Running a torch on house hold gas

[lavendar420]

Hi, I'm buying a house & want to set up a torch station in the garage. The water heater & furnace are both gas & in the garage. I'd like to have a gas line from where those things are to where I'd like my torch to be, but its not far. (I'd have that done by a pro of course)

What I want to know is, can I expect my Knight Bullet to run on house hold gas pressure? What if I want a 2nd station for my Japanese torch, or some other torch? Also, does this sound like a reasonable thing in general?

Thanks!

[Tanner Studios]

The two things you need to understand are Pressure and Volume. As far as volume goes there will be enough to run muti torches if those torches can run on one and a half to two pounds of pressure. Volume is deterrmand by the size of the pipe and a 3/4 inch supply line would be best for more then one torch or a two stage.

I don't know a lot about the Knight Bullet but I'd suspect it would need more pressure then what the house hold pressure can deliver. You will need to get a gas boost to run a large two stage torch. Something like the G-tec 15 or 30.

But you could check with knight to find out the minimum pressure requirements for that torch.
Scott

[lavendar420]

Thanks Scott.

Here's something I found on another forum:

Bullet: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG) for the center and 100 CFH/50 CFH (NG) for just the outer = for a toal of 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)

I don't know how to translate that though

[NMLinda]

There might be some good info on the Art Glass Answers forum, too.

I would also read some of the posts and discussion threads on setting up in a basement, both here and on Art Glass Answers. The only reason why I suggest that is because you have both your furnace and water heater in the garage, so you may have similar make-up air considerations as someone working in a basement.

Linda

[Tanner Studios]

Well that is just half of the equation. CFH stands for Cubic Feet per Hour. That is the measurement for volume. Now you need to find out the pressure ( psi, Pound per Square Inch ) tolerances of your Bullet.

You should talk to Cosmo he is the resident expert on the Knight Bullet. I'm sure he would be happy to feel in the blanks.

I can't said what the CFH is of the half inch supply or a three quarter inch. I can say the three quarter will deliver that and more.

But what you really need to drive a large torch is pressure first. This means that although you maybe able to run a torch at low pressures it may not be a good thing.
The flame will not be as hot as it could be or carbon will build up faster then it should and even it could damage the torch.

Really the best advise is to set up your new space with 3/4 inch supply line and use a propane tank until your ready to invest in a G-tec gas booster. A one step at a time approach.

I use a G-tec 15 with a GTT Phantom and I can say this about Natural Gas.

Natural gas burns around 2850 BTU's and propane burns around 2900 BTU . However Natural gas is cleaner so you can push the torch a little and make up the difference ( just my opinion ) But it will cost more to operate then propane. But because of the clean burning nature of natural gas you'll get better colors and more control of your color and flame. Also you will have to learn the zen approach of flame management.
There are no yellow candles to tell you when your reducing. You'll have to figure that out by the feel, temp, and length on the candles. But heres a clue, use a rod of Moretti Turquoise to test the flame. Melt a small ball on the end of the rod. If the rod shows rust the flame is reducing.
Scott

[LyndaJ]

I got a booster when I upgraded my torch recently. I LOVE it. Running on NG is the best.

I don't think a Bullet is on the list of torches that run on household pressure.

Betta, Cricket, Mini cc, Minor, maybe bobcat. Those I've seen.

[sosoft]

The two things you need to understand are Pressure and Volume. As far as volume goes there will be enough to run muti torches if those torches can run on one and a half to two pounds of pressure. Volume is deterrmand by the size of the pipe and a 3/4 inch supply line would be best for more then one torch or a two stage.

I don't know a lot about the Knight Bullet but I'd suspect it would need more pressure then what the house hold pressure can deliver. You will need to get a gas boost to run a large two stage torch. Something like the G-tec 15 or 30.

