Want Torch. Need Advice. [Archive]

sweetiedog

2006-03-06, 7:28pm

ARGH! :x I have read EVERY thread on this forum about torches. Literally spent hours and hours reading. I think it made me more confused than ever.

I am currently on a HH and have already *outgrown* it for my level of patience. It takes me so incredibly long to encase a bead that I get frustrated and just give up. I want a new torch and the whole getup. SPECIFICS:

Fuel - Household NG. Propane not an option.
Oxy - ONE (not more) oxycon. (need to buy one of these too). Tanked O2 not an option.
Glass - soft only. Zero interest in boro.
Usage - jewelry size beads, fine detail, lots of encasing.
Level - newbie. Need an easy to use flame that isn't finicky.

I want something I can grow into ... but not something so overkill that it is a waste of money for my needs. First thought was minor or mini cc - but heard the mini is an O2 hog and needs 2 concentrators, and the minor doesn't have as nice a flame. Then I thought Betta cause its designed to work on low pressure, but is it too hot for what I need? I don't want to make things more difficult by needing to manage a super hot flame designed for boro and boiling the crap out of everything.

I was saving my $$ for a kiln, but now I'm thinking I need the new torch first - but then I'll need an O2 concentrator too...

I'M DRIVING MYSELF NUTS. PLEASE HELP!! ](*,) (I am just as indecisive with all matters in my life.)

BeadingBabe

2006-03-06, 7:59pm

For what it's worth, I upgraded from a HH to a mini cc on NG with one concentrator. I love it!!! I am able to adjust the flame for detail work and melt glass for encasing with ease.
Good luck with your decision making
Kris

sweetiedog

2006-03-06, 8:18pm

I've heard people really like the mini CC ... but I always thought they said you need 2 concentrators - unless maybe that is just for boro?!? Hmm. This is good news as I was considering that torch first.

Deb Hopeful Journeys

2006-03-06, 8:19pm

Hi!

I just upgraded from a HH to a Minor. I was going and forth between three torches. A Pihrana, Mini CC and Minor.

Here is what I used to help with my decision.

1) I knew that I wanted to get a torch that I could use for quite a while. I didn't want to upgrade and then find out I wanted to upgrade again because the torch wouldn't do what I wanted it to do.

2) What type of glass was I primarily working with currently and what glass I thought I would continue to work with in the next couple of years.

3) What sort of flame I liked? I would highly recommend if possible to find someone in your area, a store or a get together so that you can try different torches. This helped me in my decision of purchasing a torch.

4) What fuel I was going to use along with the oxygen. I wanted to make sure that at this point that if I bought a new torch that I could torch with only 1 oxycon.

My decision to purchase a minor was made because I was able to try it first hand. I also decided that I would be melting soft glass for the next few years so that I could learn how to manipulate glass before I spent a ton of money on boro.

I know many people have been very happy with a Mini CC. I have never torched with that one so I have no advice on that.

Hope this info helps!

Deb in MN

sweetiedog

2006-03-06, 8:23pm

Deb in MN ... where in MN?? I am in MN too! I've been flip flopping so much between the same three ... and then they go through this new betta in the mix to confuse me more. Are you using NG or propane with your minor?

Mr. Smiley

2006-03-06, 8:58pm

I have never run a Minor on NG... but it is a good little torch. If you are worried about the Betta being way to hot and boiling your color, don't be. You can get a lot of heat out of it or you can tone it down. It's very kind on color, both soft and hard glass. I'm not sure it's the right torch for you, but it isn't overkill. ;) If a Minor will work for your situation, I'd say go for it. It'll melt a lot of glass, run on one concentrator and doesn't cost a lot. In the beginning, that's normally a factor. Hopefully somebody with NG and Minor experience will chime in with their results. :love:

sweetiedog

2006-03-06, 10:32pm

Hi Mr. Smiley :wave: ... was hoping you'd pop in here. So you think the Betta might be a little much for me and I would do just fine with a Minor or Mini CC? There is definitely a price difference ... and considering I still need to get me a kiln and oxycon it would help to save some $$. I just want to make sure I get the right torch the first time (ahem, 2nd time) so I don't have to retrain myself all over again. #-o I'm sure it will be hard enough getting use to a 2-stage torch now that I've learned everything on the HH. I can pretty much forget stringer control for awhile - not that I really have it now ...

kbinkster

2006-03-06, 11:36pm

I have heard that the Minor works well on NG and a single concentrator. I have also heard that a Mini CC will run on the same, but that the body gets hotter on one concentrator than on two.

