glass! I got bit by the glass bug in a hot shop. working with the glass on a blowpipe, and watching it expand is a Awesome feeling. For me working on a mandrel is just not the same. I admire the skills it takes to work on a bead, I just cant seem to wrap my head around working on something that small!
I do make some solid pieces. About 1/3 of my stuff is solids.
Finding tubing in soft glass is hard to do, and there is no where near the size and wall thickness available. So if your going to blow, it just about has to be in boro.
The thing that sucks about boro in color selection. there are so many more colors in soft glass than in boro.I cant find a royal purple in boro! Lavender, violet, grape, etc but no true purple that will work in my pieces! And everyone wants a purple piece!
The funny thing is I'm not really very good at making pieces. But I do 8-10 shows a year and people buy my stuff. At least it allows me to buy more glass and keep trying to get good at it!

IF-Designs

2006-01-17, 12:35am

I love the colors, I love the naturalness and organicness of it, I love the way it melts and behaves...its my favorite glass to use by far. The boro recipe book that was mentioned earlier in this thread I highly recommend its A W E S O M E ! Doug Remschneiders boro DVD is good too but I found the recipe book from Lori and Rocio and Ron more helpful and way more handy :) Im also finding the more I do and want to do the more I really need a hotter torch...id love to get a baracuda but I dont see that happening any time soon....just me and my lil old bobcat on 2 salvaged oxy cons for me its frusterating many days but i have no other choice. If you can afford a bigger torch get it.

FlameDancer

2006-01-17, 4:12pm

Chad, those colors sounds great to start out. I still need to put my glass color order together. I've been taking care of a sick puppy and it's just about to whip me:( Just when I think we've rounded the corner, she declines again.

Thanks again for the color list.

Cosmo

2006-01-17, 4:50pm

Yeah. I'm also a big fan of gold and silver fuming. It seems like everything I make these days is fumed.

And, I just got into dichroic - http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12007

FlameDancer

2006-01-17, 5:11pm

Cool marbles Chad. I got a couple of the quartz rods the other day, to do some fuming. Do you know how to fume with them? I have searched and searched but can't find any info.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-17, 7:28pm

Your heat up the rod and pick up the gold or silver on the end. Then you put the metal into the flame. The metal will go liquid long before quartz... I doubt your torch will melt quartz, so hold it at an angle that keeps the metal on the tip. When the metal starts to fume, you'll see a vapor trail. Put the piece you want to fume in this vapor. The metal will coat the piece and you will get different effects with different thicknesses. ;) Have fun and good ventilation is a must. :D

Cosmo

2006-01-17, 8:12pm

For some really good information on fuming, check out Kenan Tiemeyer's article in the June/July 2005 Glass Line magazine - http://www.hotglass.com/online.html#_INDEX_1

dogmaw

2006-01-17, 8:17pm

Cosmo

2006-01-18, 7:03am

I second that Brent.... extra extra extra good ventilation is needed. That is a lot of metal fumes, and they accumulate in the lungs. So you might not notice anything the first time you do it, but it might make you sick the 10th.

Yeah. I have good ventilation, but I still lean back away from the torch and hold my breath when I'm fuming. I know I should probably wear a respirator, but I don't...

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-18, 7:49am

I try to inhale as much as I can... I figure if my lungs are gold plated, my smoking won't be able to penetrate the hard shell... I'll be healthier in the end... :lol: Just kidding. ;)

Cosmo

2006-01-18, 8:00am

I try to inhale as much as I can... I figure if my lungs are gold plated, my smoking won't be able to penetrate the hard shell... I'll be healthier in the end... :lol: Just kidding. ;)

Plus, when you die, your lungs can be sold on Ebay...

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-18, 10:32am

Plus, when you die, your lungs can be sold on Ebay...

:P That's a phenominal idea! Maybe then they could afford something other than cardboard to burry me in. :lol:

suzanne

2006-01-18, 10:50am

maybe they can be incorporated in jewelry, a big old chain with boro beads and gold-tar fumed lungs?

Moth

2006-01-18, 5:09pm

FlameDancer

2006-01-18, 5:13pm

Thanks so much Brent. I just couldn't wrap my head around how to do it. Now you've solved that problem:) And, thanks for the link Chad. I'll check it out.

