M-10 and M-20 oxy concentrator feild testing thread... whatcha doing with yours?

[Mr. Smiley]

Well, I kind of though we hijacked enough threads talking about these units. Let's put it all in one thread where it can make sense, evolve and hopefully we can provide eachother and the company with some good feedback.


I set up two M-20's last night to run a Cuda. During the first little while, I must admit I was unsure. I didn't have a bottle hooked up and I was a little scared. It was a nervous energy. First I tried to crank the units... I mean come on. Who wouldn't? I had them set at about 10 LPM each. For some reason I had it in my head that these were capable of 20, so I'm only at 50% right... wrong. They are 20 PSI and 10 LPM, so once I got my head screwed on straight, I remembered the plan and why I have two. I backed them off and set them at 7-8 each... my torch liked that much better. I started to level out and feel the hummmmmm of the machines. They are quiet. Every once in a while, the go psssss ever so softly. They are baby oxygen dragons and they snore for you every once in a while. LOL

Ok, so now for the day after results... The Triple Passion I worked came out very nice. I like the look of it better than with the GTT and bottles. I was able to have a tiny bit of haze and encase it or not have any at all. It was cool and definitely different than what I'm used to. The set up is plenty hot enough to work small to medium boro. I'm not planning any 3" marbles right now anyway. ;) I will throw it up on one of the lathes and give it a run on some thicker rod... should I start with the 44MM? :lol:

Which one are you running and what's it powering? Do you like it? Do you not like it? Let's have an open honest discussion from the end users. :love:

[Firelilly]

I'm using an M-10 with a Mini cc torch and I love it. I don't have anything to compare it to since all of this is new to me and this is the only torch and only concentrator I've ever used other than the Minor and tank oxy at school, but I don't have any complaints with my set-up.

It's very quiet. Wish I could say the same for that jet engine fan I'm using! Mmm...what else? I'm only working with soft glass. I don't know if I'd be able to melt boro using this concentrator or not.

Lil

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

I can't wait to get mine (my two M-20s, that is). I will spend a couple days with them and then post some opinions. I've worked Boro and soft glass with many configurations in the last year:

Nortel Minor on one oxycon
Nortel Minor on two oxycons (total of 8-10LPM)
Nortel Minor on bottled O2
GTT Lynx on two oxycons (total of 8-10LPM)
GTT Lynx on Bottled O2
GTT Lynx on Integra-10
GTT Lynx on Integra-10 & 5 LPM oxycon
GTT Phantom on two oxycons (pathetic)
GTT Phantom on compressed O2 (awesome!)

And soon, a GTT Phantom on two M-20s.

My plan is to do a bit of a critique as well as post pictures. Stand by . . . . .

Brad

[Mr. Smiley]

I'll also be trying these on a Cheetah next week. Will let you know how that set up performs. ;)

[Lisi]

I'll also be trying these on a Cheetah next week. Will let you know how that set up performs. ;)

This I would love to know!

[Mr. Smiley]

Lisa, I will definitely let you know. :D

[e. mort]

So, I am understanding this is giving you 100% of the power you had before with your lynx torch on either tanked or liquid oxy? Hmmm, might be an option for me to think about. I could stick with tanked for the outer fire of the delta, and then use something like this to fire the Lynx section which is what I seem to use about 90% of the time. I am still considering liquid, but I really don't want to freak out the neighbors, or my insurance company since they are ok with the compressed oxy tanks right now.

However, there is a guy on the block who is into rocketry, so between the two of us we might get the whole block re-zoned: Little Baghdad USA! :lol: (And we aren't talking your little rockets here, we are talking the ones that you actually have to file flight plans with the FAA about.)

Eric

[ukiacat]

Mr Smiley, Are you saying it takes 2 [M-20s] to properly run a Barracuda because you mainly use boro? My husband just made the oyxen tank replacement trip this morning. I keep two big ones on hand and both were empty. He was [again] asking when I thought I'd get a concentrator. I keep putting it off because of the initial expense. Would I have to have 2 of them to run my Cuda for soft glass? 8-[

[Mr. Smiley]

Jennifer, I can't really answer that for ya. JC runs one M-20 and says she loves it for her Cuda. She does soft and boro. I think it would be under powered for me to have just one.

Eric, it's not just like tanked O2. It's definitely close enough for what I do. I haven't had a problem yet anyway. I got two, so I could run them in the range where their purity is best... ;) The new Cyclones may be just what you are looking for. We'll have to wait and see I guess. Your neighborhood sounds fun! :lol:

[oxydoc]

So, I am understanding this is giving you 100% of the power you had before with your lynx torch on either tanked or liquid oxy? Hmmm, might be an option for me to think about. I could stick with tanked for the outer fire of the delta, and then use something like this to fire the Lynx section which is what I seem to use about 90% of the time. I am still considering liquid, but I really don't want to freak out the neighbors, or my insurance company since they are ok with the compressed oxy tanks right now.

However, there is a guy on the block who is into rocketry, so between the two of us we might get the whole block re-zoned: Little Baghdad USA! :lol: (And we aren't talking your little rockets here, we are talking the ones that you actually have to file flight plans with the FAA about.)

Eric
Little Baghdad USA, very cool post! You may be a pioneer in this field. This is the first time I have heard of someone talking about using bottle oxygen along with a concentrator. May be the secret to conserving bottle o2 and still getting the results you are looking for. By the way, youre not giving o2 to the "Rocket Man" are you? lol jack

[kbinkster]

Little Baghdad USA, very cool post! You may be a pioneer in this field. This is the first time I have heard of someone talking about using bottle oxygen along with a concentrator. May be the secret to conserving bottle o2 and still getting the results you are looking for. By the way, youre not giving o2 to the "Rocket Man" are you? lol jack
Jack,

Using a concentrator with a bottle is becoming a widely accepted practice. Some torches have two or more independent rings of fire. On torches with four studs, each "fire" has it's own set of oxygen and propane inlets. The center fire is what most people use for small to medium sized stuff and detail work, and then they kick on the outer fire to work bigger stuff, or to get more heat for whatever reason.

Anyway, some people will run the center fire on a concentrator and the outer fire on a tank (or another concentrator, depending on how much oxygen it needs).

:)

[oxydoc]

Jack,

Using a concentrator with a bottle is becoming a widely accepted practice. Some torches have two or more independent rings of fire. On torches with four studs, each "fire" has it's own set of oxygen and propane inlets. The center fire is what most people use for small to medium sized stuff and detail work, and then they kick on the outer fire to work bigger stuff, or to get more heat for whatever reason.

Anyway, some people will run the center fire on a concentrator and the outer fire on a tank (or another concentrator, depending on how much oxygen it needs).:)

That is very cool stuff. I would love to see some of these larger torches. Ross at ABR was using a "cannon" one day when I was up there. I was amazed that he could work with so much flame. I guess I need to get out more. lol jack

[kbinkster]

Well, hang around here long enough, Jack, and you might get bitten by the glass bug!

[jokersdesign]

jack,

Here is a picture of the torch I just bought from a member of this forum you know as none other then Mr. Smiley.

http://www.glasstorchtech.com/mirage.html

This is an even bigger torch and show the inner and outer rings.

http://www.glasstorchtech.com/delta.html

I plan on using 2 concentrators I have right now to power the center ring and tanked oxygen and a foot pedal for the outer ring.

I'm hoping that those cyclone I or cyclone II that your distributors will be selling will be enought to power the outer ring so I can be oxygen tank free.

Robert

[Mr. Smiley]

Yeah, let's get Jack hooked on melting glass too! :D As much as we seem to bicker around here, we all have at least one thing we agree on... GLASS ROCKS! :lol: Come to AGI and hang with us for a week Jack, I'm sure Paul can hold down the fort that long... or maybe you could both come. It's way too much fun to miss. :love:

[apollack]

What about a Carlisle?

[Mr. Smiley]

What about a Carlisle?
Carlisle and South central are going to be hooking up and working on testing those torches together. I just talked to Chris at Carlisle about flow rates the other day. Hopefully that info will be official and some time soon. Until then, we'll have to hope somebody running that torch on one of these units chimes in. :lol:

[oxydoc]

You know, I could see me getting hooked on this. We have been playing with a Baracuda and several Nortels while testing these machines. Paul is actually getting good at it. Of course Im taking notes and making changes while hes having fun. I have too many hobbies now.

[Mr. Smiley]

Yeah, I see a ton of glass in your future... my crystal ball is very clear on this. :lol:

[oxydoc]

Yeah, I see a ton of glass in your future... my crystal ball is very clear on this. :lol:
Hey, if its a crystal ball that you made, it dont count!!

[MisoBeady]

I have an M20 and use it with a Lynx and I love it! The little hiss is sort of soothing. I only use soft glass.

