View Full Interactive Version Of This Page : ::rant warning::"Weirdo-Glass" Disclosures....PLEASE!!
I'm so frustrated!!! I just purchased a bundle of three tutorials, was really excited about the content of them -- right up until I read the first one. It unexpectedly requires/recommends non-104 COE glass.
ummm...Did you tell us about this and I just missed it? I was under the impression, since nothing else was stated (that I saw, anyway) that these tutorials were made using COE 104 glass.
Finally had a chance to start reading, and the first one I opened up, "Small Shells" lists Bullseye glass rods, and then some strips of Spectrum sheet glass. YIKES!! That would have been a complete deal-breaker for me, had I known about it before making a non-refundable purchase.
I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I don't think that this is a fair thing to do. I had planned on asking questions before purchasing any more tutorials, after buying several that require/recommend TERRA. Suggesting a glass that is not even in production without giving advanced warning is not my idea of fair business practices, and neither are the materials that are recommended in this Small Shells tutorial. I'm really kicking myself for not asking, but unfortunately, I just expected a higher ethical standard from these particular authors.
$50 was hard to scrape together, but their beads look beautiful, and I felt that I'd be learning enough new things to make it worthwhile. Now, I'm concerned that I have basically flushed the $$ down the drain. I'm afraid to even take a peek at the other two tutorials - don't even want to know what surprises they might hold!
It's all fair and good to say that there will be no refunds made on digital media because there is no physical property to return. If you are going to stand behind that protection for yourselves, then you are even more honor-bound to disclose any information that could make it unexpectedly difficult or impossible for us to actually make use of your tutorials.
If I were selling something...maybe an electronics item that required several different cables, connectors, weird tools, etc. to use, I would be in big trouble if that information were not provided to potential customers BEFORE they made the purchase. It would need to be clearly written on the outside of the package, or put in the "fine print" or something to give people a fighting chance of getting what they THOUGHT they were buying.
Why aren't the tutorial writers being held to that same standard of fair and honest disclosure?
Birdy
AlivELampworK
2009-03-06, 3:32pm
I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I don't think that this is a fair thing to do. I had planned on asking questions before purchasing any more tutorials, after buying several that require/recommend TERRA. Suggesting a glass that is not even in production without giving advanced warning is not my idea of fair business practices, and neither are the materials that are recommended in this Small Shells tutorial. I'm really kicking myself for not asking, but unfortunately, I just expected a higher ethical standard from these particular authors.
birdy, i understand you're upset. have you talked to the author of these tutorials with your concern? just wondering, because putting this complaint out in the open in a big move when you may not have talked to the author, who could have settled your problem.
but on the topic of suggesting glass that is not in production.. there are glasses you can use as substitutions. if you can't get terra.. get terranova.. get another striking glass. you may not be able to make the exact bead the artist that wrote the tutorial did, but you can put your OWN spin on it.
Birdy - Perhaps you may want to contact the seller? I know that if someone is unhappy with my e-book, even tho it's stated that pdfs are not refundable, I am more than happy to refund the $ if my customer contacts me privately.
As for tutorials that recommend using Terra, you can use almost any currently available striking silver glass (Khaos, Luna 2, Terranova 2, Van Gogh, daVinci 2) and get very similar results.
Ali - you and I suggested the same thing as the same time! lol!
I bought the same three tutorials and all I've used is 104 glass. You don't need to use their glass specifications. It's just showing you how they made the bead. The glass is your choice.
I made some tiger beads and they were written for 104 COE so it must just be the shell beads?
Either way, just use your own glass. You don't need to spend money on glass that you don't already have :-)
AlivELampworK
2009-03-06, 3:38pm
I bought the same three tutorials and all I've used is 104 glass. You don't need to use their glass specifications. It's just showing you how they made the bead. The glass is your choice.
I made some tiger beads and they were written for 104 COE so it must just be the shell beads?
Either way, just use your own glass. You don't need to spend money on glass that you don't already have :-)
exactly.
beadworkstudio
2009-03-06, 3:39pm
Birdy, try using CiM colors for the shells. It's stiffer than Moretti and is a little easier. You could also make them out of a transparent color. Once you get the hang of making them, try them in Moretti. It definitely CAN be done!
In place of the sheet glass just use dk. ivory or one of the Vetrofond odd lots that's multicolored, like Honey Crunch or Avacado Marble (which is still available at several sites).
BeadMaven
2009-03-06, 3:39pm
Hi Birdy,
Using Bullseye glass is a suggestion and its what the authors use for the shells. I have worked with 104 and BE too and while the 104's will work its just the BE is a little stiffer and can (for some) be better for sculpting. I made a shell yesterday and I saw the difference between BE and 104 coes..
I saw the sheet glass suggestion and again, there are some who use that with rods but I never have.
You can still use 104 glass with the tuts! ;)
I bought the same three tutorials and all I've used is 104 glass. You don't need to use their glass specifications. It's just showing you how they made the bead. The glass is your choice.
I made some tiger beads and they were written for 104 COE so it must just be the shell beads?
Either way, just use your own glass. You don't need to spend money on glass that you don't already have :-)
I did the same thing with no problem.
I actually think it's a good thing to use different glass as it helps you to put your origional spin on what ever tutorial you are working on.
Give it a try...you may suprise yourself!
Pyro Beads
2009-03-06, 3:52pm
I bought all 3 also. I haven't had a chance to look at them yet. It doesn't bother me that they didn't use 104 glass. I figure it will work with both kinds of glass. I only have 104 and I use a HH.
Maybe if I would have read them I might have thought... oh crap! But then I would have just said.. okay going to try it any way. I figure if I can scult things out of ivory and they turn out how I want them to I can do a shell out of it too...
I think I would be more worried about the animal print one since I wanted that one to know what colors to use to get them right, but some one said they did use 104... so that's good for me.
If you are concerned about getting the same colors just ask on here. Or ask the authors what 104 colors they would suggest. I'm sure they would be happy to help you with that. I know I have asked color questions and every one is SO great to give me idea's on what colors to use.
Nanc
It's fine to say that I can just substitute colors - I know that, and it isn't my point.
I buy tutorials from certain people because they are VERY GOOD at what they do. Generally, they have tested, practiced, tested more, etc...and discovered the VERY BEST glass type and colors for that particular bead style. I'm buying the tutorial for their personal expertise on the subject, and I want to be able to follow along with the tutorial, AS WRITTEN, at least the first time as a learning experience. Then I'll happily go off and try other things.
If I wanted to make something out of yarn, I'd have to decide if I wanted to knit or to crochet, then I could buy an appropriate pattern. If I bought a pattern that appeared to be for crochet, but turned out to be knit, I'd be just as upset == yes, I could figure out how to translate it into crochet, but I thought that I was buying a crochet pattern. Do you get my point?
The reason the I'm doing this in public is because of the number of tutorials that I have purchased which have this issue. It needs to be public -- this is an ongoing problem that needs to be resolved. I don't want any other lampwork newbie to spend their money and not get what they thought they were buying.
Unfortunately, this particular batch of tutorials just happened to be the thing that finally hit my flash point, and I do apologize to the authors for using their tutorials as an example of the situation.
Generally, I approach things quietly, am very careful not to hurt feelings, upset anyone, etc. ..... and my problem goes ignored and unresolved. I've had that happen with sellers in the Garage Sale who have not shipped as stated, sent things not as described, taken 3 months to ship, sent poorly packed items that broke in transit, etc. and then refused to make good on things. I've felt horrible when I've seen them selling other items, and worried about the next person that wasted their money buying from them. Sometimes you just have to speak up about things for the general good. I know that I'm going to get blasted for doing this, but that is how strongly I feel about this issue.
Birdy
Rebekah
2009-03-06, 4:08pm
I can understand your wanting to alert tut publishers to the fact that some people might prefer it if the supplies were listed in the tutorial "What You're Getting" page, but there's a MUCH better way to go about it than throwing a hissy. You can speak up without coming across the way you did in your original post.
How about:
I just purchased a few tutorials and love the information I received, but would like to offer a suggestion to the authors. Can you please specify in the ad which COE is to be used and if there are any specialty glass or tools that I need to make this piece?
Much better than:
"I'm so frustrated!!! I just purchased a bundle of three tutorials, was really excited about the content of them -- right up until I read the first one. It unexpectedly requires/recommends non-104 COE glass.
ummm...Did you tell us about this and I just missed it? I was under the impression, since nothing else was stated (that I saw, anyway) that these tutorials were made using COE 104 glass.
Finally had a chance to start reading, and the first one I opened up, "Small Shells" lists Bullseye glass rods, and then some strips of Spectrum sheet glass. YIKES!! That would have been a complete deal-breaker for me, had I known about it before making a non-refundable purchase.
I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I don't think that this is a fair thing to do. I had planned on asking questions before purchasing any more tutorials, after buying several that require/recommend TERRA. Suggesting a glass that is not even in production without giving advanced warning is not my idea of fair business practices, and neither are the materials that are recommended in this Small Shells tutorial. I'm really kicking myself for not asking, but unfortunately, I just expected a higher ethical standard from these particular authors."
For shiz? Just because they didn't say which glass you're supposed to use, their ethics are being called into question?
](*,)
Birdy,
I have to agree. I just bought the tutorials myself and am surprised that the instructions are for Bullseye. Like you, I believe that is something that should be stated clearly in the description of the tutorials . . .
I know you can substitute - you can substitute all sorts of things in life, but that's not the point.
I ain't going to blast you :-)
Rebekah
2009-03-06, 4:12pm
Has anyone actually asked for a refund before posting in this thread? Contacted the author privately?
Again, there's a NICE way to go about this where NO ONE gets a hurt feeling. (I say feeling because I only have one.)
Rebekah,
I just wrote and requested a refund. I'm sure there won't be a problem because I hadn't even gotten the turorials emailed to me yet. And I'm sure there won't be a problem as the gals who wrote it are super nice, however, I do think it is important that potential purchasers know this information about the tutorials being sold.
I am definitely not calling into question anyone's ethics here.
Lisa
I can understand your wanting to alert tut publishers to the fact that some people might prefer it if the supplies were listed in the tutorial "What You're Getting" page, but there's a MUCH better way to go about it than throwing a hissy. You can speak up without coming across the way you did in your original post.
How about:
I just purchased a few tutorials and love the information I received, but would like to offer a suggestion to the authors. Can you please specify in the ad which COE is to be used and if there are any specialty glass or tools that I need to make this piece?
Much better than:
For shiz? Just because they didn't say which glass you're supposed to use, their ethics are being called into question?
](*,)
I apologized for going about it so roughly, but sometimes frustration takes over, and a person doesn't have the time or energy to try to meet everybody's standards of propriety. With a group of this size, it wouldn't matter what I said or how I said it, somebody would be in a snit over it, - there are so many people with so many opinions. My personal choice was just to speak honestly, from my heart, and I'm willing to take the fallout from it.
That was also why I titled the post as a "rant" - it was fair warning that this was going to be my personal opinion and would probably not be in a politically correct format. If you chose to disagree with me, or my methods, that is perfectly fine. I'm not trying to change your mind about anything.
So, thank-you for your lesson in proper manners and deportment in a public forum.