PaulaD

2006-01-18, 9:10pm

I've been wanting to try boro since I found out that it doesn't spit at you at the Lowell Gathering. So far I have justbeen collecting colors but my Barracuda is on the way and I just got a Wildcat so should be able to start soon.! For anyone who wants to take a class we have Lauri teaching here in March, Andrew Brown over Memorial Day weekend, and I hope to get Brent here later in the year or 2007..Hopefully I will do better at hard glass than at soft glass...Paula

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-19, 4:56am

Tell me what I need to run a redmax and I'll just get that one.

I don't think either of the ones out will push a redmax. I think you are in the same boat I'm in... waiting for the M-30. ;)

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-19, 4:57am

Krissa, You are very welcome. :D

Paula, Let's set a date... email me after your torch arrives. :D

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-19, 5:03am

I also wanted to say that there are some really easy color combos that work in off mandrel applications. A lot of people pull their hair out trying to get Dougie pink. It's a technical combo and needs to be set up perfectly in order to get good results. As hard as it seems, it's much easier on a mandrel than off mandrel. I like to be able to get good results in a number of applications. Since ruby is difficult to work with on uneven pieces, I just leave it out as much as I can. Uneven heating will result in livery ugly colors for me. Since most of what I make isn't round and easy to heat evenly, I've worked to find other colors that behave themselves. I don't think anybody should have to pull out their hair for good boro color. I'm go bald on my own and don't need to speed the process. :lol: Try AP, DAP or Triple passion over white... amazing warm pinks, orange and purple colors can be acheived without so much fuss. ;)

suzanne

2006-01-19, 5:09am

ANd here I was thinking it was me. I could not get the bright pink I saw on Doug's dvd!! I will have to give the dap or triple passion a go, thanks!

FlameDancer

2006-01-19, 5:49am

I figured it wasn't going to be as easy as he makes it out to be. lol. Thanks for the tips. I guess the best thing for me to do, is just sit down and play, without a game plan (which for me is hard to do) and write it all down. That way, I can remember what I used.

Thanks again Brent :)

I also wanted to say that there are some really easy color combos that work in off mandrel applications. A lot of people pull their hair out trying to get Dougie pink. It's a technical combo and needs to be set up perfectly in order to get good results. As hard as it seems, it's much easier on a mandrel than off mandrel. I like to be able to get good results in a number of applications. Since ruby is difficult to work with on uneven pieces, I just leave it out as much as I can. Uneven heating will result in livery ugly colors for me. Since most of what I make isn't round and easy to heat evenly, I've worked to find other colors that behave themselves. I don't think anybody should have to pull out their hair for good boro color. I'm go bald on my own and don't need to speed the process. :lol: Try AP, DAP or Triple passion over white... amazing warm pinks, orange and purple colors can be acheived without so much fuss. ;)

kiko

2006-01-19, 9:12am

boroburner

2006-01-20, 9:17am

Hiya all!
Ive been working boro for a bit now and i can remember a time when all you could get for color was cobalt4, caramel, the worst ruby ever, and jade b4 they fixed it. What a nightmare!!! Onyx is prolly my favorite black, its nice and dense. I love GA they kickstarted the color race. Started on a CC+(great torch), and recently (2yrs)bought a GTT Mirage(better torch). The hype is all true when it comes to these torches. I never had flame control like i do with the GTT. And cus its all surface mix you can eliminate the reduction(Was my biggest problem with the CC+). The oxy bit isnt all that bad, just go liquid. I work 5 days a week(sometimes more) usually 6hrs a day, making large items. Usually and i find my bill$ is only about 170$CAD a month, slightly more in the summer cuz of evaporation. Sure that seems like a lot but i can make more than that in a day working, so i guess its all relative.
Great thread you got going here.
ben

boroburner

2006-01-20, 10:20am

Oooops I just realised i only read to pg4. Sorry if my last post was totally irrelevent.

