View Full Interactive Version Of This Page : Official Thread: Tink Electroforming Kits Q & A
I've decided to create a central place where folks can ask questions about using the electroforming kits that John and I put together.
I encourage everyone to ask any and every question they have: You can be pretty darn sure someone else out there has the same question, but doesn't want to ask it!
To kick things off, Jenny found a typo in the booklet:
Page 5, Step #5 should read:
5. Use about 9” – 10” of the remaining 10 gauge copper wire to make your cathode holder (see images at end of booklet)
I read this thing literally a hundred times. And made a lot of other people read it, too. If this is the worst mistake, then I guess it's not too horribly bad. I guess. LOL! I tend to prefer perfection. Who would have thought it?
MaryBeth
2006-02-08, 6:39pm
I thought I would post this here as a handy reference for where to get the copper solution:
Rio's phone number is: 800-545-6566Order # 335-074
Midas Bright Electroforming Copper Solution
One Quart (which is exactly what you need for your 1000ml beaker)
$16.45
DalmarCopper Electroforming SolutionWe mix this product specially for electroforming. It can also be used for plating. It contains chemical brighteners for a bright finish. Acid base Use with a copper anode. Order No. C-1. $ 19.95 qt
Telephone: (239) 275-6540 Fax: (239) 275-1731
Shor International
www.shorinternational.com
Copper Mirror Plating Solution - Order # 45.208
1 qt $25.99
Thanks, Mary Beth!
How do you know if you have your current output adjusted correctly?
A good rule of thumb: If the copper deposit on your work is a dull, pink, putty color, your current is too low. It the deposit is really dark, powdery and grainy, your current is too high. What you’re shooting for is the look of a nice, new copper coin.
A kit recipient writes:
You mention in the booklet that once the bead is done and if you want to keep it the shiny copper look it should be "sealed". What type of sealer is needed ? If it's a special type of sealer, where can I purchase it ? Also you mention all sorts of patinas that can be used. Since this is soooo new to me, can you also explain this.
Patinas are the “finish” on the copper. Like the blue/green finish on the Amaya’s Song vessel on my Currently Available Work page in my sig. Patinas can be any color at all, and there are tons of products and make it yourself recipes out there for getting different patina/finish colors and effects.
You can use many things as a sealer if you wish to keep the copper from oxidizing. I’ve never used any, because I don’t like the look of bright copper. I either just let a piece age gracefully or I apply a patina. If you do want to seal the surface and keep it shiny bright, there are a number of options. You can use a clear lacquer sealer from any craft store. You can also apply finish waxes.
If you have a Michaels Crafts nearby, take a look at the Sophisticated Finishes product line they carry. They not only have instant (sort of) patinas in a bottle, they also have a primer/clear sealer that should do what you’re asking.
I admit to being completely clueless about how to get the various surface treatments of the copper. I love the look of texture that others have accomplished. Is that done by texturing the paint somehow? For example, how would one achieve the globular texture? I am assuming that if the paint is smooth, the electroformed piece will end up smooth...
My recent work has been very smooth, as I'm in "smooth mode" right now. LOL! This one was totally slick and shiny before I fumed it with ammonia to make it get the nice verdigris patina:
16070
16071
Any crustiness or texture you see on the above piece is in the patina.
Now, last March I was in "nubbly mode". And I think that's what you might be referring to when you say texture. The following two pieces have a heavier application of copper, AND it was applied at a slightly faster speed than the piece at the top of the post:
http://blackswampglassworks.com/efvessel1.jpg
http://blackswampglassworks.com/nephthysurn.jpg
These last two nubbly pieces were treated with Sophisticated Finishes (the stuff from Michaels) Patina Green Antiquing Solution.
There are a million and one things you can do to affect the finish of your work. Those of you who work with silver might have liver of sulphur around. You can use it on copper. I have used the Vigor brand Silver/Gold Oxidizer with great success to give a nice, aged look to the copper with zero texture or crustiness added.
Jenny, you are correct to a certain degree: If your conductive paint coating is smooth, you CAN get a nice smooth finish. But if you electroform it more quickly (higher current setting) and for a longer period of time, it WILL gain texture, as you can see from the last two pics posted above. Right after painting, both those works were completely smooth!
I've seen folks glue no-hole beads to their work, then put the conductive paint over it. You can use leaves, as one of our LE members does with SUCH flair and panache!!! You can even use wax on the surface of your piece and electroform over that!
Thanks! That is exactly what I wanted to know. My first test bead is ready to go and I will do it tomorrow. Approximately how long does this take? I realize it will vary depending on the look one is after...but smooth vs. nubbly will take how long?
Hmmm.... I've never had a piece take more than 24 hours in the soup. I take it out and check it every couple of hours, and when I think I like it, I stop. Sometimes I change my mind a few days later and put it back in. If you do this, just make sure you've cleaned your copper really good to get oil (from your hands) and dirt (from the air/environment) and oxidation off the surface so it will work well for you.
ltsexpressions
2006-02-10, 3:22pm
Tinkerdoodle,
My 1st (ok, 2nd, but ask Sue H-K what happened, I'm not tellin'...) piece is in the "soup" right now. It's a vessel that I made a week or two ago specifically for my Tink kit....
It's currently sitting at 1.59A and started at the 0.50A like the book said. It has moved up on it's own (is this right???)
I kind of like the ammonia coloring you did on that one vessel Tink. This particular vessel might look good that way, don't know yet....
Now to go look at the Tink store, b/c she's evil and put more fun stuff there I see..... *giggle*
Stacy, the current should not change at all. The voltage WILL change. This is referred to as the Constant Current function of this rectifier.
Turn the rectifier off. Remove the black lead from your cathode holder. Turn the top (amps/current) knob all the way down (counter clockwise). Turn the bottom (voltage) knob all the way up (clockwise).
Re-attach the black lead to your cathode holder. Turn the rectifier on. Both displays should read zero. Carefully turn the top (amps/current) knob clockwise. You will see numbers in both displays changing.
Adjust the top knob until the readout is about .15 amps. The rectifier will maintain this setting as until you change it yourself. It will automatically adjust the voltage (bottom readout) to maintain the .15 amps shown in the top window.
PS - I'm guessing that when you say "...started at the 0.50A like the book said.", you're referring to Kate's book? I have found that for the size work I do, that's way too high, but keep in mind that there is no cut and dried right or wrong in this process. Experiment... Play... Find out what you need to do to get the look YOU want on YOUR work.
MaryBeth
2006-02-10, 5:46pm
I just rated this thread a 5 - let's all do this:grin:
ltsexpressions
2006-02-10, 10:50pm
well, it went to zero once or twice and I moved the piece around again and it stayed at 0.50 then.... I'll try unplugging, etc. at next set up.
for now, I'm cleaned up for the night and am praying that the piece I'll show you here stays ok! I'm afraid to touch it too much or brush it w/brass brush (which I don't even have yet...) b/c I'm worried that the copper will come off (trauma left over from first piece!) I think the 1st piece hadn't had paint on correctly and this one was mostly ok.... (the swirl on the back side and the one side handle came off in the beaker... the handle b/c I had the lead wire wrapped around it and when I went to rearrange it, it came off b/c the lead wire was wrapped around it too tight, and the swirl I'm not sure why) I'm going to maybe re-dip it later and add back the swirl and the other handle. I'm waiting for my muse to give me her decision on this!!! LOL
Meanwhile, may I present to you, "Social Ceramic Engineeress" (long story, kind of had to be there... LOL) Firstpic is the front, 2nd the back...
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Made 2 honker vessels tonight at least one with decent handles, Tink!!! Thx for sending the vibes, you were SOOOOOOOOOO here in the studio for that moment!!!
Yay!!!!!! It's darling!!!
It does look a bit shiny though... As if it isn't etched or sandblasted.
Trust me: If you have properly prepped the piece, you can scrub it to your heart's content and nothing will pop off. In fact, instead of using one of those brass "toothbrushes", I use a wire brush on my Dremel.
sunnyone
2006-02-11, 10:53am
ok ...this may be a stupid question but....there are various plating solutions out there gold, solver etc....can we use the same kit and different anodes with the differnet solutions..ie silver anode silver solution..??
crystal
Rule #1: There are NO stupid questions! :-)
Yes, you can use the same equipment to do silver and gold.They are typically applied OVER your copper electroformed layer. You just need the right solution and anodes, as you mentioned.
sunnyone
2006-02-11, 12:38pm
coooollllll ! I am soooo there!
crystal
Excellent!
I've had some people ask if they can do the entire process with silver or gold, as opposed to using copper and plating over it with silver or gold. Yes, you can. But copper is the easiest to use, and the least expensive. Once you get your copper layer built, it's very easy to add some layers of the more expensive metal(s).
ltsexpressions
2006-02-11, 2:47pm
Tink,
Yes, it is shiny! and I know, I read the part about etching... but ya know, being the true "problem solver/manipulator/PITA" that I am, I had to try ONLY etching the part where I wanted the design.... so that's what I did.... painted on the design with etch cream, let it dry, washed it off, dried the piece, then painted the copper paint onto it.....
Now, tell me that you've tried that (which I'm guessing you might have) and that it doesn't work.....
.....ok, I actually HOPING that you haven't tried it before and that it might work........
(btw, thank's you-know-who for your sweet PM!!!!!)
Thanks, Tink and everyone else, for this great thread!
I am also in 'nubbly mode' (constantly!!) and have experimented with an additional way to get the nice little nubs. Kate Fowle Meleney uses the technique and it's as easy as pie. I encase those teeny tiny glass balls in the conductive paint prior to putting the piece in the bath. You have to make sure that the paint completely covers the balls.
There are examples in Kate's gallery, particularly the waist edges on Green Hydra (the top bead) and the longitudinal spines on Red Hydra (the 2nd from the top), both of them on this page: http://katefowle.com/gallery_new_biotech.htm
There is another example, but on a much much smaller bead, on this page: http://sgb-midatlantic.org/hall_of_fame.html. It's Karen King's Summer 2004 Winner.
The tiny beads come in a few different sizes. For instance: http://www.craft-ware.com/Glass_Beads.htm
Be sure to entirely cover and seal the beads inside the conductive paint.
JanMD
hummingbird3172
2006-02-11, 6:21pm
I have a few questions...so glad you made this thread Tink!
1) How thick should your electroforming coat be. (my first attempt was kind of thin and then peeled off)?
2) When applying "found" objects what kind of glue do you recommend?
3) What is the best way to apply the ammonia (and is it regular household ammonia)?
4) So you don't have to seal it unless you want that bright copper finish?
TIA!
prairieson
2006-02-11, 6:30pm
ok ...this may be a stupid question but....there are various plating solutions out there gold, solver etc....can we use the same kit and different anodes with the differnet solutions..ie silver anode silver solution..??
crystal
Do keep in mind that many of the metal solutions contain cyanide (even some of the copper solutions out there), and as a result, during the electroforming process cyanide gas is released.
A little background... Cyanide crystals are used to to complex and dissolve the cyanide oxides (the "metal") into solution. The cyanide in excess of what is required to dissolve the oxide resides in the solution in ion form, acts as an electrolyte and is referred to as "free cyanide". So what you have to choose from are three types of solutions:
"Free Cyanide": This is the most dangerous stuff. It has ionized cyanide floating around in it and shouldn't even be handled without a respirator, rubber gloves and apron and major ventilation.
No "free cyanide": Contains only the cyanide required to drive the oxides into solution. Safer? Technically yes, but I'd use the same precautions as above.
No cyanide: What you really want to look for. While not a safe as Nestle's Quick, a good deal safer than the other options. I did notice that Dalmar offers a non-cyanide silver plating solution, and I'm sure there are other vendors and metal solutions available.
So this dissertation in a nutshell: Cyanide... Bad.
Please... Please... PLEASE!!! Be careful.
Here is a link containing some info regarding the effects of cyanide:
Cyanide (http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/cyanide.shtml)
1) How thick should your electroforming coat be. (my first attempt was kind of thin and then peeled off)?
Did it separate from the paint, or did the coating and the paint both peel off the glass?
Electroforming is just a heavier application of copper than plating is. How thick should it be? Hmmm... Thick enough to get the effect you want ;-) It will take some experimentation to learn what works for you, AND to learn what that stage looks like on the finished object. If you look at my piece above, especially the side view, you can see that it's really quite a thin (comparatively) application.
2) When applying "found" objects what kind of glue do you recommend?
I have used everything from white craft glue to epoxy. It didn't seem to make any difference, provided you will be electroforming OVER the found object. The coat of conductive paint also helps hold it in place.
Ultimately, it's the copper that will hold it all together, and your glue just keeps everything where you want it until the copper is laid down.
3) What is the best way to apply the ammonia (and is it regular household ammonia)?
I use a gallon ziplock bag, but you can use Tupperware or whatever else you like. You're essentially crating a "fuming cabinet". I have some plastic
ornament stands from which I hang my work. I put that inside the bag. On the "floor" of the bag, I have a folded up paper towel, and I pour ammonia on the paper towel. Enough to make it nice and stinky :-)
Zip the bag shut, and you're good to go! I like my "fuming cabinet" to be clear so I can watch the progress of the patina.
4) So you don't have to seal it unless you want that bright copper finish?
Please... Please... PLEASE!!! Be careful.
Yep. What HE said. That's one of the reasons that I don't go that far in my booklet. It can be a very, very dangerous process. Proceed at your own risk.
hummingbird3172
2006-02-11, 8:38pm
1) How thick should your electroforming coat be. (my first attempt was kind of thin and then peeled off)?
Did it separate from the paint, or did the coating and the paint both peel off the glass?
Electroforming is just a heavier application of copper than plating is. How thick should it be? Hmmm... Thick enough to get the effect you want ;-) It will take some experimentation to learn what works for you, AND to learn what that stage looks like on the finished object. If you look at my piece above, especially the side view, you can see that it's really quite a thin (comparatively) application.
2) When applying "found" objects what kind of glue do you recommend?
I have used everything from white craft glue to epoxy. It didn't seem to make any difference, provided you will be electroforming OVER the found object. The coat of conductive paint also helps hold it in place.
Ultimately, it's the copper that will hold it all together, and your glue just keeps everything where you want it until the copper is laid down.
3) What is the best way to apply the ammonia (and is it regular household ammonia)?
I use a gallon ziplock bag, but you can use Tupperware or whatever else you like. You're essentially crating a "fuming cabinet". I have some plastic
ornament stands from which I hang my work. I put that inside the bag. On the "floor" of the bag, I have a folded up paper towel, and I pour ammonia on the paper towel. Enough to make it nice and stinky :-)
Zip the bag shut, and you're good to go! I like my "fuming cabinet" to be clear so I can watch the progress of the patina.
4) So you don't have to seal it unless you want that bright copper finish?
Oh thank you! These are great answers!
The coating and paint peeled off...maybe my surface wasn't etched enough? I peeled it all off and will try again. I have been experimenting a lot...to see what works...I love this kit, Tink. Thank you! :)
4) So you don't have to seal it unless you want that bright copper finish?
True. Personally, I'm not very fond of that "new penny" look. If you just leave it as is... not sealed... it will develop a lovely patina all on its own.
