Small flame damages torch??

[SuzFromOz]

Hi guys,
I just got a pirahna set up this week, upgrading from a HH. I was talking with a friend about stringer control, and I said I expected it to be harder, but that I had just turned the flame down to a thin flame and it was ok. Anyway, she said that she had heard that shortens the torch life. Does anyone know if that is so, and if so, why?

Thanks


ooh, one more question. I ordered some didyium glasses with the torch, from Mike and sometimes the glass is producing a white flare, which is so bright it is almost painful - should my glasses be dark enough to block that? It is only when a small bit of glass gets hot, like a small dot or lump of frit, but......

thanks in advance for any answers....

[JavaGirlBT]

That bright white light means you are boiling your glass. If you look at it after it makes that light, you'll probably see bubbles on the end of the rod. Pick off the end at that point and start with a clean end. My AUR-92s don't block that light, btw. It's only momentary, so I just try to avoid boiling the glass.

Oh, and I should say that I'm assuming you're using soft glass and not boro.

And I've heard that thing about turning down your torch, but I have no idea if it's true or not.

[Jude Rose]

Hi Suz-

I have witnesses to back me up that I blast ridiculous amounts of pressure through my torch. My torch has been used extensively for 7 years, so I personally say it's fine. Now, I have a Minor and they are more, shall we say, chunky hunky kinds of torches. I know the Pirahna is made with a little more finesse and makes it's thin flame at probably less force than mine does. Regardless, I'm voting that it makes no difference. Maybe, and that's a BIG maybe, if you turned a tank up to 20lbs, you may create too much force, but honestly, I think people are a bit more careful than they need to be with the tempered steel that our torches are.

On to your glasses question. I don't have good news about that. I have a pair of didys and now know they were a total waste of money. Many people in the glass world now acknowledge didys don't do enough to protect the eyes and one ought to have more like AUR92's or thereabouts. When I started working on the torch for more hours I got searing eye and headaches until I finally switched. Personally, I think it's outrageous that folks still sell them and I am willing to be flamed for saying so.

My AUR92's (from auralens.com) cost only $74.00 and I would have paid double if that;s what it took to keep my eyes safe.

[Jude Rose]

I just read Ellen's response. I do have to admit, when I'm blasting the hell out of my raku pieces, I sometimes squint because it's so bright even with my AUR92's. But that is full-blast oxy and very high propane. For regular use throughout an eight hour workday, they do just great.

[JCHerrellGlass]

But what do you mean by a thick flame? A puffy neutral or a big fat ripping flame with tons of O2? I'm not really following that. You shouldn't be running a super long candle or anything for extended periods - on any torch really, just cuz of carbon build up and stuff. As for stringer control, I find that a pinpoint does the job. I heat on the beads right in front of where I'm going to lay the stinger. A thick flame, as I'm thinking of it, would make stringer control really hard for me.

[xiola blue]

Suz, I do recall reading that a small flame is not good for the torch, but I don't remember why. That doesn't mean not to work with the needlepoint flame for stringers. It was suggested that the flame should be good sized and properly balanced. I think it has something to do with corrosion...like my mind, which can't remember important details like these! This information came with my mini cc. You can't melt glass very well with a small flame anyway. It takes forever. Maybe someone will better recall what I am talking about. xiola

[alexm]

Yes, I've read that too. I turn my flame way down all the time to do stringer work, and in 3 years it hasn't made any difference that I can tell, and I am a full time lampworker. The way I look at it is this: I only use a small flame a small percentage of the time. The torch is a tool that I need to make my living. Tools wear out. I don't expect my torch to last a lifetime. If it wears out I'll just get another one. I don't worrry about it. 3 years is a long time to use a torch and I don't seem to have caused any damage yet, so it'll probably last a lot longer before it keels.

[SuzFromOz]

Thanks folks...its a little hard to be cleare about the flame, because I am stil trying to work out what size a normal good neutral flame is, ...maybe I will post some pics in afew days. But I agree alex, if its just for stringer, and I am only ahobbyist, I cant see it making an appreciable difference for a very long time.