[orodrago]

Hi MisoBeady,
Mind sharing what LPM you keep yours at for soft glass?
Cheers,
Lavender

[Mr. Smiley]

Jack, are these M-20's the Millenium 10 LPM units when you get them? How many actual LPM's are the flow meters showing at 10? It doesn't say that unit of measurement is actually a LPM. I've tried calling you today. Give me a call when you get a minute. ;)

[oxydoc]

Jack, are these M-20's the Millenium 10 LPM units when you get them? How many actual LPM's are the flow meters showing at 10? It doesn't say that unit of measurement is actually a LPM. I've tried calling you today. Give me a call when you get a minute. ;)
Hey Brent, the settings are lpms. You can double check it with a liter meter. If you dont have one, I can send you one. The machine started out as a 5 lpm unit. thats why the 10 scale decal. I finaly got your order from Art Glass House today. Expect them to leave by the end of the week. Sorry about the phone, I had to do a lot of running today. jack

[Mr. Smiley]

So, the 10 on the scale is actually 10 LPM or darn close?

[Mr. Smiley]

I'll just go down to the hospital or to a local dealer and check it out. My wife works at the hospital, so getting somebody local to test them, shouldn't be hard. Since these units came out of general population and weren't sent specially for me or anything, maybe peoples questions about the output and quality can finally be put to bed. ;)

[oxydoc]

I'll just go down to the hospital or to a local dealer and check it out. My wife works at the hospital, so getting somebody local to test them, shouldn't be hard. Since these units came out of general population and weren't sent specially for me or anything, maybe peoples questions about the output and quality can finally be put to bed. ;)
Yes, the lpm scale should be very close to a liter meter. Im sorry that Im slow on responses, but Im really hopping. Your friend's M20s left the shop today. Your units as anyones, are taken out of inventory and not custom made. In fact, yours came from Art Glass House. They keep several in their inventory and we also inventory them for AGH. Sometimes we get low on inventory and they go from bench to box. Hope everything is as expected. Please be critical of the unit and dont hold any punches. I can take it and I will use your input for further production. Thanks again, jack

[Mr. Smiley]

No worries are coming from using the units... any worries I have are coming from outside sources... and then those are being answered perfectly by you. I really appreciate all you are doing and your attitude couldn't be better. You rock! :D I hope you get the things you discussed with me yesterday into production... those are going to be awesome. :D This is all really exciting news for boro workers. :D

[KLittle]

Brent, do your machines "breath"?

I am curious as it seems logical that all concentrators/generators would "breathe" if there is no holding tank to keep the flow constant. Like with each cycle it has an exhale or something. I have noticed it with my machine (a generator,but not what you are using) and figure that it is just part of not using tanked O2. Any thoughts on this? Am I even making sense with my question?

I appreciate any input!

Kari

[Justin L]

concentrators/generators that use pressure swing adsorption technology should breathe. That means that if there is 2 sieve beds, it should breathe...as the valves switch the compressed air from one sieve bed to the other. Only units I am aware of that you wont hear breathe are the Sequal units, because they have a totally different sieve bed design with a rotating motor on the bottom of it that constantly cycles the air through the parts of the sieve bed, eliminating the breathing noise.

And believe it or not, your generator probably has a holding tank (product tank) of some sort in it, but its probably small...not a 30 gallon tank like you may be thinking of :)

[oxydoc]

concentrators/generators that use pressure swing adsorption technology should breathe. That means that if there is 2 sieve beds, it should breathe...as the valves switch the compressed air from one sieve bed to the other. Only units I am aware of that you wont hear breathe are the Sequal units, because they have a totally different sieve bed design with a rotating motor on the bottom of it that constantly cycles the air through the parts of the sieve bed, eliminating the breathing noise.

And believe it or not, your generator probably has a holding tank (product tank) of some sort in it, but its probably small...not a 30 gallon tank like you may be thinking of :)
And Justin is absolutely right. The sieve beds have to purge the nitrogen out of the sieve so it can be used again and again. The millennium does this every 8 seconds or so. After air is forced through the sieve and all the nitrogen is trapped, oxygen only is allowed to pass. So it backflushes the sieve bed to blow out the nitrogen. The breathing you hear is this process. The nitrogen passes out of the beds through a muffler. If the muffler was'nt there you would hear a loud gush of air. This process also causes a slight drop in pressure at the higher flow settings causing the fluctuation some have seen. The millennium as most concentrators, do have a small holding tank called a product tank. But it does little to eliminate fluctuation. That is why air will continue to come from the outlet for a while after to unit is shut off. Hope this helps in understanding the breathing, living little monster machine. jack

[KLittle]

Thank you both for the great explanations! It made sense to me that this was to be expected, but knowing the 'why' satisfies my curiousity and validates just what I thought.

This is a great thread and I look forward to watching the future developments with these machines!

Kari

[Mr. Smiley]

Kari... I have two units, so I guess they must be breathing at different times... my flame does not fluctuate at all. Hasn't yet anyway. It's just a steady flow... I got two, so I wouldn't have to push either machine too hard. Brad just got two in yesterday and he is happy as a peacock so far. He said it powered his Phantom beautifully. I can't wait to hear what he has to say about it today after he's had a chance to work on it. :D

[Justin L]

My guess is if your actual flame is fluctuating at higher flow rates when the machine cycles, is that you are exhausting what little oxygen is reserved in the product tank. Once it builds back up in the tank, the flame will get better.

If this is the case, the only solutions are to use the unit at a lower flow rate, or find a way to hook up an auxillary holding tank.

[Mr. Smiley]

With two, I have had zero problems... run smooth as hell. Never any fluctuation. I'm happy so far. :love:

[Justin L]

yeah, Ive only seen people with one machine asking why the flame fluctuates until they turn the flow down. No big deal.

[KLittle]

Thanks for the info, Brent. That is exactly what I was thinking of next .... that two machines hooked together would breathe differently and kinda cancel the effect out.

I am running a Lynx on an Onyx+. The flame doesn't 'look' like it changes with the breathing but I can 'feel' it, if that makes sense. It is certainly not a bother and performs really well. For Boro beads I am running it at ~65% and that seems to be perfect. I just bought a Midrange to work some larger pieces. I can do them on my Lynx but they take a while. So, thought I'd try the Midrange for a wider flame since I know that it should run on one of these units. My preference is to stay with GTT ... I love the flame chemistry ... so I will watch to find out more about how these two machines run a Phantom.

That would be my wish .... to run a Phantom without tanks! Yikes, the cost of a Phantom and another generator, guess I should start saving now!

Just one more question ... I have heard that if you hook up two generators/concentrators that you should stick to the same type of unit for each. What is your take on it Justin, Jack?

Kari

[Justin L]

I think they mean you should stick to around the same PSI so the machines dont "fight" each other and create backflow. I still think this is bogus, too. There are check valves in line in these concentrators to prevent backflow. For example, I take one of my 9PSI concentrators and a 5 PSI concentrator (both are 5 Liter Per Minute, or LPM), and a couple test meters I have here in the shop. The meters read 9PSI, and 10 LPM. Since when you have two concentrators together, the flow (LPM) increases but the pressure doesnt.

With my two 5LPM test machines connected, it reads 10LPM. And since one machine is 9PSI and the other is 5PSI, the pressure gauge reads 9.

Both concentrators continue to operate as they should, without them shutting down due to backpressure/backflow. Maybe if your y connector was made out of tiney tubing that would be a problem....

Hope that makes sense.

[KLittle]

That makes perfect sense. Thank you!

Kari

[jokersdesign]

what kind of guage would you use to read the LPM coming for 2 concentrators?

[kbinkster]

You could use a liter meter to read the output of the T-d concentrators, or, you could add what one machine's LPM gauge reads to what the other machine's LPM gauge reads - you are adding volume to volume. So, if both machines are putting out 10 LPM, you would have a total of 20 LPM. Calculating pressures is another story.

[kbinkster]

BTW, this other thread has become quite interesting and is relevant to this one:
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15519&page=2

Post #58 is particulary intertesting. I wonder if anyone else has any information regarding this.

[Mr. Smiley]

Kimberly... if you have recently bought one of these units and can provide first hand feedback on them, I welcome you to this thread... if not, please go to the other thread and post. This is intended as an end user feedback thread by me... the origionator. Thanks for not hijacking. I normally don't mind it, but I don't want to muddy these waters with speculation. Only first hand knowledge... TY

[kbinkster]

Brent, we have three of these units in the shop right now. I will post our findings when the testing is completed.

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

This is my post from the Melting Pot forum:

Hi all.

Yesterday I recived two Unlimited Oxygen M-20s. I had them hooked up within 20 minutes and gave them a quick test. Last night I spent about 4 hours with them running my Phantom. I will provide a much more thorough critique after this weekend, after I spend some real quality time with them. My first impressions are this:

They run without a hitch. They are quieter than either my AirSep Newlife (5LPM oxycon) or my Companion 590 (5 LPM oxycon). Much more quiet. They are rock steady w.r.t. flow and pressure up to about 8 LPM. Above 8 LPM there is some flow/pressure oscillation. This is evident mostly by the sound of the flame at the torch. The actual flame size really doesn't fluxuate - it's mostly the sound that gives indication of fluxuation. I can not attest to the purity of the Oxy being pumped out by the M-20's since there's no oxy concentration indication. Also, I have not yet worked with any sensitive colors or tried any gold or silver fuming yet so I can't really speak to purity right now.