If you like that "old penny" look, but don't have the patience for it to develop, you can cheat. Like I do. LOL! Use some blackening agent like Vigor Silver/Gold Oxidizer on it. Swab it on with a cotton swab or brush it on with a paintbrush. It will get black right away. Let it sit like that for a little while... At least until it's dry.
Once dry, take a soft cloth and buff it. The raised portions will get a nice warm glow, and the recesses will remain darker. Very, very nice, IMO.
Anna, I decided the other day that I didn't need any stinkin' etchin' or sandblastin'. I painted on an intricate design, let it dry, then electroformed it. The whole thing popped off afterwards!
I *knew* that would happen. I guess sometimes I just have to experiment even if I think I know what the outcome will be. I believe that's how the truly great discoveries are made!
sunnyone
2006-02-11, 9:58pm
shor international offers cyanide free solutions as well. wow...thanks for all the tech speak though...now I really understand it!
crystal
hummingbird3172
2006-02-12, 8:36am
Anna, I decided the other day that I didn't need any stinkin' etchin' or sandblastin'. I painted on an intricate design, let it dry, then electroformed it. The whole thing popped off afterwards!
I *knew* that would happen. I guess sometimes I just have to experiment even if I think I know what the outcome will be. I believe that's how the truly great discoveries are made!
The last piece pieces I electroformed have the design sticking tight...I guess my piece just needed more etching. Wow this is really addictive! :)
I also tried the ammonia "fuming tent" ..very cool!
I think I may know another way to get the darkened patina....I have blackened silver by putting it in a bag with a peeled hard boiled egg...I am going to try that next for darkening the copper...more experiments..I LOVE it! :)
Firelilly
2006-02-12, 12:38pm
This feels like that Letterman bit...
http://www.coscosci.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm <---Is this anything?
Lil
That's one of my new favorite links, Lil! Thanks for posting it here!
Are you able to electroform more than one piece at a time as long as nothing is touching? Does it affect the performance of the system?
Tink - Its funny - I've been thinking of gearing up to do electroforming - just thinking about it and reading up - and here you are selling a kit for it! Great minds think alike ;) except you are a mile ahead of me.
How much bench space is required?
I also really love the cloisonne beads I've seen, and I was wondering, if you could substitute the metal inlay step with electroforming?
Thanks, Jim
Jim, I'm hoping others here will chime in to give their two cents worth, too. Part of what I love about the setup is that it's a very small footprint: The rectifier is 3.5" wide by 7.5" front to back by 6" high. The 1000 ml beaker is about 4" across. And that's it.
I don't know much about the cloisonne process, so I'll have to pass on answering that one. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
RE: Tink's 'Fuming Cabinet' -- if you use a heat-safe glass jar or a metal can, you can put it on the top of your kiln. The warmth of the kiln will affect the patina process (speed it up) and also affect the color. (Beware the ability of the patina solution to eat its way through some wussy metal can bottoms. Ouch!! Big mess! I now nest the can in a small Pyrex glass cake pan, and then put that on the top of the kiln.)
I prefer the deep and rich nubbly greens and turquoise patinas, exactly like the colors Tink got on that wonderful hanging matte-black vessel. I am also delighted and impressed with the thinness of that copper shell. Wonderfully delicate! Bravo, kiddo!
Kim, obviously I agree about Kate's electroforming work. The underlying beads are as (and sometimes even more so) amazing as the surface electro work. (And, hey, we miss you over here in Maryland. When ya comin' back?)
JanMD (akaJan Olsen)
<<<I also really love the cloisonne beads I've seen, and I was wondering, if you could substitute the metal inlay step with electroforming?>>>
Yes! Artists electroform the ridges onto the copper sheets, instead of etching or making an inlay sheet. Melissa Huff is an artist that uses electroforming to create the areas for the enamels: http://www.state.il.us/agency/iac/IAC%20Fellowship%20Web%20Pages/Crafts%20Recipients/Huff/Photos.htm
JanMD
Thanks Jan from Maryland! - Jim
prairieson
2006-02-15, 3:38pm
bump
hummingbird3172
2006-02-15, 4:40pm
I just found a way to get a very blue green patina...this is the brightest one I have managed to get...I found a recipe online and then I combined Jan's and Tink's fuming ideas. I mixed salt and red wine vinegar in a baby food jar and then I first put the piece inside...then I took it out and put it in a ziploc bag that had an ammonia soaked paper towel inside. THEN I put a little foil pan on top of my kiln and put the ziploc inside it. I let it sit in the "tent" until it started to change and then took it out. It just keeps getting greener and greener. It makes me think of that Stephen King bit from Creepshow...LOL.
MaryBeth
2006-02-16, 8:00pm
Bump - I get nervous when this gets too low on the page - and I'm still waiting for my plating solution!
Anna - - Please tell us more about that patina recipe that you found! You said salt and red wine vinegar, but not the proportions. Also, I think you say that you immersed the piece in that mixture for a while (before you put it in the ammonia bag), but you didn't tell us how long. More detail, my dear!!!
And Anna - - - if possible - - - please post a pic of how it turned out!
Thank you.
JanMD
hummingbird3172
2006-02-17, 9:05am
Anna - - Please tell us more about that patina recipe that you found! You said salt and red wine vinegar, but not the proportions. Also, I think you say that you immersed the piece in that mixture for a while (before you put it in the ammonia bag), but you didn't tell us how long. More detail, my dear!!!
And Anna - - - if possible - - - please post a pic of how it turned out!
Thank you.
JanMD
I can post a picture...lol....but I have to say the piece isn't particularly lovely...I forgot about it in the soup and the electroforming is pretty heavy for my tastes.
LOL, sorry! The patina recipe wasn't specific...it just mentioned salt and red wine vinegar so I started experimenting. I used about 1 tsp of salt (I used sea salt but I doubt that matters), to about 3 tablespoons or so of red wine vinegar. I then put my piece for about 2-5 minutes..not long at all. When I took it out, I just removed the moisture lightly with a paper towel. OK...let me get a picture, but please don't laugh...it is pretty heavily electroformed.
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17826
Firelilly
2006-02-17, 9:40am
Anna, that is so cool looking! I love it!
Lil
hummingbird3172
2006-02-17, 10:04am
Thanks Lil!
Kimberly, that does make sense! I think however, that I will just try to pay attention next time and not let the coating get too thick ;) . I need to get more anodes...the ones I had have totally fallen apart so I am getting some copper sheeting this weekend to make some more. This has been a good learning experience...lol...I am learning what NOT to do! ;)
hummingbird3172
2006-02-17, 10:35am
LOL!! I know EXACTLY what you mean! I have done it, too, and just decided to let it be a learning experience!! I use copper roof flashing. Comes in big rolls. You can buy it by the square foot and cut it with tin snips. Be sure to get the kind with no backing. Works great!
Thank you! I guess I will be going through it a lot..I'll need a big roll! LOL ;) Especially if I forget and leave my piece in the solution too long! LOL
Firelilly
2006-02-17, 10:51am
Well, I still think it's very cool looking! I mean, I know you don't want a bead to be overwhelmed...but the copper piece on it's own if very cool looking! That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :lol:
Lil
hummingbird3172
2006-02-17, 12:20pm
Thanks you guys...see I was going for a really delicate leaf...that was my "vision" for the piece and so when it came out anything but delicate I was kind of disappointed. I always get very frustrated when the actual finished piece doesn't match my "vision" and sometimes I have to come back to it later and view it on it's own merits...lol. Sometimes I am my own worst enemy! LOL
Anna - - - Thanks for posting! I like BOTH the electro and the patina! Well done on both, in my opinion. The patina is nice and subtle and realistic looking. Sometimes when I use the patina solution from Rio, I get a really bright phony-looking color. I like yours much better.
And the nubblier the better, in my opinion, on the electro work. I know that your leaf vision has almost vanished, but what the heck? It looks almost like an African mask or something very mysterious. I like it!
Question 1 for Tink: How many beads can you electroform before the solution is in need of rejuvenation?
Question 2 for Tink: How do you rejuvenate your solution?
JanMD
MaryBeth
2006-02-18, 12:37pm
I thought I would post these links about electroforming here - I have them bookmarked but this is handier:
Patina Formulas (already posted earlier in this thread):
http://www.coscosci.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm#l
Samson Technology - all kinds of supplies:
http://v-shoppes.com/mivastore/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=samson
Safer Solutions - electroconductive paint - loads of tips and links:
http://www.safer-solutions.com/page%205.html
Dalmar Plating - supplies and information
http://www.dalmarplating.com/
I think I have some others - if I add to this post - I'll edit out the original one and repost at the end of the thread. (I'm still waiting for my plating solution and I now have more ideas than I can create for the rest of my life:-D )
MaryBeth
2006-02-18, 12:40pm
Jan - you might want to take a look at the Safer Solutions web site. They have some pretty comprehensive answers to your questions.
prairieson
2006-02-18, 9:28pm
Question 1 for Tink: How many beads can you electroform before the solution is in need of rejuvenation?
Question 2 for Tink: How do you rejuvenate your solution?
JanMD
Jan, I can't speak for the number of vessels, it really depends on the area being electroformed and the thickness of the coating.
As for refreshing the solution, brightener can be used but we haven't tried any to recommend yet. I believe Tink just uses new solution when the time comes.
Actually, I just add distilled water to keep my solution at the 1000ml mark on the beaker. I have brightener, I've just never found the need to use it.
I'm still using the same quart of solution I started with a couple of years ago.
NOTE: Don't leave your anodes in your solution when you're not using it. The copper will continue to dissolve.
Thank you all for the answers and the links. (I like the Safer site the best.)
It seems that the suppliers are selling both plastic containers and the glass beakers as electroforming tanks. I don't suppose it matters which kind of tank you use, plastic or glass, just so you keep the solution clean.
I was also intrigued by the solution temperature tip on the Safer page, about how it ought to be chilled. I just did a piece yesterday, with brand new solution, that turned out all dull and salmonly, exactly as that Safer page (http://www.safer-solutions.com/page%204.html) says happens when the solution isn't sufficiently chilled. Hmmmmmm!
JanMD
That's interesting about the temperature thing. I had always heard that, if anything, the solution should be warmed! LOL! Is the chilling thing just related to the Safer Solutions products?
I get the salmon color when my amps are too low. By turning the amps up just a wee bit, I get the nice "new penny" look.
MaryBeth
2006-02-20, 7:54pm
I just received my copper solution today:grin:
In the information that came with it I noticed that Dalmar has a secondary site at:
http://www.dalmar.net
There is some great info there under the Conductive Coatings link on preparing your objects for electroforming.8)
hummingbird3172
2006-02-21, 4:18pm
Anna - - - Thanks for posting! I like BOTH the electro and the patina! Well done on both, in my opinion. The patina is nice and subtle and realistic looking. Sometimes when I use the patina solution from Rio, I get a really bright phony-looking color. I like yours much better.
And the nubblier the better, in my opinion, on the electro work. I know that your leaf vision has almost vanished, but what the heck? It looks almost like an African mask or something very mysterious. I like it!
Question 1 for Tink: How many beads can you electroform before the solution is in need of rejuvenation?
Question 2 for Tink: How do you rejuvenate your solution?
JanMD
Thanks Jan! It just seems to get greener everyday! LOL
I have another Patina recipe....I really love the look of this....I used a hard boiled egg...I put my bead on a dish with the egg (without touching) and then cover the whole thing with plastic wrap....if you leave it at room temp..or better yet use a warm egg the reaction happens faster...here is a picture:
18251
I sealed it with the Sophisticated Finishes sealer (from Michael's) .
Mary Beth, thank you sooooo much for all of the links! I know they will come in handy!
Tink, have you ever heard of anyone getting an allergic reation to the solution? I have a weird rash that is driving me nuts...not sure exactly where it came from....I am such a mess! ;)
Anna, I'm sure that an allergic reaction is possible with pretty much everything. I had an "encounter" with a patina solution tonight that was NOT a good thing.
Are you wearing your gloves? Where is the rash? Try washing the area very thoroughly, then rinsing with some baking soda infused water.
So how is everyone doing??? I wanted to check in with y'all one more time before John and I head off to Glass Axis for our Big To-Do this weekend.
Just a little something else I wanted to mention. An LE member is selling some Titanium pens that she made. You can find the thread here (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14577).
What you may not know is that you can supposedly use Titanium pens to lay down a conductive line... Hmmmm... Give you any ideas? Yep. You can draw on your work with it and then electroform it, using the Titanium deposit to collect the copper instead of paint.
I haven't tried this yet, as I keep forgetting to. Maybe someone can give it a go and let us know what happens!
hummingbird3172
2006-02-22, 9:37am
It could be anything...I doubt it has to do with the solution. To be honest, I haven't ALWAYS used the gloves, but I am not sticking my whole hand in or anything....maybe it was something I ate....or worse...*shudder* LOL
I ordered a titanium pen...until your post I didn't even know there was such a thing! lol
I can see all kinds of potential for using these titanium pens to draw designs for electroforming!
I am so excited about these pens! :)
<<<So how is everyone doing??? >>> Well! I have what I secretly suspect is a bad batch of solution from Rio! If true, this is a MAJOR BUMMER. Anna, did you get yours recently from Rio? If so, I am wondering if your rash is somehow related. The jury is still very much out on whether or not this is indeed a bad batch, since I won't be able to do definitive testing (vs. an old batch) until next weekend. But there are indications: regardless of where I set the amps/volts, I still got a dull gray, very crumbly copper coat. Another person, who also received a new bottle from Rio the week before last, also had exactly the same result, and she is a far more experienced electroformer.
I will report back as to the results of my testing week after next. In the meantime, if there is anyone out there who received a bottle of solution from Rio within the past two weeks, please let me know what your experiences are!
JanMD
VivianLampwork
2006-02-23, 6:19pm
I think something's wrong.....I'm getting the electroforming build up on my copper wire that's holding my work. I scrubbed my wire good, I have a good paint trail & a connection at the end of the wire on my work. I noticed this happening last night, so I took the piece off and painted the lines a little thicker & it's happening again. What the heck??
Corinne - GOC
2006-02-24, 2:44pm
I just got mine in from Rio about three days ago... only done one piece, but
1) very putty colored
2) the wire I am suspending it from got quite thickly coated
3) the copper on the bead, once it dried, seems solid (not crumbly) but it was crumbly off of the suspension wire.
Took polishing with a dremel to get to "copper" (not putty) ... I thought it just needed a "little scrub" with a brush.
I have done a little patina(ing) and here is the results:
After 1 hr
18573
After 11 hrs (done forming)
18574
After scrubbing with dremel and a grinding stone bit
18576
After a quick dip in stained glass black patina and a light dremel polish
18575
After about 24hrs development of a green patina and a dremel polish
18577
Now I think I will seal it and keep it this way....
I am afraid that it only looks decent because I patinaed over the remaining putty colored stuff ...
Does that help with the Rio Grand solution issue?