[firefreak]

The reason "they" always say not to run a small flame for long period of time

The combustion of the fuel gas mixture actually takes place a few thousands of an inch past the face of the torch. When the torch is designed "they" take normal flow volume into account when figuring heat issues. With a higher volume of flow, the fuel mixture cools the torch head as it flows through the ports. It also pushes radiant feedback away from torch face. ( ever wonder how you can melt metal so fast in the flame, but not melt down the torch face? thats how!)

When turned down to a low flame the combustion can take place right on the face itself. on very low flame it can take place in the port tubes. Propane oxy mixture burns at 3900 deg F. mild steel melts at 1600 deg F. Stainless and alloys are higher, but below 3900. So the danger is that if the torch was run on to low of a flame for a extended period ( the larger the torch , the shorter to time) the metal the face is made of would begin to melt. This is why its important to size the torch to the work you plan to do. Running a large torch on low settings is just asking for problems.

[Nat]

Thanks Bryan for the information. I am the one that told Suzanne that it is not good to have pinpoint flame all the time and I couldn't tell her why. I only read it somewhere (I have a feeling it was something about Corina's Bobcat)! I am sure Piranha is not a large torch, does Lynx belong to the large torch category?

Natalie

[Firelilly]

Information I would probably otherwise never find out if I didn't have these boards to come to and folks here willing to share. Good to know, Bryan! Thanks so much!

Lil

[SuzFromOz]

The funny thing about all this is...that the size flame that i was refferring to nat as 'small' for my stringer work, seems to be turning into the working size...so im not sure how small everyone means when they say pinpoint flame. I just keep turning the damn thing down and still boiling the glass. grrrr
also, does anyone know why this would be happening.... when I turn the oxy on (so flame is already lit) sometimes the oxy kind of blows the flame out and away from the torch...so its still burning, but not in contact with the torch head, there is a gap. Then it goes out. I have managed to get it to burn properly after a couple of tries, but im not sure exactly what im doing to fix it. Ive tried turning the propane up before adding oxygen, and I add the oxy slow, so I wont blow it out, but it could also just be the concentrator running better after a few sec's, im just not sure. any hints??

[e. mort]

I think it all depends on your torch type, and how much oxy pressure you have. On the DVD that came with my GTT torch, they show setting up and running a flames that is not much longer or bigger around than a match stick.

That is also why some people recommend having a mirror set up some where to the front of your torch, so that you can keep an eye on your ports. If they start to glow at all, then you need to adjust your flame. It also makes sure that you notice if one of your ports is getting blocked and needs to be cleaned.

Eric

[kandice]

I have used a small flame on my minor consistently for the last 3 years or more. My torch is totally fine. If it breaks down as a result in the future, I'll just get a new one. It's a minor, though, so it might be able to handle the stress more than what you have. Using a small flame is imperative for what I do, though. :)

[Jude Rose]

Those specs were really interesting. I'm like Kandice, using the small flame a lot. But the Minor is 'small' torch, so perhaps Bryan's info explains why there have been no problems.

The thing that really strikes me is that with my way of working, I may want to really think long and hard before I get a bigger torch!

[Nat]

Suzanne, I get that 'gap' problem, if I turn the propane knob really high and add oxygen. See if it is any help by having a smaller propane flame to start with and add the oxygen gradually.

I don't know how small the flame you are working with - you have to show me! :) Anyway, it should not boil the glass.. unless you are working too close to the port or there is too much oxygen?

Nat

[SuzFromOz]

I am working way above the port, and I dont think I have too much oxygen....just before it starts to hiss. Anyway, I had to add more because my clear was getting sooty. Yep, you will have to come and have a look for me Nat,

Thanks everyone!

[firefreak]

Sorry it took a while to get back ( 30 hrs of hell at work)
I don't think a lynx would be considered a "large" torch in this case. The expert I talked to stated it is more a problem with 20 port and over surface mix and all premix torches. It can happen with smaller torches, but most of them can dissipate the heat fast enough to avoid damage in a short period of time. He told me you can still burn out smaller torch heads. It just takes a long time.