As far as how well the Phantom performs on two M-20's, that is very subjective and I can only estimate performance in comparison to what I have experience with. Today I spent the day at The Gathering Place in Naperville, ILL in a class with John Olsen. I used my own Phantom and I hooked up to liquid O2 and propane. So, in total, I have about 6 hours of experience on a Phantom with unlimited Oxy flow and pressure. To keep a long story short, I'd estimate the Phantom to be at about 75-80% capacity running off two M-20s set to 8 LPM. I have no reason to think the M-20's won't run full out at 10 LPM reliably. I just have not tried it, yet.

Once I have more time at the torch I will post more information/opinions and some pictures. My initial impression is that the M-20s will be an economical solution to my own personal oxy needs at this time.

Brad

P.S. I do not represent anyone but myself. I do not sell equipment and I am in no way compensated by anyone that does. The information that I post is only my opinion at the time I post. My goal is to provide information which may prove helpfull to fellow glass freaks and the glass artist community in general. I welcome questions and if I've been unclear about something, please ask. Thanks.

And to add: having two oxycons connected does dampen any fluxuations you would see from one oxycon at high flow rates. I've had one M-20 hooked to a Lynx and saw fluxuations at high flow rates above 8 LPM. I hooked up a second smaller capacity oxycon with the M-20 and saw a perfectly constant flow and pressure. Unless the units are perfectly synchronized (which will never happen) they compensate for each other and any fluxuations are dampened nicely. With two M-20's hooked to my Phantom, I see absolutely no fluxuation at the torch nozzle.

[KLittle]

Fantastic! Thanks for the info. I will look forward to hearing more after you have had more of a chance to play around with your new set up. (Like playing with sensitive colors, etc.)

Kari

[Mr. Smiley]

Thise one was my first on the Cuda and 2-M-20 combo... AP is kind of a touchy color, when it comes to haze. It came out perfect and sold right away too. :D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8914521488&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

[jokersdesign]

What’s up with the fluxuations?

I have 4 smaller capacity oxygen concentrators and I only get fluxuation problems on 1 of the units at 5 LPM. My guess is because this was a used unit off ebay and it has a problem with releasing nitrogen when switching from one sleeve bed to the other. The oxygen purity at 5LPM is between the high 80's to low 90's and my other 3 units that don't have fluxuation problems are always at 94-95% purity at 5 LPM.

That’s kind of strange. I don't thing you should be getting fluxuation problems with any concentrator modified or not regardless of what LPM you’re running at.

[Justin L]

product holding tank is too small... might need an auxillary holding tank

[KLittle]

Thise one was my first on the Cuda and 2-M-20 combo... AP is kind of a touchy color, when it comes to haze. It came out perfect and sold right away too. :D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8914521488&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

Ohhhhhh, that is very encouraging!

[beadworkstudio]

I'm running one Piranha on an M-10 and one on a Devilbiss MC64 (both with propane). The torch on the M-10 is definately hotter, but the difference is not huge. I ran a Minor with the M-10, and it was also hotter. Again, not a huge difference, but noticeable.

I work exclusively with soft glass--Lauscha, Moretti, and Uroboros. 96 COE was pretty slow on the Minor/Devilbiss, but it was much easier with the M-10. I only did a simple test, but that was enough for me.

The noise from the M-10 is really not bad. It makes the Devilbiss sound loud, but the noise from that one never really bothered me. It's a small thing, but I really like that the alarm is disabled on the M-10.

I can actually run both Piranhas on the M-10 and get a neutral flame on both, but just barely. I would not recommend trying two torches on one oxy con. At least not on the M-10. You'd have to turn one torch off to get anywhere close to an oxy flame.

So, I'm going to get another M-10, but I have been considering an M-20 instead. I really have no desire to do anything with boro, but I do frequently use 96 COE. Would that be overkill, or would I love it all that much more?

[Mr. Smiley]

Sheila, at some point, more oxygen cools the flame. I'm sure that's why it's hotter, but not a huge difference. Your smaller concentrator almost has enough to get to the top of the hill, but not quite... and if definitely can't give you the cool oxydized flame. This is useful when working a lot of boro colors. You need oxydized ,but cooler, to keep it from boiling. That's really the bennefit of having more oxy flow in the way I work.

If your torch doesn't require the higher pressure, it's not worth getting an M-20. The M-10 has about the same volume... spend the money you will save on glass if you can. ;) :love: Feel free to call me any time. :D

[Mr. Smiley]

Ok, so check this out... I got the Cheetah today and hooked it up. The two M-20's really do a good job of running that torch. It get's good and hot and is easy to get neutral to oxydized settings. The thing is, it definitely doesn't have that push that the tanks provide. Noticeably different heat penetration on the two M-20's. Definitely not the GTT I was used to... so, I'm going to do more experiments. Now that I have a GTT and Beth, I'm going to do some heat tests on concentrators. I know they've been done on tanks, but I think the Beth may be hotter on concentrators. It's just a preliminary guess, but I'm going to have fun with this over the next several months. I am really liking the concentrators. Getting used to them is definitely fun stuff. I'm getting into the groove nicely. I'm liking the colors I'm getting as well. ;)

[kbinkster]

I posted the results GTT obtained in a new thread:
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=397848#post397848

[IF-Designs]

who manifactures the M-10 and M-20 ?

[kbinkster]

who manifactures the M-10 and M-20 ?
South Central Cryogenics/Unlimited Oxygen modifies the Millennium units originally manufactured by Respironics.

[kbinkster]

Ok, so check this out... I got the Cheetah today and hooked it up. The two M-20's really do a good job of running that torch. It get's good and hot and is easy to get neutral to oxydized settings. The thing is, it definitely doesn't have that push that the tanks provide. Noticeably different heat penetration on the two M-20's. Definitely not the GTT I was used to... so, I'm going to do more experiments. Now that I have a GTT and Beth, I'm going to do some heat tests on concentrators. I know they've been done on tanks, but I think the Beth may be hotter on concentrators. It's just a preliminary guess, but I'm going to have fun with this over the next several months. I am really liking the concentrators. Getting used to them is definitely fun stuff. I'm getting into the groove nicely. I'm liking the colors I'm getting as well. ;)
It is interesting that you would require two M-20s to run a Cheetah, and not to full capacity at that, and Pam Dugger is running her Cheetah just fine with one OG20.

I can run my Cheetah with one Integra 10. The Integra 10 is only 9psi at 10 lpm, so it is not running it at full capacity. However, it is enough to work soft glass and small to medium boro easily.

Did you ever take your units to be tested for purity?

[oxydoc]

Hey Brent, glad to hear the M20s are working out for you. Its true that GTT recieved 2 M20s that were not working well. We have been communicating with them to replace the units and recieve the bad ones back for further failure investigation. I guess this proves that we dont doctor our units for field testing.
Our learning curve on these units has been a long one. We hold GTT in very high regard and regret that they recieved less than perfect units. Of course we want their approval and we will try again. We did not discuss a time frame with GTT because we were going to include the new psyclone with the testing. Jean at Nortel is still waiting for units to test as well as several others interested in distribution.
We have had several units damaged during shipping. Sometimes just setting a unit down to hard can shake important parts loose and not show outside the unit. God only knows what these go through during shipping. I have recieved units back where the PC board was shaken loose and hanging down, the regulator broken off, castors shattered, compressors banging against the side. You name it. I will post what I find with these two M 20s.
I think we have had some pretty good reviews so far on this post. We have replaced every unit that anyone has had a problem with. We pay shipping for the replacement. So buying one of these units is risk free. Have patience and keep the faith. We will make everyone proud and happy. jack

[oxydoc]

Brent, By the way, I posted a new pic of the Psyclone II on my profile. Check it out.

[Mr. Smiley]

That unit looks cool, now get one down here. LOL

Kimberly, you have to understand that my full tilt and Pam's full tilt are two totally different things. I can guarantee you don't use 50% of what a triple mix is capable of on bottles with soft glass. Run yours on bottles and actually do some bigger boro work. See what a GTT can really do before you brag about how your concentrator runs one.

[kbinkster]

That unit looks cool, now get one down here. LOL

Kimberly, you have to understand that my full tilt and Pam's full tilt are two totally different things. I can guarantee you don't use 50% of what a triple mix is capable of on bottles with soft glass. Run yours on bottles and actually do some bigger boro work. See what a GTT can really do before you brag about how your concentrator runs one.
Here, read this, again.
I can run my Cheetah with one Integra 10. The Integra 10 is only 9psi at 10 lpm, so it is not running it at full capacity. However, it is enough to work soft glass and small to medium boro easily.

I made it very clear that I am not running the Cheetah at full capacity. I was hardly bragging. That's your department.;) I simply stated the capacity of my concentrator and what I can work with it. No need to get defensive. :)

I mentioned Pam and her OG20 because she had previously posted her results and they were very good.

Anyway, the reason I posted anything at all was because you said that your Cheetah did not have the needed "push" on the two M-20s. Push comes from pressure. Well, 20 psi should be plenty of pressure to not only run the Cheetah, but get top end out of it. Afterall, the manufacturer recommends about 15psi oxygen for the Cheetah. More pressure does not equal better performance. A torch can only do so much before the theory of diminishing returns kicks in. Too much oxygen will cool your flame. It's a balance.