Kiko...... I use liquid and find it quite cost effective. Belive it or not the liquid o2 tanks, although a little intimidating, are very safe. They will prolly at some time or other start screaming however. This will scare the living hell out of you the first time you experience it, its just the pressure valve venting. My brother and i made it about 2 blocks b4 we realised it wasnt gonna blow! I had no idea i could run so fast. You should store the O2 tanks outside in a shaded area. This will help you slow the evap rate. The best part of it alll is theres no wrestling involved with them, simply pick where you want it delivered and the hulking delivery guys will use the special dolly they have to move it. Tanks weigh in at about 750lbs i think (full) so moving them is not much of an option, once there placed, even turning them is tricky. I have friends that r paying 100$CAD per liquid tank, they have tank lease also, and i dont know all the details. I currently pay 176$CAD Incl; delivery, rental, etc.
hope this helps.
Ben

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-20, 11:39am

Smiley, Cosmo,

I've been playing with some off mandrel stuff this week. Using my Lynx/2 concentrators. Having some trouble with devitrification. I'm using pyrex clear but also found devit problems with millenium moss, amazon bronze, na rust. Could it be my clear or should I case some colors before working them. Perhaps letting things cool and reheating is the problem. Should I try another clear?

Question 2. Thinking about my next upgrade... Hate the thugs at the welding supply house and lugging tanks. The cuda intrigues me because it is a bit bigger than my lynx and I may be able to run it on a big concentrator. Is the center fire of the cuda as sweet as my lynx? I probably would use the center fire more than the outer. I would really like to get a phantom... Get in line and wait. How dangerous is dealing with liquid ox and the bumptious manly men at the welding supply store...

Will post my groovy boro hearts on the creative cardiac thread.

Thanks again for this this thread!

What you've got may or may not be devit. If the glass isn't hot enough when you try to move it, you'll get stretch marks. Both problems can be solved by working the glass hotter and for less time (devit). Devit is caused by glass remaining in a mid heat zone for too long, so either up the heat or lower it... it you lower it though, the glass won't move. :lol:.

Pyrex clear is not my favorite. Kimble or Symax are better clears IMHO.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-20, 11:40am

dogmaw

2006-01-20, 12:50pm

Ben, sure wish I could get liquid here. My supplier won't deliver to residential. :( Glad to see you on the board. It helps even out the hormones. There's a bunch of females here, so I can use the help. ;) :lol:

Hormones?!?! Are you suggesting that the women here have hormone trouble??!?!?! Man, you are asking for it. :lol:

On another note, where can I get a case of clear boro, and how many pounds to the case?

Cosmo

2006-01-20, 12:54pm

Hormones?!?! Are you suggesting that the women here have hormone trouble??!?!?! Man, you are asking for it. :lol:

On another note, where can I get a case of clear boro, and how many pounds to the case?

http://lampworkingsupplies.com/products.php?cat=100&products=Lampworking%20Supplies-10mmrrKc-11mmrrKc-12.7mmrrKc-16mmrrKc-20mmrrKc-25.4mmrrKc-31.7mmrrKc-3mmrrKc-4mmrrKc-5mmrrKc-6mmrrKc-7mmrrKc-8mmrrKc-9mmrrKc.htm

IF-Designs

2006-01-20, 2:17pm

From the engineerng specs ive seen the larger concentrators 20psi ones or generators should opperate a red max ok probally better on a midrange plus which is a very similar setup to the red max.....
Tell me what I need to run a redmax and I'll just get that one.

PaulaD

2006-01-20, 2:50pm

We use LOX at the studio. Whatever size it is that I have one tank equals 18 high pressure tanks. Mine doesn't scream when it vents. Its just a hiss. Oh, I forgot I am deaf. Maybe it does scream. hehe. Anyway, it lasts much longer than people think it will...Paula

boroburner

2006-01-20, 3:40pm

:waving: look forwad to being part of this.

Kiko- you could be burning out the sodium(i think)? if ur over working the glass, if thats the cause i think its irreversable. Most everything else can b fixed with a quick flame polish.

LOX at the shop is like 5'tall and maybe 18" across. The really big one wont go over the gravel driveway. I think its = to about 13 high pressure cylinders.? I think the evap rate is 1% day, if your tank is in good shape. I have noticed that tank condition makes a differance.
The whistle it makes is really something else, sounds like i have an old steam engine in the front yard. lol I wonder what the neighbors think it?