[firefreak]

Forgot gap problem!

The tubes (ports) that make up the torch head will only flow a maximum amount of gases and still be able to get combustion to occur. if the pressure is too high, the fuel and oxygen are not able to mix and burn fast enough. So it blows out the flame. Or if the fuel mix is to rich (to much propane) or to lean ( to little propane) the mixture goes out of flammability range.

My guess would be that your pumping to much oxy pressure through the ports. Ive done it on all my torches before while trying to get larger and larger flames. You will reach a point where the torch just cant handle any more flow and the flame blows out.

[SuzFromOz]

Thanks Bryan, but the wierd thing is I am trying to keep flame small, and since this has been happening I have been adding the oxy REALLy slowly...so I dont see how it could be to much pressure, unles the concentrator is actually blowing it out too hard.....

[R4GlassStudio]

There haven't been any Piranhas with a burned out face. Really on a small torch, it doesn't take much flow to keep everything fine. These are designed for a range of flame types including the lazer like fine flame. The only torches I have heard of having this problem was triple mixes and the Nortel Major.

[MikeAurelius]

A couple of thoughts --

I agree with Ron - it "can" be a problem on GTT Lynx's and above, and the way to get around it is to increase your oxygen flow with the secondary oxygen valve (blue). Having it cracked slightly open when using a small (short) flame will keep the face of the torch cool and eliminate any possibility of overheating the torch face.

On the bright flare when using didymium or even AUR-92 filters -- yes, this can occur. Remember that the chief reason we use didymium/AUR-92 filters is to remove the yellow sodium flare from the flame and glass. A bright white flare indicates a cross spectrum color flare (all colors), and since the didymium/AUR-92 filters only block part of the spectrum, you will still see certain colors.

As noted above, this is usually an indication that the glass is way too hot, as in frit burning (evaporating) -- remember that frit is very small, and a 3600 degree flame on a piece of glass that measures only about 1 mm is going to superheat it -- it is always recommended that when melting frit in, you should be working way far out in the flame until the frit is at least 50% melted in so that the base bead can act as a heat sink to prevent overheating and burn out.

[wildfirelauri]

A couple of thoughts --

I agree with Ron - it "can" be a problem on GTT Lynx's and above, and the way to get around it is to increase your oxygen flow with the secondary oxygen valve (blue). Having it cracked slightly open when using a small (short) flame will keep the face of the torch cool and eliminate any possibility of overheating the torch face.




I'll second this. If you are using a torch with secondary oxy valves (like a Lynx), be sure to crack it open at least a bit. Check your torch face for changes at the seals. Discoloration is normal, but crusty stuff coming out from the seal near the tip or glowing ports could lead to a meltdown.

[kbinkster]

Firefreak, thanks for the excellent explanation. You really know your stuff.

There haven't been any Piranhas with a burned out face. Really on a small torch, it doesn't take much flow to keep everything fine. These are designed for a range of flame types including the lazer like fine flame. The only torches I have heard of having this problem was triple mixes and the Nortel Major.

I haven't heard of any burned out Lynx faces. It looks like someone's been feeding you misinformation. In the future, it might be a good idea to check your facts before propagating that misinformation. I'm sure that you wouldn't want to mislead anyone regarding a torch, even if you yourself do not sell it.

I agree with Ron - it "can" be a problem on GTT Lynx's and above, and the way to get around it is to increase your oxygen flow with the secondary oxygen valve (blue). Having it cracked slightly open when using a small (short) flame will keep the face of the torch cool and eliminate any possibility of overheating the torch face.

You'd be setting up a bad flame if you try to get a small, tight flame that way, Mike. For a normal working flame, yes, it is a good idea to crack open the blue valve when running the red and green. BUT, this thread is discussing SMALL flames.

If you are looking for a small flame on a Lynx, just use your red and blue valve only (no green). You can run this tiny flame all day long and not do any damage to the torch whatsoever. There's no surface mix torch in the world that can get as small a flame as safely as a GTT Lynx.