Now, if your purity is not good, then push will not be enough to drive that heat into the glass. You have to have the heat to begin with and good heat comes from pure oxygen. That is why I asked if you had your units tested for purity at those higher pressures (you said earlier that you were going to do that). If you gain pressure, but lose purity, you will be spinning your wheels.

Are you able to drive the flame off the face of the torch? Does it ever blow the flame out?

[CD Lampwork]

Well Deanna did a pretty good job of explaining our problems with our M20s on the other post. Basically we're on our 3rd unit in 3 months. Hopefully 3rd time will be the charm.

But I do have some more fundimental concerns with these units:

1. We've had the opportunity to work with a number of concentrators. They all have small pop out fuses to protect the units from heat, humidity, weird electrical current, etc. These units don't have this part. I'm wondering how much of the unit failures can be tracked to the lack of this pretty inexpensive part.

2. The numbers aren't matching up. This is ABR's discribtion:
http://www.dichroicimagery.com/product_info.php?cPath=93&products_id=3297
The paperwork we got with the unit (3rd unit, the first two had NO paperwork) says: "Oxygen Concentration= 89+/- 4% @1-8
75+/- 4% @8-10
Operating pressure=16-20 Psig
75% seems really low to me on purity. If I would have known that I wouldn't have bought it. Sure, you can run a torch on that, but you have to turn the flame way down. What's the point in that?

3. These aren't really 10 lpm units. Again from the unit paperwork:
"NOTE: Running the unit at highter flow setting for extended periods may cause some flxuation in the flow." This is an understatement as the flame fluxuates from oxidation to reduction every 8 seconds. Makes it a little hard to work.
"If you need to run the flow at the highest setting, it is best lower the flow often to maintain higher levels of purity. For example, if you are using an M20 at a flow setting of 10, drop the flow back to 8 for a few minutes to allow the unit to build purity." The marble I made yesterday took 3 hours. I couldn't really back off the oxygen "often" durring that time.

I've been running ours at 7 1/2-8 with not much trouble, but I do need to keep the propane well down. I'm also scared to try 8-10 lpm as the last two units DIED at those settings. I also get what looks like fuming on my clear (yes, morretti clear) even at 8. It shows up then burns off as the glass reaches full melt. I'm not sure, but I suspect the lower ox. purity is causing this. Could be wrong on this one, but it is strange.

We're making it work. Jerry, Jack and Paul have all been very helpful. And I do see a serious need for a 10 lpm concentrator for under $1,000. But I'd have been much better off getting a second Devibillos (sp?). Our last one ran at 5 lpm at 10 psi for 6 years with no problems. Oh the pop out fuse popped out on occation (just let her cool down, pop it in and away ya go). But that machine was rock solid. Unfortunatly space and amps won't allow multiple consys at this time. Oh and we're using a barracuda torch. Deanna usually just uses the inner flame, I use both.

Peace,
Greg

[Mr. Smiley]

Thanks for sharing your experience Greg... I know you guys have been frustrated to say the least. I got the M-20's to run a Cuda also. I knew before going into it, that I wanted to run them at 7.5-8, to keep the purity up. The Cuda specs call for 20 PSI and a max usage of 1192 LPH (Almost 20 LPM). That is with the knobs wide open and you really don't need the torch to be full tilt. The 15 LPM at good purity is what I was banking on working and it does. Mine doesn't "breath" at all at these settings. It's almost a perfect match on TWO M-20's. One M-20 is just not enough even by the specs to run that torch. I know you guys are limited on what you can plug in... that really sux. I wish there was a single unit to give you guys what you need under a grand, it's just not here yet. Heidi has some biggger generators that she got from some guy in Italy I think. She lives on an island and her purity from these units is awesome. Like 98% or something. She has 3 units and is putting out 60 LPM, so I'm guessing they are 20 LPM each, that's perfect for a Cuda. They're several grand a piece, but this may be a solution for you guys and that traveling torch. PM her and ask about her units. She swears by them. :D :love:

[CD Lampwork]

Umm, no, several grand a piece is WAY out of our price range. Actually at 10 lpm we'd be happy. We're only burning soft glass, so more isn't really needed. And as I said in the above post, if it WERE 10 lpm at 90ish% I'd be really really happy. I mean, hell, that is what's advertised. If I were to do it again I'd go with the Integra. I know it's a lot more, but it actually produces what it advertises. We did get to use Judies when we were at Shawn's a few months ago (integra 10 running a 'cuda). That's what put us on this whole path. The 'cuda with a true 10 lpm is a kick ass torch.

[jokersdesign]

Bethlehem does a really good job of providing customers with their torch specifications.

Barracuda specifications (theses numbers are direct from Bethlehem website and the numbers are rounded to the next whole number).

Gas = 3-5 PSI
Oxygen = 10-20 PSI
Volume = 20 LPM

With these numbers it would seem that regardless if are using an Integra 10 or M20 that only 1 unit would not be enough to power the Barracuda oxygen requirements. You’d only be getting to about 50% torch power with only 1 unit and regardless if your working soft glass or Boro that just doesn’t cut it.

[CD Lampwork]

Well it does for us. Hell I can only run my M20 at 8, so I'm not even up to 1/2 capacity and I can make 1 3/4 inch marbles with ease. And my understanding is JC is also running her 'cuda on 1 M20. And I have run a 'cuda on 1 Integra 10 and it worked much better than the M20. At least according to the advertisments they should be comparable.

We're doing it with one and we're not alone. Sure, I'd love 20 lpm, but that's just not practical at this point (we live in a RV and travel full time). I'm mystified by people insisting I can't do something when I am doing it. Oh, and we work 7 days a week, usually around 8 hours per day. The torch is doing just fine thank you.

Hell, I ran my old national 8 with the 21 tip on 2 5 lpm machines. Wasn't a huge flame, but I made a 2 inch marble with the sucker. It did take most of the day, but that was due to complexity more than lack of heat.

[jokersdesign]

Well it does for us. Hell I can only run my M20 at 8, so I'm not even up to 1/2 capacity and I can make 1 3/4 inch marbles with ease. And my understanding is JC is also running her 'cuda on 1 M20. And I have run a 'cuda on 1 Integra 10 and it worked much better than the M20. At least according to the advertisments they should be comparable.

We're doing it with one and we're not alone. Sure, I'd love 20 lpm, but that's just not practical at this point (we live in a RV and travel full time). I'm mystified by people insisting I can't do something when I am doing it. Oh, and we work 7 days a week, usually around 8 hours per day. The torch is doing just fine thank you.

Hell, I ran my old national 8 with the 21 tip on 2 5 lpm machines. Wasn't a huge flame, but I made a 2 inch marble with the sucker. It did take most of the day, but that was due to complexity more than lack of heat.

Yo that is sweet. How long you been in an RV? I wish I could travel in an RV full time and burn some glass while doing it. That would be like living a dream.

If you got your torch raging with either one M20 and or one Integra 10 and it works for you, then that's all that matters.

I have not used a M20 or Integra 10 connected to a Barracuda, but I have tried a Barracuda with 2 devilbiss concentrators which would give me equal to what the Integra 10 or M20 would output and I was not happy with the results. I then connected a 3rd newlife conncentrator for a toal of 15 LPM @ 9 psi with 94% oxygen purity and the result was good enough for me to use it inplace of tanked oxygen even though there is still a big difference compared to the tanked oxygen, but it works good enough.

But I do think if I had 20 LPM and close to 20 psi the results would be as close to tanked oxygen as one could get. I also think if I started using the barracuda on concentrators first, then I would of been happy with 10 LPM.

But yo, I agree with you that those units should work as advertised. I think any oxygen generating system should output 94-95% oxygen at it maximum output or else the unit should outlet less to meet the 94-95% oxygen. I would not use any system below 94% oxygen on any output setting. If their units only output 75% oxygen at 10 LPM then they should only be advertised as 1-8 LPM concentrators and not 1-10 LPM concentrators.

[Mr. Smiley]

Greg, I'm certainly not saying you can't run the Cuda on less. I'm just a boro guy and need the power. Now, Lori Robbins defies all logic and runs her Cuda on 2 5LPM machines and works boro... go figure. I guess it's all in how you work (style) and what you can find to fit your needs. ;)

I looked at getting two of these units instead of an Integra, because of the added PSI and the added volume. Even at 75%, two of these units have 50% more volume than the Integra and 10 more PSI. They aren't much more money for two of these. Price wise, it is worth the risk for me to support a new company through their trials and tribulations. I look at this as research and supporting somebody pushing the limits where I need them pushed. Being a boro worker really sucks when you look at supplying your torch with Oxy. I'm behind anybody that will make that easier. That's why my heart is in this. Boro workers need an easy and affordable source of oxy. Soft glass folks have had it for a while now. :love:

[Kalera]

Greg, I'm certainly not saying you can't run the Cuda on less. I'm just a boro guy and need the power. Now, Lori Robbins defies all logic and runs her Cuda on 2 5LPM machines and works boro... go figure. I guess it's all in how you work (style) and what you can find to fit your needs. ;)

I looked at getting two of these units instead of an Integra, because of the added PSI and the added volume. Even at 75%, two of these units have 50% more volume than the Integra and 10 more PSI. They aren't much more money for two of these. Price wise, it is worth the risk for me to support a new company through their trials and tribulations. I look at this as research and supporting somebody pushing the limits where I need them pushed. Being a boro worker really sucks when you look at supplying your torch with Oxy. I'm behind anybody that will make that easier. That's why my heart is in this. Boro workers need an easy and affordable source of oxy. Soft glass folks have had it for a while now. :love:


Until I got my M-20, I was running my Barracuda on 2 5LPM concentrators, working boro, and the performance was very similar to what I'm getting with the M-20. Also, it "breathes" with a very loud, abrupt "whoosh" every few seconds. Should I be concerned about this?