Birdy
I do understand your frustration...
Even though I think you can substitute glass it is probably a good idea for tut writers to let people know up front what kind of glass they are using.
But I an sure that it was not the tut writers intention to deceive in anyway, and if you’re unhappy I would bet you can ask for and receive a refund..
Rebekah
2009-03-06, 4:28pm
Hey Birdy,
You're welcome for the lesson. I'm nothing if not full of proper manners and deportment. I don't even put my elbows on the dinner table until AFTER dessert. I NEVER swear when my mouth is closed and it would be unheard of for me to pick my nose in public.
You don't have to be politically correct or not raise hell if you're not getting something you paid for. Shit, go ahead and pitch a fit. I would too.
This just doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. You got the tutorial that you paid for, it just wasn't exactly what you were expecting. No harm, no foul. Contact the author. If you just wanted to rant, maybe a better place for that would be the bathroom, not in the tutorials to purchase section. If you wanted to provide a "heads up" for fellow tutorial purchasers, here is the best place for it.
I don't really have an issue with your bitching, I just don't understand calling into question the author's ethics. If you really want to use a knitting analogy, this is really more like "I was expecting to use cotton yarn and have to use silk to make this hat".
...and discovered the VERY BEST glass type and colors for that particular bead style. I'm buying the tutorial for their personal expertise on the subject, and I want to be able to follow along with the tutorial, AS WRITTEN, at least the first time as a learning experience.
So, I'm not going to say one way or the other regarding how you went about handling this...but I did want to say one thing. How do you know the authors suggested the VERY BEST glass type for their tutorials? I mean, maybe they suggested it because that's the type of glass they typically work with...*shrug* Or, do the tutorials actually state they chose that glass because of its specific nature? Just curious here...
I suggest we stay on point and not get snarky.
If I'm being snarky...my apologies. I thought I was asking a fairly legit question.
OK, I know that this sounds really stupid....but.....
It never even occured to me to ask any of the tutorial writers for a refund! The "fine print" says "no refund", and I accepted that when I made the purchase. It was part of the deal, and I knew that up front.
Maybe that is the entire point of this -- "I knew that up front." No, it isn't a "maybe" at all. It's the entire point. I'm willing to live up to anything that I knowingly agree to, whether it was clearly stated or just implied. In the case of tutorials, unless something else is stated, my personal impression of what is "implied" is:
1. COE is 104, unless stated in advance.
2. All materials and supplies are available for purchase through normal retail channels at the copyright date on the tutorial.
3. Tutorial will be about what is pictured on the front page or in the advertisment.
4. Tutorial will be in English unless stated otherwise.
5. The "implied" skill level is Beginner, and author will advise if higher skill levels are required.
6. Basic lampworking tools are adequate to follow along with the tutorial, unless specific tools are stated in advance.
There are obviously many more things that I would like to feel safe in assuming are true, but those are the most important points to me.
I don't have the ability to spend extended periods of time on the torch figuring everything out from scratch - that is why I buy books and tutorials. I am unable to travel to attend classes, don't know any other lampworkers in my area to share ideas with, and am totally over the moon when a tutorial is released that offers me an opportunity to learn from the experience of more advanced artists.
I'm laying here, recovering from my second major spinal fracture in just over 2 years (and the third time in all) and have to ration out the minutes that I can spend sitting at the torch. I can lay down and read or use the computer, and can take heavy-duty pain meds while doing those things. Can't do that at the torch. I have to rely on books and tutorials to fill in the gaps for me that my body won't let me struggle through on my own. It is, honestly and truly, very important to me that I know what I'm buying, and only spend money on things that will be of use. We all have limitations and basic requirements and needs - having true and accurate disclosure of products is important to me.
My ways may not have been the best, but, since I'm just a plain old human, I'll probably never be perfect. I just muddle through the best that I can. If my ways offend you, that is unfortunate. Are your ways always perfect? I applaud you if they are!
I didn't ask for my money back - I'm just asking that all tutorial writers think very carefully about what things are taken for granted or are implied, and take the time and care to spell out in advance, those things in their tutorials which don't fit that list. I don't want them to give away any of their secrets in advance, just tell me honestly if something "different" is going to be needed to do the tutorial exactly as written. If it can't be done as written, it isn't a "tutorial"!
Wishing for more Kevlar,
Birdy
I don't think it sounds stupid at all, and I'm much the same way you are. If it's stated 'no refund' then that's what I go by...it never would have dawned on me either to ask for a refund.
Here's what I'd like to do...I'd like to PayPal you $50...should you get a refund on these tutorials, great! No need to send any money back to me, get yourself a couple more tutorials. I know what you're going through what with meds and not being able to torch, with pain and not being able to torch for very long, and not being able to take classes. This is my gift to you...I'd love for you to accept it. Please PM me your PayPal addy and I'll get it right over to you.
I take it all back, Alex. You are DEFINITELY not a snarky person.
Lisa, I can be...but this wasn't one of those times.
Diane Woodall
2009-03-06, 5:37pm
Hello everyone,
I just logged onto LE and saw this thread about our tutorials and wanted to see if I could clear the air a bit. Birdy, first let me say that I am very sorry if you are disappointed with our tutorials and we would welcome your comments and suggestions if you would contact us about them. Anyone who has ever dealt with me or Becky knows that we are very reasonable and would have gladly talked to you on the phone or via e-mail to see if we could help you.
When we wrote our shell tutorials we wanted to be as honest as possible with our customers about the type of glass we used because we sincerely want everyone to be able to get the best possible results. Because these were our first tutorials we didn't anticipate that there would be a problem with our recommendations that you use Bullseye or Spectrum glass to make the shells. It is only a recommendation and many of our students use 104 for their shells with no problems at all. But it would be unfair of us not to tell you that we use Bullseye when we know that it produces the crispest and most easily sculpted shells.
Let me assure you that you CAN make every one of our shells using 104 glass. We've done it many times. You'll get good results. You don't' have to go out and purchase Bullseye just to try these designs. Please use what you have in your studio. We were simply trying to give you the very best advice we could from our years of experience. I thought we had done a good job of explaining this in our tutorial.
Please send me a PM and give me your e-mail address and I'll contact you in private. Becky and I want our customers to be happy.
Sorry my post was so long, but I just hate to see anyone upset over something that could have been cleared up with one short e-mail or phone call. Becky is out of pocket today and tonight because a dear friend's husband was killed in a motorcycle accident last Sunday and she is spending some time with her. I know she'll take care of any e-mails when she returns.
Diane
Birdy, I agree with you completely that a tutorial should list everything needed before you purchase it and I would be just as angry as you, but not in this instance.
It seems that you might be a relative newbie to some of the more senior members to this board, and I'm not stating that as a fault but rather as an observation from your post counts. I'm saying this because I'm sure, as many of the other posters in this thread have, that the authors of these tuts would never want to cause you this distress and would have been happy if you contacted them with your concerns.
You know, I could absolutely see myself getting caught up in wanting to write a perfect tutorial, taking excellent pictures and writing the content so that it was easy for everyone to understand and then not even thinking about mentioning the different types of glass needed. Whether it was me not thinking to do it or because I just assumed that people would know that I worked with different types of glass, I really could see myself doing it and would be thrilled for someone to point it out to me.
I hope you get this worked out and if you would like, I can send you some of the glass that you need to try the beads. I did stained glass for 20 years and have all the spectrum you might like and probably the other colors as well.
I don't think it sounds stupid at all, and I'm much the same way you are. If it's stated 'no refund' then that's what I go by...it never would have dawned on me either to ask for a refund.
Here's what I'd like to do...I'd like to PayPal you $50...should you get a refund on these tutorials, great! No need to send any money back to me, get yourself a couple more tutorials. I know what you're going through what with meds and not being able to torch, with pain and not being able to torch for very long, and not being able to take classes. This is my gift to you...I'd love for you to accept it. Please PM me your PayPal addy and I'll get it right over to you.
wow, alex, that's incredibly generous & thoughtful of you.
& i also thought your original question was completely legit.
DesertDreamer
2009-03-06, 5:54pm
I think there's a very valid and IMPORTANT point at the heart of this....if you need a special tool or special glass in order to follow the tutorial, it might be a good, considerate idea for authors to say something...maybe a "special ingredients" list or something, prior to buying the tut.
Sort of the way good "assembly required" items will tell you on the box that you need a power drill and hammer to put something together. I hate having to go to the hardware store twice because I didn't know I'd need something else.
I do believe that sample pages and supplies lists should be available for all pdf tutorials before purchase.
However, I do not believe that NOT having a supplies list is an ethical shortcoming. Seems more like an oversight, or something an author just might not think of doing. I don't believe that authors with no supplies list are trying to trick people into buying their tutorial and then refusing to refund moneys paid.
Rebekah
2009-03-06, 6:00pm
Mary, I love your new banner! Very cool!
Artistic License
2009-03-06, 6:09pm
Birdy I have an idea with this problem. Sometimes others should suggest another option to a problem rather than ragging on someone in how they approach their given situation. I think I know who's tutorials you purchased. I just purchased one of hers this past week. She is a very nice lady and I'm pretty sure if you explain your situation to her, and perhaps ask her for permission to resell this tutorial to someone else who might better use it given it's use of particular glass. You've got nothing to lose.
Red
Artistic License
2009-03-06, 6:15pm
Alex this is a very lovely offer you have proposed.
yellowbird
2009-03-06, 6:28pm
I think Sheila's suggestion to use cim glass was a good one.
Just thinking of all the possible choices . perfect for shells.
I know that isn't the point here.
I agree tools and glass needed would be very helpful information to have in advance.
feel better Birdy
I don't think it sounds stupid at all, and I'm much the same way you are. If it's stated 'no refund' then that's what I go by...it never would have dawned on me either to ask for a refund.
Here's what I'd like to do...I'd like to PayPal you $50...should you get a refund on these tutorials, great! No need to send any money back to me, get yourself a couple more tutorials. I know what you're going through what with meds and not being able to torch, with pain and not being able to torch for very long, and not being able to take classes. This is my gift to you...I'd love for you to accept it. Please PM me your PayPal addy and I'll get it right over to you.
Alex9 - That offer is just way too nice! Can't take you up on it, but it was so sweet that it made me cry. Thank-you so very much for your kindness. It really made my day.
Blessings,
Birdy
Becky Mason
2009-03-06, 9:44pm
Hi Everyone,
I just got home from a wake for a friend who was killed last Sunday in a motorcycle accident and had a message on my answering machine from Diane alerting me to this post on LE. I have just read through all of the posts and I have to say that I’m both shocked and hurt by Birdy’s post, and bolstered and warmed by most of the responses from everyone else. I know that Diane has already responded, but I feel the need to also respond since I too have been personally hurt.
Birdy, clearly you are not happy, but your choice to make your unhappiness a public attack against our integrity I find baffling. What you have done is very hurtful. Diane and I are really nice people with lots of friends who are bead makers. We are both huge supporters of Beads of Courage, and have poured years of our lives into making glass beads and helping other newbie bead makers learn this wonderful art form. For me to come onto LE and see this kind of post brings me to tears. What you have done has hurt both of us deeply, especially since you would have found us very helpful had you just contacted us directly.