B

kiko

2006-01-20, 5:12pm

Thanks B burner and Smiley. I think I may have worked the glass too much and it is devit. I tried to fire polish is out, just got worse. I'm still a boro grasshopper

Maybe I should just play nice with my lynx and respect the boro a little more. I noticed what must be some sodium crystals on my boro tube. I thought it was from my breath vaporizing while blowing...

Is it the female hormones that cause you to lust for a bigger torch?

Thanks for the info on liquid... Screaming huh? Luckily we're in the country...

Glad you joined in Ben.

Baubles by eli

2006-01-21, 11:24am

This thread is great! I am a beginner with boro, been working soft glass for three years and wanted to try boro. I love it! The colors are so vibrant and breathtaking. I have a couple of questions though......

1. When you encase your beads, do you strike the color first and then encase and strike again--or do you encase and strike?

2. How do you get the lovely formed waves, do you put clear stringer on over the color?

Thanks,
eli

boroburner

2006-01-21, 12:33pm

kiko- it takes a lot to create true devit, i think ur prolly having issues with cooling/bending the piece. Have you tried bridging/bracing ur work? Whats on ur tube is prolly scum, try to wash it off b4 you work, or it could maybe be a scratch.
What brand of clear RU using?

Eli- i dont make madnrel beads but you can do either tech for striking depending on which result you are looking for. Certain colors react depending on how they are heated and cooled ie: Amason night, paddling your piece and cooling differnt sections at differnt times will create a mirid of differnt colors. atmosphere is also very important. Some colors take longer to strike than others, while some will over strike and look kinda nasty. The old reds were really bad for this, but they seem to be getting really stable these days. You will have to learn how each color reacts, both by its self and with other colors, encased and unencased. The best advice i can give you is practice. As for the waves doy you mean the wrap n' rake technic?
B

Baubles by eli

2006-01-21, 12:43pm

Yes, that's what I mean, B. What is the wrap n' rake technique?

eli

boroburner

2006-01-21, 1:45pm

i heat a lg section of tube(i work mosty hollow) get a piece of color hot wrap a stringer around the tube, try to keep them fairly thin .5mm ish, all they way up the the legnth. Now use clear 4-5mm up to 8mm or bigger, depending what ur doing, to rake it from top to bottom across the sritnger u just put down. You will have to figure out where in the flame is good temp to get a full mely w/o trapping air or smearing the color too much.

Fuming is great for this tech but make sure you have GOOD ventalation! You should be able to hold a tissue in front of ur torch and have it go to 45 degrees or so. This will ensure any fumes created or dust kicked up from frit/powders etc. wont go in ur lungs.<-----that bad!mmmmK
Good luck
B

kiko

2006-01-21, 3:52pm

Thanks Ben,

Hmmm what do you mean by bridging/bracing my work? New concept for me?

I have been using pyrex clear and tubing. Bought a bit of it to practice my new obsession.... Could probably blame a lot of my divit on bad technique. I am trying to work without an agenda and let the glass talk to me...

Thanks again!

LAG

2006-01-21, 6:43pm

I started boro playing with free samples and used my Minor Burner.. They don't play fair.. I have now upgraded and love my DragonFire Bullet. And lucky me TOOT TOOT.... I live near Momka's Glass. Helped them with some packaging the other day and had a great time. Special type of pizza for lunch that was terrific and some awesome wine. Had to hold back on that till the work was done. Anyone get any sample packs messed up, you can blame me, I think..
What is a real plus is any time I have a question about color, they are right there. And from what I have read, looks like there are a lot of people "right there" on LE. Thanks so much to all you experience boro workers that are taking the time to help us newbies out.... You guys are the mostest..

Back to my copy/pasting now......

IF-Designs

2006-01-22, 8:08pm

I love Momkas I havnt been able to order in far too long :( my local place doesnt carry it :( even though ive asked like a billion times ....but I love their glass and im in serious longing for some colors I had in samples that im out of now :( come on money tree! when are you gonna grow in my yard! lol

IF-Designs

2006-01-22, 8:11pm

Hi Baubles by eli
1. When you encase your beads, do you strike the color first and then encase and strike again--or do you encase and strike?