[CD Lampwork]

Yep, absolutly right both of you.

I started out with a 5 lpm consy and a national 8 w/7 tip. So a cuda and 10 lpm felt like a huge step up. I'm sure if I'd a gone the other way: tanks down to 10 lpm consy, there's no way I would have been satisfied.

And as I said before, there is a real need for a 10 lpm unit for under 1000 dollars. So I whole heartedly support a company trying to fill the need. My problem here is, well, pretty much false advertising. The online retailers pages say 90%+ at 10 lpm, and the paperwork with the consy is 75% and not really doable at 10 lpm that's one sizable difference.

And this is my buisness. We don't have another source of income. So upgrading was a big move for us. And, ya, it's working out, but we have been down 3 weeks in the last 3 months due to equipment failure with these M20s. But as I said before, these guys have been very helpful. We're really trying to give them the benifit of the doubt. But as Deanna said in the other thread, we really can't afford to replace these within the next year.

Truthfully, these things just don't seem that complicated. A circuit board, a couple of sieve beds, some valves and a compressor. I'm mean dang, I can almost figure out how to build a kick ass concentrator. Ok, probably not, but a few relatively cheap upgrades/modifications might help a lot.

[CD Lampwork]

Until I got my M-20, I was running my Barracuda on 2 5LPM concentrators, working boro, and the performance was very similar to what I'm getting with the M-20. Also, it "breathes" with a very loud, abrupt "whoosh" every few seconds. Should I be concerned about this?

Hi Kalera you cutie you,

Nope, not to worry. It should breath. Out then in. It gives a little overlap between the two sieve beds. Our first failure M20 went the other way: in then out. So there was like 1/2 sec with no ox flowing. Really wigged out the flame. And you should hear 2 (out AND in), our 2nd failure was one of the sieve bed valves gave out so it was trying to opporate on 1 bed, the other was wide open blowing forced air threw the torch.....yuck!

So long as your flame looks good the consy's probably fine.

Greg

[CD Lampwork]

Yo that is sweet. How long you been in an RV? I wish I could travel in an RV full time and burn some glass while doing it. That would be like living a dream.



Yea, full time RVing is just totally awsome. We've been free for 3 years now. We did work campground jobs the first 2 years and only made beads 1/2 time or maybe a little better. Now it's our only source of income. We've gotten to meet some wonderful lampworkers, stayed a summer in Maine eating lobster once a week, spent a winter on the Pesicola shoreline drinking margarettas and spashing in the water, it was like 70 in Nov, hung out in Point Reyes north of San Fransisco visiting friends and family. Starting next week we're headed to Colorado for a month, then Montana for a month, Washington for a month, Oregon for a couple of months, then we just don't know, pretty much whichever way the wind blows.

Awww freedom!

Peace,
Greg

[Justin L]

I'm mean dang, I can almost figure out how to build a kick ass concentrator. Ok, probably not, but a few relatively cheap upgrades/modifications might help a lot.

I believe thats already been tried :lol:

[kbinkster]

Price wise, it is worth the risk for me to support a new company through their trials and tribulations. I look at this as research and supporting somebody pushing the limits where I need them pushed.

Typically, though, companies pay for their own R&D, not the consumers. I believe it is reasonable for consumers to get a product whose bugs have already been worked out. Buying a piece of equipment should not be a hit or miss gamble. You may be willing to take that risk, but other people may not be. They should be completely informed, first. And then, if they choose to gamble, they can.

I also believe that it is reasonable for a consumer to get a product that performs as advertised.

Look, I am all for innovations. I want there to be a machine that can produce all the oxygen we want at the pressures we need. I just don't think that the cost of development should be shouldered by the consumer, especially when the consumer doesn't know it.

I take no pleasure in hearing bad reports about these units. I was hoping that the three bad units GTT received was a fluke. We wanted to be able to sell these units, afterall.

I also find it in bad taste to gloat over any reported failures - of any company. I have never gloated over any problems people were having with their torches made by a competitor of GTT. Instead, I offered whatever help I could and suggested they contact the manufacturer and provided examples of how that company successfully resolved its problems. Heck, when asked where one of these torches could be purchased, I gave a recommendation (it was someone I had done business with in the past and found to be helpful on the boards). I will continue to do this, even though I have been personally threatened by someone (you know who you are) to not offer any more help. The bottom line is that we are all in this industry together and our common goal should be to help lampworkers by offering quality solutions to their problems - not by bashing the competition.

[Kalera]

Thanks Greg! When you guys are in Oregon, you should come visit me!

Hi Kalera you cutie you,

Nope, not to worry. It should breath. Out then in. It gives a little overlap between the two sieve beds. Our first failure M20 went the other way: in then out. So there was like 1/2 sec with no ox flowing. Really wigged out the flame. And you should hear 2 (out AND in), our 2nd failure was one of the sieve bed valves gave out so it was trying to opporate on 1 bed, the other was wide open blowing forced air threw the torch.....yuck!

So long as your flame looks good the consy's probably fine.

Greg

[oxydoc]

Until I got my M-20, I was running my Barracuda on 2 5LPM concentrators, working boro, and the performance was very similar to what I'm getting with the M-20. Also, it "breathes" with a very loud, abrupt "whoosh" every few seconds. Should I be concerned about this?
Hello, sounds to me like your unit may have been another victim of shipping abuse. The "breathing" should very barely audible. If you get a chance soon, turn your unit over on its back and see if the plastic base is crackled or caved in. Sounds like the muffler has been broken off. We will be happy to fix it or replace it for you. We will pay your shipping if interested. jack

[jokersdesign]

yo Jack/oxydoc,

That picture of the Psyclone II looks great. I can't wait unitl it's available. Got any idea when the distributors will offer them for slae?

Robert

[Larry LaClair]

And this is my buisness. We don't have another source of income. So upgrading was a big move for us. And, ya, it's working out, but we have been down 3 weeks in the last 3 months due to equipment failure with these M20s. But as I said before, these guys have been very helpful. We're really trying to give them the benifit of the doubt. But as Deanna said in the other thread, we really can't afford to replace these within the next year.

](*,) I have tried to put the word out on this equipment for exactly this reason. Whatever concentrator that these guys tamper with M 20. P 20,
Cyclone Etc. they Will all fail on you. You can keep renaming the darn thing but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well you know the rest !!

In order for the unit to run properly for torch use you need High Purity, Good Flow Rate, Good output Pressure.

They are tampering with equipment, sending it to you as the test market and blaming all of their troubles on shipping problems.

Well here is someone who was lucky enough to get 3 months out of his unit before it failed. Good thing he was within the embarassing 6 month warranty period.
Three weeks out of work with no other income. How do you put a price on that ???

I have put up information to warn everyone about big problems about these units. I hope people will take me seriously now.
I will be glad to answer anyones questions about any concentrator whether it be one of ours, or our competitors truthfully.

While there are people out there that will sell you any old piece of junk with little or no warranty. Don't you think that after 26 years in business that we have already performed all of this testing ?? We have, and we DO know what works and what doesn't work, and we know why it doesn't work and why it is not safe

We truly do care about what people are using and your safety.
You can buy what ever you want, after all it is your money.

I am putting up the RED FLAG so you do not get yourself a " Trogen Horse "
by some slick " Snake Oil Salesman "

Keep The Posts coming in.

Don't be " Hatin Me " for reporting the Truth !!! ](*,)

[CD Lampwork]

Ummm Larry? I appreciate your input on the matter. But please do NOT use ME to bash THEM. OK? As I said, they seem to be really good guys. They have shipped out 2 new concentrators when the first 2 died really without question. And all the shipping has been on them. Really, Jerry, Jack and Paul have all been really stand up guys. I would never call them "snake oil salesmen"! In fact I really think they may be loosing money on my purchase. I mean shipping alone on these units is supstantial. And as Deanna said in her post in the other thread, the first 2 did come damaged in shipping. I'm all for giving them the benifit of the doubt.

I just have questions/concerns which I listed above. And I am a bit confused as to what they actually do to these machines. The original respironics millenium M10 should perform as advertised:
http://millennium10.respironics.com/Specifications.asp

Really, other than removing the sensors and lableing these units as not for medical use, I'm not sure what's done to them. I would hope reconditioning the sieve beds and checking out the parts, but it doesn't look like there's really any supstantal modifications.

Peace my brothers and sisters,
Greg

[oxydoc]

yo Jack/oxydoc,

That picture of the Psyclone II looks great. I can't wait unitl it's available. Got any idea when the distributors will offer them for slae?