Be careful who you get your advice from regarding running certain torches. Some people are grossly misinformed, yet consider themselves experts and others deliberately put out falsehoods (especially if they sell other torches and not GTTs).

[kbinkster]

I'll second this. If you are using a torch with secondary oxy valves (like a Lynx), be sure to crack it open at least a bit. Check your torch face for changes at the seals. Discoloration is normal, but crusty stuff coming out from the seal near the tip or glowing ports could lead to a meltdown.
Sometimes, people do get the face of their torches hot enough to blister the solder out from the joint where the head meets the barrel. It takes a lot of abuse for this to happen. And even so, the damage to that joint is cosmetic.

Glowing ports means that you aren't running it correctly. The instructions that come with the torch go into that.

Neither of these things (blistered solder or glowing ports) will lead to a melt-down. At worst, you'll carbon up the torch. In fact, I've never heard of a GTT melting down.

If you just run the torch using the instructions that come with it, you should not have any problems. If your jets are glowing orange, and you are carboning the torch up then you are running it wrong.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion regarding running small flames...

[IF-Designs]

now lets go TIP TOEEEEEE THROUGH THE TTTTTUUUULLLLIIIIIPPPPPPSSSSSSSS

[Rhapsody Fire Beads]

Not to interupt this brilliant discussion, but does anyone like my new "Jude" nail polish?
18437

[Kaye]

Suzy is barefoot, we dont want her to pick up any germs...now do we?

[x_phoenician]

Where's Julz!!!??? She can supervise

[Kaye]

Suzy, maybe you should put a sock on "it"

[Peg Medill]

Every year some one comes up with another torch and all of a sudden it becomes the "it" torch to buy. When I first started I got a 8M (still love it) and it got hacked cause the body got hot etc. and then the company changed the body and the heat problem got solved, but the negatives post put a black eye on the 8 M for awhile. Then the Lynx was the hot torch and I drooled over it till a kind person gave it to me for a Christmas gift. Now all these torches out are adding so much confusion as what is superior over another. My answer is "none are superior to another it is just how you learn to use your torch and what your needs are." Be thankful you have one and can make glass beads, sculpture or whatever. Let us all learn to love the torch we have and try and learn all we can about it and then when we have more funds or a desire to try different torches go purchase another torch. It may or may not fit the stage of glass working you are in, so get another torch and another torch, and another till you are happy if that is possible as we are such creative people, always trying something new. One may be enough to meet your needs forever (look at the Hothead owners that make as beautiful beads as any out there) or six torches would to you would be better. Glass bead making is always in some form of an experimental stage and that is why it keeps my interest up. Peg M

[Mr. Smiley]

Hey hey hey... did you miss this thread? It's new and improved and ready for you to make it awesome! :D Have fun! :love:

[moondanse]

Hey hey hey... did you miss this thread? It's new and improved and ready for you to make it awesome! :D Have fun! :love:


And quite sanitized....that works, right? It's good not to have to eat that unbearable black bird the next day.

AWESOME!!! LOVE!!!

[DesertDreamer]

The only time I've had trouble with a small flame is when I'm using a hush tip on the premix part of my Midrange. What I did to help me 'behave' is to set up a small mirror at the far end of my bench so I could see my torch face. (I actually started doing this to spot early carbon build-up, but now that I've switched to NG that's not a problem anymore.) With a mirror you can see if your torch face is heating up. If none of the metal is glowing (even dull red) you're good to go. It takes a LOT of unbalanced heat to make most torch faces glow. My hush tip is brass so it's a lot quicker/easier. I fried my very first tip this way, but replaced it and paid attention thereafter. Just upgraded the hush tip and, after some "getting to know you" time I'm fine again. Mirrors are a VERY good thing!

Mirror mirror
on the wall
is my torch flame
way too small?

Flame on!