But you could check with knight to find out the minimum pressure requirements for that torch.
Scott
Scott,
In the US, normal household gas pressure is measured in water inches or water feet. It has to do with the amount of water displaced in a column
Anyway, gas is delivered to homes at 10-12 water inches, roughly 1 psi. All normal household appliances use the pressure. Commercial gas delivery (as into a glass studio furnace) can be higher, but the pipe is larger and the cost is more per therm.
Unless you use a booster or a torch that will is designed for 1/4 pound of NG, you will have trouble running a oxy/ng flame.
In my experience check the min input pressure for any torch in question. The smaller Nortels are low gas pressure and so is the new GTT Cricket. I have never used a knight torch, but the information should be available on the knight web site.
Hope this helps,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps Nice trick to find a reduction flame, I also find a piece of GA amazon night boro works for setting flame chemistry.

[Dale M.]

Scott,
In the US, normal household gas pressure is measured in water inches or water feet. It has to do with the amount of water displaced in a column
Anyway, gas is delivered to homes at 10-12 water inches, roughly 1 psi. All normal household appliances use the pressure. Commercial gas delivery (as into a glass studio furnace) can be higher, but the pipe is larger and the cost is more per therm.
Unless you use a booster or a torch that will is designed for 1/4 pound of NG, you will have trouble running a oxy/ng flame.
In my experience check the min input pressure for any torch in question. The smaller Nortels are low gas pressure and so is the new GTT Cricket. I have never used a knight torch, but the information should be available on the knight web site.
Hope this helps,
HITK,
Kurt
Ps Nice trick to find a reduction flame, I also find a piece of GA amazon night boro works for setting flame chemistry.

Gas delivered at 10-12 IW is NOT roughly 1 PSI.... It is about 1/3 PSI.... To achieve 1 psi you need a Water Column pressure of approximately 27.67 IW....

Generally in "most" communities NG is delivered at a pressure of 1/4 to 1/3 PSI of roughly 7 to 12 IW..... This is regulated by regulator located on gas meter where NG enters your building....

It "may" be possible to have gas company put in a new service at 2 PSI but it would take a lot of extra plumbing and so forth.... At that point it may be less expensive to consider a NG booster.

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

Dale

[Beckah]

Your local utility company can answer at what PSI natural gas is delivered into your home. However, my utility company was very suspicious when I chatted with them a few years ago. I don't think they liked the idea of big NG pressures at a residence. My natural gas is 2 PSI to the meter and is then stepped down to 1/4 PSI. At a 1/4 PSI, I've run a MiniCC, a Betta and a Cricket. The Betta and Cricket are much happier with the low pressures than the MiniCC. I can't imagine effectively running a larger torch than the MiniCC without a NG booster.

[lavendar420]

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking I'll have to go with propane for the bullet.

[lavendar420]

So if I got a Cricket... what would I need to do to hook it up to a gas line? Just get the line run somewhere convenient & pop a regulator on?

[Dale M.]

Just have METAL line run from convenient appliance to bench/studio location and end gas line with approved gas shut off valve, then adapt hose to torch to shut off valve...

NO regulator required, the utility company already regulates pressure at meter where gas enters your building...

Below are a couple of images of "typical" NG connections..

120581
101125

Dale

[lavendar420]

Thanks Dale!

[tenor_ringer]

Hope it's not too late to chip in.

Our local gas company supplies residences at a standard 6-7" WC. Our initial plan was to use Nortel Mega Minors with natural gas, and the news that our gas pressure was that low was at first pretty disappointing. Craig at Arrow Springs told us, and Nortel concurred, that the burners would be OK with 1/4 psi, but that higher pressure would give better performance and leave the avenue open for bigger burners someday. Somewhere along the line, I also read or was told that the low gas pressure may not be enough to create a flow through some flash arrestors.

I investigated pressure boosters and found that a unit big enough to run the two Megas would be pretty expensive ($1500+ ?). On top of that, we would have to have a gas line run to the booster. Tax, title, and screaming, we were looking at probably $2000.