When I emailed you the tutorials you purchased, I offered you the option to contact me if you had any questions. Here is the exact wording of the email that I sent you with your 3 tutorials attached.
Birdy,
Here you go - the right handed version of all 3 tutorials. If you are among the first 50 buyers of these three tutorials your name will be entered into the raffles for the beads.
Diane and I hope you have fun with these, and if you have any questions, please let me know.
Becky
Why you chose to question our integrity in front of our friends, colleagues, and customers is beyond me. But not only did you question OUR ethics by saying “…I just expected a higher ethical standard from these particular authors”, you also called Bullseye and Sprectrum glass “weirdo” glass. I’m sure the folks at Bullseye and Spectrum, and all of the wonderful distributors of their glass, many of whom are members of LE, would find it highly offensive to see their glass referred to as “weirdo.”
I guess I just can’t understand WHY you chose to make such a spectacle of something that could have been handled in a civil and friendly manner through one simple email. Had you sent me an email and said, “Becky, as I’m reading through the 2 shell tutorials, I see that you and Diane made many of your beads with Bullseye and Spectrum glass. I don’t have any of either of these types of glass and I can’t afford to buy any. Are there any 104 colors that I can use instead?” I would have emailed you back, and probably posted something on LE for the benefit of others saying, “Birdy, of course you can use 104 COE. I’ve made hundreds of seashells with 104 COE. If you’re looking for something in light caramel color like the color of the small shells we made in the tutorial, try making a striped or twisted cane using ivory and light transparent amber. For the throat of your shells you can use opaque pink, or if you have any CIM pink, you can use that for the throat. The colors will be a little different than the colors we used for the tutorial beads, but shells in nature have all sorts of different colors, so don’t stress over matching your colors to those in the tutorial. We’re not trying to teach you how to make OUR exact beads. We’re trying to teach you how to make our “style” of beads. I’m attaching a photo of some of my 104 COE shells. We prefer 96 and 90 COE, but you can still make great looking shells with 104 COE.” This is exactly how I would have answered a civil inquiry from you.
But you never gave me or Diane the opportunity to help you. I’m hoping that maybe your state of mind is not right because of the pain medicine that you’re on and that you’ll wake up and find out your medication made you say some hurtful things.
For the rest of you who have either purchased the shell tutorials and haven’t tried them yet, or are thinking of buying them, I can’t end without pointing out once more that the type of glass we used for the seashells in our tutorials is only a SUGGESTION!!!!! It is not a requirement. We could just as easily have made the beads for the tutorial in 104 COE and said, “try making these in 96 or 90 COE for a variety of looks. “
What we wanted to teach you with these tutorials, as is the case with almost every bead making tutorial on the market, is our “technique.” Many of you got this idea, that you’re learning a technique. You’re not learning how to make Diane Woodall and Becky Mason beads. We want you to make YOUR beads. And when it comes to seashells, my gosh, there are literally THOUSANDS of shell styles to play with, so just go and HAVE FUN. Many of you have sent us private emails to let us know how much you’re enjoying the tutorials, and we thank you.
Below are examples of some of the 104 COE shells I made several years ago before we developed the more refined designs that we teach you in these tutorials; but as you can see, you don't have to have 96 or 90 COE for shells.
158997
158996
158995
:::clipped just to save space:::
When we wrote our shell tutorials we wanted to be as honest as possible with our customers about the type of glass we used because we sincerely want everyone to be able to get the best possible results.::clipped to save space::: But it would be unfair of us not to tell you that we use Bullseye when we know that it produces the crispest and most easily sculpted shells.
Diane
Diane: I appreciate your kind and calm response. You perfectly stated the very thing that upsets me about this situation. I buy tutorials to learn the fine details that are discovered with time and lots of experience. Your shells are beautiful, mostly because you are talented and have practiced them, but in good part because you have learned what are the very best materials to make them from.
This is the part that very few of you seem to get: The tutorials that I have complained about are all done with the materials that the writers have determined is the best. That's the good part. The bad part is that I have purchased the tutorials with the expectation that, even though I lack the experience and talent, I can at least practice the technique using the materials that the author believes yields the best results. That's the information that I buy tutorials for --- what was really used to get some beautiful results. When I buy a tutorial and THEN find out that I will not be able to replicate the materials, it makes me feel that the POTENTIAL to make something as lovely has been withheld from me.
It is fine and good to say that other materials can be substituted, but, to the best of my memory, in the tutorials that I have purchased so far where this has been an issue, none of the authors have made a demo bead using the alternative materials. That feels like a falsehood to me. It feel like they are saying, "THIS is what makes the bead absolutely perfect, and I'm only going to make them in the way that I know is best. However, if you have to, you could make do with something else." Sometimes suggestions are made, but sometimes not. And this is what really gets me -- none of the tutorials that I'm referring to actually have pictures of the beads being made with the substitute glass. If it's such a great substitute, and you know that the glass you recommend is no longer made, difficult to get, not likely to be on hand, etc., why aren't the tutorials being created using those "perfectly adequate" substitutes? The reason is most likely because they just don't make as beautiful of a bead. Yes, I can make a bead using a substitute, but I can't make THAT bead, as I can't get those materials.
Diane, there didn't seem to be any reason to contact you about this. You clearly stated that you would not give refunds. OK, I agreed to that. You said that other glass could be used, but didn't use it yourself. I don't want to contact you to have you tell me what kind of stuff I can use to make do. I guess the feeling that this all gives me is that, knowing that you use materials that I can't get is offensive because if I wanted to guess what to use, or try out different substitutes, I wouldn't have bothered buying the tutorial. I would have just looked at the picture for free, and gone to the torch and made my own version of it. I buy the tutorials with the expectation that it is as close as possible to taking a class from a wonderful artist. In a class, I would expect to have access to the materials that the artist would use, not second-rate substitutes. If materials were not provided, then a supply list would be, and I just wouldn't take the class if it were impossible for me to get the materials.
It looks like the part of my post that is offending people the most is that I made reference to ethics. The reason I said that is: If a tutorial writer has years of experience, has been paid to teach classes, especially on that same subject, then they certainly know what materials are needed, and know how important it is for a student to know what they are getting in to. How would everyone feel if that same author offered an in-person class that appeared to be based on 104, then got to the class, told the students that it is actually being taught using boro, but that they could do an ok job with 104. Not as good as the "real thing", but it would be ok. And then do all of the demo using boro, not the substitute 104 glass.
Does anybody at all understand the point that I'm trying to make? I'm beginning to feel like a total lunatic!
Birdy
Diane: I appreciate your kind and calm response. You perfectly stated the very thing that upsets me about this situation. I buy tutorials to learn the fine details that are discovered with time and lots of experience. Your shells are beautiful, mostly because you are talented and have practiced them, but in good part because you have learned what are the very best materials to make them from.
This is the part that very few of you seem to get: The tutorials that I have complained about are all done with the materials that the writers have determined is the best. That's the good part. The bad part is that I have purchased the tutorials with the expectation that, even though I lack the experience and talent, I can at least practice the technique using the materials that the author believes yields the best results. That's the information that I buy tutorials for --- what was really used to get some beautiful results. When I buy a tutorial and THEN find out that I will not be able to replicate the materials, it makes me feel that the POTENTIAL to make something as lovely has been withheld from me.
It is fine and good to say that other materials can be substituted, but, to the best of my memory, in the tutorials that I have purchased so far where this has been an issue, none of the authors have made a demo bead using the alternative materials. That feels like a falsehood to me. It feel like they are saying, "THIS is what makes the bead absolutely perfect, and I'm only going to make them in the way that I know is best. However, if you have to, you could make do with something else." Sometimes suggestions are made, but sometimes not. And this is what really gets me -- none of the tutorials that I'm referring to actually have pictures of the beads being made with the substitute glass. If it's such a great substitute, and you know that the glass you recommend is no longer made, difficult to get, not likely to be on hand, etc., why aren't the tutorials being created using those "perfectly adequate" substitutes? The reason is most likely because they just don't make as beautiful of a bead. Yes, I can make a bead using a substitute, but I can't make THAT bead, as I can't get those materials.
Diane, there didn't seem to be any reason to contact you about this. You clearly stated that you would not give refunds. OK, I agreed to that. You said that other glass could be used, but didn't use it yourself. I don't want to contact you to have you tell me what kind of stuff I can use to make do. I guess the feeling that this all gives me is that, knowing that you use materials that I can't get is offensive because if I wanted to guess what to use, or try out different substitutes, I wouldn't have bothered buying the tutorial. I would have just looked at the picture for free, and gone to the torch and made my own version of it. I buy the tutorials with the expectation that it is as close as possible to taking a class from a wonderful artist. In a class, I would expect to have access to the materials that the artist would use, not second-rate substitutes. If materials were not provided, then a supply list would be, and I just wouldn't take the class if it were impossible for me to get the materials.
It looks like the part of my post that is offending people the most is that I made reference to ethics. The reason I said that is: If a tutorial writer has years of experience, has been paid to teach classes, especially on that same subject, then they certainly know what materials are needed, and know how important it is for a student to know what they are getting in to. How would everyone feel if that same author offered an in-person class that appeared to be based on 104, then got to the class, told the students that it is actually being taught using boro, but that they could do an ok job with 104. Not as good as the "real thing", but it would be ok. And then do all of the demo using boro, not the substitute 104 glass.
Does anybody at all understand the point that I'm trying to make? I'm beginning to feel like a total lunatic!
Birdy
Since you asked, no, I don't understand your point. I also don't understand your continued defense of the use of the word "ethics" either - and your example of boro/104 seems silly.
Rebekah
2009-03-06, 10:48pm
This is the part that very few of you seem to get: The tutorials that I have complained about are all done with the materials that the writers have determined is the best. That's the good part. The bad part is that I have purchased the tutorials with the expectation that, even though I lack the experience and talent, I can at least practice the technique using the materials that the author believes yields the best results. That's the information that I buy tutorials for --- what was really used to get some beautiful results. When I buy a tutorial and THEN find out that I will not be able to replicate the materials, it makes me feel that the POTENTIAL to make something as lovely has been withheld from me.
It is fine and good to say that other materials can be substituted, but, to the best of my memory, in the tutorials that I have purchased so far where this has been an issue, none of the authors have made a demo bead using the alternative materials. That feels like a falsehood to me. It feel like they are saying, "THIS is what makes the bead absolutely perfect, and I'm only going to make them in the way that I know is best. However, if you have to, you could make do with something else." Sometimes suggestions are made, but sometimes not. And this is what really gets me -- none of the tutorials that I'm referring to actually have pictures of the beads being made with the substitute glass. If it's such a great substitute, and you know that the glass you recommend is no longer made, difficult to get, not likely to be on hand, etc., why aren't the tutorials being created using those "perfectly adequate" substitutes? The reason is most likely because they just don't make as beautiful of a bead. Yes, I can make a bead using a substitute, but I can't make THAT bead, as I can't get those materials.
It's kind of amazing that you're expected to get a pass for throwing a mother of a fit because you can't be expected to be perfect all of the time but are expecting the authors to write the perfect tutorial for YOU with all of the guidelines YOU outline.