No one else has mentioned it, yet, so I will. I suggest looking into a GTT Bobcat. Of course, I am biased in my opinion - and have been for about three years since going from a HotHead to a GTTLynx.

The Bobcat can run on household pressure NG and one 5lpm concentrator. It is a standard torch (meaning one gas and one oxygen, not a triple mix), but is built with the GTT cooling system. This means that the torch body remains cool to the touch while running. It gets a nice small flame for detail work, yet can get slightly broader than a Minor.

You can most definitely work soft glass with the Bobcat. Although it was designed for the soft glass bead artist, it can work boro very well. You may not have an interest in working boro, but there are times when you need the same amount of heat for something in soft glass. The Bobcat is capable of creating a lot of heat when you need it, like for encasing.

The Bobcat costs $195.

It might be frustrating to decide what torch to get, but at least there are plenty of options out there.

pointerspoint

2006-03-06, 11:57pm

I've been reading posts about torches too, thinking of upgrading from a Hot Head. I have no problem actually with the HH flame per se, just the fact that it takes a long time to melt things. So what I would like is a torch that is similar to the flame of the HH but just hotter. The reason for this is I like the radiant heat because I enjoy making small sculptural thingies which, even though small they are not as small as a simple round bead and I've had no problem keeping them hot and not breaking them with the HH flame.

The posts seem to indicate the Mini CC is the torch for me, but my only concern is that I really don't want to buy 2 oxycons right off the bat so it would have to run on propane and 1 oxycon. But right now I'm only doing soft glass so, based on my research of posts, this seems like it would work.

So I guess my question is, is there any other torch that seems like it would fill the bill for me, or am I right in that the Mini CC is probably what I want? I've only ever worked on a HH so no idea really how the other torches would be.

Thanks,
Teresa

kbinkster

2006-03-07, 12:14am

Keep in mind that just because a torch has radiant heat, that doesn't mean that your bead will be bathed in an even heat. It's a rythmic dance - back and forth, side to side. There's timing and skill involved in keeping a sculptural bead evenly heated without melting away your detail. This is not to say that a Mini CC is not the torch for you.

Look around and see if you can try out some different torches. Like I mentioned earlier, I went from a HotHead to a Lynx. With the blue valve off (or just slightly cracked) using the red and green, there is radiant heat from the flame and it behaves like a Bobcat. I still do the dance with the glass because I want that heat to be distributed evenly. When I use the red and blue valves only, I can get such a small pinpoint that I can work small areas without disturbing the detail I've already laid down on the bead. It works for me.

See if you can try some torches out there to find what works for you.

meadowesky

2006-03-07, 12:28am

Moretti and more ( Islandglass!!!) on ebay has the minors on sale for 139 which is the cheapest I could find a new one if that is what you decided to get. bill said the sale will be over soon cause he has sold so many of them. I use a minor and I love it! Not on NG yet though. But it does fine on my ox con.

parisgal

2006-03-07, 5:27am

I've used the Minor, the Mini and the Lynx. I've never used the Betta. I believe the Bobcat flame works like the Lynx, and from the post above, it seems to be a possible choice. In fact, I'm assuming from the posts that the Minor, Mini, Betta and Bobcat will all "work" and it's a choice of which is preferable.

First, if I were making the choice, I would choose any of the other torches (Mini, Betta or Bobcat) over the Minor.

I owned a Minor, and spent a week in a class working on Mini, and used the Lynx for an hour. When I got back to my Minor after the class, I really didn't like it anymore. The Minor doesn't have much flexibility or control of the torch flame. I couldn't do things I learned in class, because I was fighting the torch more. I was surprised, because I was pleased with my torch before the class.

Second, if I were to on household NG, I'd look seriously at the Betta. If you can get a nice directed flame, "lots of heat" really won't be too hot, you can just use the edges of the flame. As I said, this is the torch that I know the least about, so I'm putting it so high on the list because it is really annouced as "made for low pressure"

Third, the Mini and Bobcat -- they are both nice torches. I would go with the Bobcat, I love the really fine flame that the torch puts out -- which allows me control over heating the glass and spot heating. But I defintely wouldn't dismiss a Mini. Probably the best way to put it is: I'd buy a Bobcat in this situation, but if a Mini was already installed, I'd keep it.