MaryBeth
2006-02-24, 4:39pm
Here is some info from Dalmar.net that might be pertinent to your salmon color problem:
Check the work piece
After the work piece has been in the solution for about 30 minutes, lift it out. If it looks like shiny, like a new copper penny, you are using the correct setting. If the piece is salmon color, with no shine, the setting is too low. A rust or brown color, indicates a setting that is too high. Also bumps and copper crystallizing are caused from a too high setting. After the first few minutes, there should be no further adjustments of the rectifier needed.
I'm setting mine up this weekend - still making pieces to electroform!:-D
hummingbird3172
2006-02-24, 5:10pm
Corinne! Wow that came out really nice!
Well, it appears that my rash was probably related to getting sun exposure while on medication...I probably had a phototoxic reaction...lovely.
Most of my electroforming issues seem to mostly be things I do wrong....miss a spot painting, need to etch the piece better...etc...
I have had some crumbly issues, but I was thinking maybe I had handled the piece too much after painting...and that sort of thing. I think I am going to like the titanium pens better than the copper paint...
Now, I am wondering....since the titanium pens are for permanently writing on glass....would that mean that you do NOT have to etch the piece before electroforming?
I have an idea about the copper paint...I am going to experiment with this before I say anything, but if it works it will be a very affordable source of paint.
Corinne - GOC
2006-02-26, 6:45am
so the question I have is that the bead, as it came out of the bath, was what I would call a salmon color (see above) ... I since tried a bead and increased the setting to over 1.0 and still no "shiney new penny" look just plain old salmon. Tink said it would look salmony (I think she said Silly Putty) so I am curious ... has anyone got the new penny look out of the bath? what were your settings?
I am curious about the idea that there may be a bad batch of solution out there .... any follow up to that?
Nothing new on the 'bad batch' from Rio issue. I plan on doing some comparison electroforming this coming weekend.
In the meantime, the issue has been brought to Rio's attention and they are also going to do some testing.
Will let you all know, if I find out anything.
JanMD
I just got my kit set up this morning and now I'm waiting for the paint to dry on the bead I'm going to start with. I was so amazed at how easy it was to set it all up. Tink, you did a great job in your manual and putting everything together.
I have to say thanks to all of you that have been working with it to date. I have learned so much already from this thread and will certainly put it all to use.
Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon my test bead will be done. Absolutely nothing fancy or good about the design. I decided I just want to make sure everything is in working order, I understand the whole process and so on before getting serious about designs and such. lol !
Thanks,
Debbie A.
Just walked in the door from three days teaching at Glass Axis, but wanted to check in on the thread and see how everyone is doing.
I *very* often get the salmon/silly putty color on my work because I electroform at a very low current. Once the buildup is as thick as you think you'd like it, just buff it with a wire brush (those wire brushes that look like toothbrushes) and it will shine it right up. No problemo. Don't obsess over getting the "new penny look". You're better off, in my opinion, to get the salmon look and then buff it rather than to build up your coating at too high a current. Why? Because at too high a current, the copper buildup is crumbly and not stable.
For a typical Tink vessel (they are about 1" - 1.25" tall) I start at .15 amps, then after a while I may bump it up to .25 amps or so.
Now... For the person getting a crumbly deposit on the wire and none on the bead: Make sure you have a GOOD connection between the wire and your paint trail! If necessary, cut the end of the wire at a bit of an angle to give it more contact area where it touches the paint.
Tink -
Can you put more than one bead in the solution at a time ?
Thanks,
Debbie A.
Yep, you sure can. Just remember that if you do, the current will be divided between the number of pieces you have in the bath.
For example: You wish to electroform two beads at the same time. You want the kind of copper deposit on these beads that you typically get at .20 amps with one bead in the bath. With two beads in the bath, you would set the amps at .40.
Each of the beads should be suspended from the cathode holder individually, not on the same wire. The two individual beads and their associated wires should not touch.
Thanks Tink ! Oh I just love this thread !~
Debbie A.
Corinne - GOC
2006-02-28, 7:58am
For a typical Tink vessel (they are about 1" - 1.25" tall) I start at .15 amps, then after a while I may bump it up to .25 amps or so.
Just for a note ... in your booklet, you mentioned to start at around 0.5 amps and adjust from there ... so that is where I was starting ...
Also, the dalmar site says 0.1/ square inch ... do you know whether that is square inch of conductive material (painted surface), or square inch of total project ...
Second query first: That is .1 amp per square inch of conductive area. Anything non-conductive is essentially inert, and doesn't affect the outcome.
First query: From the booklet "A half an amp is a good starting point. You may wish to turn it up or down a bit, depending upon the look you are going for. A nice, slow deposition of metal onto your work is better than a fast globby application, which can happen if your current is too high."
.5 is just a starting point. My work is very small, comparatively, and typically bears no more than 1 1/2 square inches of conductive area, which is why I start at .15 amps. If I do wish to go for a more textural, "bumpy" sort of look, I still start the work out at a very low rate of deposition, then up the amps later to add the texture.
Flamechick
2006-02-28, 10:05am
Embarrassed confession:
I've been pretty much avoiding this thread because I didn't really know what electroforming was, and it sounded way beyond my skill set. Then I saw the pic of Tink's vessel with that cool texture, and so now I'm curious. Electroforming is not what I thought it was, whatever that was. For those of us that are not familiar with this technique, could we get a general description of electroforming?
Thanks!
prairieson
2006-02-28, 11:47am
Embarrassed confession:
I've been pretty much avoiding this thread because I didn't really know what electroforming was, and it sounded way beyond my skill set. Then I saw the pic of Tink's vessel with that cool texture, and so now I'm curious. Electroforming is not what I thought it was, whatever that was. For those of us that are not familiar with this technique, could we get a general description of electroforming?
Thanks!
Electroforming is a type of electrodeposition, which means a metal coating is applied to an object by means of an electric current flowing through a solution containing the metal being coated.
It's basically the same thing as metal plating (chrome bumpers, gold-plated jewelry, silver-plated flatware, etc) except that the deposition of the metal is typically heavier in electroforming
Flamechick
2006-02-28, 12:25pm
Thanks for the description. I read through the thread and had a vague idea, but I didn't really understand how it all worked together. Up until this thread, it never occurred to me that it would be something I might be interested in, so thanks for educating me.
Amber - - If you'd like to look at some examples of electroforming on beads, go to the electroforming section on the Mid-Atlantic web site, here: http://www.sgb-midatlantic.org/how-tos.html#Electroforming, and click on some of the names in the top section, under the label 'Artists'.
If anyone else knows of some good online galleries of electroformed work, please let me know.
Tink - - Would it be possible for you to make the booklet that accompanies your kit separately available to folks? I have already assembled the kit, but I'd love a copy of your booklet. What say you, dearie?
JanMD
Flamechick
2006-03-01, 9:05am
Jan - thanks for the link - what a resource of information!
ltsexpressions
2006-03-01, 10:39pm
Just a little something else I wanted to mention. An LE member is selling some Titanium pens that she made. You can find the thread here (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14577).
What you may not know is that you can supposedly use Titanium pens to lay down a conductive line... Hmmmm... Give you any ideas? Yep. You can draw on your work with it and then electroform it, using the Titanium deposit to collect the copper instead of paint.
I haven't tried this yet, as I keep forgetting to. Maybe someone can give it a go and let us know what happens!
I have a TI Pen from a previous purchase.... actually it is MY pen that caused someone here to make them herself and now have them, right V? teehee...
I digress...
I played with my Ti Pen tonight and my pen plating kit (not my Tink Dunk Tank) and didn't get it work YET... but I was also distracted by trying to make boro pendants at the same time... multi-tasking result of not having had torch/play time in over a week and not getting much again until next week....
BUT, I'll keep you up to date....
back to reading.....
I took a Kate Fowle Melaney class a couple weeks ago and we used a brand new bottle of the Rio solution for the demo. She could not get it to work. She must've redone the set-up 10 times trying to get it to work and it never did. If SHE was having trouble with it, then you know something is wrong.
Rio was out of the solution when I tried to order it before getting the kit. I ordered from Dalmar and have had no troubles.
She is here next weekend. I'll let you know what we use! Paula
Tink - - Would it be possible for you to make the booklet that accompanies your kit separately available to folks? I have already assembled the kit, but I'd love a copy of your booklet. Possible? Probable? A chance?
JanMD
I've had a ton of requests for the booklet, and I'm still debating what to do. A lot of you guys know that I've distributed my silver core and riveted beads booklet freely over the years. I've been approached about having the electroforming booklet published, both as a book and as a magazine article, and I am still struggling with the decision.
The thing is that even if I distribute it on my own, I want it to be simply bound instead of stapled. I figure it will cost me over $6 each at the small quantities I'd need.
So I'm still debating and thinking about it. I've got a lot on my plate right now --- many committments that I'm trying to stay on top of. If and when I do make it available, I'll be sure to post in this thread, at least.
Thank you, Tink! I understand what you mean about a full plate. (I am a big believer in the adage that the more information you have, the better. I devour how-to info. While plunge-right-in trial+error is one very good way to learn, it's often not the most efficient way. I think you learn more quickly when you have some initial success. At least, I do.)
In any event, when you decide what you want to do, be sure to let us know.
JanMD
I have to run out for a while today, but I've decided to offer the booklet for sale by itself at least while I'm gone. We'll see how it goes and how I feel about it. Details on my tools (http://blackswampglassworks.com/tools.htm) page.
hummingbird3172
2006-03-04, 9:04pm
I tried something new for anodes..and they worked great. I had tried to find copper flashing but the only one I could find had a tar paper backing...So I used some small lengths of copper pipe with wire wrapped around them. So far they have worked GREAT! They are pretty thick so they should last quite awhile!
Tink, do you have any plans to sell the paint on your website?
Good job, Anna! I really encourage you guys to reach out and experiment like this. The ONLY right or wrong involved is "did it work?" and "did I get the result I wanted?" or even "did I learn something?"!
Yes, I do have the paint available. I just got it posted on my site (http://blackswampglassworks.com/eform.htm). It's a little jar like the one in the kit for $10 including shipping. I have added the paint to the Tink Store along with pre-cut and punched anodes.
For a limited time I am also offering the instructional book (http://blackswampglassworks.com/eform.htm) for sale. I just put up a Buy It Now PayPal button for it today.
For those of you wanting to electroform big stuff or who have a need for more paint (but not a whole pint) Safer Solutions is now offering their conductive paint in a 4 oz size.
Corinne - GOC
2006-03-05, 6:00am
A lot of you guys know that I've distributed my silver core and riveted beads booklet freely over the years.
Hey is it still available? I would love to get my hands of the Tink style of doing this!
MaryBeth
2006-03-10, 4:03pm
Well I finally got my electroforming rig set-up. However, being the stubborn person that I am I decided to try this on a non-etched bead! The set-up worked perfectly - I purchased my solution from Dalmar. However - you -guessed it - the whole thing peeled off the bead. So - I learned something8-)
So - I peeled that whole thing and I etched it. Then I repainted it last night. I just now put it back in the solution. (Isn't it a thing of beautfy when those displays light up - contact - yeah!)
I really like the look of etched beads - but there has to be a way to do this on a shiny bead. I looked up every single photograph of electroformed beads that I could fins. And - I did find many that were most certainly shiny!
So does any one want to give up the secret on how to do this? I'm thinking of buying some etching creme to get a good etch on the selected areas where I will place the paint. Has anyone tried this - I mean really - it should work - maybe?
OMG I just LOVE that moment when I turn everything on. LOL!
Seems like every couple of months, I just HAVE TO try the process on a non-etched or blasted piece. Like I think the laws of physics are going to change when I'm not paying attention or something.
You can mask off the areas that you DON'T want to etch. Then just apply the copper paint to the etched areas.
MaryBeth
2006-03-11, 1:39pm
Yay - it worked! Now I need to go get a brass brush! I think the .15 is just right for smaller pieces - I do need to use a lighter touch with the paint - less is more. I might post a pic once I get the finish I want on the copper.
I have a ton more ideas to try. Now to see if I can get this sculptural bead I want to electroform out of my head and onto the mandrel!
Thanks again, Tink for putting these kits together. I probably wouldn't have bothered on my own. I really feel like my creativity is flowing again.:cool:
Did you get your brass brush? How did it go? Pics?
MaryBeth
2006-03-21, 1:28pm
Yes - I did get my brash brush! I purchased a couple of brushes that fit my Dremel. I really liked the finish - I am not in love with my design - however.
I might post a pic later today.
I have some ideas for some more things to electroform - just need to make them. I need to blast myself out of my bead set, small bead rut. It's really starting to bore me.
Some maximum nubbly electro. Perhaps I'm getting a little carried away with the patina solution.....
21603
21606
Noooooooooooooooooo! It's beautiful! I'm a patina freak, and I love love love what you've done with those!
I'm hoping the latest bunch of rectifiers gets in soon so I can ship out more kits. I love seeing what everyone done with this stuff!
Thank you! (...taking a bow...) I ought to get your booklet this week and I am looking forward to it. Here is another over-the-top patina number. This one is really too much. Even I can see that.
21605
JanMD
MaryBeth
2006-03-26, 8:53pm
Jan - I love that patina! It goes perfectly with the base bead! Care to share the tech you used for it?
My method? Sure! I use Rio's "Midas Green Patina" solution (catalog #335-120). Other stuff -- nail brush, detergent, one old mayo jar, old bent mandrel, wooden skewer, copper foil, 9x9 pyrex cake pan, Renaissance Wax, polishing cloth.
Steps:
1- Polish the tops of the tiny knobs that you want to remain shiny (I use silicone polishing wheels on the flex shaft but you could use fine sandpaper or whatever) and then scrub the whole piece with a nail brush and detergent. Dry it off.
2- Get out an old bent mandrel and make a small hook at one end. Hang the bead on it and trim the mandrel so the bead will hang in the middle of your empty mayo jar. Put a quarter inch of the patina solution in the bottom of a mayo (or similar) jar. Use an old brush to brush the solution all over the copper parts of the piece. Precision isn't important at this point. Just coat it well.
3- Using the small hook, hang the mandrel on a wooden skewer centered over the top of a glass jar, with the bead hanging down inside.
4- Cover the jar with close-fitting foil. (I use heavy copper foil from the craft store, which is kind of molded over the skewer and around the rim. I'm not sure what the patina solution would do to regular tin foil.)
5- Put the jar in a 9x9 pyrex cake pan and put the whole thing on top of the hot kiln. (I'm sure the pyrex pan part isn't absolutely necessary, but I am afraid of a heat-cracked jar and a glopped-up kiln top. So better safe than sorry.)
6- You may have to flip the bead over once during the cook-time and re-coat it with the patina. But once the patina color is about twice the density you like (about two hours or so) remove the bead and scrub again with the nail brush to get off all the excess patina. Air dry very well.
6- Seal it all with Renaissance Wax (http://www.restorationproduct.com/renwaxinfo.html). I use a very stiff bristle brush to get the wax into (and then out of) all the crevasses. And then I polish it, first with paper towels, and then with a polishing cloth.
JanMD
MaryBeth
2006-03-27, 7:09am
Thank you so much!
KathyB
2006-03-27, 11:08am
so....