*I usually encase first then either flame strike or kiln strike...lately ive been kiln striking and since I figured out the schedule for my kiln its working much better :)

2. How do you get the lovely formed waves, do you put clear stringer on over the color?

Depends what your talking about...if you had pics I might be able to answer better but toget the nice swirly color alot of times ill take 3-4 mm clear and and as I heat the beads I draw it on kinda smooshing it into the color into a wavy type pattern then melt in and round out and sometimes ill encase the bead entirely after that.

Baubles by eli

2006-01-23, 6:26am

Thanks IF-Designs! I am talking about these wonderful swirls in Norma Brink's beads, I just love her beads!

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/baublesbyeli/010706IMG_8869.jpg" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket">

<img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/baublesbyeli/010706IMG_8892.jpg" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket">

Baubles by eli

2006-01-23, 6:27am

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/baublesbyeli/010706IMG_8892.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/baublesbyeli/010706IMG_8869.jpg

Firelilly

2006-01-23, 7:48am

Sweet baubles, eli! :love:

Lil

boroburner

2006-01-23, 8:04am

???? I dunno how to do that! I have touched a mandrel only twice b4 with unsatisfactory results. I was describing a totally differnt tech.
b

Cosmo

2006-01-23, 8:31am

To make those, this is how I do it...

Wind glass onto the mandrel in a tall, thin disc. On each side of the disc, put dots of clear, alternating from side to side. Slowly melt it down. The clear will push the color to opposite sides, making a wave pattern. Then encase.

If I get a chance, I'll get some pictures of it in progress...

Cosmo

2006-01-23, 8:39am

Forgot I had these old pictures on my computer. Here you go. I didn't encase thise one, so it looks slightly different, but you get the idea.

http://www.soleiletlune.com/tutorials

LAG

2006-01-23, 9:14am

Wave beads are fun and pretty. Another way I have seen done is just wave a 3mm clear stringer back and forth over the disk.

I am about to find out how the colors come out on mine after they cook at 1015 for 12 hours! We had a power out last night (some drunk tried to deliver a power pole into the river). I forgot my kiln was on in the shop.

FYI.. if that happens, check your kiln if it is on. If your kiln should come back on, it may not be programmed properly. I have had the kiln shoot to 1500 after a surge and stay there till I go shut it off. This could not only be disasterous to your glass work, but a fire issue exists!!!

Baubles by eli

2006-01-23, 1:01pm

Thanks Chad and Lag, I will try both methods.

eli

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-23, 6:06pm

Forgot I had these old pictures on my computer. Here you go. I didn't encase thise one, so it looks slightly different, but you get the idea.

http://www.soleiletlune.com/tutorials

Thank you for sharing/showing that! 3 Tutorials, yay.
I can't seem to figure some stuff out w/ a visual :roll:

I want to also thank you for the recommending Mountain Glass Arts. I was shocked to find out they are located in Asheville #-o I cannot wait to check out their retail shop tomorrow! I get to actually touch a product before I buy it........what a concept. Maybe even pick out my own rods, oh my.......have never done that before! I noticed on their website they are also carrying Effetre, so I may be in heaven :cool:

I am also stopping by A Touch of Glass where Mr. Smiley is teaching in May. I cannot wait until tomorrow, it is going to be a FUN day.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-24, 8:45am

Have a blast Carrie. I couldn't imagine not being able to hand pick my color. It is heaven! :D

dogmaw

2006-01-24, 9:38am

Have a blast Carrie. I couldn't imagine not being able to hand pick my color. It is heaven! :D

Must be nice! I just order whatever is on sale. :lol: Except for a case of clear..... (hint hint)

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-24, 10:52am

I have a question. I tried to take a good pic of this so you could see what I mean, but you can't really see what I mean, so I'll try to put it in words. The little jug is made of double amber purple. The neck is fully encased in clear. so far so good. The body is double amber purple with clear stripes swiped on. Where the DAP is bare, it is silver, like it was reduced, but it wasn't. I already know that my mini-cc with NG and 2 oxycons isn't enough for something of this size, so it was worked a long time. I didn't realize the change in lighting would so drastically change the colors. Cool thing and I can work with that, but....why did the DAP go silver? Does it just do that unencased, or is it something else like working too long?
I know the jug has certain fatal flaws, like it appears to be stuck on my pinky finger :-P , just looking for some insight on the silver thing.
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/1158394/8866406/127002270.jpg

LAG

2006-01-24, 11:11am

New to boro myself but I do know if you work DAP in a reducing flame before you put on your clear, then cooly apply the clear, you can capture the reduction under the clear and your glass with shimmer deep with glitter under the clear as well as the silver on the outside.
Boro is interesting stuff.... Sometimes you get silver from reducing. Sometimes you get it from oxygen flame....
P.S. gorgeous vessel!!!!!