I kind of feel bad for coming back to this thread but you're coming off sounding pretty entitled and not exhibiting any of the behavior you expect.
Your basic premise is understood. All you really want is for the authors to give you a rough outline of what needs to be used before you purchase the tut. Period, end of story. Easy enough.
It looks like the part of my post that is offending people the most is that I made reference to ethics. The reason I said that is: If a tutorial writer has years of experience, has been paid to teach classes, especially on that same subject, then they certainly know what materials are needed, and know how important it is for a student to know what they are getting in to. How would everyone feel if that same author offered an in-person class that appeared to be based on 104, then got to the class, told the students that it is actually being taught using boro, but that they could do an ok job with 104. Not as good as the "real thing", but it would be ok. And then do all of the demo using boro, not the substitute 104 glass.
The difference here is that you would show up to the class and either expect the teacher to have the supplies for you if they didn't tell you beforehand or you would be screwed. With a tutorial, you can purchase the supplies you need AT ANY TIME. You can put this tutorial on a shelf if you don't want to use 104 to make the shells and pull it back out again when you buy some Bullseye or Spectrum. As far as I can tell, the pictures that Becky posted are as good or better in 104 as they would be in the Bullseye.
Birdy,
I happen to think you are a bit out of line here. I think you should have talked to the people you got the tutorial from about this before you came here to the forum and made your comments. I can see you may be frustrated about not having the money to get the exact glass they use in there tutorial but it in know way keeps you from making the beautiful shell beads that they teach in there tutorial. I really think you have handled this badly. I think it goes without saying that you may need to buy things that are used in a tutorial that you may not have on hand maybe you should have asked before you bought it.
I also feel that if you talked with them about your concerns they would have been more than happy to work something out with you.
The way you have handled this is really a bit rude. To call people's integrity into question before you have even given them a chance to work with you is just not nice.
And just for a bit more information. I have taken lots of classes with a lot of wonderful teachers and each one uses there own tools and glasses you never get a full list of every thing that will be used in the class and often find that if you want to do certain things you need to get more tools or supplies.
I think you seem to think that just because you order a tutorial you should just be able to walk out to your studio and make it. If you have such a tight budget maybe it is your responsibility to find out if you may need to get more tools, glass or supplies than you are prepared to buy.
Best of luck to you,
John
andreajane
2009-03-06, 11:52pm
Since the tutorial writers in question are not vendors of the glass used in their tutorials, the ethics issue in this case is completely irrelevant. It's not like they have anything to gain if someone decides to buy the glass they recommend. And the idea that they are deliberately trying to mislead others by "tricking" them into buying their tutorials just seems a little paranoid to me.
I'm sure it's frustrating to buy a tutorial and find out one doesn't have the materials/tools on hand, but what I don't understand is why only sellers/teachers/vendors in our industry seem to be held responsible for communication. Just about every purchase we make requires at least a little research on our part, doesn't it? Even groceries.
Andrea
HOLY CRAP?! Is this the public lynching of a paying CUSTOMER?
I don't believe what I just read.
AKDesigns
2009-03-07, 12:03am
I'm kinda shocked by both parties actually.
suzanne
2009-03-07, 1:50am
Okay I think I see a tutorial different then you do Birdy. A tutorial to me is a guide on how to make a particular design. It totally doesn't matter if the shell is made in bullseye, moretti, boro or satake for all I care.
If a design requires a specific sort of glass it's my experience that this is always mentioned by the author in question ( and they always come up with alternatives if this color is a hard to find color)
I don't see the problem at all since this shell tutorial was meant for the technique of the shells, they didn't sell a particular color recipe without mentioning it was bullseye only, they sold one of their designs wich can be executed in any kind of glass you like.
I'm sorry you feel taken but I think you should have contacted the seller in private.
If I wanted to make something out of yarn, I'd have to decide if I wanted to knit or to crochet, then I could buy an appropriate pattern.
While I haven't read the whole thread, I beg to differ. I have NEVER bought a pattern to crochet or knit anything (and I can tell you that DD has tried very hard to talk me out of things I made years and years ago, before my hands started giving out. Things of the size of dresses).
Tutorials are something entirely different to patterns. They show or teach you a technique. Tutorials are to teach techniques. Patterns are to copy.
Techniques I can learn by watching and/or PPP, reading books or tutorials. Patterns I can just vaguely follow, and I have crocheted a coat, a strapless dress that's mostly transparent in a lot of places, well designed as to where not to be, knitted a form fitting dress as well as cable sweaters and Norwegian patterns (without ever buying a pattern).
For lack of local classes I love to watch Joe (of Avenuebeads) torch whenever I can make time to do so (the time difference is often prohibitive for me).
charmmenlilly
2009-03-07, 3:41am
:roll:
Birdy,
YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS! I have all three tutorials, and they are explained very well! Besides, it dosn't take a rocket scientist to understand that you may use any glass you prefer. Diane and Becky clearly stated in the tutorial to use stiffer glass as a suggestion. MY GOODNESS .......YOU ARE BEING TOO HARSH!
Use your energy on something a little more constructive....GO MAKE SOME BEADS, HAVE SOME FUN, AND QUIT WHINING!
PLEASE....How about a little imagination, creativity and some good Common Sense! It's people like you that make a person question if they even want to share there skills and knowledge in a tutorial. A tutorial is simply to learn the technique.
Shelly C.
Forgive me for jumping in, but this is a good example for defining what is purchased when you buy a tutorial. As I understand the tutorial conundrum,presented many a time by many a glass artist among you, the argument is that "refining" of a certain bead type, sculpture type,etc becomes the sole property of the "discovering" artist, subject to the same protection and status as Edisons lightbulb. That may or may not be, but that's not the dogfight I'm looking to roll around in today.(just the main premise for my opinion on the "problem" Birdy has with the tutorial she purchased)
The argument for tutorial sales is one of ownership of a concept that produces an artform that is recognizable to a particular artist . The tutorial's premise is to "share" the process with others. The PROCESS !!! If someone needs the exact color,shape,or
composition of someone elses work, then buy that artist's finished work. The tutorial, any tutorial , is only a means to an end, the road to travel on a journey. I can see listing any special tools one may employ on the journey, but glass type or exact color schemes, not nessecary.Even in the same glass, we all work in somewhat diff. temps. The glass can be stiff or soupy and can mimic different glass types. But what is needed is the initial approache to a particular form.Your own artistic juices should flow strong enough to motor on from there.
So is it a licence to copy, or a road map to a pretty vista. I think the road map. If it's percieved as a licence to copy,I would guess the question of royalties aren't far behind.
As I've confessed before, I'm not totally opposed to tutorial sales, I've purchased tut's myself (Note to Pyper:Your eyecane's are incredible,my Goddess!) and immediately stray from the text after reading.I don't want to be Pyper,I just need help with some forks in the road. And I'm not pulling Pyper pro or con into my argument, just that her tuts are a good example of process sharing rather than copying.
So Birdy, get a grip. Look inward.There's something there or you wouldn't be at a point comfortable enough to complain.Check out the map, gas up the car and begin a journey.
In you.
Kevin
Sounds to me like this centers on a person's expectation of a tutorial. If I purchase a tutorial in order to learn the TECHNIQUE, I'm looking to see how the artist manipulates and shapes the glass, encourages reactions, etc. to get the end result.
If I purchase a tutorial to learn to make the EXACT bead the artist created, it stands to reason I would want to use the exact tools and glasses used in the tutorial.
Not to rehash the volumnous posts about this, I get tutorials to learn the technique as a springboard to improve and increase my skills. This is different than, say, a wire wrapping tutorial where I would expect I need to use the specified types/gauges or wire and the specified tool to get a similar result.
I purchase tutorials to expand my knowledge in the lampwork process. When I got AR's batik tut, I got it to learn more about reactions in glass to get the desired effect. Not one of my beads looked like Anne's, and I probably couldn't have "copied" one of hers if I tried. When I saw the cool things I could make happen, it got me thinking, "if I tried this other color, or this other frit, how will the glass behave then?"
If your goal is to copy the beads in the tut, I feel you are limiting yourself and your skills, and really short changing yourself of some fantastic "ah ha!" moments and happy accidents. But if you plan to try to reproduce the beads exactly, you need to be prepared to gather the necessary supplies.
If this thread keeps up NO one is going to want to make tutorials anymore. It's sad really.
I'm out of the thread now but am going to put my two cents in.
There are only a few beads that state using bullseye or Spectrum. The one's I've read ARE 104 COE.
I made a few. I understand that we would like to go word for word and color for color when were first learning BUT....is it really that big of a deal?
I'm with Alex....I'll pay for the tutorial if this thread just STOPS!
ShellyD
2009-03-07, 5:57am
Well after seeing another flambasting of note whether it be right or wrong - I've had enough!! All I can say is these threads are making me very hesitant to purchase tutorials and I think I've purchased my last one.
I agree that Birdy should have contacted the tut writes first but watching the direction that this thread is going is quite simply SAD!! Some of you (and yes I used the generalisation of 'you') should be ashamed of yourselves and of the flambasting you have felt to dish out.
It would have been nice to know beforehand that Bullseye was the glass of choice
If 104 was also a choice it would have been nice to have pictures of those as well as recommendations as to colors......
just sayin'
granny
glassactcc
2009-03-07, 8:06am
Wow, I just finished a tutorial. This makes me very hesitant to even offer it. It does not though, make me hesitant to buy one. I would have figured the glass issue out for myself or asked the author! Seems like your always screwed on this forum no matter how nice or helpful you are. Maybe the auhtors should have to show the whole tut before selling it just to make sure no one has a problem with it. Get it critiqued by EVERYONE and make sure EVERYONE says it's ok to sell. Maybe ask permission to sell it first? Otherwise, this happens.
Once again, I think there is a lot to be learned from this thread, not that I think the "rant" was appropriate, but I do believe it brings up some good points, although not the ones necessarily that the OP probably expected.
Most tutorial authors are experienced glass beadmakers and can make their beads with different glasses with ease. I think more experience glassworkers realize that the glasses are pretty much the same, but have to be worked a little different to achieve the same results. I can make my dragons with BE and with 104. It absolutely makes no difference, though I am more familiar with that "weirdo" glass called Bullseye and its reactions.
I think what needs to be kept in mind when creating a tutorial is that we really should define what type of tutorial it is, technique or pattern. There is a big difference, and if someone buys the tutorial as a pattern, then they could feel disappointed by the fact that they do not have the exact supplies. Perhaps pattern authors should put together an optional kit with the exact glasses/tools needed to complete the project. I've seen that done in the aforementioned knitting and crocheting pattern projects.
However, I think most experienced glass beadmakers will be buying the tutorials to learn techniques and it matters very little what kind of glass is used. It all leads to the same place, knowledge of how to handle glass.
Tutorials that offer a technique that can expand someones knowledge base will always have a market.I don't see any responses that where incorrect as to the question of Birdie getting short-changed with her purchase of 3 techniques, which was her initial claim. Taking the time to experiment with colors, and their reactions with other colors,as well as searching for the treasure trove of older threads on the subject, will result in pieces that exceed the beauty of the originals. Get a grip,kids. Birdie's premise, that the tut's are of no value to her as-is due to the choice of glass, is flawed.