Robert
Hey Robert, The first 3 go out in the late part of next week. We have lined up good reputable people along with some torch manufacturers, to test these units and tell us which torches they are compatible with. Thanks for your interest and I will certainly keep you informed. jack

[Mr. Smiley]

](*,) I have tried to put the word out on this equipment for exactly this reason. Whatever concentrator that these guys tamper with M 20. P 20,
Cyclone Etc. they Will all fail on you. You can keep renaming the darn thing but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well you know the rest !!

In order for the unit to run properly for torch use you need High Purity, Good Flow Rate, Good output Pressure.

They are tampering with equipment, sending it to you as the test market and blaming all of their troubles on shipping problems.

Well here is someone who was lucky enough to get 3 months out of his unit before it failed. Good thing he was within the embarassing 6 month warranty period.
Three weeks out of work with no other income. How do you put a price on that ???

I have put up information to warn everyone about big problems about these units. I hope people will take me seriously now.
I will be glad to answer anyones questions about any concentrator whether it be one of ours, or our competitors truthfully.

While there are people out there that will sell you any old piece of junk with little or no warranty. Don't you think that after 26 years in business that we have already performed all of this testing ?? We have, and we DO know what works and what doesn't work, and we know why it doesn't work and why it is not safe

We truly do care about what people are using and your safety.
You can buy what ever you want, after all it is your money.

I am putting up the RED FLAG so you do not get yourself a " Trogen Horse "
by some slick " Snake Oil Salesman "

Keep The Posts coming in.

Don't be " Hatin Me " for reporting the Truth !!! ](*,)


Larry, you sell these exact same Millenium 5 lpm units with a 5 year warranty. Not modified, but if you keep up this out right bad mouthing, you are going to look bad. Maybe you're just a grumpy old man that should hold back off on voicing his opinion so harshly. The units I have are performing flawlessly. I really like them. Time will tell how long they hold up, but I have been assured by the manufacturer that they stand behind these units. So far, they have with others, so I have zero anxiety over it. I know you have some great 5 year warranty, but you aren't doing a damn thing to the units to improve them to the level some of us need. Stop being a crotchety old geezer and see what these do over time. Your bad attitude is really going to lose you some business. I definitely won't ever suggest you guys if somebody needs a 5 LPM machine and I get asked a LOT. There's too many other companies offering the exact same units. Watch your words and how you represent your business... it's not nice and will cost you money. If you have doubts, fine... express them as doubts. Debate it on hard facts if you have them... you have so much experience in this feild, I think you could make your point without calling names. ;) :love:

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

Just wanted to take a moment to add my two cents and relay my experience with my two M-20s.

I ordered my two M-20s a couple weeks ago and they arrived quickly. From the time that Unlimited Oxygen received my order until they were delivered to my doorstep, less than 48 hours had passed. Getting them so quickly was a pleasant surprise.

When I openned the boxed I found that one of the M-20s had a broken caster - obviously it happened during shipping (DHL). There was several plastic bits of wheel at the bottom of the box. Concerned that they may have been damaged during shipping I waisted no time in hooking them up and turning them on. They started up and operated with no problem. I contacted Jack via PM and told him the about the damage and he promptly shipped me four replacement wheels. I told him I only needed one and he said he shipped four of different sizes to be sure I would get the correct size - way above and beyond what I expected.

I've been using my M-20s as much as possible. I've probably used them for 60 to 80 hours now and can report 100% flawless operation. They perform exactly as they should. I've made marbles, lots of beads, fumed silver and gold, and done some I/O beads. From what I can tell, the O2 purity (based on color results and fuming) is better than before (when I was using one Companion 590 and an AirSep NewLife). I have no complaints, but rather a big thumbs up for Unlimited Oxygen and my M-20s.

Regarding the mudslinging and name calling that's been going on, I've purposely stayed out of it. I think some of those involved have revealed their intentions, motivations, and lack of professionalism perfectly well without me being involved.

If anyone is interested in an M-20 for their particular application, I invite them to do the research and ask questions. I can lend an educated and informed opinion based on my experience with them. Having laid down a large sum of money, I would have been the first to scream foul if the systems were bogus. My experience has been quite the opposite. So, got questions? Bring it on!

Brad

[Mr. Smiley]

Rock on Brad! I am so stoked to hear your story. I've been away teaching and haven't been able to run these units as much as you, but I'm on a mission today. :D :lol: :D

[Mr. Smiley]

Just worked for 5 hours straight... not a single burp or problem. Made a crap load of beads. Can't wait to open the kiln... :D

[KLittle]

Brad - That is very encouraging news! Am I correct that you are running a Phantom on two if these machines? Do you have one machine hooked up to the Lynx centre fire and one hooked up to the outer fire? or is it the two stud version and you have both machines hooked up with a Y connector?

I just bought a Midrange to get a larger flame but yet be able to run it on my Onyx+. It certainly works but I am so used to the clean flame on my Lynx that my preference would be to upgrade to a Phantom for a larger flame .... but I won't go back to having tanks. HOWEVER, if two M-20s can give me what I want then I'd be a happy flameworker!

Kari

[Mr. Smiley]

Brad is running the Phantom. I've got a Cuda and a Cheetah. Very happy with how they run both. I'm working on the Cuda right now... I just think it gets hotter on this oxy supply than the Cheetah. I have yet to do much testing though. The flame is that nice bright blue neutral that is smoking hot. It's really a dream to work on. If anybody has any lingering concerns, I'd suggest waiting and paying attention to this thread. I know there have been some issues, but I'm confident the company is on the home stretch with these units. I'm very happy so far. ;)

[Mr. Smiley]

Oh yeah and I forgot to add... I do have a flashback arrestor in line with them. There was another thread where Oxyplus told a customer it would drop the pressure by 2-3 PSI. I'm not sure if that's true, but I'm going to remove it and see if they perform even better. ;)

[Justin L]

even if it doesnt drop the pressure in your case (since you're using a completely different setup) you dont need need to use them in line anyway.

[kbinkster]

even if it doesnt drop the pressure in your case (since you're using a completely different setup) you dont need need to use them in line anyway.
Well, it is usually the oxygen line that burns. If someone feels safer using a FA, I certainly wouldn't discourage them from doing so, even though surface mix torches generally do not flash back. If there is ever any premixing, there is the possibility of a flashback. Better safe than sorry.

I think you need to evaluate your entire set-up and assess your risk before dismissing the notion of using a FA. That being said, I do not use a FA with my concentrator.

I have never heard of a torch flashing back on a concentrator. It's not that a concentrator prevents flashback. It is because most torches used with a concentrator are surface mix torches and they rarely flash back. I have definitely heard of some surface mix torches flashing back, but they were on tanks, as the vast majority of torches out there are. Anyway, on a concentrator, the pressure is relatively low, so there isn't much to push anything away from the unit. I don't know what kind of damage a flashback could do to a concentrator, but I wouldn't want it to happen to mine.

FAs can cause a drop in line pressure, but there are other things that can do that, too.

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

Kari,

Yes, I am running a Phantom with my two M20s.

My Phantom is a 4 stud - split manifold, but the two oxy studs are connected via a hose 'T' and the two propane studs are connected via another 'T'. So, basically it is set up like a two stud model. My two M20s are connected with a 'Y' hose from Paula (Suncoast).

My Phantom came set up this way and this works great for me because of the way I work now and the way I will prolly work in the future. Right now I work maybe 80% with the inner (Lynx) fire to do very detailed/prescision/smaller work. When I'm working with the inner ring only, I run the M20s at about 5 to 6 LPM each. When I need a big fire I open the outer ring and crank up the M20s to 8 or 9 LPM. This gives me enuf heat to make a big Maria quickly or melt/condense a big I/O bead.

Like I said before, the two M20s on a Phantom provide enuf heat for what I do now. In the future I know I'll be needing a larger, driving flame and there is just no substitute for liquid or compressed oxy. So when that time comes, I'll already have the torch I need. I'll just connect the M20s to the inner fire and run the outer fire with liquid Oxy through a foot pedal. I think that's the ideal setup.

BRad

[kbinkster]

Brad, have you tried running the center on one M20 and the outer on the other?

When we ran the Millenium 10 Custom (now called the M20) at the Gathering (open torch), one unit ran the centerfire of a Phantom at full capacity. It ran both the outer and inner fire at full blast for a very short time, then had no problem running the center at full capacity after that.

Because one unit did such a good job running the centerfire, I thought that running one on the center and one on the outer would be possible - that if it couldn't run the outer at 100%, it could at least get 85% out of it. Willy agreed. That is why they got two M20s to test back at the shop. The M10 was to be tested on the Bobcat.

[Mike]

I recently picked up a Devilbiss MC82 unit. I think its not producing much in the way of O2. Or at least, some of my clear bullseye is foggy.

Any impressions on this unit?