My $.02

Mr. Smiley

2006-03-07, 5:29am

Also keep the M-10 in mind for oxygen supply. It's like two regular oxycons for the low price $580. Check out Generations glass or I carry them as well. I think he calls them a P-10... same thing. This will power the smaller torches mentioned very well. A mini CC is closest to a HH is flame charateristics. It's probably the easiest to transition from, but it does have heat limitations. Since it is so unfocused, it can only get so hot. It's always a trade off. :love:

pam

2006-03-07, 5:37am

Hi Leslie, Let me just say this to you, instead of getting into "torch wars" with the two reps from different companies, think about this:

The Minor is the workhorse of the lampworking industry. Lots of people go their whole lives without working on any other torch. The Mini CC is a good torch, but IF it is true that it heats up running on one concentrator, and you don't want to buy two, then I wouldn't buy a torch that is going to heat up so you won't be able to touch the controls for the oxy and fuel. The Bobcat is a good torch also, as well as the Betta. Those are all options for you.

Any torch you get, there is going to be a learning curve, so it doesn't really matter which one you opt for. You can't make a mistake. You will learn to use it just as every other lampworker has learned who has changed from a HH to an oxy/fuel torch. You are not going to have the radiant heat on an oxy/fuel torch that you have on a HH. Realize that now. You are going to have to learn to do the flame dance just as every other lampworker has done. Don't expect the radiant heat and you won't be disappointed. Whatever torch you buy you will be able to resell it at any point if you decide you want a different torch. You may not ever decide that, but I don't think used torches ever stay for sale very long, so that option is open to you.

The best way to decide on a torch is to actually try them all out. As far as I know there is only one place to do that and that is the Gathering. However, since the torches will not be running on ng and an oxy con, then that won't help you as much. Just go with your heart and learn to use whatever torch you choose. Given the choices you can't go wrong. You will either end up with a Minor, a Bobcat or a Betta, all good torches, all great manufacturers. If you want to buy two oxy cons, or one that puts out more pressure or lpm's, then add the Mini CC into the mix. It's simple, just choose and dedicate yourself to learning to use the torch you buy.

sweetiedog

2006-03-07, 9:18am

Thanks everyone - this is really GREAT advice! Keep it coming. I am a *hard* sell.

I hadn't thought much about the Bobcat, but will definitely look into it further. My main concern is having a lot of flexibility with the flame. I really like encasing - which is my current frustration point with the HH - and I also like to do a lot of detail stringer work - another frustration point with the HH as I end up melting some of it in when I am not paying close attention. So I want a torch that can do both really well. I also want to start playing with reduction frits and I know I'll need a lot of heat for those.

The 2 oxycons was my main concern with the Mini as I have a tendency to get REALLY close to my working area. I envision lots of bandaged hands in my future #-o

I also don't want to go for the Minor just because it is cost effective ... as that is what the HH was for me, but at the same time I don't want to go buying a $500 torch that is way more than I actually need.

Pam - thanks for the great insight. I hadn't thought about being able to resell it if I really ended up not liking it. That has been part of my paranoia - spending a wad of $$ and then being stuck with something I don't like.

PaulaD

2006-03-07, 11:37am

I've only used a Minor, a Wildcat, and the Mini CC. I love the Mini CC (using it with liquid oxygen and propane). I set up my studio with them on the advice of some very smart technical people and the students love them. I understand from Carlisle that they run on as little as 1/4 psi for NG. There's no way that I could go back to my Minor!! Paula

R4GlassStudio

2006-03-07, 11:37am

Pam...... Ditto.
Everyone has a torch that they are a fan of. I like the "try them all" and pick the one that fits your needs / style best. One thing to keep in mind is how much heat you'll need for encasing larger beads. So when you get to play on a few torches, push them to the larger side of what you "will" do, then run them with a super small focus to test your detail control.
Ron Jr.

Cosmo

2006-03-07, 11:48am

I'll echo what others have said about the Minor. As an owner of 6 of them myself, I can't say enough good things about them. It runs well on propane and natural gas, and runs well on tanked oxygen and on concentrators (one or two). We still teach on Minors, and probably will for a while to come.

I know several beadmakers (and a few "big name" beadmakers) who have only worked on a Minor, and have no desire to work on anything else. Plus, these days it's one of the cheapest dual fuel torches out there. Add to that Nortel's good customer service, and you can't go wrong.

Three Muses Glass

2006-03-07, 2:39pm

I'll just throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth. The only gas/oxy torch I've used is the Mini. I ran it on one oxycon with NG for close to 6 months. The knobs do get warm to the touch but it's not painful, it's just on the hotter side of warm. I'll add though that I do take frequent breaks and probably have never had more than a 2 hour non-stop run. Yes, it does run much better with 2 but one was fine for awhile.

mtarara

2006-03-07, 3:29pm

I'll add my 2 cents, but keep in mind that I'm a newbie! I am in the 2nd week of using my Betta that I bought after 3 mo. on a Hothead. I can't help you with the NG because I am using propane; but I have to say I have barely tapped the potential for this torch. I have an Airsep 5lpm concentrator and am only at 2psi propane; I barely open either the green or red valve and have plenty of heat. At first I overheated everything, but quickly learned to turn the heat down and am adjusting easily. The pinpoint flame is easy to use and wonderful. The hardest adjustment is remembering that you aren't getting the same radiant heat as the hothead, and to frequently wave your bead through the flame as you are doing the details! I have the cracked beads to remind me of that!!! I would echo everythink Mr. Smiley said, and add that I LOVE this new torch so far, and feel I have a huge potential for growth with it, which was a big part of my decision in choosing it. Also I know it has great resale value if I changed my mind! Hope this helps a little, I also had a hard time choosing, and think every torch is good. Its up to us to learn how to work with it and make it great!

IF-Designs

2006-03-07, 3:42pm

Ive used quite a few different torches and for what your describing I really think the minor is gonna be your best bet here. I have a bobcat and cheetah but ive used a minor too and there is a nice soft wispy flame chemistry you can get with a low heat flame on the minor that just isnt the same on the bobcat and mini cc their flames are almost a bit too penetrating at times and I found myself melting in stringer ALOT but on the minor I didnt fuss with it it just "happeened" it was more stringer friendly ;) but I could still get HEAT when I needed too. So if your doing soft glass , lots of stringer maybe some sculpty stuff I say the minor personally I think you will be very happy with that. :)
Karin
resident GTT lover

sweetiedog

2006-03-07, 4:04pm

I think I may just need to play myself a game of eenie meenie minie moe after all. :-k

Karin - as a resident GTT lover I'd have thought you'd be praising the Bobcat for me ... as it was moving its way to the top of the list. May have to rethink the Minor again.

mtarara - did you go for the Betta cause you want to move into boro at some point? I was looking very closely at this torch but kept thinking it was probably more than what I needed for soft glass.

It seems I am now down to the Betta, Bobcat or Minor. As much as people love their Mini CC, the overheating with 1 oxycon makes me nervous as I know I will have a tendency to turn my flames way down - I do it already on the HH.

Maybe someone should just decide for me, buy it, ship it and just bill me. I'll be surprised :lol:

IF-Designs

2006-03-07, 4:18pm

yep i know the bobcat is an awesome torch if you want to do marbles and larger stuff and maybe maybe boro I would say bobcat for sure but it seems that what you want out of your torch and from my experiences on them the minor would be more of what you would like :) and be more comfortable with flame wise.

mtarara

2006-03-08, 3:27pm

I didn't get the Betta because I wanted to go to Boro, but I also didn't want to be limited. I think what really sold me was being able to work at low pressures in case I can at some point hook up to household NG. I also was interested in the tiny pinpoint flame. I use my melting flame pretty narrow because I'm still adjusting to the heat after the hothead, but it can get much larger even with my 5lpm concentrator and 2psi propane. It seems to give me a lot of flexibility for the future. I pm'd you.

Flamechick

2006-03-08, 4:22pm

Leslie: Thank you for this thread. Like you, I am currently using a HH, but would like to move on. I have changed my mine 100 times on which torch to get, which is just making my brain tired! My dream torch has the same specs as you, plus I would like to have a torch that will have the juice to melt some boro when I'm ready to try that. I'm really liking what I'm hearing about the Betta, so I'm leaning toward getting that right now.

Good luck making your decision!

sweetiedog

2006-03-08, 4:37pm

Amber: You're welcome :-D It is not even fun anymore! Just when I think I have my mind made up and am all ready to push the "buy me" button, I get new information and am confused all over again :confused: At least one thing is done. I ordered the oxycon. It'll probably sit all alone in the basement, patiently waiting for its mate to arrive, longing for the day they can be together. *sigh*