This weekend I made beads that are especially for electroforming. I'll post results.
I have to admit I'm feeling nervous about setting up my kit! 8-[
Here we go!!!! [-o<
Kathy, you'll do fine. I promise! John and I will be out of town this weekend from Thursday through Monday, but the folks in this thread have a bounty of knowledge that I know they'll share with you if you have any questions or problems.
Once you have done it once, you will breathe a sigh of relief. It's really very easy. You'll see!
Not to put any pressure on or anything (lol) but I'll be looking for pics of your electroformed work here when I get home Thursday night :-)
Question: Why do the holes in the anodes have to be above the top of the solution? What possible difference could that make in the process?
Answer: (smacking forehead!) What a silly question! The reason that the holes in the anodes (and more vitally, the wires that attach them to the conducting rod) have to be outside the solution is so they won't vanish. So they won't lose material to the deposition process and disappear.
Duh!
JanMD
I have received Tink's booklet, the one that comes with her electroforming kit, and it's very informative. Thank you, Tink!!!
One comment on the page 4 section entitled Preparing your work for Electroforming: I have had no problems electroforming on beads that have been neither sandblasted nor etched. If the bead is totally clean and dry, I have had no trouble with the conductive paint staying in place.
On the contrary, the challenge for me is to devise a design that will ensure that the electroformed portion will stay in place. As I think about the design of the electroformed element, I keep having to remind myself that -- in the end -- the copper is not and will not be attached to the bead. Rather, it is a cage or frame sitting on the surface of the bead. Consequently, the copper element has to be conceived so that it wraps around the bead in such a way that it stays snug. Tink makes note of this when she says that "Your design should also wrap around the piece to a certain degree to help hold it in place."
I have found that sending an electroformed arm from one cap to the other, all by itself across the face of a big lentil, will not work. The dang arm won't stay snug enough to the face of the bead (whether or not the bead is etched), particularly if it has a bend in it. The bend catches a bit on some fabric or on something else and is bent away from the face of the bead. Arrgh. A mega-cage (such as I have done on the Big Blue Patina World Bead) is one way to make it all snug. In doing so you lose most of the bead underneath the cage.
The technique that works well for me is creating undercut knobs at the top and bottom of the bead, and then electroforming these, as I've done in the bead where I show the back and front. The undercut holds the caps snug very efficiently.
Last comment on Tink's book: While she credits Kate Fowle Meleney for being a trailblazer, in her list of Resources Tink does not mention Kate's Kervin book -- The Enamel and Electroform Decorated Beads of Kate Fowle Meleney (http://katefowle.com/book.htm)-- which has a whole how-to section on electroforming on beads. Tink also neglects to mention Kate's website, which shows many examples of electroformed beads in the galleries (http://katefowle.com/gallery_new_biotech.htm).
But again, my thanks to Tink for her hard work on this booklet and for helping to get the good word out on this fascinating technique.
Bravo, Tink!!
JanMD
PS – I’d also like to recommend another book, entitled The Penland School of Jewelry: Master Classes in Jewelry Techniques (Martha Le Van, 2005). There is an entire 18-page ‘class lesson’ in it on electroforming, featuring Maria Phillips. And there is a 6-page gallery at the end of that chapter that shows the work of other jewelry designers who use electroforming. Excellent book!
WOOT!
HA HA HA!! I did it!
I started the solution around 10pm Saturday night (not a good idea). So I had to get up all night to check on the progress. I might add I didn't HAVE to... I was just excited and couldn't sleep. :roll:
Here's the results- patina'ed, waxed, and finished. I am so inspired!!!
22682
22684
22685
The finished pieces are not small (the spike one is two inches)- and when you add the copper, these are not light weight pieces. I really enjoyed all of the process. I used 3 different patina methods and I think I like the last one best. It's a natural red wine vinegar and salt solution set in the sun. The top two pieces are patina's I got from RIO Grande- green and red brown. The pieces took about 2 hours to "coat" and I did get a shiney penny like look- especially the first bead. Must be virgin solution. :badgrin:
The last one had a hard time plating the bumps on the inside of the design. You can see where it sorta peeled off. I'll be more careful next time.
QUESTION: If I want to redo that bead- do I have to peal EVERYTHING off? All the copper bits and start over?
I'm really happy with my first shot out of the box. I'll post more as I go.
I can't wait to make more... I have a zillion ideas now.
MaryBeth
2006-04-05, 10:37am
Kathy - those are gorgeous!
I have a question about your bead in the second photo. It the electroforming truly just in the center like that without anything wrapping around the bead? Or is there a lip around the circle that I can't see?
I have some design ideas where I also want to do a center design but I thought there had to be some part of the design wrapped in such a way to anchor the whole thing.
As far as your question about redoing a bead - I redid one and I just peeled the whole design off as it was too loose anyway. But if your "bits" are stuck tight I don't see why you couldn't electroform over them again.
Last comment on Tink's book: While she credits Kate Fowle Meleney for being a trailblazer, in her list of Resources Tink does not mention Kate's Kervin book -- The Enamel and Electroform Decorated Beads of Kate Fowle Meleney (http://katefowle.com/book.htm)-- which has a whole how-to section on electroforming on beads. Tink also neglects to mention Kate's website, which shows many examples of electroformed beads in the galleries (http://katefowle.com/gallery_new_biotech.htm).I hope to get caught up on this thread today. We've been in and out of town so much that I've gotten a bit behind. I apologize.
As I was perusing my email, this post came through and I wanted to comment. PLEASE realize that this is NOT a book. It's a booklet. I've written books, and I have written booklets. This is not a book. As I say right on the front page: This booklet is intended for use in conjunction with electroforming workshops and kits offered by Tink Martin. It is not meant to be a complete instruction manual. Please familiarize yourself with the process and inherent dangers before attempting to electroform. These instructions and any associated kit are offered in good faith, with the assumption that you will use common sense and care in applying these techniques.Ok. That said, I wanted to mention that the list of sources I give at the end of the booklet are not meant to be all inclusive or exhaustive. If that were the case, the list would have gone on forever, as I investigated and devoured many, many, many books on the topic while learning to electroform.
Yep. I sure do credit Kate for being a trailblazer:First, a thank you to Kate Fowle Meleney. Her generosity, knowledge and trailblazing nature landed me firmly on the path of electroforming. Thank you, Kate!I then go on to list URLs to two of the articles she has written on the topic. To be honest, I figured that since the two articles have pretty much the same information as in the book (as related to electroforming) and that you can access them online, and that there are TONS of pictures of Kate's gorgeous electroformed works in those articles, PLUS the fact that Kate's URL is also listed there that that would be enough.
I will be happy to include that information in future printings. Apologies if anyone was upset by this.
Regarding the etching/sandblasting of glass in preparation for electroforming: I have been able to bypass that step ONLY when nearly the entire piece is being electroformed, and the design so totally enrobes the glass that it cannot help but stay on. I have found that etching/sandblasting does give more freedom of design, at least in my experience. As with anything, your experience may differ. All I can offer to folks is what my experience has been.
Kathy, those are some luscious works!!! About your question: Did you just want to add more layers to the design you already have laid down, or do you want to change the whole design?
KathyB
2006-04-05, 12:40pm
MaryBeth- I wanted an "endcap" look. One side pealed off the other stayed on. Why? Dunno. It's a mystery. I'm going to do some more with this one side look too- I like it alot! It does NOT go all the way through. I don't think you can tell from the photo, but the bead shape is "boob"-like. (I couldn't think of a correct name for the shape. sorry!) It pokes out like a bicone wannabe. Maybe that is helping it stay on? Again- to me it's a mystery.
Tink- some of the parts I wanted plated didn't plate, but I don't want to add more copper onto the parts that did. Mostly I'm wondering if the patina solution will contaminate my plating solution if I plop it back in.
Ahhh... Now I see! Kathy, if you have already applied the patina, I would (at the very least) get rid of the patina before going back into the solution.
<<<I also really love the cloisonne beads I've seen, and I was wondering, if you could substitute the metal inlay step with electroforming?>>>
Yes! Artists electroform the ridges onto the copper sheets, instead of etching or making an inlay sheet. Melissa Huff is an artist that uses electroforming to create the areas for the enamels: http://www.state.il.us/agency/iac/IAC%20Fellowship%20Web%20Pages/Crafts%20Recipients/Huff/Photos.htm
JanMD
Unfortunately doing that renders champlevet as a finished product or so close as to be of no great concern to any but a purest. Cloisonne is different. The two enameling processes are different enough that classing them as each other is about the same as classing lampworking and slumping as each other.
A.
on further consideration one could also acheive the effect of Basse Taille with electro forming. with or without the use of other enameling techniques. One may even be able to achieve Plique-a-jour with electroforming. I even see a way where it would be possible to use electro forming to create peices with limoge enameling and Plique-a-jour with or without the presence of other styles. unfortunately cloisonne is again very different than any of these other enameling tecniques... and no amount of consideration on the method shows any way of creating cloisons with electro forming.
Kathy! Kathy! Excellent work! Those three pieces are all great. I really like the way you patterned the little tiny balls on the first two. Very nice! It gives me so many ideas! I am in major mojo-electro mode now where I have about five pieces waiting to go into the solution. And about five more in my mind, waiting to get out. It's SO MUCH FUN to see everyone else's work. This is great!! (And with the "boob"-like piece, if you use a spot of epoxy to keep the breastplate on, I won't tell!)
Tink, again I have to thank you for your outstanding booklet and all the info there. It was very generous of you to offer to disaggregate the booklet from the kit and allow folks to buy it separately. There is much in your booklet that I didn't know, even with having read everything about electroforming that I can get my hands on. I highly recommend it to everyone. It's laughable that you might suspect that I was "upset" by anything in (or left out of) your excellent booklet. On the contrary. I thought it was super. I am very sorry that I didn't make that 100% crystal clear. I thank you once again, Tink, and tip my hat! (By the way, it was very brave of you to venture out into the world of the electron flow theories, the atoms, and the charged ions. Bravo! But again, in my opinion, you can't ever know too much about anything. Every bit of info is a plus.)
Everyone who is interested in electroforming on glass beads or small vessels ought to buy Tink’s booklet. It is a well-thought-out introduction to this aspect of our art, in my opinion. With this booklet, some imagination, and the electro kit, you will have A LOT OF FUN, I guarantee you! It’s a hoot!
JanMD
Oh, wait! I forgot to ask what I originally set out to ask. Has anyone tried to plate over the electroformed copper? I was thinking that silver or gold plating on the copper might be cool to try, provided the process wasn't too poisonous.
Has anyone out there tried "pen plating"? What is it, exactly?
JanMD
Ok...
Do you guy pour your soution back into the container when you're done or do you keep it in the beaker?
Also- one thing I looked all over for was time. How much time does it take to plate the average bead to a average thickness? To get the look I got it took 3 hours. Of course you have to take into account my repeatedly taking the bead in and out.. in and out.. in and out.. of the solution to look at it. :cool:
Oh, wait! I forgot to ask what I originally set out to ask. Has anyone tried to plate over the electroformed copper? I was thinking that silver or gold plating on the copper might be cool to try, provided the process wasn't too poisonous.
Has anyone out there tried "pen plating"? What is it, exactly?
Absolutely. Ann Davis, who with Kate Fowle Meleney is one of the pioneers of electroforming on beads (and like Kate, is a total sweetheart), teaches silverplating and gold pen plating in her electroforming class. You can use the same rectifier. For silver plating, you need the plating solution for silver and (obviously) anodes of fine silver rather than copper. The technique is pretty much the same as for the copper electroforming, but much quicker because you're just depositing a thin layer of fine silver over the copper.
Pen plating is done with a device that's something like a felt tip pen with a gold-containing solution as the "ink." The pen connects to your rectifier and you draw with it on your silver. I can't recall exactly why, but I remember that Ann said that you should use the gold plating pen on fine silver, not on sterling. If you want to add gold touches to a sterling piece, you can give it a quick electroplating of fine silver first. (Sorry -- my notes from Ann's class aren't in the same place I am right now, so I can't check them to refresh my memory on why pen plating on sterling isn't a terrific idea.)
If you have the Rio Tools & Equipment catalog, take a look at the pen plating stuff -- it may give you a better idea than my "sort of like a felt tip pen thingy" description does.
Emily, thanks for the answer! Since I posted that question, I ordered the 'Midas Guide to Plating' booklet from the Rio catalog and it does indeed have a section on pen plating. The booklet is at the studio, but as I recall there was much made of having to 'pre-plate' some metals before plating with the good stuff (gold and silver) to prevent tarnish from coming up from below. So that's most likely why you are discouraged from plating on top of sterling.
Ann lives here in metro DC and I am going to call her to see if I can get a personal tutorial on all of this. The description of her electroforming class that she has on her website sounds outstanding -- http://www.anndavisstudio.com/electroforming.htm.
Where did you take her class? Was it at the Gathering?
JanMD
glass_beads
2006-04-19, 3:55am
I have a couple of simple Q's that I think any of you can answer for me. My kit arrived yesterday but I'm waiting on my Rio order with the solution so I have till then to get all my ducks in a row. I read though the tink manual and now have a couple of basic easy questions.
* Where do I find distilled water? The last time I saw distilled water was 1986 in Chemistry class ;-)
* How long (approx.) do the copper anodes last before you need to replace them? I realize this will vary but based on your personal experience how long?
* I have several Q's about the copper paint. How long do you use that one container -- approx how many pieces can you paint before you need more -- just trying to figure if I should order more right away or if the little jar is deceiving and lasts far longer than one would think. If you use distilled water to work with the paint, do you find yourself dipping the brush into the paint first then adding a smidgen of distilled water to it then to thin it out in a seperate spot (not sure if this is coming out right) trying to figure out how super careful you need to be when using the distilled water with the paint...will it contaminate the paint if you dipped your brush into the water then the paint is I guess what I'm asking.
I have to head to the big "city" for an appt tomorrow so I'm hoping to pick up all the odds and ends I need (like coffee filters and distilled water).
Thanks so much....I have learned so much from this thread already!
I found gallon jugs of distilled water at the grocery store. If it isn't there, try an old fashioned pharmacy.
Or, as a last resort, raid the supplies cabinet at your local high school chem lab. (Do they even still teach chemistry in high school anymore?)
JanMD
glass_beads
2006-04-21, 3:21am
Thanks Jan. Nobody in my small town carried it but I ventured down river (half hour away) to Walmart and they had plenty of it! I got all the odds and ends I will be needing (funnel, coffee filters -- we use one of those gold filters so obviously I don't want to be using the same one to make coffee as I use to strain electroforming "soup"...lol -- got containers to hold the supplies and the Glad container to hold the distilled water, etc). Then when I got back I set everything up and today's the day my order from Rio should get here. So today I will paint my beads and this afternoon or tonight I should be ready to fire up the soup! Yippee!
glass_beads
2006-04-22, 2:46pm
Troubleshooting:
(I think I may have a series of minor issues that are leading to a poorer quality of electroforming and I'm hoping that if I run this by you, you might be able to help me correct where I'm going wrong)
* Although I etched my beads, then cleaned them well in distilled water, then allowed the paint to dry for 12 hours (on the first bead) overnight for the remaining beads, wore my gloves while painting them so I wouldn't get any oils from my hands on them,yada yada yada -- I still think I may not have adequately painted them. Here's why:
- The first bead I painted I had runny paint -- I hadn't realized some areas of the jar are thicker consistency than others so I am certain that with my drippy paint on that particular bead that I may have gotten paint inside the bead hole so when I went to move the wire holding the bead to reposition it, it was too firmly adhered to the bead at the bead holes. (Mistake #1 I guess...lol) But, despite my first error, I was pleased with how the electroforming was looking and how it was coming along. At any rate, I cleaned up and packed up for the night and figured I'd try again the next day with a different bead.