Cheers Mike

[Larry LaClair]

Larry, you sell these exact same Millenium 5 lpm units with a 5 year warranty. Not modified, but if you keep up this out right bad mouthing, you are going to look bad. Maybe you're just a grumpy old man that should hold back off on voicing his opinion so harshly. The units I have are performing flawlessly. I really like them. Time will tell how long they hold up, but I have been assured by the manufacturer that they stand behind these units. So far, they have with others, so I have zero anxiety over it. I know you have some great 5 year warranty, but you aren't doing a damn thing to the units to improve them to the level some of us need. Stop being a crotchety old geezer and see what these do over time. Your bad attitude is really going to lose you some business. I definitely won't ever suggest you guys if somebody needs a 5 LPM machine and I get asked a LOT. There's too many other companies offering the exact same units. Watch your words and how you represent your business... it's not nice and will cost you money. If you have doubts, fine... express them as doubts. Debate it on hard facts if you have them... you have so much experience in this feild, I think you could make your point without calling names. ;) :love:
Good Evening Mr. Smiley,

I am extremely sorry if you have taken offense at my trying to be honest and warn people in the beadmaking community about getting stuck with these machines. If you have ever taken the time to call me or talk to anyone who knows me or this business you would probably be suprised to know that we are highly respected as an oxygen supplier and are held in high regard.

I have little tolerance for people who try to bait me into trivial arguements regarding oxygen systems as you obviously seem to like to do.

We feel that we set the Highest Standard for our equipment and services which other companies do not even come close to offering. Wonder why that is ? Think about it !!

We feel that our 5 year warranty should be a minimum standard for our customers, no matter if it is for medical practices, fish farming, ozone / health purposes, beadmaking, etc.

It shows that OxygenPlus offers commitment, character, integrity, credibility and support ALL of our customers no matter what application our equipment is chosen to be used for.

We take care of our customers for five years so they can run and focus on their business &/or hobbie and not worry about the oxygen concentrator.


OxygenPlus Medical Systems is a Business who cares what customers end up with and not a "crotchety old Geezer" with an attitude ( I am 50 years young ).

OxygenPlus Medical Systems is a strong 26 year old family oriented company ( Yes, there are still some around ) that delivers " Good Ole Fashion " customer service.

I have always told my son Justin to always watch out for the guy that worries about YOUR money !! You do not really need to worry about my attitude, business, money, etc.

You should be worrying about getting these boys to provide some credibility to there machines CLAIMS Since they refuse to offer any data specification on there concentrator, by offering at least a 1 or 2 year warranty on their equipment to do justice to the beadmakers who have to scrimp and save to buy a concentrator !

The only way they can stand behind there equipment and alleged Claims is to take responsibility in one of two ways. Provide a Data Specification sheet which has been requested to support there claims, or stand behind there machines modification / tampering with a real warranty which will make the purchaser know they are dealing with a reputable person. Otherwise you would be better off taking your chances on e-bay.

I have no hidden agenda as I am sure you worry about also. I assume that you know that we deal with 5 LPM oxygen systems that beadmakers use for soft glass usually not exceed a minor burner. You and your freinds represent no problem for me as you are dealing with an entirely different piece of equipment.

I am not receiving any kickbacks to sell or market their M-10, M-20, Cyclone
or any other name that it gets called.


COLD HARD FACTS YOU REQUESTED

We were hired by a consulting firm years ago to see if it were possible to beef up concentrators to get more out of them, finally after months of research the conclusion was that it could not be done effectively for a very long period of time as the system, sieve materiel would not withstand the wide variations of flows and being out of tolerance. Purity issuses were ALWAYS a major problem at the maximun flowrates because the machines product holding tank would empty out within minutes resulting in flame fluctuation because of purity fluctuation.
It does not take an "Einstein" to figure out that if you are emtying out the concentrator oxygen holding tank faster than you are filling it that you are going to run out. Depending on variables like glass, torch type, etc. the time the unit will empty the oxygen product holding tank will vary but rest assured it will empty itself at 9 or 10 LPM. When you are told to reduce the flowmeter out put down to 8 lpm or below. That should be a red flag.
If a unit is sold as a 10 lpm unit then by Golly, don't you think it should perform at 10 LPM. Anyone who bys these units should run them @ 10 lpm and observe there flame. The flame should be the same no matter what setting that it is at from 1 LPM all the way to 10 LPM
The systems are not designed to operate at these pressures safely and will
have issues.


You should be also asking yourself that if these guys are tampering with a piece of manufactures Medical equipment ( Respironics ) are they or their products FDA approved ?? probably not !!
If they are making there own piece of equipment are they following safe manufacturers practices !! Probably not !!

I have asked them to display their concentrator units specifications 2 or 3 weeks ago, as well as some other beadmakers and to date have been totally
blown off - and yet you keep challenging my credentials.:koolaid:

We have never proclaimed to be experts in beadmaking or lampworking.

We try to help people do it better.

We are not trying to reinvent the wheel at others expense by Selling bogus equipment to be tested by the consumer at there home or business.

But make no mistake, we are industry experts on all models of oxygen concentrator systems

This Grumpy crotchety old geezer is now going to stay out of this thread. I feel I have made my point. People will come to there own conclusions soon enough. :waving:

Watch for our upcoming Easter April Specials.

Artisains from then beadmaking community that wish to make inquiries can reach us at 1.540.586.9051 or visit our website @ www.oxygenplusmedical.com

I would like to personally thank everyone for the outstanding support you have shown us over the years. It truly has been a great experience.

Respectfully,
Larry LaClair - President / CEO
OxygenPlus Medical Systems Inc.
1.540.586.9051
www.oxygenplusmedical.com
www.oxygenplusmedical.com/referral.html

[Kalera]

Hello, sounds to me like your unit may have been another victim of shipping abuse. The "breathing" should very barely audible. If you get a chance soon, turn your unit over on its back and see if the plastic base is crackled or caved in. Sounds like the muffler has been broken off. We will be happy to fix it or replace it for you. We will pay your shipping if interested. jack

Thank you, Jack! The box did have some shipping damage, no visible damage on the machine but I was concerned about how loud the breathing is! Is this something I can fix myself? I'd hate to send it away... I have it teamed up with an old medical concentrator for a little extra kick, and I'm really happy with the combination.

[kbinkster]

Here are the stats on the Psyclone I and Psyclone II, in case anyone is interested (Brad's post, #3):
http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?p=54873#post54873

Has anyone here tested one of these bigger units, yet?

I believe Greg already posted some specs for the M-20.

EDIT:
Here is a copy of what was discussed on that thread I referrenced, in case you cannot access it.


The Melting Pot - Where All Glass Addicts Melt Together (http://www.thegldg.com/forum/index.php)
- Miscellaneous Topics (http://www.thegldg.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
- - Cyclone 2 oxygen generator 50 lpm? (http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5455)

Itzallmyne 04-05-2006 06:23 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cyclone 2 oxygen generator 50 lpm?

Ok, got my new Glass Line issue today, in new product announcement there is a blurb about Glasscraft carrying 2 new larger Unlimited Oxygen generators

Cyclone 1- 20 liters per min (42.37 SCFH) of oxy at 20 lbs per sq inch-will power Nortel Mid-Range, Barracuda, Carlisle Wildcat or a GTT Phantom

Cyclone 2 -50 liters per min (105.93 SCFH) at up to 30 lb psi, will power Red Max, Beth Tiger Shark, Carlisle CC Burner or GTT Mirage- or it can power 2 mid-size or several small torches.

Anyone know about these? I wanted to call Glasscraft but they are closed, I guess I'll call them tomorrow, unless anyone knows about these generators.. Are these the ones Mr. Smiley was talking about?

Sounds too good to be true.....


Marilyn


Firekist 04-05-2006 08:40 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Cyclone 2 oxygen generator 50 lpm?

i don't know about too good to be true.. aren't there price tags associated with them? (might have to buy a compressor as well)

why can't they get a higher delivery pressure.. 30's kinda weak.

let us know what they say =-)

z---seth


Anakin's Glass Eye 04-06-2006 02:27 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Cyclone 2 oxygen generator 50 lpm?

I recently bought two M-20s to power my Phantom. The owners manual that came with them includes specs on the new Psychlone I and II. Here's the specs according to the Owners Manual:

Psyclone I
Oxygen Concentration
89% +/-4% at 1-15 LPM
79% +/-4% at 16-20 LPM
Weight 100 lbs
Dimensions 24x15x17 inches
Operating Pressure 18-20 psig


Psyclone II
Oxygen Concentration
89% +/-4% at 1-30 LPM
79% +/-4% at 31-50 LPM
Weight 100 lbs
Dimensions 24x15x17 inches
Operating Pressure 40 psig

According to information I previously recieved, there are several units in the field being tested by real people so this is not a new imaginary piece of equipment. But don't quote me on that. My memory plays tricks on me sometimes.

I've not seen a price yet for the units.

Hope this helps somewhat.

Brad


chuckworks 04-06-2006 09:25 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Cyclone 2 oxygen generator 50 lpm?

but 79% is crap, or am i wrong? maybe its like working on a torch with air



jokersdesign 04-06-2006 11:01 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Cyclone 2 oxygen generator 50 lpm?

Quote: (Originally Posted by chuckworks)but 79% is crap, or am i wrong? maybe its like working on a torch with air


Yeah that is what I thought. I would not want to use anything < 90% oxygen and it would be even better if it was 94-95% oxygen.