Cosmo

2006-01-24, 11:22am

Chances are it is from a reducing flame. Running concentrators, your oxygen isn't as pure as tanked oxygen. Also, when you are working it, get it hot and you will see a "haze" on the glass. More heat and you can see the haze burn off. Burn it off, let it cool, strike it, and put it into the kiln. That will give you the result you are looking for.

boroburner

2006-01-24, 11:30am

reduction would be my guess too.
B

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-24, 12:06pm

OK, I think I see. I didn't think it was a reduction flame, but I do have to turn up the gas to get the boro to melt on my set-up, so even though it doesn't look like a redux flame it's probably got too much gas in the mix. Or something. Thanks for the info! Mama needs a new regulator.

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-24, 1:26pm

It's reduced. If it wasn't, it would be deep Amber or Purple. the haze is a very fun thing to play with. It can yeild many many colors with practice and encasing... not just poop brown. :lol:

xtweeksx

2006-01-24, 6:56pm

I have really enjoyed this thread........even though I dont use boro its been an extremely interesting read!

Great to see such sharing of techniques and ideas.

Jenny

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-25, 5:38am

7371

6765

6254

These were all made with double amber purple and clear... that's it. All the greens and blues are just trapped haze. ;)

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-25, 5:56am

Showoff!!! :P

BTW: Had an awesome experience at Mountain Glass. Steve was the best. And all the colors to choose from..........WOW. Service was exceptional.
I will get to the torch today and play w/ boro, especially now that I have a new pair of Shade 3 that fit me \\:D/
I will have to get in the habit of picture taking, I just loathe it, maybe because I suck at it ](*,)
I will post what I make tomorrow...........yeah right Carrie, just keep telling yourself that 8-[

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-25, 5:59am

OMG: I looked at my post and feel like I am making affirmations w/ all the "I will........" :roll:
Please forgive me my own insanity!

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-25, 6:51am

Oh come on Carrie! You don't want me to be the only one posting my n00b crap do you?:wink:

Smiley....you suck!!!:lol: Seriously gorgeous!

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-25, 8:01am

I wish I had better pictures of this batch of beads. They really were the coolest thing since sliced bread. I'm not normally a bead fondler, but these had me fondling away and just inpressed as hell with the color variations in that one color. Boro is fun. :D

boroburner

2006-01-25, 8:08am

Nice piece! The colors in it are great, so many shades.
b

LAG

2006-01-25, 8:32am

Lots of color in those beads with one rod.. Did you use some clear? They are gorgeous...

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-25, 9:07am

Lots of color in those beads with one rod.. Did you use some clear? They are gorgeous...

Yeperz...

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-26, 4:36pm

Tanya

2006-01-26, 6:13pm

Ok I took pics of my boro, um, playtime and now I don't know how to crop in Photoshop, am I am dummy or what?
How hard can it be? ](*,)
Gotta go find a thread on photo stuff, whine whine. Or beg for help? [-o<

Hi Carrie -

There's a crop tool in photoshop but I never use it. I use the crop function in the Image menu as follows: after you have your picture in photoshop, select the rectangular marquee tool (I'm assuming you know which this is because it's used so often. If not, let me know.) Make sure it's set to a rectangle since you can't crop an image that has been selected with the elliptical tool. The rectangle tool is the default, so this shouldn't be a problem. When you have the part of your image that you WANT selected with the rectangle marquee, click Image on the menu bar, then Crop. Voila! Or not. If not, let me know. Maybe someone else can explain the crop tool...