Quote from etsy ......
Focal Shells (fan shell, conch shell, sand dollar) NOTE: We use some Bullseye, Spectrum and Moretti/Vetrofond glass in our tutorial, but you can use any soft glass of your choice.
Ummmmmmm whats the problem ? Or was this added after the start of this thread ?
Quote from etsy ......
Focal Shells (fan shell, conch shell, sand dollar) NOTE: We use some Bullseye, Spectrum and Moretti/Vetrofond glass in our tutorial, but you can use any soft glass of your choice.
Ummmmmmm whats the problem ? Or was this added after the start of this thread ?
I believe that was added afterward...
I am happy with the tutorials, I think I can and will learn a lot from them
Just dissapointed in the fact that I have no Bullseye and don't plan on getting any in the near future, I am on a HH and have enough trouble with melting 104 lol!
I'm sure at some point I will try to match up some of the 104 colors with those of the bullseye line...or just take a stab at it....but it would have been nice to try to make one like pictured in the tutorial first....
granny
You know I understand that Birdy may have felt disappointed and feels she did not have the information up front that is important to her. If you look at the description of there tut is says that it uses BE, spectrum and 104 glass in the tut. Now maybe they changed it after this whole thing came up and I suspect if Birdy would have contacted them about this situation something would have been worked out.
But Birdy comes in here swinging and all but calls the writers of these tutorials crooks.
I for one see that as mean rude and just plain not nice people should get upset about this and now come the folk with this is just a bash fest get over it.
Birdy was wrong to handle this in this way she should have contacted Becky and Diane first they worked really hard to put this tutorial together I saw a few weeks ago how excited they were to be spending time together and make this tutorial. It is out for a few days and they get totally trashed not nice.
I also agree with Pam there are some good things to learn and think about in this tread for people who make and sell tutorials as well as the buyers but this was totally the wrong way to handle this situation.
Have a good weekend,
John
blong2001
2009-03-07, 9:06am
This issue was touched on here: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105278
I feel when you are trying to learn something new that you have paid for that you should start with all of the correct tools. I was very disappointed when my DH purchased me a tutorial for our anniversary and I had to order something to use the tut.
Beth
Hey Beth,
I do think that the basic idea of posting tools and glass needed in a tutorial is a good idea.
But to start a tread like this without even one contact with Becky is not right.
John
VitreousTyro
2009-03-07, 9:47am
Like so many of these kinds of posts... I agree w/ what the OP is saying, but not how it's being said. BUT I can understand, as this kind of situation is very disappointing and has happened to me.
Regarding the suggestion that tut writers should provide a list of supplies which can be reviewed before purchasing the tut... I made that suggestion quite a few months ago when lots of tuts were coming out. Except for one comment from someone who was surmising that some of the writers didn't want to release that much info before the tut is out, my suggestion was ignored. HOWEVER one week later someone else made the exact same suggestion and was lauded. I really believe a supplies list needs to be included in the preview so purchasers can make a fully informed decision.
If I'm trying something new, I want to do the tutorial using the same glass as being suggested in the tut. As a relative newbie, I don't always know what I can substitute.
So to the OP, I don't think you're crazy... I think I get what you're saying.
Reenie
2009-03-07, 11:11am
I thought I was out of this thread but I guess I'm not. My tutorial does say that COE 104 can be used on the shells.
#2 and most importantly. These girls are lampworkers NOT professional authors.
They were soooo excited when they were working on this tutorial and so excited when it was finished. How cool it is to put something like this together for ALL of us.
Then there's a problem and the nastiness starts. You know what.....they didn't purposly set out to deceive anyone! Oops they made a mistake and didn't add a couple of words.
You that are free from mistakes "Please speak up"
We all learn by our mistake right? Whether it's making a bead to cooking dinner to our jobs we all forget something because we just DIDN"T think about that situation.
So cut these ladies some slack. Buy it, Don't buy it but geez people be nice about it!
glassactcc
2009-03-07, 11:31am
I actually agree with the tools and glass list to be shown in advance, so folks will know what they need to make the project. I am going to do that. I think with tools, it's a bit of a different story. Tools are expensive and sometimes cannot be substituted like glass can. I am an experienced bead maker and I would know how to substitute glass. If I was a newbie, I still would not have posted this issue in this fashion. I would have contacted the author and than maybe started a thread with no innuendoes about who's tut I was referring too, and just make a generalized statement or maybe a poll on this issue and hashed it out that way.
I do though, understand what Birdy is trying to get across.
Becky Mason
2009-03-07, 11:42am
Diane and I want to thank you all for your support. We have gone back and added a list of the glass types we used for the beads we made in each tutorial in our Etsy stores just to avoid future confusion. We hope that ALL of you will have fun going forward as you learn to make shells and animal prints using our tutorials. And PLEASE feel free to contact us with ANY questions you may have. We're happy to offer our help.
gemsinbloom
2009-03-07, 11:50am
Just to let you know. I have been only on a hothead for ten years and I have moved completely to bullseye and it works like a charm! I was told years ago by two bead makers that I could never use rubino on a hothead as well. When I am told I cannot do something, I am more determined to make it work. Please give bullseye a try. Easy peasy!
I believe that was added afterward...
I am happy with the tutorials, I think I can and will learn a lot from them
Just dissapointed in the fact that I have no Bullseye and don't plan on getting any in the near future, I am on a HH and have enough trouble with melting 104 lol!
I'm sure at some point I will try to match up some of the 104 colors with those of the bullseye line...or just take a stab at it....but it would have been nice to try to make one like pictured in the tutorial first....
granny
gemsinbloom
2009-03-07, 11:53am
Also, when I opened my lovely tutorials from these sisters, I was a little surprised to learn they used BB but I make a quick "phew" when I remembered I am fully stocked with both glasses now.
I do get Birdy's concern but I also agree it could of been handled much better!
Always conduct business concerns privately first.
I believe there are lessons to be learned in this thread by both customer and seller.
Irene brought up something I find important: It's new stuff, and things can be incomplete. In my experience lists of all sorts are notoriously incomplete.
Also, newbie that I am, I'd experiment with different glass, but I have a very small number of tools, and listing the tools required is more important to me than listing the glass (I personally wouldn't care much if my first attempt at e.g. shells is a mixture of blues and greens).
theglasszone
2009-03-07, 12:54pm
I can understand your wanting to alert tut publishers to the fact that some people might prefer it if the supplies were listed in the tutorial...How about: I just purchased a few tutorials and love the information I received, but would like to offer a suggestion to the authors. Can you please specify in the ad which COE is to be used and if there are any specialty glass or tools that I need to make this piece?...
I think Rebekah said it so well - back in the early replies to Birdy's post - and it is a fair point that was being made. I can give Birdy that much. Of course, recognizing that although Becky and Diane are long-time, skillful lampworkers and teachers, this WAS their first published tutorial, so I think they would have been completely open (and probably thankful as well) to receive and consider positively proffered suggestions of how to improve tutorials published in the future. Now, maybe, we'll be lucky if they dare venture into this genre again!
Using words like "weirdo glass", "higher ethical standard" and "fair and honest disclosure" seem to cross the line, though, IMHO. When you start to call into question these things, you imply intent; in other words, I simply can't believe that Becky and Diane went in with an intent to deceive, and I think these words were inflammatory and uncalled for!
Birdy~~~Don't get me wrong...I sympathize with your perspective, to some degree, and appreciate the part of what you're trying to convey is intended to help tutorial writers help their customers. On the flip side, though, I think when you start injecting positive suggestions with negative and inflammatory words, the gloves come off and the point gets clouded in hurt and defensiveness.
Becky and Diane~~~I'm sure you are both hurt by some of what has been said here in this thread - and maybe even privately in PM. I hope that you will both find the strength within yourselves as well as with the support that is being shown you here - to dust yourselves off, stand tall and proud and know that the general lampworking community sincerely applauds and appreciates you and the true kind-spirited intentions behind so much good you do for us all!
I have an interesting point to throw out there, too: I purchased a tutorial recently where specific "secrets" and "tricks" (involving easily self-fabricated tools and glass treatments/colors) were at the core of tutorial itself! If it were to have been "revealed" or otherwise discussed on the front side, with pre-purchase revelations such as "Tutorial purchaser requires *blank* products, available at Michael's or Hobby Lobby" or "Customer needs to prepare for this tutorial by fabricating *blank* tool, which can be accomplished using *blank* basic materials found in any lampworker's arsenal", that would have blown the entire reason for purchasing the tutorial in the first place.
With all this in mind, I think everyone should come away with some important lessons from this, and let go of the anger, hurt, defensiveness, etc. as best they can that has become fodder in this thread. Here's a few of my suggestions:
* Tutorial WRITERS should strongly consider doing the best they can to help prepare their buying customer to purchase, in advance, the bare necessities of what will be utilized in the tutorial to accomplish it step-by-step, all the while alerting them of the possibilities of "alternatives" that can be used. As we've seen, this is probably best accomplished by listing this information on their ad or promotion pages;
* Tutorial PURCHASERS should be sensible in their expectations - and if the above information isn't available at the time the Tutorial is announced and/or published, I think a potential purchaser should be obligated to make an inquiry of the WRITER to provide them with that information - BEFORE PURCHASING! As consumers, we should ask in advance of making a purchase so we can make an informed decision as to whether or not we want to proceed and purchase the particular Tutorial. In addition, we should keep in mind that not every little nuance, tip, technique and/or "secret" is going to be revealed to us PRIOR to purchase, as this would be defeatist of the Tutorial itself.
Just my humble opinions!
De
Cynthia, please release your TUT. PLEASE...I am so hoping for a Peepers Tut, but understand if it is not. I so love your Peepers.
I agree that the wording Birdy used could have been better BUT she did warn people by naming the thread RANT, so therefore one should expect some harsh words.
I aslo think that attacking back is bad customer service. Sorry but it is. By saying something like, I hope its your meds talking and when you wake up from that drug induced stuper.....aaa yea. Wish I could say that to my customers when they come into the store and get a bit snotty with me. I would not have any customers......
I do agree with Birdy that full disclosure is a must. Tools, Type of Glass, if any thing like enamels, pixie dust, silver foil, and the like are needed in order to get similar effects. You are selling effects when you are using silver glass...yes you are. I cannot get ANY of the silver glass to do anything for me and I have tried and tried. So by suggesting an alternative to Terra, by using TerraNova would mean nothing to me. I too would be pretty upset to find out after the fact that expensive silver glass was needed in order to get the same effects.
Also I don't think its good or fair to expect buyers to email every tut writer they are interested in buying from with questions before making the purchase.
Make it as clear as possible what is needed in order to get the desired effect/end result. How is that expecting too much from the the writers?
J
Oh and just because I have only 105 post as of now, means nothing and is not indicative of my knowledge of glass. I know of many many people on here who are new to LE not new to glass.
J
AlivELampworK
2009-03-07, 1:47pm
Cynthia, please release your TUT. PLEASE...I am so hoping for a Peepers Tut, but understand if it is not. I so love your Peepers.
I agree that the wording Birdy used could have been better BUT she did warn people by naming the thread RANT, so therefore one should expect some harsh words.