[Mr. Smiley]

Awesome tip Karen and it will work with all the wonderful surface mix troches as well as the premix ones. Plus, you can see yourself make silly "I'm concentrating really hard" faces. :lol:

[firefreak]

I have always had a mirror at the back of my bench. You cant see how far the glass is expanding when blowing and turning at the same time. ( looking down the blow pipe). I also use it to watch torch face for problems every once in a while. Never thought to mention it in this thread.
Thats the great thing about putting all these heads together on a problem!!!

[raindance]

When turned down to a low flame the combustion can take place right on the face itself. on very low flame it can take place in the port tubes. Propane oxy mixture burns at 3900 deg F. mild steel melts at 1600 deg F. Stainless and alloys are higher, but below 3900. So the danger is that if the torch was run on to low of a flame for a extended period ( the larger the torch , the shorter to time) the metal the face is made of would begin to melt. This is why its important to size the torch to the work you plan to do. Running a large torch on low settings is just asking for problems.

THIS is the reason I like having this guy around when I'm at my torch. It's the reason why I'm still intact & why my torch hasn't suffered meltdown. If I have a problem...he rescues me. He chose my torch, set everything up and showed me how to use and care for it. It's also handy to have my resident fireman around while I'm playing with fire...one never knows...:love: ;)

[Starrr]

The only torch I've ever used is a minor with 2 oxy concentrators, and I use my knobs all the time, I tend to work very hot. Even on one bead, I go from medium to melt, full boat propane to reduce, to a fine pinpoint just a slight 1/2 inch from the torch head for detail. If I see carbon building up on a port, I just flick it off with my knife and keep working. I clean my ports a few times a week but found the most important thing is to not ever let your propane tank get so low that it runs out. I swap out when I'm about 2/3 down, that way I'm not getting any gunk on my beads from the additives in the propane. The first time I see my glass get an air bubble, new tank.

I've been thinking of adding a Cudda, but I love the small pinpoint flame I get with my minor that I'm not sure I could adjust to a new torch if I couldn't get so up and personal with the flame.

[kbinkster]

When turned down to a low flame the combustion can take place right on the face itself. on very low flame it can take place in the port tubes. Propane oxy mixture burns at 3900 deg F. mild steel melts at 1600 deg F. Stainless and alloys are higher, but below 3900. So the danger is that if the torch was run on to low of a flame for a extended period ( the larger the torch , the shorter to time) the metal the face is made of would begin to melt. This is why its important to size the torch to the work you plan to do. Running a large torch on low settings is just asking for problems.
One thing I will add is that running a large torch on low settings is problematic if you are running the whole torch. If it is a large torch with a centerfire, then just running the centerfire of that large torch will not be a problem. But, yes, if you are running the whole thing on low settings, then it can cause problems.

I think where most people run into problems is when they want a broader flame for say long beads. They don't need a lot of heat, they just want it to be spread out so they can keep their long bead warm (there are other methods of keeping long beads warm, btw). So, they get a torch that has a wide face and then just run it low. Perhaps a better thing to do would be to adjust the flame and work farther out. There are a couple of ways to do this. One is to add more oxygen to the flame and work where it feathers out. Another method is to add air to the propane to thin it out and weaken the flame. Yet another way to get around running a low flame on a big torch to keep a long bead (or other object) warm is to learn how to move the glass in the flame and balance the heat.

When I bought my Phantom, it was because I was starting to make bigger things. I thought that I needed the wider face/broader flame to keep the bigger things warm. Well, now that I have some more experience under my belt, I find that I use the centerfire (the Lynx) for the some of the same things I originally bought my Phantom to do. I do not use the outer fire to keep bigger things warm. I move the glass and balance the heat. The outer fire comes in handy when melting huge gathers quickly and working murrini (haven't made one in a while - will have to do some soon). But really, I use the centerfire so much more than the outer fire for the stuff that I'm doing now (soft glass).

So, when moving up to a bigger torch, I suggest looking at all your needs and weighing them carefully. If you just want a big torch, that's one thing - go for it, it's fun. But, if you think you need one because all you need is a way to keep long beads from cracking, and otherwise, you're happy, then take a look at how you're working - maybe a few modifications can make all the difference you need. Does that make sense?