Tanya

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-26, 7:01pm

Thank you so much for responding! I feel very small right now :roll:
I FINALLY can crop. Yippee!!!
My brain is overwhelmed w/ all the info in the Tutorial section on photo taking and editing. I have Adobe 5.5. Maybe I need an upgrade? I don't know........getting off topic now.
I would still like some feedback on the colors I got after I find my mind to post the pics.
I am done for the night.
This forum rocks!
Thank you again to all of you that share your knowledge and your time so freely =D>

Hi Carrie -

There's a crop tool in photoshop but I never use it. I use the crop function in the Image menu as follows: after you have your picture in photoshop, select the rectangular marquee tool (I'm assuming you know which this is because it's used so often. If not, let me know.) Make sure it's set to a rectangle since you can't crop an image that has been selected with the elliptical tool. The rectangle tool is the default, so this shouldn't be a problem. When you have the part of your image that you WANT selected with the rectangle marquee, click Image on the menu bar, then Crop. Voila! Or not. If not, let me know. Maybe someone else can explain the crop tool...

Tanya

boroburner

2006-01-26, 7:39pm

I dunno about upgrading it. They seem to get more confusing the higher the edition # Photoshop 7 is a nightmare](*,)
B

Tanya

2006-01-26, 7:57pm

I'm running 7. If you just want it for simple photo editing, I don't see any reason to upgrade your 5.5. It looks very much like 7 and you have most of the capabilities. If you wanted to get into more complex editing, you probably would want to upgrade. It's expensive to upgrade though, and kind of a pain - especially if you get a new pc and then need to move the software. I tend to upgrade when I understand enough about the software to be able to understand the what specific improvements are and whether or not they are in areas I care about.

Glad you can crop now!

boroburner

2006-01-26, 9:18pm

I got mine 4 free8-) Get limewire basic, use limewire basic to get limewire pro(for free8-) ) then get photoshop7, again totaly free!!! Put on helmet and proceed to ](*,)
woooo hooooo, fileshare good!
B

glasskarma

2006-01-27, 12:15am

I have ALOT of 104 glass. If I started to dabble in pyrex then I would have to build another shed to put it all in. For me it is a space issue.

leeanne

FlameDancer

2006-01-27, 4:43am

Brent, I was going to PM you about this but the question was asked. When working with boro, I have tried my shade 3's on over my diddy's but can't see a damn thing. Nodda, zilch, nothing! It's VERY frustrating so I ended up taking them off. Small beads are okay right? If I go huge, then I can wear them?

I like Blue moon, AP or DAP, and a cobalt if I only could get 3 colors. Ding dang it, I would hate that... there are so many nice ones. I use onyx for black. It's a super duper saturated green based black.

I wear dids all the time... ok, well not all the time, some times I have a shade 3, but when I'm working small I do. Sorry Mike. Just had dinner with Steve Selchow last night. He's been working boro over 30 years with dids... big... small... what ever. He saw good enough to drink a few beers and eat some chicken nachos. His vision is perfect. I'm not advocating this... just letting people know. I also run with scissors. :D

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 4:46am

Ok here is a cople of pics, finally!
I hope they aren't too big.
I will get better at this picture taking.

15271
15272
15273

Tanya

2006-01-27, 5:09am

Looks like you're already pretty good at picture taking! Your beads look great - beautiful colors. And the pictures look really good. I despair over my bead pictures. Photoshop isn't the problem, it's the pictures themselves.

OK, what do I like about boro? I am also a 104 COE person. My #1 reason for considering boro is thermal shock. I'd love to make ornaments, pendants, etc., but am not good enough with soft glass (and my Minor doesn't do much in the way of radiant heat) to prevent thermal shock. I am incredibly BAD at pendants. It's fine until I go to put the loop on, then it's all over. Part of this is off mandrel practice (my lack of it) since I know scads of people that make fantastic softglass pendants. Maybe I'm just lazy...
My #2 reason is to be able to use techniques associated with blown glass - montage, inside out, reticello (not that I could pull this off), and so on. And I'm NOT going to mess around with soft glass tubing (see reason #1 above.) I love geometric designs and am fascinated by the effects people get with tubing and color.
#3 is the colors. Beautiful! Mysterious! Complex! I love them. It must be all the metal. I don't think I could deal with these colors all the time cause much of the time I want precise control over the outcome and I don't think that happens much with many of the boro colors.
Now having played with boro a little I really like the slow-motion (minor & 1 concentrator) aspect. It really does give me more time to react. And no hot glass popping all over the place (I got myself right in the lip a few weeks ago.) My first couple of efforts I ripped the bead release right off the mandrel first thing cause I wasn't letting the glass get hot enough.
Boro is intimidating though. A whole new color palette. Many chemical reactions to consider. Expensive. Nasty subliming cadmium... All in all, though, I really like it and hope to learn a whole lot more in the next year.