- Day 2 (today) I reread the manual in case I'd overlooked any fine details the day before, I selected a bead with a nice opaque paint coating and set it on it's way. It has been in the bath all day, but when I went to reposition the wire all the electroforming came off along with the paint underneath. I'm not entirely sure where I went wrong with this bead. So I repositioned the wire and got going again -- later in the day the same thing happened. Again, I was happy with how the electroforming was turning out and I suspect it was something in the manner in which I painted the bead, but I could be wrong.
Moving on to other observations:
* is it normal for there to be copper colored "sludge" at the bottom of the beaker when pouring the soup back into the container (via funnel and coffee filters of course -- I suppose this is what the purpose of the filters is, just wanting to make sure).
* I clearly have far more copper sludge in the bottom of my Glad distilled water container than on my first 2 bead attempts -- is this normal?
* Now that the paint on my beads has dried I have noticed some areas on a couple of them that are less than opaque -- may I add more paint to a bead or must I clean all the existing paint off and start over?
* When I opened my jar of paint, using the end of my brush I pushed that hard thick layer of paint down into the jar with the remaining paint -- should I have discarded that thick layer? I guess I was thinking along the lines of dried up bead release that you scrape off the edges and it reconstitutes with mixing. I shouldn't second guess myself, I'm quite certain that was okay -- but it also makes me wonder, should I mix it up with a toothpick or something?
I know I'm neurotic 8-[ Even though I messed up with my first two beads I am having so much fun. I feel like a mad scientist! I think my Tink-manual is nearly dogearred already I have reread that thing so many times...I hang on her every word! I know there is a learning curve to anything new and I'm having such a fun time with this experiment. I have so many ideas buzzing about my head. I've even been sketching out new bead ideas and that's something I haven't done in YEARS! So anyway, if it sounds like I'm moving in the right direction even though I've had some mistakes just reassure me -- if you see something obvious that I'm doing wrong please give me a nudge into the right direction.
And really, despite my errors so far, I am thrilled with the areas on the bead that have turned out nice. Eeeeee...it's so exciting!
Tink you are my hero! :kiss:
Tink is a hero to all of us! I'm hoping she'll check in and answer all our questions.
<<<It has been in the bath all day, but when I went to reposition the wire all the electroforming came off along with the paint underneath. >>>
I re-position my bead vis-à-vis the wire once every hour or so. I had been noticing a tiny un-electroformed bald spot on the edge of the hole, where the wire had been touching the paint. To fix it I had to touch-up with the paint, let it dry overnight, and give it an additional bath. For a number of reasons that you can imagine, this was a big pain in the rear. So now I just re-position the bead on the wire every hour or so and now there aren't any more bald spots!
<<<is it normal for there to be copper colored "sludge" at the bottom of the beaker >>> I have the same thing, and I assume it's normal. Tink? Is it? Is it okay to leave it down there as a quiet sediment or must it be filtered out?
What is that stuff, anyway?
<<< may I add more paint to a bead or must I clean all the existing paint off and start over? >>> I am eager to see the answer to this one. I just add more paint and let it dry overnight again, with no ill effects. Tink, is this okay?
Kate suggests that you always continue your paint down a little bit, down inside the hole, both to help anchor the whole copper design to the bead and to make sure you have a good extensive area for the wire to come into contact with the paint. The added bonus is that the copper skin will cover any tiny nicks in the glass around the hole! Which I sometimes get since I am a little slap-dash with the diamond reamer on the wireless Dremel when I am cleaning the hole.
JanMD
Holy Cow! I am WAY behind on this thread! Sorry, guys! I see that y'all are stepping in and helping one another though, and that is PERFECT!
I'm going to pick and choose a couple of things to address: If I don't hit on the things that are important to you, just bring it up again. I'm leaving for Atlanta on Wednesday, and will be pretty busy between now and then too.
Working with the paint: There's an instruction sheet in the little bag with the paint. You can/should dilute the paint a bit (per the instructions) with distilled water. Use a little dental spatula or similar tool to press any lumps out and make it nice and smooth. I usually paint my design, let it dry, then paint over it again. It's not a thick application of paint, nor is it an application of thick paint --- It's just a nice, even, smooth application of paint with no thin spots.
Sludge: I think of it as electroforming poop :-) When I'm on an eforming bent, I will leave my beaker and stuff all set up for two or three weeks at a time. I can do this because it's in my office and I can close the door and keep the doggie out. Sludge does build up in the bottom of the beaker, but I haven't seen that it has any ill effect. When I finally pack the stuff away, I filter the solution through coffee filters back into the bottle it came in. When it's set up, but not in use, I cover the beaker with plastic wrap to slow down evaporation. Before I use it again, I add distilled water to the beaker, taking it up to the 1000ml mark.
Paint/Copper coming off work: I confess that I haven't had any difficulty with this since I started sandblasting everything before eforming it. Some folks have said they have no trouble at all electroforming on un-etched or un-blasted glass, but I do. I suspect it's as much a function of the design itself as anything.
glass_beads
2006-04-23, 11:13am
Thanks Tink and Jan. I chose a bead with a nice paint job today and set the soup with a lower setting and it's making such a difference. I think tomorrow I will do another layer of paint on the beads that don't look quite perfect. The wait is the hardest part. I want to put it in the soup and come back an hour late to a bead that's done -- I remember feeling that way when I first started making beads and having to wait for the darn kiln to ramp down. LOL!
Re: the paint instruction sheet -- sounded like it was "optional" so I'd opted not to fuss with it for the 1st time...lol. I'm timid like this about everything I do...doubt myself and such -- but all that matters to me is that I enjoy the process! Thanks again for all the help -- I think I am doing okay with it now.
Glass_Beads.......PICTURES!! WE NEED PICTURES!! Even if it's one you didn't like. I love looking at the stuff folks are doing, how they're coming out... what they've changed to make it work...
Just received my copy of 'Electroplating and Electroforming for Artists and Craftsmen', by LS Scott and JH Scott (1979). Not much news in it, although it is very comprehensive.
Few new (for me) items from the book:
-- "It is important that the surface area of anodes be proportionate to the surface area of the cathode object to be plated.” (p. 24) Hmmm. My anodes are considerably larger in total surface area than is the average area on the bead to be plated. I may try to do a few beads with smaller anodes and if I do, I’ll report back if I see a difference in performance or quality of deposition.
-- “Some anodes (especially nickel and copper) change their surface chemistry after a period in solution and cease to release ions. They become effectively insoluble, leading to a depletion of ions and an end to electrodeposition.” (p. 25) Hmmm!!! (This sentence is in the paragraph that describes how to use cloth bags around the anodes to keep sludge from getting into the electrolyte solution.) I have definitely noticed my copper plates developing a rough, kind of matte tan finish and I’ll betcha that’s exactly what they are talking about here. And it probably has slowed my process down considerably. This book doesn’t describe how to return your copper anodes to peak efficiency, but since this is a problem with “surface chemistry”, grinding and sanding them back to a shiny copper finish ought to do it. I wonder if a pickle bath for the anodes at intervals would also help maintain good “surface chemistry”.
There are other interesting things in this book, particularly in the section that describes in detail the acid copper bath process, which is what we use. There is a section there on “faults” and how to solve them (a troubleshooting section) and “Modifications to Achieve Different Effects”, such as brighter, thicker, increased rate, decreased graininess. Useful info!
JanMD
Darlene Balkcum
2006-04-29, 2:23pm
Jan,
where did you purchase the book?
Thanks Darlene
I didn’t buy it; I borrowed it through the library. My library didn’t have it, so I ordered it through our Interlibrary Loan service. All academic libraries offer that service (researchers often need stuff that we don't have), as do most big public libraries.
If you want to look for a used copy to buy, try Amazon’s Bibiofind.com. It’s a website where used book dealers list their stuff. (A standard search on Amazon takes you there as a default, if it doesn’t find the book in its new book database.)
JanMD
Dried mushrooms come in all kinds of wonderfully interesting shapes. BEWARE: if you coat one in conductive paint in an attempt to electroform it, be SURE to cover the whole thing thoroughly. (Or better yet, dip a few times in some kind of acrylic sealant first.)
Because if there is just one dot of uncovered mushroom -- voila! -- the mushroom will do its thing. It will swell up, burst the electroforming paint, and contaminate the heck our of your solution.
JanMD (temporarily brain dead when initially contemplating electroformed mushrooms....)
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-11, 5:02pm
Tink, is there some kind of resist you can put over parts you don't want electroformed? I'm thinking specifically copper wire right now.
FedEx tells me that my kit should be here tomorrow and I am SO ready!!!
Like copper wire wrapped around a bead that you don't want to electroform?
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-12, 4:16am
Well, kind of, but just parts of the wire. I'm not thinking beads though but fused cabs that have been wire-wrapped with copper and possibly covering the bail part with something...
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-12, 2:39pm
OK, I got an answer to that one and........it's here!!!!!\\:D/ Already got one in the blue man soup. Yippeeeee!
Eek! Sorry, I'm a little behind on this thread.
Already have one in the bath??? Geez! Were you standing at your door with a cab at the ready when FedEx got there? LOL!
So I'm guessing you found the booklet to be ok? I'm always looking to improve it. Thoughts?
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-12, 3:24pm
LOL! I had the cab ready last night.:-) Did I mention I was excited? As far as the booklet goes, it's terrific really. The only little itty bitty thing was me flipping back and forth between the written step-by-step and the pictures at the end. Not a problem, but it took seconds away from me getting that puppy in the bath. LOL! Did I mention I was a little excited? OK, a lot. I just got done painting one for when this one is done. Wheeeee!!!
*chuckle* Glad you're having fun :-) See? It's not scary at all, is it?
I have two kits left, and one that's on hold until the end of the month, in case anyone is interested.
And now, I'm off to conquer this darn headache. Show us PICS, Rebecca!!!!
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-13, 11:27am
Scary? Not even a little. Well, this is the first. Not at all sure I like it even a tiny bit. It looks too heavy I think. Trying for delicate on the next one. Whatever. I popped my cherry. \\:D/
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/1158394/11506529/166725086.jpg
I think it's beautiful!!!!!!!!!
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-13, 12:56pm
Thank you Tink.:-)
Firelilly
2006-07-15, 5:51am
I love how bold that piece looks, Rebecca. Very cool! Do more more more! =D>
Lil
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-15, 10:13am
Thanks Lil! More you say? (that reminds me of Oliver!. *giggle*)
I have a couple more by chance. Oh and a question too for Tink or.....
This thing is hugely big! Must be more careful with the wire work darnit.:) I thought it might get all nubbly and textured, but it's pretty smooth.
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/1158394/11506529/167398907.jpg
This piece of glass is from a pot melt, aperture pour whatever you wanna call them. It's been my favorite little piece of glass for....maybe 2 years. Looks to me like a waterfall. I like this one.
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/1158394/11506529/167398931.jpg
OK, the question...I melted both of my anodes already. Is this normal? I've only done 3 pieces. They are pretty big pieces though. For the most part the rectifier was set on .50, is that too much?
I love that waterfall! What's a "pot melt"? Some kind of blowers' lingo right? That is a delightful piece and I can see why it's your fav. It's almost like you can walk right into it, it's so 3D. Excellent!!
<<<<I melted both of my anodes already. Is this normal? I've only done 3 pieces. They are pretty big pieces though. >>> I started out using 18 gauge copper sheets and they dissolved pretty fast. I believe that's normal. I ordered little 1/4" x 3" x 2" slabs from Small Parts and they are lasting far longer. If you do that, be sure to order the "pure" copper. The only pain in the butt was drilling the holes in them, so I could suspend them from wires. Since each is 1/4" thick, it took a bit of time. Drill, drill, drill, drill......
<<<For the most part the rectifier was set on .50, is that too much?>>>> I think Tink recommends starting at .3 to get a good "base" and then moving to .5. Right, Tink?
JanMD
Three Muses Glass
2006-07-16, 8:27am
Thanks Jan! I also have been told by a freind that it's normal to go through the anodes so quickly. So I'm trying copper pipe right now. LOL! Might go to HD or Lowe's today and get a copper T fitting to slide right over the anode holder thing and have the long part of the T in the bath. The pipe seems to be working but I've no idea if it's 'pure' copper. When you cut through the stuff it looks like it. Anyway it seems to be working and I didn't 'splode myself.:-)
The pot melt isn't blown...I put a tut for tiny ones in the fusing room here, but this piece is from a big one, all done in the kiln.
Firelilly
2006-07-17, 5:10am
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL205/1158394/11506529/167398931.jpg
Oh! Fabu! :love:
Lil
*sigh* I had a big long reply entered and my left pinky hit SOME key and sent me off to another page. Grrr...
Anyway, check with local heating and roofing suppliers to see about getting scrap copper sheet. It's usually a good deal.
As for settings... It's such a personal preference thing. I tend to like to lay down a thin, smooth layer. Other folks like a more nubbly application. The best thing to do is play with the settings and TAKE NOTES.
More pix of recent pieces. I like the cylinders (lower right) and am planning on adding PMC caps to them. Might be cool!
JanMD
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MaryBeth
2006-07-30, 10:54am
There is some really gorgeous work in this thread!
I'm finally getting ready to get back to this - I've had one crazy summer that have severely limited my beadmaking time:shock:
prairieson
2006-07-31, 6:06pm
I just ran across and example of electroforming-run-amok in the Summer 2006 issue of Urban Glass Quarterly. A project by Jerry Pethick titled "Time Top".
The 12+ foot structure, now on public display in Vancouver, BC, was dropped into the Pacific off the Canadian coast in August of 2004 and retrieved in April of this year. While submerged,the object was wired such that a constant, low-current flow ran through it. The current attracted particles suspended in the seawater and created a silica-based glass-like coating.
That's almost two years in the "soup", I don't think I'd have that kind of patience. Talk about extreme!
Waaaaaay cool!!! Here is a pic, of sorts: http://www.catrionajeffries.com/d_j_pethick_news.html
Ain't art grand?
JanMD
prairieson
2006-08-01, 8:48am
Cool! Thanks Jan, I tried to find an image last night but it's so hot in my office my brain was toast, lol.
I'm seeing a field trip for our clases in Victoria/Vancouver next year!
I like this one. I am going to do more of these.