PS I wanted to add that I am still happy I bought my Phantom because I did need it for some of the things that I was doing and things that I still plan to do (like more marbles, paperweights and some bigger boro sculpture). But, if all I needed was to keep long beads warm, then it would have been unnecessary.

[kbinkster]

The only torch I've ever used is a minor with 2 oxy concentrators, and I use my knobs all the time, I tend to work very hot. Even on one bead, I go from medium to melt, full boat propane to reduce, to a fine pinpoint just a slight 1/2 inch from the torch head for detail. If I see carbon building up on a port, I just flick it off with my knife and keep working. I clean my ports a few times a week but found the most important thing is to not ever let your propane tank get so low that it runs out. I swap out when I'm about 2/3 down, that way I'm not getting any gunk on my beads from the additives in the propane. The first time I see my glass get an air bubble, new tank.

I've been thinking of adding a Cudda, but I love the small pinpoint flame I get with my minor that I'm not sure I could adjust to a new torch if I couldn't get so up and personal with the flame.
About your propane... I think you're wasting a lot of propane. EDIT: You're wasting it if you're swapping out tanks. If you're just getting the same tank refilled, you only pay for what they put in. EDIT, AGAIN: I just got my propane tanks refilled and learned that when you pay for a fill, you pay for a fill - regardless of what is left in the tank. So... As long as you keep your tank upright, you should not have any problem with the additives affecting your glass. The torch operates on the fumes that come up off the liquid - so, there is nothing that really gets onto your glass at lower tank levels that could not get onto your glass otherwise. If you tip the tank, though, that junk can come up through your lines and shoot out fireballs from your torch or make a flame that makes your torch look like a flame thrower.

If you are getting stuff on your glass, it could be that you are not burning the propane enough or that you are running your flame too low and overheating your torch, causing carbon buildup. If your torch is carboning up, carbon from that can get onto your glass. How you run your flame directly affects what happens to your torch and your glass. What length candles are you running? What do they look like?

Air bubbles are not indicative of impurities in your propane. Scumming (lots of tiny air bubles) can be caused by working too hot (boiling your glass). There are lots of other reasons for air bubbles, but "additives in your propane" is not among them.

I read that you have not used any torch other than the Minor. I think you would be surprised at the small flames some other torches can get. If you run just the centerfire of the 'cuda, you will be a ble to get a small flame. If you run a triple mix torch, you will be able to get an even smaller flame.

[bhhco]

If you tip the tank, though, that junk can come up through your lines and shoot out fireballs from your torch or make a flame that makes your torch look like a flame thrower.



Will that occur with the 20# "BBQ tank" with a OPD and regulator?
Maybe that's what's causing some problems for folks with one-gas torches.
Bill

[kbinkster]

Will that occur with the 20# "BBQ tank" with a OPD and regulator?
Maybe that's what's causing some problems for folks with one-gas torches.
Bill
Yes, that can still occur on a BBQ tank with OPD and a regulator, but I think that having the regulator in-line probably cuts down on the occurance.

Willy did a show once where someone was running the Python (tank was about twice the size of a regular BBQ tank - 40#/10 gallon with an OPD and a regulator) and someone else (I won't mention his name ;)) said that he heard that you get more out of a propane tank if you turn it over on its side. Well, the next thing you know, the torch is shooting out a gigantic yellow flame. Willy looked over and saw that the propane tank was on its side and ran over and turned it back upright. Problem solved.

I have read a lot about people hanging their bulk propane lines for their HotHeads to get out all the gunk, but have never heard anyone do that for an oxy/propane torch set-up. I really think that a regulator plays a role in at least blocking some of the liquid stuff that gets sloshed up to the top of the tank when it is tipped/moved/whatever. Maybe it's a function of pressure, too.

[bhhco]

Thank you Kimberly.

I guess "no name" was right.
He did get more out of it on it's side!
Just not what he expected :shock:

Bill