BTW boro gurus, what's up with boro white? GA mentions several colors as looking great over white but it doesn't look to me like they even make white. NS does. Is this a color that's frequently used? If so, which do you recommend for what? Thanks!

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 5:38am

One more, side by side in sunlight.

15275

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-27, 5:59am

Tanya... GA just came out with a color called Sno White. I haven't tried it yet, but they claim it's the best thing since sliced bread. I use Egyptian White Sands from NS. It behaves the best out of all the whites I've tried. Some batches are better than others. ;)

Addressing the dark glasses issue... I can't see squat with the darker lenses either. I would suggest more light over the work bench. I would not suggest people do what I do... I use didies or ACE lenses when I work small. I would suggest researching it for yourself before you follow my lead. They are your eyes and it's not something to mess around with. :love:

Mr. Smiley

2006-01-27, 6:00am

Carrie... your beads rock! You got some great colors... keep at it! :D

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 6:01am

Well, what do ya'll think of my first beads???
Bad/good?

FlameDancer

2006-01-27, 6:31am

Carrie, aren't Chris and Steve wonderful at MGA? They are so helpful. I hope to get up there to meet them in person soon. How did it go, picking out your own glass? I am sooo jealous!

FlameDancer

2006-01-27, 6:38am

FlameDancer

2006-01-27, 6:41am

Brent, those beads are to die for!!! I would soooo love to get those colors out of boro. Yea, yea, yea...I know, I know. P P P P P P and more P!

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 7:34am

Carrie... your beads rock! You got some great colors... keep at it! :D

Thank you thank you!!!
I will be keeping on! :cool:

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 7:38am

Carrie, aren't Chris and Steve wonderful at MGA? They are so helpful. I hope to get up there to meet them in person soon. How did it go, picking out your own glass? I am sooo jealous!

Steve was awesome! I am itching to go back even though I don't NEED any more glass!
I like the fact that I am supporting a local business too.
Picking my own rods was................unbelievable. I never thought I'd live close enough to a 'store' to do it.
I love Asheville. :love:

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 7:41am

Carrie...those are GREAT!!! Girl, you are going to take to boro like a fish does to water! Me on the other hand...well, that remains to be seen :) This striking thing has me in a tizzy! I did do a vessel the other day. I would have kept on working with it but it broke free from the release :( Lemme see if I can get a photo of it and I'll post it.

Awww thank you. I never thought I'd get any compliments on the boro or any of my beads for that matter! :-({|=
I am excited about playing w/ boro and then Mr. Smiley's class in May, woohoo.

HardwoodTrailGlass

2006-01-27, 7:43am

I almost forgot. My bead release is breaking apart, a lot of the time, if not most.

What bead release do ya'll use for boro?

Three Muses Glass

2006-01-27, 7:59am

Carrie, those are fabulous! =D> I'm completely jealous right now! Hmmm, maybe I should try a few beads instead of those big honkin things my torch can't handle.:-k :roll:

suzanne

2006-01-27, 8:05am

Very pretty Carrie! I especially like the first ones ( the ones you strung), beautifull!

I have made some boro beads wearing didys but I stopped doing that untill my new glasses arrive ( maybe today:D). I found when heating colors such as pomegranate and caramel lustre the light comming from the flame is so bright that I automaticaly shut my eyes, now that is a sign right there, I saw green spots when I turned of the torch ( as if I had looked in the bright sun ).

I am with Brent on this one, more light and my personal advice is please wear those dark lenses untill you have a better solution, I am positive that if you are only wearing didy's your eyes will be ruined sooner or later ( at least I think they will be, that is why I stopped )