JanMD
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glass_beads
2006-08-14, 5:29pm
My recent work has been very smooth, as I'm in "smooth mode" right now. LOL! This one was totally slick and shiny before I fumed it with ammonia to make it get the nice verdigris patina:
16070
How long are you fuming with the ammonia? The reason I ask is because I followed the fume-ziplock-chamber instructions to a tee twice and each time my copper turned black. Am I not leaving it in long enough? Am I leaving it in too long? The first time I thought I had maybe accidently let the bead touch the ammonia paper towel so I just wrote it off as user error...but the other day when I tried it again, I was super-duper careful yet I still got a black surface. I just took a new bead outta the soup and would love to try the ammonia thing again but I'm askeered...what do you think I could be doing wrong????? I swear I'm such a dumbass sometimes!
Melissa, are you dipping the work in a supersaturated salt water solution first?
glass_beads
2006-08-15, 3:14am
Melissa, are you dipping the work in a supersaturated salt water solution first?
Bwahaha...why, I do declare, I never wrote that part of the instructions down. Hahaha. #-o I knew I must be missing some crucial step! Thank you Tink. I will try that with the bead I took outta the soup last night. Wish me luck! [-o<
New pic of a Kim V. work, from another thread: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=700055&postcount=240
Love the patina! Very lush!
More from Kim V. --> http://www.kimvglass.com/catalog.php?category=20
JanMD
Wow ! I'm glad I read this thread. I received my kit from Tink more than a couple of weeks ago -maybe not much more. Haven't started using it yet because of a fragmented summer schedule. Now I'l be sure not to underestimate the details of the job. Thank you everyone - congratulations on all of the beautiful work.
Zulekah
2006-09-10, 11:58am
Hi There! I just looked at your vessels, Tink, and they are beautiful!! I hope to take one of your classes one day.
I am very interested in learning electroforming, but when I went to your site I couldn't see any offers of these kits. How do I purchase one?
Thanks a lot
Zulekah -- Here's Tink's kit: http://blackswampglassworks.com/eform.htm
If you'd like to learn more about e-forming, there are some more links here: http://sgb-midatlantic.org/how-tos.html#Electroforming
Enjoy!!!
JanMD
Wow, Jan, you just made my day! Thanks for noticing!
I have an arrangement with my DD where she does some of the write ups for my beads (a way for her to "earn" some money while she is jobhunting). Those without descriptions are awaiting her golden pen :-) She has promised me tomorrow....we'll see :-)
Kim V
New pic of a Kim V. work, from another thread: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=700055&postcount=240
Love the patina! Very lush!
More from Kim V. --> http://www.kimvglass.com/catalog.php?category=20
JanMD
lampworker1
2006-09-20, 7:14pm
I have been visiting this site for several months. I am very new at beadmaking and I am thoroughly in love with it. I just want to thank all of you for your questions, comments, support and inspiration!! The generosity is fabulous.
Here is an absolutely wonderful and magical e-formed object by Jen Geldard. It absolutely HAS to be included in this thread: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=742042&postcount=1 Bravo, Jen!!! I'd scream with delight too, by jiminy.
And here is another from Jen that MUST be in this thread: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=757153&postcount=6
JanMD
VivianLampwork
2006-09-28, 5:50am
I finally got back to my electroforming kit & gave it another go.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-10/1099517/IMG_0001electroformedblackraku.jpg
KathyB
2006-11-20, 12:48pm
ok my darlings.... I need help!
I just fired up my stuff again. The first one came out crumbly. The copper on the bead was very tiny crumbles and I could rub it off.
Did I go to fast and to high? I started out at 1amp for 3 hours then down to .5 amps for another 9 hours.
I did another after that and started out a .5 amp and it came out better (smoother)
Kathy, personally I never even go as high as .5 amps. It's my opinion that even if you want a bumpier, more gnarly look that you should lay down a very slowly applied layer first. As a foundation.
If you're going for a smooth look, then try cutting the amperage back to about .3 --- See how that goes.
Geez... that's how I cook food too. Higher must be better. (my was-band said he could tell dinner was done when the smoke alarm went off)
Ok- lower it is!
Hi Tink! I received my kit, and yesterday the "mad scientist" set everything up and started to eform my first piece. Ooohhhhh, everything was working wonderfully! I went to check on it after 30 minutes, and we won't discuss that I forgot a primary step: etching the bead! :oops: :roll: #-o Okay, bead #2 is in the soup, having been etched, painted, and allowed to dry overnight. So far, so good! :-D
In the meantime, there were some questions that came to mind.
- When I pull my bead out of the soup for inspection, I turn the amps to 0, turn the rectifier off, and unclip the black lead. I don't touch anything while the rectifier is on, but it wouldn't be of harm if I did, would it?
- Concerning the distilled water, when you say to wash and rinse the beaker in the distilled water, are you saying to put a sudsy beaker into the distilled water? Initially, I washed and rinsed it in tap water, dried it, then rinsed it in the distilled water. My concern is contaminating the distilled water.
- Can the anodes and copper wire be kept in the distilled water when not in use? My thought was that it would keep the copper from becoming dirty and contaminated.
- I have a tendency to be overly cautious. After the bead has been etched and cleaned for painting, I only handle it wearing gloves. I understand the importance of doing this. However, I also don't handle the copper during and after wiping it with the green scrubby. Am I going overboard with this?
- How do you clean the paint brush? I've been "washing" it in the distilled water (just water, no soap). Is that sufficient?
- If I want to add an existing element that has already been eformed to a bead that's about to be eformed, what's going to happen to the previously eformed element? Will it lose it's copper, gain copper, or remain unchanged? My objective is for it to remain unchanged.
- I painted a bead with the eform paint, let it dry thoroughly (8 hrs), and plunked it in the soup. Part of the design included some swirls that branched out. These are raising off the surface of the bead. Do you know why?
- I just let in Tory (my adorable husky) and she wanted to ask you a question, too. So, she licked the keyboard (ewww!) to ask you this: ewwseqeawswqe2 (lol)!
Sorry for so many questions, but inquiring minds want to know ...
Thanks, Tink! The booklet is very well written, easy to follow, and very professionally presented! I appreciate you putting this all together.
Janelle Zorko
2006-12-19, 12:36pm
Renee,
I don't know if Tink has been too busy to answer your questions (or maybe she did it via PM, but I can try):
First, you don't have to etch a bead to electroform it - most of mine are not etched but it helps the paint to adhere to the surface.
> - When I pull my bead out of the soup for inspection, I turn the amps to 0, turn the rectifier off, and unclip the black lead. I don't touch anything while the rectifier is on, but it wouldn't be of harm if I did, would it?
There is so little electricity coming out of the rectifier that it's unlikely it'll cause any problems if you touched it but you are doing all the right things for safety!
> - Concerning the distilled water, when you say to wash and rinse the beaker in the distilled water, are you saying to put a sudsy beaker into the distilled water? Initially, I washed and rinsed it in tap water, dried it, then rinsed it in the distilled water. My concern is contaminating the distilled water.
I never "reuse" the distilled water. If you are going to, I'd say you're doing it the right way. I just rinse and wash my beaker in tap water and thoroughly dry it with paper towels or a cloth towel, before letting it air dry too. I guess I skip the distilled water for this part.
> - Can the anodes and copper wire be kept in the distilled water when not in use? My thought was that it would keep the copper from becoming dirty and contaminated.
They can, but I don't think it's necessary. The worst that will happen if you take your wire and anodes out of the solution and rinse them off and dry them, is that they'll oxidize and you'll just scrub them up quickly with the green scrubby before using them again. I recommend scrubbing up the anodes before you use them anyway.
> - I have a tendency to be overly cautious. After the bead has been etched and cleaned for painting, I only handle it wearing gloves. I understand the importance of doing this. However, I also don't handle the copper during and after wiping it with the green scrubby. Am I going overboard with this?
Maybe :-D . The main reason for this is so as not to get oils from your hands on the bead or anodes. If your hands are clean, this shouldn't be an issue.
> - How do you clean the paint brush? I've been "washing" it in the distilled water (just water, no soap). Is that sufficient?
Believe it or not, I never clean the paint brush. I wipe off the excess and when the paint is dry, it just flakes off the brush anyway so I just bend it around a bit and it becomes pliable and useable again.
> - If I want to add an existing element that has already been eformed to a bead that's about to be eformed, what's going to happen to the previously eformed element? Will it lose it's copper, gain copper, or remain unchanged? My objective is for it to remain unchanged.
It all depends on if it's part of the same "circuit" you created in the first electroforming. If the new element is somehow connected to the old copper, it will likely grow. If it's on a new part of the bead and isn't touching the older metal, you should be fine. You could actually try lacquering the old element but keep in mind, you have to create a circuit with the new element for electroforming to occur.
> - I painted a bead with the eform paint, let it dry thoroughly (8 hrs), and plunked it in the soup. Part of the design included some swirls that branched out. These are raising off the surface of the bead. Do you know why?
This just happens sometimes. Take the bead out and bend the newly formed copper toward the bead and put back in. Sometimes I'll do this and put more paint under the raised part and it will thicken and lay down better.
Can't help you on that last one. I was just telling my cats this morning that I wish that I could speak their language - would make things so much easier in this household!
Janelle
Hi Tink! I received my kit, and yesterday the "mad scientist" set everything up and started to eform my first piece. Ooohhhhh, everything was working wonderfully! I went to check on it after 30 minutes, and we won't discuss that I forgot a primary step: etching the bead! :oops: :roll: #-o Okay, bead #2 is in the soup, having been etched, painted, and allowed to dry overnight. So far, so good! :-D
In the meantime, there were some questions that came to mind.
- When I pull my bead out of the soup for inspection, I turn the amps to 0, turn the rectifier off, and unclip the black lead. I don't touch anything while the rectifier is on, but it wouldn't be of harm if I did, would it?
- Concerning the distilled water, when you say to wash and rinse the beaker in the distilled water, are you saying to put a sudsy beaker into the distilled water? Initially, I washed and rinsed it in tap water, dried it, then rinsed it in the distilled water. My concern is contaminating the distilled water.
- Can the anodes and copper wire be kept in the distilled water when not in use? My thought was that it would keep the copper from becoming dirty and contaminated.
- I have a tendency to be overly cautious. After the bead has been etched and cleaned for painting, I only handle it wearing gloves. I understand the importance of doing this. However, I also don't handle the copper during and after wiping it with the green scrubby. Am I going overboard with this?
- How do you clean the paint brush? I've been "washing" it in the distilled water (just water, no soap). Is that sufficient?
- If I want to add an existing element that has already been eformed to a bead that's about to be eformed, what's going to happen to the previously eformed element? Will it lose it's copper, gain copper, or remain unchanged? My objective is for it to remain unchanged.
- I painted a bead with the eform paint, let it dry thoroughly (8 hrs), and plunked it in the soup. Part of the design included some swirls that branched out. These are raising off the surface of the bead. Do you know why?
- I just let in Tory (my adorable husky) and she wanted to ask you a question, too. So, she licked the keyboard (ewww!) to ask you this: ewwseqeawswqe2 (lol)!
Sorry for so many questions, but inquiring minds want to know ...
Thanks, Tink! The booklet is very well written, easy to follow, and very professionally presented! I appreciate you putting this all together.
Sorry guys. I answered these questions via email on the 12th. Meant to copy it over here, too, but I forgot. Thanks for the reminder, Janelle.
- When I pull my bead out of the soup for inspection, I turn the amps to 0, turn the rectifier off, and unclip the black lead. I don't touch anything while the rectifier is on, but it wouldn't be of harm if I did, would it?
It’s just good, safe shop practice. Electroforming is very safe, electrically. But I do keep touching and bumping to a minimum primarily to keep from messing up my contacts/circuit with oil from the skin and other ickies.
- Concerning the distilled water, when you say to wash and rinse the beaker in the distilled water, are you saying to put a sudsy beaker into the distilled water? Initially, I washed and rinsed it in tap water, dried it, then rinsed it in the distilled water. My concern is contaminating the distilled water.
I just wash in distilled water. I don’t use soap. It’s best to not use tap water for any part of the process as it can leave deposits that you can’t see.
- Can the anodes and copper wire be kept in the distilled water when not in use? My thought was that it would keep the copper from becoming dirty and contaminated.
Hmmm… I don’t know. I never thought about it. I take mine out, wash them in distilled water, dry them and keep them in a Ziplok bag. You can try it: Let me know!
- I have a tendency to be overly cautious. After the bead has been etched and cleaned for painting, I only handle it wearing gloves. I understand the importance of doing this. However, I also don't handle the copper during and after wiping it with the green scrubby. Am I going overboard with this?
You’re asking the wrong person about overboard. ROFL! I do the same thing. I know that any kind of oils or residue can impact the process, so I figure I’ll just be cautious.
- How do you clean the paint brush? I've been "washing" it in the distilled water (just water, no soap). Is that sufficient?
Yep. I just wash mine in distilled water. Gotta love water based conductive paint, eh?
- If I want to add an existing element that has already been eformed to a bead that's about to be eformed, what's going to happen to the previously eformed element? Will it lose it's copper, gain copper, or remain unchanged? My objective is for it to remain unchanged.
If the NEW element connects with the EXISTING element, then the existing element will GAIN copper. If the two elements don’t make contact, then there will be no change in the existing element. If they do connect, design-wise, and you wish to keep the existing element from gaining additional copper, use sculpting wax or some other material to mask off the existing element (ie – cover it up so no additional copper can be laid down on it)
- I painted a bead with the eform paint, let it dry thoroughly (8 hrs), and plunked it in the soup. Part of the design included some swirls that branched out. These are raising off the surface of the bead. Do you know why?
When you electroform a bead, you’re essentially creating a metal “cage” about the bead. If you have a design element that goes off all by itself, it can have a tendency to lift up. You can minimize this by laying down the copper ever more slowly, and by sandblasting the bead before electroforming, rather than just etching. That will give the surface more “tooth”.
Janelle, I just checked back on this thread and saw you had responded to my post. Thank you so very much! As Tink indicated, she responded to me via email, so I haven't been checking this thread as often.
Thanks, again, Janelle! BTW, Tink answered Tory's question!! Speaking of which, Tink, you didn't include your response to Tory's question!!
Best wishes for a very safe and happy holiday to all.
sandra j ziolkowski
2007-02-02, 8:40am
So far, so fun!! Where is everyone? I'm working with different patinas and sealer. I bought some from rio grande. I bought the Midas brown and the green patina. The green in the pictures is very pretty but it flakes off. I take it from the soup and brush it and then put it in the patina for a few minutes and then dry it in a warm kiln. Most but not all the flakyness comes after I seal it with sealer. The sealer is not sealing as a matter of fact the more sealer I use the flakier the round flat pendant became.(the real green one. The two pendants I didnt use the green on turned out fine as a matter of fact i will tumble them both alittle more. The others I'm afraid if I tumble will loose all patina down to the brown.
571035710257100570995709857104
Sandi, I just wanted to say how impressed I am! You have been one BUSY grrl! I've not used commercial patinas much, so don't feel I have any valuable input in that regard. I'm wondering about using Renaissance Wax or Liquid Luster to seal the work. Anyone have any thoughts on that? I've used them both, but I'd like to hear from others.
sandra j ziolkowski
2007-02-02, 9:08am
I'm not sure I cleaned the vessels before sealing it. But... the reason I did it that way was because I was afraid if I cleaned it good enough to be sealed it would loose all that great green patina. If the surface is flaking to begin with I can see how that would cause more flaking later. Just like painting the surface of a house that is pealing. I went ahead and put the vessel that was'nt pealing that much in the tumbler with some other things to see how it would fare. Let me know what you think.
My current preference for sealing is Renaissance Wax, Sandi. And I never clean the electroformed portion of the work after applying the patina. I either leave it as-is, or I seal it with the wax. I've not had any problems with flaking.
Are you tumbling after you apply the patina???
sandra j ziolkowski
2007-02-02, 12:50pm
Yes I did go ahead and tumble the two brown pieces and they turned out good because they were very rough and it just polished the tops and left brown or black in the crevises. However I also tumbled one of the vessels and something else and it almost completely removed the patina. But thats ok because i'm starting over with them now. I suppose the Rennisance wax is a Rio product? The real blue, greeen pieces, if worn around the neck would leave stains of blue, green on your clothes . So ..... I need to figure this out.
Renaissance Wax can be found oodles of places. Here's a link to an eBay seller: I have no connection with the seller, nor have I ever purchased anything from them --- http://snipurl.com/196aa
Microcrystaline waxes like this are great sealers, and protect the patina really well.
I think blue and green patinas are generally pretty fragile. There's a short piece in Lapidary Journal (I think it's in the current issue) by Tim McCreight about getting a blue/green patina on silver. Bottom line is he says you can't get that color on silver -- what you have to do is put a thin copper plating on the silver (which you do by putting the silver in contaminated pickle), and then patina the copper. The relevant point is that he says it's fragile, so he recommends doing it only on recessed areas that aren't going to be rubbed when the item is worn.
sandra j ziolkowski
2007-02-02, 3:00pm
Here are some that have not been waxed. I'm giving up on the sealer that I bought. Also I fumed the blue green ones. That seems to work better than soaking them. The copper brown turned out nice after being tumbled alittle longer. The Blue with Blue is a bit much,I may put some brown in their.
Thanks for the info on Tim McCreight. I am taking a class with him next month
Can't wait to pick his brain.:poke: That was my next line of questioning anyway. I want to make my chains match my new pendants. Chains are made of Sterling silver.
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5713257131
rainygrrl
2007-02-02, 7:30pm
Sandi, those are great. And the blue with blue is not too much for some of us...
Emily, you've got a wealth of information. Thank you for sharing here and elsewhere.
- Can the anodes and copper wire be kept in the distilled water when not in use? My thought was that it would keep the copper from becoming dirty and contaminated.
Hmmm… I don’t know. I never thought about it. I take mine out, wash them in distilled water, dry them and keep them in a Ziplok bag. You can try it: Let me know!
There is some mention in all the stuff I've read on this subject that, if not cared for properly, the copper anodes develop a corroded oxidized "skin" that slows down the frate of deposition. You can feel and see this "skin" -- the anodes get a rough matte finish and the coppery shine disappears. I just give mine a real good rub with coarse, then finer sandpaper (with Ajax) at intervals (then rinsed in distilled water!!), to bring back the shine and expose as much clean copper to the solution as possible.
Everyone's e-formed work is --as usual here-- outstandingly great. I love looking at it all!
Thank you, everyone!
Jan
Byrdbeads
2007-03-03, 8:36am
OMG IM ELECTROFORMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im so excited! LOL Got off work this morning and came home and put my bead in with the paint dried on overnight and it is working and so far is bright bright new penny color. I cant wait till it is done. Have 2 more to do when I get this one done.
Question, do I reuse the wire that the piece is suspeded from r do I use a new suspension wire for each new piece?
THANKS TINK!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robyn
Yay! I'm glad the kit meets with your approval :-)
You can reuse the wires. Just scrub them with your green scrubbie.
Byrdbeads
2007-03-03, 1:39pm
Oh Ye it most definately meets my approval LOL I almost killed the Fedex guy tho and scared him enough that he had another guy deliver it LOL I skeered him LOLLOL Well he did lie to me after I sat up all day waiting for him and he never even attempted delivery when he says he did LOL Now if I could just stop looking at it long enough to start getting knobby LOL I cranked up the amps to go a bit faster. Right now it has a really nice smooth covering and probably could never get that smooth of a coverage when I want it LOL. I told my sister about the dragonfly and now she is on the lookout for bugs LOL I think a locust shell would be really cool.
Another question .......... crap I forgot it...................... I'll be back
Louise
2007-03-05, 11:31am
Ok I look at the show and tell everyday and kept seeing the electoformed beads and thought i was just behind the times (being a newbie) and didn't want to ask what it was. Today I saw the Beast meets Chains (I think) and could no longer resist finding out what this stunning technique was. And just like magic, the first thread in tips and techniques was just what I needed, I read the whole thing......I am soooooo hooked, I am now saving my money for a kit. I can already picture myself doing this.
Thank you guys for this wonderful and informative thread, and thanks Tink for doing all this. I am awed and inspired every day by the wonderful group of people in this community.
Byrdbeads
2007-03-05, 1:09pm
Well this is really a cool thing. Just finished my second leaf but have a question. I cant get the nubby look, is bright shiny penny no matter how high I set it adn this mornig sometime one of the brass plates broke in half. I guess I was set too high since I only did ips or hints2 pieces. Both leaves have a really big amount of copper and are pretty weitghty (will post a pix tonigh when i get home) Do you set it lower for hte nubby look or maybe my paint is too thick and if thinned down Ill get the nubby look. Any tips or hints on what im doing "wrong"?
Robyn
Byrdbeads
2007-03-06, 12:16am
OK here is my first leaf.
Byrdbeads
2007-03-06, 12:21am
Well it might actually help if i attach the picture....................
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Robyn
CO_Phantom
2007-03-06, 5:21pm
Yay!!
I just got mine Saturday!! Just need to get the solutions and some chemicals for patinas and I'mready to roll!!
-amy
FlamingFrog
2007-03-06, 5:37pm
OMG Robyn!
That leaf is beautiful!!!!!!! I just bought my kit and can't wait to get it. Seeing that beautiful leaf just makes the wait even harder!!!!!!!! Great job!!!!
Lonni
Byrdbeads
2007-03-08, 8:38am
Thank You.....................but how do I get that bumpy look to it? Thin down the paint so it is bumpy or not as smoothe or thick or what? I tis amazing how thick it is and how much weight it has added to it. Im trying to decide what kind of patina to try on it. Possibly the green one?
Robyn
I wish I could get results that smooth when I wanted them. You can add stuff to get bumps, but there's nothing to add to get smooth if you're getting texture even with your current turned down low.
You can glue things onto your bead to give it texture. Those itty-bitty "Beedz" (little glass balls without holes) that craft stores sell (try the scrapbooking department) work, and you can place them individually or scatter them all over. I've used sandpaper. I'm thinking about trying kitty litter (the fine grained scoopable kind, although you could use the other ones if you want big bumps.) Just paint over it carefully with the conductive paint.
Byrdbeads
2007-03-09, 10:27am
LOL Well both my leaves I did are really smooth and im thinking it is because the paint was really thick and smooth. Have another Im goingt o do this weekend and will try some things added to give a bumpier look. I woudl be careful about the fine kitty litter and make sure it dosnt have any of things that absorbe fluid LOL You will ahve the hunch back of beads LOL
Robyn
GlassFirenze
2007-03-19, 11:17am
I'm wondering what ever became of the Titanium Pens??? Did anyone who used them have success and if so does anyone know where to buy them now?
Thanks!
Deborah
Ed_Slawson
2007-03-22, 4:00pm
ABR Imagery carries them, we just bought one to try. They have an online catalog at http://www.abrimagery.com I think it cost $20.00
-Ed-
GlassFirenze
2007-03-22, 4:05pm
Thanks Ed! :-)
Deborah
Three Muses Glass
2007-03-28, 5:06pm
I have another question on the silver plating after doing the copper electroforming. I know the solution has to be for silver, and the anodes have to be silver but do the other wires all have to be silver as well? For example, can the same thick copper be OK to hook the rectifier leads up to but the wire that goes into the solution to touch the piece be or have to be silver?
vwhite3343
2007-04-06, 2:19pm
I'm having problems with my electroforming now. I did several successful pieces a few days ago, but now everything I do comes out with copper granules that rub right off instead of forming a cohesive skin of copper. It's frustrating. I have cleaned everything, filtered the solution, scrubbed all the anodes and wires, played with current- still just getting loose granules that fall off, leaving just the original paint. Any ideas, anyone????
SadiesJewels
2007-04-24, 8:59am
I have a question about how to attach the wire to the bead. I made my first electroformed big hole bead last night after a few days of doing nothing with one of them (had it connected up all wrong).
So the successful one I had the wire looping through the bead but you can see where the wire was touching the outside of the bead - so how does one prevent this? I'll post a picture later if it helps.
Sadie
boobiebeads
2007-04-30, 11:58am
THANK YOU ANNA...I have been going through anodes like crazy and can't find copper flashing anywhere...I even posted a "bathroom" thread about it... *running to truck to head down to hardware store*!!!
boobiebeads
2007-04-30, 12:02pm
...here are a few shots of what I have been doing (great thread)
MaryBeth
2007-04-30, 12:46pm
I'm getting ready to fire up my electroforming gear again. I want to try adding elements to my beads with jeweler's wax. Does anyone have a good source for this?
Michelle - those beads are great!
I am debating on placing an order with Rio Grande for jeweler's wax. I am also contemplating purchasing some sheet wax. I was hoping to use this on some of my flat pot melts. Making a bezel by electroforming a sheet of flat wax to the back of the project, and then a wire bezel around the sides to hold the cab in. Any ideas if this will work or has anyone tried it yet? I haven't used my electroforming kit yet, so I am not sure of how to put the wax together. I thought it would be easier and less expensive than doing the project in sterling. Any ideas? Thanks.
rainygrrl
2007-05-12, 8:51am
Could you simply apply paint directly to the cab and skip the wax altogether?
Gee...never thought of that. That's a good idea. I guess I didn't expect the paint to stick to the glass as good as it does. I've had my kit for a looooong time now, and was too afraid to take it out and get started. But once I got the paint out, I see how well it really does cover stuff.
I just got my set up and running this morning. I've been afraid to try it, and I think the kit was sitting here unopened for about a year. I took a deep breath, read the directions thru a few times and just got to it taking it step by step. I had it set up and going in no time. It was so nice to have the kit with everything in it, and everything spelled out so nicely. I'm not afraid anymore! I wish I hadn't of lost my digital camera, so I could share the outcome. Oh...how long are we supposed to leave the bead in the solution?
prairieson
2007-06-12, 4:41pm
Oh...how long are we supposed to leave the bead in the solution?
Hi Tanja!
Sorry for the delay in responding, we've been running around like madmen since early May.
Anyway, leave the work in the solution and powered up until you get the effect you desire. Depending on current level, area coated with conductive paint, and type of coating desired the time can vary wildly... from an hour or so to overnight or longer.
Hope it's not too much a doofus answer, I think I may still be jet lagged, heheh.
cgbeads
2007-06-17, 10:59am
I'll finally chime in on the sealing. I use some leftover Stained Glass Finishing Compound from my stained glass days, and then a coat of Turtle Wax for cars, but the compound alone is probably sufficient. And I too have has a bit of success with non-etched beads.
This is one of my first beads, I had it set too high and the edges lifted, but how I get the rainbow streaks on a few beads has puzzled me.
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jkittels
2007-06-27, 6:29pm
Here are a couple that I've been playing with....
Made some pea pods that have been really fun to play with...and have been great sellers...
Also made some bird eggs in nests that have caught alot of peoples eyes...Most people think that the nest is a purchased piece and that they are put together in a pendant...
I'm having a blast with this process. I think it adds so much to what we can do...
Great info here too...
Julie K.
This first one is a boro x electroforming adventure..both of which I'm new to...76709
and this one is a moretti pot melt with e-forming76708
I tried my kit for the first time and my bead came out looking like an echidna! All spikey! What would be an average length of time that you leave a bead in the Eformer?
Sorry lots of questions!
What is a good medium for carving that I can add to a bead and Eform over?
Can I use nail polish on a bead as a base for conductive paint and will it stay?
I tried "knead-it' a proprietary epoxy dough? but its hard to get it to stay on the bead while it's soft and it hardens in 5-10 minutes and then is too hard. something more moldable would be better. Though you can drill it afterwards and carve it with a dremel, but thats a bit too much for me as yet.
More questions with more experience next time!
thanks
Kym
Sue in Maine
2007-07-24, 4:34am
Hi Kym,
I don't know the answer to your questions but wanted to tell you I just did an electrforming class with Tink on Sunday (yes, 2 days ago!) and I'm a believer! I'm ordering one.....
How's life down under???
Sue in Maine
Marie C
2007-08-29, 4:22pm
Hi Tink!
In the class at Hale Fire Glass you demonstrated using a titanium pen on your vessel or bead that you electroformed. I'm having trouble finding one. Any suggestions. I've tried Googling titanium pens but don't think those that come up are the right ones.
Also, if it's not already on this thread, would you mind explaining the use of this pen so others willl know what we're talking about?
Thanks!
Warmly, Marie C O:)
The Ti-Pen can be found at Aspen Glass:
http://www.aspenglass.com/
The titanium path laid down by the pen is conductive, and can be electroformed.
Marie C
2007-08-29, 10:20pm
Thanks, Tink! You're the best!
Warmly, Marie
Marie C
2007-08-30, 5:43am
OK, another question- I hope it hasn't already been addressed here, I just don't have time to read all 8 pages. If so, please tell me it's here and I'll find it.
I'm particularly interested in electroforming real leaves. I know anything organic has to be sealed to keep it from contaminating your solution.
Here's my question: Is there a way you can prep the leaf before sealing it, something to do to keep it from drying out too much, curling around the edges, etc. Can I/should I lay it out on paper towels and put books on top?
Thanks! Warmly, Marie C
Marie C
2007-08-30, 5:44am
Oh, and can I do green leaves?
Thanks! Marie C
Lea Zinke
2007-08-31, 3:44pm
Just started e-forming and all of mine are turning out bumpy/sharp, etc. Then when I try to grind off the offending sharp "crystals", it still doesn't smooth out nearly enough.
Is it because the conductive paint is all thick & lumpy -- if I thin it out, will the resulting e-forming look like the smooooooooth coatings you guys are getting???
Also, I'm leaving them in overnight, is that toooo long?
Wanting to get it right! Thanks for any tips!
Lea
VivianLampwork
2007-09-01, 3:39pm
Lea, if the paint you apply is rough then your electroforming will be rough. You can thin out the pain by adding distilled water. If you get a smooth layer of paint you'll have smooth electroforming. Also, the rate that you electroform has a lot to do with whether you get a smooth coating or a bumpy coating & leaving it all night is too long. If you got your electroforming kit from Tink, the instructions tell about that. On my rectifier the knob on the bottom is zero & the current knob on the top is .15 for a smooth electroform.
prairieson
2007-09-04, 12:56pm
Marie - Yep, you can do green leaves, and I would imagine you could also press them before sealing. Drying out shouldn't be an issue, you'll be sealing them anyway.