I aslo think that attacking back is bad customer service. Sorry but it is. By saying something like, I hope its your meds talking and when you wake up from that drug induced stuper.....aaa yea. Wish I could say that to my customers when they come into the store and get a bit snotty with me. I would not have any customers......
I do agree with Birdy that full disclosure is a must. Tools, Type of Glass, if any thing like enamels, pixie dust, silver foil, and the like are needed in order to get similar effects. You are selling effects when you are using silver glass...yes you are. I cannot get ANY of the silver glass to do anything for me and I have tried and tried. So by suggesting an alternative to Terra, by using TerraNova would mean nothing to me. I too would be pretty upset to find out after the fact that expensive silver glass was needed in order to get the same effects.
Also I don't think its good or fair to expect buyers to email every tut writer they are interested in buying from with questions before making the purchase.
Make it as clear as possible what is needed in order to get the desired effect/end result. How is that expecting too much from the the writers?
J
i'm really on the fence about this. a lot of times you're purchasing the tutorial for the secret..for whatever material it takes to make that particular bead. so if they promote their tutorial as silver and enamel effects... you need _____ glass and _____ enamel .. then you will know the secret before you purchase the tutorial. know what i mean? then they wont sell as many, because they're giving too much away.
i do not think authors need to disclose every material you need to make the bead.
suzanne
2009-03-07, 1:56pm
I agree with Ali here and besides that, what happened to trying something else on your own? Why not grab a rod of plain old red and see what happends, or try whatever glass you have. I get the most satisfaction when I get to play with glass, I get to pick the colors and I learn most because I did grab some ivory and topped it with rubino, I did encase coral, I did burn all color out of my reds, and reduced the crap out of my turqoise.
To me making beads is a continues learning experience, and tutorials are only a very pleasant addition to it but thats just my humble opinion.
If I'm buying a tutorial I am buying a technique wich I will try to make my own one way or another, and sometimes I just buy them because I really want to support the artist who took so much time and efford to create something beautiful.
suzanne
2009-03-07, 1:58pm
forgot to add: I think there's a destinct difference between a tutorial on how to make *insert type of bead here* and a recipe on what's exactly in the bead, how long was it worked, what exact colors did you use and so on. I think this might be a major difference in approach. You learn how to use your pots and pans, now all you need to do is add your favorite ingredients and flavours to the dish.
AlivELampworK
2009-03-07, 2:10pm
forgot to add: I think there's a destinct difference between a tutorial on how to make *insert type of bead here* and a recipe on what's exactly in the bead, how long was it worked, what exact colors did you use and so on. I think this might be a major difference in approach. You learn how to use your pots and pans, now all you need to do is add your favorite ingredients and flavours to the dish.
suzanne, you literally put what i have been trying to say in simple words. thank you. that was great. :)
AKDesigns
2009-03-07, 2:24pm
You all just need to remember that not everyone buys tutorials just to learn the technique and incorporate it into their own designs. Many buy them to make the exact bead in the tutorial. They may be missing out but that's their prerogative.
suzanne
2009-03-07, 2:31pm
You all just need to remember that not everyone buys tutorials just to learn the technique and incorporate it into their own designs. Many buy them to make the exact bead in the tutorial. They may be missing out but that's their prerogative.
True, I just hope some will change their view reading this and learn so much more:)
You all just need to remember that not everyone buys tutorials just to learn the technique and incorporate it into their own designs. Many buy them to make the exact bead in the tutorial. They may be missing out but that's their prerogative.
You are so right, Amy. And I think that is where the problem comes in. Some people consider they are buying a pattern and some people consider they are buying instructions on a technique. The author needs to make that determination and list it on the tutorial.
"This is a pattern tutorial and you will need the following list of materials and tools in order to copy this bead."
"This is a technique tutorial. By using this tutorial I hope you will learn to use the techniques I used to create a bead similar to the one pictured. You may use whatever glass you wish, but within the tutorial I do list what glasses I used to achieve a bead similar to the photos."
suzanne
2009-03-07, 2:55pm
Pam great idea!
AlivELampworK
2009-03-07, 2:59pm
pam you always have amazing advice, you rock! :)
andreajane
2009-03-07, 3:13pm
If you write a tutorial, it's a good idea to list the materials and tools you use before purchase.
If the materials are a secret and the whole point of the tutorial, then say that instead.
If you don't know enough about what you're buying to feel sure you won't need to make an additional investment you don't want to make, ask.
I don't think it's really all that hard :D
Andrea
xiola blue
2009-03-07, 4:03pm
I remember, back in the day and not so long ago at that, when there were NO tutorials. We either had Corina's book, or Cindy Jenkins' book, or no books, and learned by looking and doing. A year and a half ago I was wondering if Cynthia would ever consider doing a tutorial on her beautiful pleated style beads, and I think I even sent her a message asking her, because the likelihood of getting to LA to study with her was nil. And she said she didn't travel. (Oh please, Cynthia, do publish your tutorial!!!!)
Shortly after that tutorials starting being written. They are a godsend because we cannot always fly to Seattle, or Maine, or Texas or wherever to take someone's class, and I personally have gotten something out of every tutorial I have purchased. Along the way, though, I started to get the sense that some people expected that by purchasing a tutorial all the answers would be given...all you had to do was "plug it in" and you too would be making great beads.
I see the tutorial as a gift from the artist, who still makes some money, doesn't have to travel either, and we all win. And the challenge is there to improve, learn, perfect, grow, and maybe buy a few rods of a new glass, or a new tool (or learn to do without so many tools and really study the properties of glass), and maybe even go off on a new and exciting tangent.
I am not going to comment on the rant or the answers...you have all covered that so well, but I would like to suggest that anyone working in glass relax and enjoy the journey, even if you were not counting on turning off on that particular road...there is ALWAYS something to learn. And by the way, look at some real shells and figure out, with what you have, how to make glass ones that look like them....therin lies is the great challenge and the fun. xiola
i remember, back in the day and not so long ago at that, when there were no tutorials. We either had corina's book, or cindy jenkins' book, or no books, and learned by looking and doing. A year and a half ago i was wondering if cynthia would ever consider doing a tutorial on her beautiful pleated style beads, and i think i even sent her a message asking her, because the likelihood of getting to la to study with her was nil. And she said she didn't travel. (oh please, cynthia, do publish your tutorial!!!!)
shortly after that tutorials starting being written. They are a godsend because we cannot always fly to seattle, or maine, or texas or wherever to take someone's class, and i personally have gotten something out of every tutorial i have purchased. Along the way, though, i started to get the sense that some people expected that by purchasing a tutorial all the answers would be given...all you had to do was "plug it in" and you too would be making great beads.
I see the tutorial as a gift from the artist, who still makes some money, doesn't have to travel either, and we all win. And the challenge is there to improve, learn, perfect, grow, and maybe buy a few rods of a new glass, or a new tool (or learn to do without so many tools and really study the properties of glass), and maybe even go off on a new and exciting tangent.
I am not going to comment on the rant or the answers...you have all covered that so well, but i would like to suggest that anyone working in glass relax and enjoy the journey, even if you were not counting on turning off on that particular road...there is always something to learn. And by the way, look at some real shells and figure out, with what you have, how to make glass ones that look like them....therin lies is the great challenge and the fun. Xiola
great post!!!
glassactcc
2009-03-07, 4:27pm
Oh, thank you Irene and JBeads. I am going to publish my tut very soon. It's getting a test run right now. I think Irene brought up a point that was partially my motivation for wanting to write a tutorial. I don't like to travel at this time in my life because of home and family, and I thought this was a great alternative. I didn't think a long time back that I was going to ever write one, but It's a great way to teach without leaving my home. And also, these are pieces that I don't teach in my classes.
I know how hard it is to learn lampworking alone and with no instruction. I wish these were available when I started out. Who knows though. I think I might not have learned what I did if I did it any other way. I have purchased three tutorials myself and I really enjoyed making the pieces. It's nice to do something different and totally new. It breeds all kinds of ideas and that's what I hope to accomplish for the folks who buy mine.
jeepinwelch
2009-03-07, 4:51pm
I am going to publish my tut very soon. It's getting a test run right now.
If you need an extra tester I'm available!:waving:
Birdy,
I Have made lots and lots of shells out of 104 glass. Try white with pink frit, anything brown with iris gold frit, CiM Cirrus, CiM Desert Pink, any pink...The list goes on and on. Recently I used cobalt blue with raku frit for a funky blue shell..Sorry no photos. They get gobbled up as soon as I make them!
Paula
Jill Hoblick
2009-03-07, 5:30pm
Hi Becky & Diane! Great tutorials - you girls rock!!!! Jill
Oh, thank you Irene and JBeads. I am going to publish my tut very soon. It's getting a test run right now. I think Irene brought up a point that was partially my motivation for wanting to write a tutorial. I don't like to travel at this time in my life because of home and family, and I thought this was a great alternative. I didn't think a long time back that I was going to ever write one, but It's a great way to teach without leaving my home. And also, these are pieces that I don't teach in my classes.
I know how hard it is to learn lampworking alone and with no instruction. I wish these were available when I started out. Who knows though. I think I might not have learned what I did if I did it any other way. I have purchased three tutorials myself and I really enjoyed making the pieces. It's nice to do something different and totally new. It breeds all kinds of ideas and that's what I hope to accomplish for the folks who buy mine.
I second being a tester. If I can do it...anyone can ;-)
Thanks for not stopping your tutorial.
My problem isn't by "Choice" I'm jus stuck at home but I'd take a class if I could...any and all! I love learning :-)
Ashtonjewels
2009-03-07, 6:50pm
I remember, back in the day and not so long ago at that, when there were NO tutorials. We either had Corina's book, or Cindy Jenkins' book, or no books, and learned by looking and doing. A year and a half ago I was wondering if Cynthia would ever consider doing a tutorial on her beautiful pleated style beads, and I think I even sent her a message asking her, because the likelihood of getting to LA to study with her was nil. And she said she didn't travel. (Oh please, Cynthia, do publish your tutorial!!!!)
Shortly after that tutorials starting being written. They are a godsend because we cannot always fly to Seattle, or Maine, or Texas or wherever to take someone's class, and I personally have gotten something out of every tutorial I have purchased. Along the way, though, I started to get the sense that some people expected that by purchasing a tutorial all the answers would be given...all you had to do was "plug it in" and you too would be making great beads.
I see the tutorial as a gift from the artist, who still makes some money, doesn't have to travel either, and we all win. And the challenge is there to improve, learn, perfect, grow, and maybe buy a few rods of a new glass, or a new tool (or learn to do without so many tools and really study the properties of glass), and maybe even go off on a new and exciting tangent.
I am not going to comment on the rant or the answers...you have all covered that so well, but I would like to suggest that anyone working in glass relax and enjoy the journey, even if you were not counting on turning off on that particular road...there is ALWAYS something to learn. And by the way, look at some real shells and figure out, with what you have, how to make glass ones that look like them....therin lies is the great challenge and the fun. xiola
Bless your heart, Penny! :love:
I guess this is a great thread to tell anyone looking for Bullseye Pinks that I have a pile of them! I did stealth away some for myself after reading the tutorials! I really loved the right hand left hand thing that you offered too!
Paula
I used raku glass in my goddess bead tutorial. I also said you can use any glass, but might want to stay away from dark ivory to start out with.
I just used the raku to show how to strike glass. That's all.
Any glass, any COE, any color.
My goodness it isn't brain surgery here! I bought their animal tutorial, and I don't have all the glass colors they used, but I'm going to buy the ones I don't have....no biggie!
~~~
This thread reminds me of when H.Kitty drove me into the ground for copying her work... ouch, I know it hurts and its bad to go public. I never responded in the thread but I read all the "crap" that people said about me, no one knows the threat that she wrote me before she posted the thread....take the listing off or else kind of thing. I figured if I wrote ANYTHING in that thread I would regret it, so I didn't. It's not good to put down fellow lampworker's in public threads!! (sorry if I spelled anything wrong in this post, as someone said I don't know how to spell in the H.Kitty thread)
Unless it's a specific glass that must be used for the technique or you can't make the bead - can't you just buy some of the glass?
I mean, if you bought a cookbook and they told you needed anchovies to make some dish, isn't up to you to go buy some anchovies?
So, the tutorial says you need Bullseye glass. Wait until you get some to make the bead. Unless you don't want to buy Bullseye glass.
I can see putting the coe on the description, but that's all. I don't see why the tools need to be listed. You are buying a recipe. If you don't have a spring form pan, you can't bake the cheesecake.
killerbeedz1
2009-03-09, 6:19pm
I personally think this is a ridiculous rant and can't believe you publicly humiliated the writers of what appears to be a great tutorial. I love that seasoned lampworkers are taking the time to share their techniques with us and you should to. A lot of lampworkers will be hesitant to write tutorials by posting this here and that really ticks me off. This should have been a private matter. I comtemplated writing a few tuts, but some of the feedback I've seen, such as yours, has really held me back. Anyway it's not really a big deal that they are using bullseye. Just use the glass you have.
likes to make glass stuff
2009-03-10, 9:27am
Tut writers: If you don't disclose the materials needed for your tutorials, from time to time folks are going to be unhappy. Newer bead makers especially. Newer folks don't realize how you can substitute one striking glass for another, or one COE for another. They just don't know that. They see it as a recipe for how to make the subject of the tutorial....which it is. Some folks will go outside the edges of the tutorial, some won't. That's a risk you take making and selling the "how to make X Bead" lesson. Some people WANT to make X Beads, exactly like in the lesson, and if they have to pay for it to find out that a material is harder to get, then they will be unhappy.
If I bought a cake mix, got it home, opened up the package and found out I had to go back and buy flour, I'd be pissed. That's why they put most of the stuff in the box and then list the rest on the outside of it.
All that's being asked for is the stuff that ought to be on the outside of the box. Yeah, it was a little harsh. Can't the writers put themselves in the poster's place for a moment, though, and see how frustrating it could be, especially when there was a No Refunds policy?
I'd have been ranting so loud my neighbors could hear if I bought a cake mix and then had to order a special flour, but couldn't return it. Wouldn't you?
Tutorial authors-figure out what your anticipated target lampworker's skill level is. Then have someone with less skills than that proof your tutorial. Offer a kit, perhaps, of the glass used for your tutorial subject. Accept that some folks want to get down how to do it exactly like in the tutorial, THEN try it their own way, or apply techniques to other things....or never do it their own way at all.
Henrywashere
2009-03-12, 7:43pm
I havent read the whole of this topic, but I am on the other side. I dont use 104 at all and most tutorials are written for 104. I buy them knowing it is a different glass than what I use - but I am buying it for the technique not so that I can make a complete copy of someone else's bead right down to the colour. If authors had to write disclaimers on their tutorials to suit everyone surely a disclaimer page would become bigger than the tutorial. I would have to say that I have been much more disappointed with buying books than I ever had with buying a tutorial. Because supplies are limited where I live I buy mostly over the internet so all you can see is the cover of a book - the book might get to you and you dont like 1 thing in it. I feel at least with buying a tutorial you really do know what you are getting up front. Surely getting tutorials will build your skills up - I mean do we want to be making a direct copy or do we want to make something that is not immediately recognizable as someone else's work. Tutorial writers are being very generous in sharing the information they have gathered and if it reduces the PPP time for us as we dont have to discover the lightbulb minute of how to do something that we have never thought of before. Its hard to please all the people all of the time - and in fact it is not something you can do.
How about this idea - write the author of the tutorial and ask them what coe is required before you buy it!!
Diane Gates
2009-03-16, 8:14am
I have the tutorials and used 104 and the beads turned out great. These were really well written and Becky and Diane had great intentions and I am happy that they created them for us.
dclutter64
2009-03-16, 8:41am
Ok I read through this whole thread and I was kind of stunned that it is still going on. So for whatever it is worth here is my 2 cents. I think henrywashere mirrored my feelings pretty well in the above post. Having taught many people myself in my line of work I have had the opportunity to meet many personalities! I understand that everyone learns differently, but to submit a post that degrades someone that is trying their hardest to give something of their selves to the lampwork community without talking to them directly is just wrong. This really should have been a private matter.
I doubt Becky and Diane are professional writers and it is very hard to think of everything when you are trying to write down how you go about doing something. I have had to write my own teaching materials and it never fails that there is always someone that is more caught up in the mistakes that I made than what it is I am trying to teach! It is very frustrating! Don’t throw stones unless you are without error! If you are trying to point out an error to help the person that is different.
mjvanhorn
2009-03-18, 9:53am
My 2 cents....I thank each and everyone of the writers of tutorials every day! For those of us who cant travel or afford classes, these are a god-send! I've bought tutorials before just so I can see how in the heck they did that! I've also found that I dont always have the supplies called for, but I adapt and use what I have and get some really cool suprises.
Thanks again to all who take the time to write these toots, I think they are the best and I appreciate them very, very much!
kandice
2009-03-20, 4:43am
I snipped a bit for length, but I just have to say that these points are perfect. I agree completely - and I thank you for the time you took to write them. I know, as a tutorial writer, I will be following this advice!
And also....this thread scared me a bit. :) But I also know that I'll do all I can to make my customers happy, including refunds if need be.
* Tutorial WRITERS should strongly consider doing the best they can to help prepare their buying customer to purchase, in advance, the bare necessities of what will be utilized in the tutorial to accomplish it step-by-step, all the while alerting them of the possibilities of "alternatives" that can be used. As we've seen, this is probably best accomplished by listing this information on their ad or promotion pages;
* Tutorial PURCHASERS should be sensible in their expectations - and if the above information isn't available at the time the Tutorial is announced and/or published, I think a potential purchaser should be obligated to make an inquiry of the WRITER to provide them with that information - BEFORE PURCHASING! As consumers, we should ask in advance of making a purchase so we can make an informed decision as to whether or not we want to proceed and purchase the particular Tutorial. In addition, we should keep in mind that not every little nuance, tip, technique and/or "secret" is going to be revealed to us PRIOR to purchase, as this would be defeatist of the Tutorial itself.
Just my humble opinions!
De
upinflames
2009-03-21, 11:55am
I've purchased MANY tutorials from lampworkers here and have to say that I've not been disapointed a single time. I didn't always have the exact glass (color or coe) that they used, but I made due with what I had OR I ordered what I wanted to make it how they described.
I purchase tutorials for the techniques and experience of the author, not to make the exact bead that they are teaching, so to me it's not a big deal if I don't have every single thing on their list.
I'd like to thank every tutorial author out there for sharing your secrets with all of us. I recognize that these tutorials represent many, many hours of your lives and I appreciate your willingness to share. THANK YOU!
Carmen Isaacs
2009-03-21, 3:23pm
I've purchased MANY tutorials from lampworkers here and have to say that I've not been disapointed a single time. I didn't always have the exact glass (color or coe) that they used, but I made due with what I had OR I ordered what I wanted to make it how they described.
I purchase tutorials for the techniques and experience of the author, not to make the exact bead that they are teaching, so to me it's not a big deal if I don't have every single thing on their list.
I'd like to thank every tutorial author out there for sharing your secrets with all of us. I recognize that these tutorials represent many, many hours of your lives and I appreciate your willingness to share. THANK YOU!
I have to agree with everything you say.
I love tutorials and would just like to say THANKS to all the writers......I can't live without you guys!!
If I don't have the glass.....well I just have to order it!! Oh and I do have to wait. I know this is not always possible for a lot of people out there (trust me I know I live in Africa) but then before you buy the tutorial email the writer and ask what glass is used before you bad mouth anybody.
I have also purchased quite a few tutorials and plan on buying many more. One tutorial I had bought I did not have the recommended frit. I played and experimented with some frits that I did have and I came up with something really cute, totally different from the tutorial..but more me..I want to come up with my own style and it doesnt seem fun if you are just torching someone elses beads over and over again. These tuts have helped me with techniques, heat control and a better understanding of glass. I think the authors really conducted themselves with class ans professionalism when they replied to this thread.
Artists producing tutorials has been one of the best things to happen in this industry. If you want a really detailed instruction, buy a tutorial. I have produced 32 books published by West of the Moon Publications and several more by other companies. To put out a book with as much information as a tutorial has in it and enough projects, makes a book cost prohibitive. (unless you are going to sell it for 50 or 60 $ )So most books have many projects with just bare bones instructions. These artists go into detail and give a hell of a lot of customer service and support. Plus it's another way to support and spread the $ through the lampwork society.
There are still a few of us here on the forum that Lampworked before there even was a Hot Head on the market and we were using and trying any type of torch that became available. To most of us back then you couldn't just jump on the internet and find Morretti ( I believe back then it cost $10.00 hr. for internet and there were very few sources ). We used Bullseye because it had a tested COE and was readily available in any stained glass shop and distributor. It is a great glass and easily used on a Hot Head. I still teach my students to use it along with Moretti in my beginner classes.
Back then Pam was one of the first lampworkers I met. She was teaching at Las Vegas and I had to have one of her fish. Still have it after 18 years. If you want info on BE ask Pam, she makes the stuff talk.
No two people are alike in any way. Where some of us can fill in the blanks, others have to have the details and be led by the hand, and there is nothing wrong with that. With computers I am brain dead, but with glass I can see in my head what I want, or see a piece and think why didn't I do that. For me glass is easy for others computers are easy.
For others writing is easy, for me, I have to have an editor and be proofed. (ever try to tell someone proofing that yes that is a word and if you change it it changes the meaning of what you are supposed to do.) This doesn't keep me from producing the books. But it does make it harder.
I guess what I'm trying to say is---- these artists are doing us a big favor by sharing what they have the ability to do. Each tut will be different because each of us are. Each of us are going to like one and not another. It's human nature. I have been on the forum almost every day for years. I do not post often. Each of you have your own personality and I feel I know most of you. You are all doing a great job, and if you agree or disagree you have the right to do it.
Geneva
Donna T.
2009-04-10, 3:58pm
I buy a cake mix it tells me on the outside that I need eggs, oil and water to complete the mix. If I don't have eggs I can substiute egg beaters. If I don't have oil I can substitute with apple sauce, butter or mayo. Might even try lard. I can substitute varous juices for the water.