I spoke with the technical/installation department at our utility (I made sure I had a careful, rational, informed approach) and was told that it had not been done before, but they could deliver up to 5 psi. The hitch was that anything 2 psi or over would require welded iron pipe. It would also require the installation of 2 new regulators, one to cut off the 5 psi for the studio, and a second one to reduce that to low pressure for our appliances.

I found a contractor who could do the welded pipe and regulator installation. After seeing what we wanted, he suggested we check with our utility about the acceptability of using Gastite (a plastic-sheathed stainless steel flexible pipe). The type he suggested is intended for 5 psi working service, has a maximum rating of something like 100 psi and a burst pressure of 1500 psi. The gas company checked over the specs and OK'd it.

Honestly, I fully expected to get my feathers ruffled when I started asking the gas company about running a high pressure line into my house, but they were very reasonable about it. I think it helped that I went in prepared, able to speak their language, and had a solid, specific reason for my request. Having a good contractor was a definite advantage too. (I suspect dropping a few crumbs about my engineering background did not hurt my cause either). Above all, I made it very plain to them that I wanted to do the installation the right way. They appreciated that approach.

When all was said and done, the whole installation cost us less than the booster alone would have.

We first used natural gas while taking classes at Corning and decided we liked it. We like the safety aspects and the utter convenience of never having to fill a tank or worry about running out when the U-Haul store's propane station is closed.

Now, about a month after we first lit the burners, I can report that we absolutely love the installation and would do it all over again in a heartbeat. The Megas are fierce little torches on 5 psi NG. I would definitely recommend at least exploring the possibility of getting the higher pressure NG.

[ozarkcat]

Out of curiousity, has anyone done this with a (rural) propane bulk tank for a house? Just curious, as we've got a 250 gallon tank that would not be difficult to set up a branch line off of. I'm running a hothead, if that helps . . . . . . Figure DH will appreciate not having to ask, "And how much did we spend on MAPP gas this week?" ;)

[DesertDreamer]

The plumber who installed my torch NG line used the Gastite flexible pipe. It's great stuff and saved us considerably. They were here 2 hours, ran about 12 feet of line from our attic (where the air handler is plumbed), and it cost $750 total. They told me I wouldn't have to redo the line if I ever got the pressure raised, so that will probably be my next project.

From what I understood from the plumber, if you raise the house pressure you can have step-down regulators installed at the other appliances instead of running two lines. All we have is a stove and water heater, so that's a possibility.

P.S. The Nortel Midrange also runs on house pressure natural gas, though not at 100% output. Still, it's fine for anything but boro, and even boro is workable (slow but workable) if you have the MR Plus with a premix and a hush tip on top.

[laserglass]

IMHO, i would buy a torch that will run on normal household pressure and would not buy a booster. there are plenty of good torches that do not require higher pressure gas. a booster would cost a lot more than a new torch. the nortel red max, as well as all of the nortel torches will run on household pressure. oxygen will be your biggest flame limitation. a 5 l/m concentrator yields about 6000 BTU/hour flame, double that for 2 concentrators. with tankes, for massive big flames to work large boro, you may need a booster. here is a link for reference.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49835&highlight=power

[Dale M.]

Out of curiousity, has anyone done this with a (rural) propane bulk tank for a house? Just curious, as we've got a 250 gallon tank that would not be difficult to set up a branch line off of. I'm running a hothead, if that helps . . . . . . Figure DH will appreciate not having to ask, "And how much did we spend on MAPP gas this week?" ;)

I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND trying to run a hot head off residential BULK tank (250 gallon) ...... It would require running a line into studio from residential tank, and the line to HH would be at TANK PRESSURES ... That is about 125 psi on a 70° f. day....... Not only is it DANGEROUS to pipe in propane into a building at tank pressure, its illegal almost every where.......

When most people refer to piping in propane it is at a pressure from about 1/4 psi to 10 psi..... And it is for use with a fuel/oxygen torch, NOT a fuel/air torch as a Hot Head.....

When going bulk fuel with a HH one should not use anything bigger than a BBQ size (5 gallon or 20 pound) for this purpose, and use hose long enough to keep tank out side ...

Dale