Vivian - Spot-on correct!
Marie...I've done one leaf so far...it was such a perfect cute little leaf I had to try it and it worked out great. I have two more I'm getting ready, one may go in tonight....
Here's the first little one I did
84578
I didn't do any special preparations for this one. Though the two I'm working on now I did press for a little bit to get them flat.
Janelle Zorko
2007-09-29, 8:23pm
Hi Lea!
I try to stay quiet in this thread because it's "Tink's Official Thread" (and I forget to read it) but please don't thin your paint with water. If it's the Dalmar paint you got from me, you would thin it with acetone that you can get at Home Depot or another home store. Make sure you put the black tape back on the jar when not in use so that it won't evaporate down.
Also, when you have your bead in the solution, make sure you are checking on it frequently. I think that the stirring up of the solution a bit every couple of hours when you check on your bead really helps to get rid of those spiky "dendrites". Of course, if I leave it in overnight, I'm not getting up every couple of hours, but the more the stir up the solution, the better.
Also, make sure if you want a really smooth deposition that you start low - like at .15. I'll go up to .30 if I want a fast, but sturdy bumpy deposition but you can lower the amperage to get a smoother deposit of copper.
Hope that helps! If you bought a kit from me, please don't ever hesitate to contact me. I'll be happy to help!
Janelle
Just started e-forming and all of mine are turning out bumpy/sharp, etc. Then when I try to grind off the offending sharp "cryst
als", it still doesn't smooth out nearly enough.
Is it because the conductive paint is all thick & lumpy -- if I thin it out, will the resulting e-forming look like the smooooooooth coatings you guys are getting???
Also, I'm leaving them in overnight, is that toooo long?
Wanting to get it right! Thanks for any tips!
Lea
sislonski
2007-10-16, 9:05am
Is electroplating the same as electroforming?
Electroplating, or just 'plating', is the laying down of a thin layer of metal over another metal. Electroforming is the laying down of a thick layer of metal, typically on a non-metallic surface, that is thick and substantial enough to hold its form if removed from the base article. Hence, electroFORMing.
There is, indeed, a difference in the solution used for the two processes. I don't know what the chemical difference is, but the functional difference is that the electroforming solution is formulated to do its job at a slower deposition rate, at a lower amperage.
PixieFireBeads
2007-10-19, 2:50pm
Easy question...
What should I use to clean my brushes?
Depends. If you're using water-based paint, such as the stuff in the kit I sell, then you should technically use distilled water. If you're using conductive paint from another source, then you should use whatever they (the manufacturer of the paint or the putter-togetherer of the kit) recommends.
PixieFireBeads
2007-10-20, 1:23pm
Thank you!
madnesssr
2007-10-22, 6:07pm
I posted these over in the gallary and thought I would post them here too. Trying to work on the patina.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h83/madnesssr/Beads/100_4170.jpg
My electroforming seems to be a hit and miss activity.
1 How important is the size of the anode to the electroformed area? I've read 2:1 in area, but is this critical?
I have also been making my own conductive paint. My etched bottle worked and I put a patina on it. As you can see the next was a disaster. All I managed to cover was the copper holding wire and I actually put nail polish on this to try and cover it. Both were done using a silver powder. Looks like I should buy a commercial conductive paint.
2 How close can the bead be to the anode bars?
Looking forward to some answers.
Thanks, Bev.B
Ed_Slawson
2007-11-15, 6:09pm
Here is an electro-formed, patinated one from my "Lathe" series of beads.
94216
-Ed-
EchoTantuli
2007-11-21, 5:29am
I was wondering what kind of limits there are on things you can glue to the piece to add sculpture and depth (the no-no list, if you will). Is the solution corrosive at all? How hot does the piece get during the process? Would plastic work? I know some stones work...has anyone tried pearls? How about Fimo Clay? I saw somewhere you can form over wax...What kind? I'm getting a set-up, so I'm sure I'll have many questions to come, but I can hardly wait!!! :grin:
- Echo :wink:
While you can certainly experiment with making your own conductive paint, for reliable, reproducible results, I highly recommend using something tried and true. Some folks like solvent-based paints, others (like myself) prefer the water-based paint from Safer Solutions.
I've had best success with placing my cathode (the work to be electroformed) centered between two or more anodes. How close can it be? As close as you wish, though you don't want the cathode and anode to touch, of course. Remember the drawings of magnetic field lines in your gradeschool science book? If you could actually see what was going on in electroforming, you'd see a similar pattern. It can be helpful to keep that in mind.
If you're coating the wire with deposits instead of your work, you're likely not getting a good connection between your work and the copper wire that's connected to it. This can be due to placement or to a faulty or inadequate conductive design.
Nice work, Ed :-)
Echo, the piece doesn't get hot at all during the process. Yes, you can use plastic, Fimo, wax... There are some limitations, but they are easily solved in most cases through proper preparation. If you want to use something organic (twig, feather, etc.) then you need to seal it first. I use spray polyurethane from the hardware store. Organic things will 'gas out' and contaminate your solution unless you seal them. I've never tried pearls, but sounds cool :-)
Thanks Tink
Just getting materials here in Australia is a problem at times. My next step was to get some paint from Safer Solutions.
I decided to start with a new mix. Even getting the battery acid was a problem. I was told - "Sorry the batteries come filled." "Can't sell it with the new regulations, and anyway you would have to buy a 5 litre drum." 5 shops later I got lucky!
I chatted with Bernie Stonor our 'Glass Guru' from South Australia and my problems seem to be sorted. The pics show my first new solution test - still in progress. This was after a 12 hour run set at 0.4V and 0.16amps. I let this sit overnight and am continuing at the moment with 0.5 v and 0.3 to see if some big edge lumps develop.
My rectifier did not want to run with such a low current until I used much smaller anodes. Their size seem to be much more critical than I at first thought.
This bottle is ivory and not etched. I used super thinned acetone based nail polish mixed with silver powder.
My fingers are crossed. Thanks again, Bev.B
Bev, you are a total wildwoman :-) I love it!!! That's looking pretty darn good, don't you think? Keep us posted!
Well I'm happy, here it is. I probably didn't leave it long enough, but it seemed to be just thickening all over rather than building up on the edges. I painted it with Ron Young - Sculpt Nouveau, Traditional Mint Green Patina and left it overnight. I then buffed most off and waxed the bottle.
I was going to make something for the top, but I keep seeing this poor little headless sea horse so I'll leave well alone.
Bev.B
I've been playing with this one for the last couple of days. This was a wax form that I electroplated. The 2nd pic is its first polish. I haven't decided what I will do next, probably try liver of sulphur.
The first day I ran at 0.15 amps to try to get a really smooth, or at least even coat. Last night I boosted it to 3.5 amps.
The trickiest part was deciding just how thick I should get the body. I used calipers to measure the support wire thickness as I progressed and decided that 0.5 mm would be when I would stop.
Bev.B
Ed_Slawson
2007-12-06, 9:25pm
This is one of a current series of boro spirals that I have electroformed and patinated. The electroforming has a very different look that is the result of using our new Titanium Scribe ™ to lay down electro-conductive lines.
96404
-Ed-
Cabaribeads
2007-12-06, 10:32pm
Gorgeous!
MaryBeth
2007-12-07, 8:43pm
This is one of a current series of boro spirals that I have electroformed and patinated. The electroforming has a very different look that is the result of using our new Titanium Scribe ™ to lay down electro-conductive lines.
96404
-Ed-
I love that, Ed! I sent you an email8)
beadworkstudio
2007-12-23, 10:15am
I got my Tink kit two days ago and I love it! I was impressed with the packing, too. It was so neat and organized in the box, and I got the added bonus of neatly folded bubble wrap that I can reuse. (Yes, I'm an organization freak.)
One question: My first bead has striped ridges and I'm not sure how I got those. I'd like to be able to repeat them. The only thing I can think of is that I applied the paint in the same direction as the stripes. However, some of the glass dots I put on there have stripes on them and I dabbed the paint on them.
Here it is. I've shown this in several places today so I hope nobody is sick of seeing it:
http://www.beadworkstudio.com/Beadwork/Beads%202007%20013.jpg
prairieson
2007-12-23, 1:38pm
I got my Tink kit two days ago and I love it! I was impressed with the packing, too. It was so neat and organized in the box, and I got the added bonus of neatly folded bubble wrap that I can reuse. (Yes, I'm an organization freak.)
One question: My first bead has striped ridges and I'm not sure how I got those. I'd like to be able to repeat them. The only thing I can think of is that I applied the paint in the same direction as the stripes. However, some of the glass dots I put on there have stripes on them and I dabbed the paint on them.
Why thank you, I pride myself in ship-proofing the stuff I send out, heheh.
I suspect that the major cause of the striation in the deposition is the presence of the electromagnetic flux lines created when the power is applied to the circuit, like the old Mr Wizard style demos with the magnet and the iron filings on a sheet of paper. It would be a function of the shape of the painted part of the piece, the amount of current applied, how close the anode and cathode are to one another, size of the anode and cathode, where the wire contacts the piece, and probably some other variables as well.
That being said, I too really like the result you got. Unfortunately my only advice is to take lots of notes every time you work.
MaryBeth
2007-12-23, 1:47pm
I got my Tink kit two days ago and I love it! I was impressed with the packing, too. It was so neat and organized in the box, and I got the added bonus of neatly folded bubble wrap that I can reuse. (Yes, I'm an organization freak.)
One question: My first bead has striped ridges and I'm not sure how I got those. I'd like to be able to repeat them. The only thing I can think of is that I applied the paint in the same direction as the stripes. However, some of the glass dots I put on there have stripes on them and I dabbed the paint on them.
Here it is. I've shown this in several places today so I hope nobody is sick of seeing it:
http://www.beadworkstudio.com/Beadwork/Beads%202007%20013.jpg
I like that piece, Sheila! Did you use LOS for the patina?
I have two vessels that I have just about completed the electroforming on and I am trying to decide on the patina. I have the commercial green and blue from Rio Grande but I think I'm leaning more towards the color that you have on your piece.
I love those striations, too, by the way!
beadworkstudio
2007-12-23, 2:12pm
Yep, Mary Beth, it's plain 'ol LOS. I like the look and I was too impatient to use ammonia. I didn't even mix my liquid LOS with water; I just used a Q-tip, put some on (it turned black as night), then rinsed and scrubbed with a 3M pad.
My second bead just came out of the bath, and it has the striations, too (good word, John!). I wondered if the current caused it, but wasn't sure. The second bead has a rounded top with raised dots, sorta like an acorn look. I started the first one at .15, held there for about 4 hours, then uppped it to .5 for another 3-4 hours to get more nubbiness. I started the second at .25 for about 6 hours, then upped it to .5 for two hours. The deposition is really heavy on the second, yet it still has stripes. Fun, fun stuff!
IT'S SO COOL!!!!!
I was gonna ask if the instructions were ok, but apparently they were :-)
So doesn't electroforming just totally open up your mind and flood you with ideas??? Heck, just getting these kits ready to ship got me all excited all over again, and I'm electroforming two pieces later today. LOL!
Beautiful work, Sheila!
I broke open the kit again and got a few things going. The first 3 I did have had the e-forming peeling off. I don't know what I could be doing wrong, I etched the beads. I'm wondering if I should use a different etching solution. Maybe the cream works better?
This bead also had a top on it, and a trail that went up the sides. I used those little sticky beads and let them dry. It all fell off. I just glued this bottom portion back on.
99276
Does sand blasting work a lot better than etching cream?
How long are you electroforming and what setting are you at? What solution are you using?
It almost sounds to me like you're not building up the copper thick enough (ie not electroforming long enough). Looking at the photo above, I can't see what design element is keeping the copper application from sliding off. It looks almost as though it would slip on and off the bead like one of those beer can sleeves.
I've been doing a LOT of work lately without any etching or sandblasting at all. Through careful design, you can create a copper skin that won't budge once you're done.
Wow! Thanks for the quick feed-back, Tink. I'm using a solution from Rio Grande. I think the bottle is gone now. Also bought more waterbased paint from Safer Solutions.
The bead did have a part connecting the bottom to the top kind of a trail about 1/8" wide going up the side with the same material I used for the bottom. It was all connected. But all fell off last night after I took the bead out of the solution. I only glued the bottom part back on.
I've been leaving the pieces in about 2-3 hours or so. At about .5 amps.
I've got a piece in now that I've decided to slow it down a bit, it's at about
.21 amps. I'll see how that one goes. I'll leave it in longer, too.
How thick should the copper get?
My pleasure, Tanja! I try to stay on top of things, though I sometimes fail miserably. LOL!
You're already doing what I would recommend: Slow down the deposition and extend the time.
As for how thick the copper should get, look to the definition of what electroforming is: It's an application of metal onto a non-metal substrate, deposited to a thickness that allows it to maintain its form if and when the substrate is removed.
In other words, you want it to be thick enough that if the bead itself were to magically disappear, your electroformed design would be substantial enough to hold its form and be self-supporting.
Not electroforming to a thick enough deposition is probably the number one error I see people make with this process. It's SO pretty, and it's SO HARD to wait, but it's really worth it.
Keep in mind that with a very low deposition rate (below .2 amps, for example) you'll get a much tighter matrix, and that will make the copper deposit more dense and stronger (in simplistic terms). That means you would be able to have a THINNER deposit and still have it be viable.
Everything is a tradeoff, and it all balances out. Keep us posted!
I think the slower is working. I took it out last night and it did look more solid, or dense sort of an application. I'll try a few more that way. Looks good! Can't post pics though, gotta run....work today!
MaryBeth
2008-01-05, 3:29pm
I think the slower is working. I took it out last night and it did look more solid, or dense sort of an application. I'll try a few more that way. Looks good! Can't post pics though, gotta run....work today!
Hi Tanja - I have a piece I'm working on with the microbeads. I glued my microbeads on with E6000 jewelry glue and that stuff really holds. I'm not sure I would trust the microbeads that are already coated in glue unless my design was caged. I really like the look of the microbeads though!
(Mary Beth who has nothing to show yet bacause she keeps sticking things back into the electroforming solution just to see how it looks!)
Okay!! I have success. At least I'm happy with them. I'm not good with colors. any suggestions on patination for these two:
99746
99745
mnoelker
2008-01-08, 8:02pm
I'm really happy with this one. It has that dug up on the bottom of the ocean feel I was going for. However, I'm not sure it's wearable because I'm afraid the EF growth will catch on clothes. The nubby (yes, it's a word!) parts are kind of scratchy and catch on things. I love the look though. Any advice?
Thanks! Oh, and I used the salt solution/ammonia patina for this. Great tip!
99976
MaryBeth
2008-01-09, 7:54pm
I like that piece, Mary! And that patina is just perfect for it.
Tanja - I would suggest the same patina Mary used for the vessel. I think that a liver of sulphur patina would look nice on the bottom bead.
I finally decided one of my pieces is done and now I need to decide on a patina also!
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