I may not have the exact cake as shown on the box but I will have a cake that will be edible and maybe even better than the orginal cake. Very very few recipes do I have 100% of ingrediants. I'm always making substitutions.
Tutorials are the same. Take the basic instructions and use what you have. You never know what you may come up with. No tutorial is wasted learning.
Well, I think I speak for the minority, but I would like to know ahead of time what kind of glass the author of a tutorial is using. Be it boro, BE , 104 or something else. I don't think that information is part of any secret recipe and I feel that information should be clearly stated without the buyer having to contact the author. In this case the authors have corrected the description of their tutorial to include that information and that should put this matter to rest for everyone concerned - those who feel comfortable substituting and those who do not.
Does anybody at all understand the point that I'm trying to make? I'm beginning to feel like a total lunatic!
Birdy
Yes, I get it 100%..........I think the rub is the public post. The attack on you where LE members are questioning your motives is because you are new, therefore you are also prey. I'm sorry you are being attacked for trying to make a suggestion to save future new lampworkers your same frustration. It is a very nice suggestion.
I also purchased a tutorial that suggested a certain glass. When I went looking for it, it was a glass that was out of production. Took me awhile to get over my frustration on that, so I understand what you are trying to say.... CC2
kbinkster
2009-04-11, 12:43am
I think that it would be nice to have a list of needed and suggested ingredients disclosed before purchase for these tutorials, but really... precisely because they are not always listed beforehand, I assume that I will have to buy some colors that I don't already have. What difference would it make if those new colors I have to buy are COE 104 or COE 96? I could see a big difference if it required COE 33, because that takes a lot more heat and not everyone has the set-up for it. But, typically, those tutorials are labeled as such.
If I want to make a specific bead just like the author, then I expect to have to buy some special glass. If I want to learn a technique and adapt it to my own use, then I expect that I might either buy some new glass or substitute for what I already have. If I knew that I absolutely could not buy another stick of glass and I wanted to know that I could use the tutorial with what I had, I think I would email the author(s) before purchasing.
But again, it would be nice for the needed/suggested colors and any alternatives to be listed when possible - except when listing something might give away a trade secret that should only be revealed upon purchase of the tutorial.
With that said, I don't think these two authors did anything "unethical." I don't think they were out to trick anyone. What could they possibly gain from that? Also, it is pretty common knowledge that the lower the COE, the stiffer the glass, and the easier it is to sculpt. A lot of artists use lower than COE 104 glass for their sculptural beads - not everyone, but enough that it should not be a surprise.
I'm really sorry, Birdy, that you were so frustrated and disappointed. I didn't list my thoughts on this to say that you should have done this or should have though about that, but instead to maybe give food for thought for anyone else contemplating buying a tutorial. Maybe they can think things through and avoid a frustating experience like you have had. And hopefully, your post will encourage more tutorial authors to list the ingredients before purchase. I think that would be nice.
I buy a cake mix it tells me on the outside that I need eggs, oil and water to complete the mix. If I don't have eggs I can substiute egg beaters. If I don't have oil I can substitute with apple sauce, butter or mayo. Might even try lard. I can substitute varous juices for the water.
I may not have the exact cake as shown on the box but I will have a cake that will be edible and maybe even better than the orginal cake. Very very few recipes do I have 100% of ingrediants. I'm always making substitutions.
Tutorials are the same. Take the basic instructions and use what you have. You never know what you may come up with. No tutorial is wasted learning.
Maybe all of these substitutions are OK, but what if you are a brand new cook without the knowledge to make those substitutions?
Baking is a lot more particular than glass. I measure when I bake. I measure when I can (as in "canning"). I don't measure when I cook and I don't measure when I torch (within reason).
If you're a brand new cook, buy yourself a cookbook first, or several. There are good ones out there and I'm currently waiting for my 3rd one (glass, I own more cookbooks than you want to know).
We're talking about hand made stuff here, made by individual people. Tutorials are meant to teach techniques, not for you (whoever) to make the exact same bead.
I'm a newbie myself, and I have a lot of experimenting to do yet, but I would not ever accuse the writer of any tutorial for not letting me know e.g. colors. I would want to know whether something requires boro as I can't do that (HotHead), but it really shouldn't matter whether something is made with any soft glass if it is that.
yellowbird
2009-04-11, 5:57am
I have a cook book I never use for this very reason.
Every time I tried I didn't have the ingredients needed. It sits on a shelve somewhere collecting dust.
There is a lot of competition and if you want to sell be accommodating.
I'm only buying from someone willing to offer a list of supplies and tools needed.
And if you read the original post she didn't even know what the glass was how in the world do you substitute for something if you don't even know what it is?
Donna T.
2009-04-11, 3:13pm
I have 14 tutorials (I think that puts me in the tut ho range for sure). I was just looking thru them again and 3 of them call for a color called Blue Iris. I don't have this color and I keep forgetting to order it. (Just sent off an order, whould have been a great time to do it) Two of the tuts I paid for and one was gifted from the author. I'm pretty sure neither told me ahead of time I needed this "odd" (at least to me) color. However, it has not stopped me from learning from the tutorial and trying a different color. So sometimes it didn't turn out as good as the author's and sometimes it was better or I learned even something else by making do. I can still get loads out of the tut before I get that one color I need.
I can see where it would be beneficial to list some of the things needed before buying the tut, but an author can't list some things without giving the whole concept away.
I agree with the earlier post that this could have been handled in a more gentle way. I'm afraid with all the negative posts towards tutorials that we'll have less writers willing to put themselves in the fray.
Lorraine Chandler
2009-04-11, 4:16pm
LE as of late has been turning into the Complaint Box of the lampworking world.
You buy a dress from a very nice well to do boutique, very well known and liked owners with excellent reputations....
You get home and see that the dress has a broken zipper.
You go to the store next door to the one you bought the dress at and complain bitterly about the zipper, the owners of the boutique that sold you the dress, how unethical they were and so on an so forth.
That is my view on the original post. Shouldn't have happened. Should have gone straight to the source. Should have taken care of business instead of NEVER even giving the sellers a chance.
Very bad form.....
The ONLY time LE should be used as a complaint box is: if after several attempts, phone calls, Pm's you get no response, no refunds, no answers etc. and even then I feel it is a very negative thing to do and is questionable, but because we have seen results from doing business this way and because it does help people to steer clear from bad sales etc. it has become acceptable.
Lorraine
Forgive me for jumping in, but this is a good example for defining what is purchased when you buy a tutorial. As I understand the tutorial conundrum,presented many a time by many a glass artist among you, the argument is that "refining" of a certain bead type, sculpture type,etc becomes the sole property of the "discovering" artist, subject to the same protection and status as Edisons lightbulb. That may or may not be, but that's not the dogfight I'm looking to roll around in today.(just the main premise for my opinion on the "problem" Birdy has with the tutorial she purchased)
The argument for tutorial sales is one of ownership of a concept that produces an artform that is recognizable to a particular artist . The tutorial's premise is to "share" the process with others. The PROCESS !!! If someone needs the exact color,shape,or
composition of someone elses work, then buy that artist's finished work. The tutorial, any tutorial , is only a means to an end, the road to travel on a journey. I can see listing any special tools one may employ on the journey, but glass type or exact color schemes, not nessecary.Even in the same glass, we all work in somewhat diff. temps. The glass can be stiff or soupy and can mimic different glass types. But what is needed is the initial approache to a particular form.Your own artistic juices should flow strong enough to motor on from there.
So is it a licence to copy, or a road map to a pretty vista. I think the road map. If it's percieved as a licence to copy,I would guess the question of royalties aren't far behind.
As I've confessed before, I'm not totally opposed to tutorial sales, I've purchased tut's myself (Note to Pyper:Your eyecane's are incredible,my Goddess!) and immediately stray from the text after reading.I don't want to be Pyper,I just need help with some forks in the road. And I'm not pulling Pyper pro or con into my argument, just that her tuts are a good example of process sharing rather than copying.
So Birdy, get a grip. Look inward.There's something there or you wouldn't be at a point comfortable enough to complain.Check out the map, gas up the car and begin a journey.
In you.
Kevin
I hate to repeat myself, but this bitch-fest really needs an end.Lets all take a deep breath, be thankful fot the experience shared by authored tut's and move on thru the creative world we all choose to live in.
Peace to all,and above all, play nice!
Puddy Tat Glass
2009-04-11, 7:33pm
I'm a "weirdo glass" user, or am I just a weirdo using glass...anywho...I just have to chime in since I use Bullseye. I'm on the other end of the stick, when I buy a tutorial, book or take a class it is a rare case where COE 90 is being used. Every time I buy eductional materials or take a class or workshop I have to figure that it's gonna be 104 COE (it's usually specified "soft" or "boro") and I'll have to glean from it what can be modified for my style and my COE. I don't expect to duplicate, especially when it comes to color or reactions, but I want to learn the "how" of it because maybe I can take the "how" and with a little modification make it work for my "weirdo glass". Tutorial writers please don't stop sharing the "how".
I think we need a "beating a dead horse" smilie. Seriously.
AlivELampworK
2009-04-11, 9:03pm
http://www.djchat.com/boards/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif
i can't believe this thread is still going!
Gayetha
2009-04-11, 9:39pm
The tutorials are great! I bought them, have read them and have had a go at some of the beads - great fun indeed.
I was a bit taken aback when I realised that the glass wasn't stuff I had, but I'll get around that. I suppose it would be good to state in the listing that glass other than 104 is used, but I read the bit that said you could use any glass, and they don't all need to be precisely the same anyway!
I see it as broadening my experience to try to source that glass in the future and see what it is like to use. The stained glass idea is a good one - opens up all sorts of possibilities.
Big thanks to the authors for sharing their techniques with newbies like me. Very much appreciated!
theglasszone
2009-04-11, 10:11pm
I can't believe this thread is still going!
I agree!
And since I think this thread should have been buried a while back, I'll add this Emoticon to Ali's. This one includes the "P.U." effect - hence the flies - proving the horse is truly ready for the grave! How 'bout we all let it go?
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x280/theglasszone/smileyz/BeatHorse2.gif
De
yellowbird
2009-04-12, 6:07am
Poor donkey consider the day and what he was responsible for.
Donna T you may have Iris blue in frit form, I believe Val Cox made it. You could pull stringer from that. :)
steph1214
2009-05-04, 3:58pm
http://www.djchat.com/boards/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif
i can't believe this thread is still going!
This is the best thing EVER!!!!
steph1214
2009-05-04, 3:59pm
I agree!
And since I think this thread should have been buried a while back, I'll add this Emoticon to Ali's. This one includes the "P.U." effect - hence the flies - proving the horse is truly ready for the grave! How 'bout we all let it go?
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x280/theglasszone/smileyz/BeatHorse2.gif
De
Ohhhh, wait a minute, THIS is the BEST thing ever!!!:lol:
theglasszone
2009-05-06, 10:01am
Steph....
Feel free to cut, paste and save it - it DOES come in handy once in a while! :lol: Fortunately, not very often!
Glad to see this thread is popping back up for giggles only.
De
steph1214
2009-05-06, 3:27pm
De,
Thanks and me too!!!!
steph
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