I was excited about these units until I saw the specs

[Mr. Smiley]

:lol: Larry, that may be a record for longest post evah! :lol:

[oxydoc]

Thank you, Jack! The box did have some shipping damage, no visible damage on the machine but I was concerned about how loud the breathing is! Is this something I can fix myself? I'd hate to send it away... I have it teamed up with an old medical concentrator for a little extra kick, and I'm really happy with the combination.
Hey Kalera, Call me at the shop monday thru friday 317-831-2045. I think I may be able to talk you thru a repair. If not, I can switch it out for you and you wont miss a beat. jack

[oxydoc]

The PSYCLONE has been tested by Ross at ABR and I believe he is posting the results on his website. He seemed pleased with the performance but did state that the unit was loud. I agree with him. That is something I may need to improve on. The specs are much better than early testing and I will post them on Monday. This week it goes to Art Glass House for testing. I will let you know where to find the results for each test. Our distributors set the retail price so I still dont know what it will be. I will post more as I can .jack

[Mr. Smiley]

Jack, let me know when you'll be at AGH. I'd love to meet you guys there and see the new unit in action, if my schedule allows. :D I'm excited! :lol:

[oxydoc]

Jack, let me know when you'll be at AGH. I'd love to meet you guys there and see the new unit in action, if my schedule allows. :D I'm excited! :lol:
Hey Brent, sure will. I probably wont go myself, far to busy. But my brother Paul and our new sales person will be there. You are quite welcome. jack\\:D/

[Kalera]

Hey Kalera, Call me at the shop monday thru friday 317-831-2045. I think I may be able to talk you thru a repair. If not, I can switch it out for you and you wont miss a beat. jack


Thanks, Jack!

[Kalera]

You should be also asking yourself that if these guys are tampering with a piece of manufactures Medical equipment ( Respironics ) are they or their products FDA approved ?? probably not !!

Larry, I'm curious as to why you think the FDA should approve craft/hobby supplies? They are no longer medical concentrators after they've been modified.

[Lynn Burgess]

I am thinking about purchasing a Bullet Burner by N M Knight. I was wondering if anyone new how it compared to a Barracuda and whether or not it will run off of 2 m20's. Your input would be greatly appreciated. ( I have already been told the Barracuda will work.)

Lynn

[Rimfeld]

Mr. Simley,

now that everyone has all you special borro colors and are hooked. I would like to know if you have every had to to try the Cheetah on the two M-20. I have seen a few other take on how to run a Cheetah on less but I trust you opinion about getting the most from the Cheetah with boro not softglass my current setup to do soft glass is fine just takes way too long for boro.

Please help
Robin

[oxydoc]

Here are the latest specs on the Psyclone I:
Outlet pressure 20 psi
Flow 0 to 20 lpm
Purity per setting:
5 lpm-94% +/- 5%
10 lpm-94% +/- 5%
15 lpm-94% +/- 5%
20 lpm-90% +/- 5%

Psyclone II (air assisted):
Outlet pressure 20 psi
5 lpm-94% +/- 5%
10 lpm-94% +/- 5%
15 lpm-94% +/- 5%
20 lpm-94% +/- 5%
25 lpm-90% +/- 5%
30 lpm-85% +/- 5%

I & II tied together (Y'ed)
40 lpm-90% +/- 5%
50 lpm-90% +/- 5%
So there you have it. The +/- is depending on humidity, moisture, altitude ect..
[-o<
jack

[Mr. Smiley]

Mr. Simley,

now that everyone has all you special borro colors and are hooked. I would like to know if you have every had to to try the Cheetah on the two M-20. I have seen a few other take on how to run a Cheetah on less but I trust you opinion about getting the most from the Cheetah with boro not softglass my current setup to do soft glass is fine just takes way too long for boro.

Please help
Robin

I love how they run my Cheetah. I keep meaning to post pics of the flames I'm getting, but life is getting in the way. ;)

[Larry LaClair]

Re: Unlimited Oxygen Concentrator customer response ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I purchased a P-10 which arrived as an M-10 this past December for my MiniCC. When it arrived I realized that it is basically a rebuilt Respironics. Originally the business that I purchased it from recommended running it above the redline on the dial. After lots of following of threads on various forums, I've gone back to running it below the redline on the dial as it sounded like I was shortening the life of the concentrator.

Here are my conclusions: I'm now considering buying a 2nd concentrator. Most of the recommendations for the MiniCC are for 2 5LPM concentrators. I thought by purchasing the P-10/M-10 that I could get by on one. However, now I'm concerned that I'm running the concentrator well past its capacity. There is a tremendous amount of discussion on Lampwork Etc. that you might find interesting if you are considering this model. I'm thinking that a 2nd concentrator would make me happier with the performance of the torch and serve as a back-up if the P-10/M-10 should give out.

I haven't listened to other concentrators but I would say that unless you are working in a very small space, the concentrator is not excessively loud. I'm still designing my ventilation system and at the moment I'm using a multi-fan set-up and the fans are several times louder than the concentrator.

I guess that most times the bottom line question is -- would you buy the P10/M10 again? I am reasonably certain that if I could back the clock up to last December, I would not make the same choice -- I definitely wish I'd picked a different concentrator solution. I will add it's not because I can point to any particular problems but just because I felt that I was sold something that I felt was supposed to perform at a higher level and should really just be compared to any other 5LPM medical concentrator on the market.

Good luck with your decisions and look for a good warranty !!

[Mr. Smiley]

Well, my two M-20's put out a lot more than any other medical concentrators could. They are still humming away! This is an update after months and months of regular use. If I could go back in time, I'd have bought them SOONER! :lol: I am so glad I took the leap of faith and got these units. Like every piece of equipment in our industry, it will fit some better than others. If this is the worst bit of negative propoganda Larry can find to post about his competition... the new M-10'2 and M-20's must be relatively problem free now. :D I'm happy happy happy with my investment. :love:

[suncoastbeads]

Thank you Justin, for explaining the differences between the Integra 10 (Sequal) and other 2 seive systems. That is why the Integra 10 does just what it does...delivers steady oxy flow as long as you have it turned on...NO BREATHING which means NO FLUCTUATION IN FLAME.

Paulette

[Firelilly]

I use a P-10 or M-10 or whatever the heck you want to call it and it has always produced a steady oxy flow without a breathing that caused a fluctuation in the strength or consistancy of the flame. Or should I say NO BREATHING and NO FLUCTUATION IN FLAME? :roll:

I've been using it for over a year now without any problems whatsoever. It performed as well yesterday as it did the first day I hooked it up over a year ago. That is to say, it works perfectly fine for working soft glass, which is what I bought it for. I'm not sure what else I should expect it to do for me before the higher priced competitors of this product might agree that I did alright with my purchase.

As someone who, compared to many here on LE, is still quite new to melting glass I have to say this is one of the silliest threads I've seen on these boards. Honestly, I would go out of my way to not buy from those in this thread who have made such an effort to trash their competition.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I hadn't seen with my own eyes that the M-10 does exactly what I was promised it would do and for a significantly lower price than other machines meant to offer the same thing. But as it stands I know that I made a perfectly fine purchase and you ungracious trash talkers just look rediculous to me.

Lil

[oxydoc]

Well, my two M-20's put out a lot more than any other medical concentrators could. They are still humming away! This is an update after months and months of regular use. If I could go back in time, I'd have bought them SOONER! :lol: I am so glad I took the leap of faith and got these units. Like every piece of equipment in our industry, it will fit some better than others. If this is the worst bit of negative propoganda Larry can find to post about his competition... the new M-10'2 and M-20's must be relatively problem free now. :D I'm happy happy happy with my investment. :love: Hey Brent, if your 20s are still operating good, that means the timer I placed in there did'nt work. Dammitt! it was supposed to shut both 20s down after 6 months so you would have to buy more. OH WELL. Hey are you going to the Gathering? jack

[oxydoc]

I use a P-10 or M-10 or whatever the heck you want to call it and it has always produced a steady oxy flow without a breathing that caused a fluctuation in the strength or consistancy of the flame. Or should I say NO BREATHING and NO FLUCTUATION IN FLAME? :roll:

I've been using it for over a year now without any problems whatsoever. It performed as well yesterday as it did the first day I hooked it up over a year ago. That is to say, it works perfectly fine for working soft glass, which is what I bought it for. I'm not sure what else I should expect it to do for me before the higher priced competitors of this product might agree that I did alright with my purchase.

As someone who, compared to many here on LE, is still quite new to melting glass I have to say this is one of the silliest threads I've seen on these boards. Honestly, I would go out of my way to not buy from those in this thread who have made such an effort to trash their competition.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I hadn't seen with my own eyes that the M-10 does exactly what I was promised it would do and for a significantly lower price than other machines meant to offer the same thing. But as it stands I know that I made a perfectly fine purchase and you ungracious trash talkers just look rediculous to me.

Lil
Im with you on the trash talk, Lil. Enough is enough. Caint we all just get a loan, a bone, a phone.... how does that go????

[Mr. Smiley]

Jack, I read about your timer and reset it. They should shut down in the year 2036... by then, I think they will have paid for themselves! :lol: Actually, they have already paid for themselves and all this mud slinging is for the birds. I am very happy with my units!

I can't get to the gathering... as much as I wanted to, it just wasn't in the cards. No biggie, there's always next year. :D Have fun! :love: