View Full Interactive Version Of This Page : GTT tests M-20, M-10
kbinkster
2006-03-21, 3:32pm
First, I should make it clear that neither I nor GTT have an interest in any concentrator companies, aside from having been approached to be a distributor for the South Central Cryogenics units.
Last August, upon returning home from the Gathering, I posted a thread about a promising new concentrator, the Millennium 10 Custom by South Central Cryogenics. We ran a unit on a Phantom at Open Torch and were very impressed. You can read my account of that here:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286196&highlight=Millennium+Custom
GTT was offered a distributorship. Before agreeing to sell these units (or fully recommend them), GTT wanted to test them in the shop. The company agreed to send out three units for testing – two of the units that were the same as the one we ran at the Gathering and one smaller unit. They changed the name of the unit we ran at the Gathering from the Millennium 10 Custom to the P-20 (or M-20). The smaller unit is the P-10 (or M-10).
There was some confusion, at first, with the company sending them out; so, the units did not arrive until October. After that, GTT received an invoice for the units that they were only testing. Rather than fight about it, Wally just paid for the units thinking that he could sell them after testing. Typically, when a reputable company wants a unit to be tested, they send it to GTT for testing, GTT conducts the tests, then the unit is returned. When Suncoast Beads sent units to be tested, Wally was so impressed with the Integra 10 that he bought it. This was definitely not the case with the P-20.
Wally tested the South Central Cryogenics (aka Unlimited Oxygen) units in late December. He first tried one of the P-20s with a Lynx. Now, this was the same unit that got my rave reviews from its performance at the Gathering. Wally said that he could only get about 60% out of the Lynx before the concentrator played out. Then, it could not run at all until it caught up. After that, it ran the Lynx at about 50%. Wally called up and asked if we were sure this was the same unit as the one we ran at Open Torch. Its performance was nothing like what we had described to him.
Well, maybe that unit was a lemon. It happens. So, Wally hooked up the second P-20 to the Lynx. He got the same results.
Then, Wally decided to test the P-10 on a Bobcat. It ran it at about 50%. The P-20s did not do much better on the Bobcat – about 70%..
Early this year (in January or February), Wally spoke with Jerry Butler. Jerry was the representative for South Central Cryogenics we met at the Gathering. It is rather interesting that Jerry is no longer with South Central Cryogenics. He is now working for OGSI. Anyway, Wally told him of the problems he was having with the P-20s and the P-10. Jerry was not surprised and said that there had been a lot of those units returned. Jerry offered to help with the bad units and sell him some P-10s. Wally said that he would take it up with South Central.
So, Wally called South Central Cryogenics about four to six weeks ago. They were planning to come to GTT to bring another unit to be tested and said that they would repair/adjust the three units while they were there. Wally didn’t hear back from them, so he called again. This time, they said that they would send him three new units and issue a call tag to return the defective ones. They said that there was something different about those units that kept them from working correctly.
One important thing to note was that the flame characteristics indicated low oxygen purity. Wally will be testing the purity of these units, as well as the promised replacements, with a purity meter. He will also test pressures and flow.
GTT would have liked to have done more extensive testing, but all three of the units it received were defective. Once the replacements arrive, GTT will conduct more tests and I will post the results.
IF-Designs
2006-03-21, 3:58pm
Thanks for posting Kim, I had been thinking about these in place of tanked but it sounds like they are lemons to me and I dont think I would be happy with the p-20 on my cheetah at all.
Mr. Smiley
2006-03-21, 4:01pm
I'll take pics of two of the M-20's running my Cheetah and my Cuda. I got these two from regular stock... nothing special and they run like a charm. It's fishy that you got 3 bunk ones... why on earth would a company send out bad units to a torch company to test? Weird...
Justin L
2006-03-21, 4:40pm
I'll take pics of two of the M-20's running my Cheetah and my Cuda. I got these two from regular stock... nothing special and they run like a charm. It's fishy that you got 3 bunk ones... why on earth would a company send out bad units to a torch company to test? Weird...
Sounds similar to how you told me on the phone last week that some customers ordered an M-10/P-10 and received a regular 5LPM Millenium Concentrator. Something is fishy....
kbinkster
2006-03-21, 5:03pm
I'll take pics of two of the M-20's running my Cheetah and my Cuda. I got these two from regular stock... nothing special and they run like a charm. It's fishy that you got 3 bunk ones... why on earth would a company send out bad units to a torch company to test? Weird...
Yeah, you would think that they would pick out some especially good ones for testing.:-k I guess these were just randomly pulled off the shelf, so to speak.
We'll see what the next ones are like.
Mr. Smiley
2006-03-21, 6:07pm
I hope the new ones run as good as the two I got do. I'm going to hook up both torches to these and switch back and forth, depending on what I want to do... I like the length of flame I can get on the Cheetah and it's a mid size bewteen the inner and outer fire of the Cuda. I have a perfect range of flames with this set up for smaller to medium boro work. I'm stoked so far. Keep us posted on the new units. :D
ChaseDesigns
2006-03-22, 2:19pm
Well Greg and I have stayed away from this issue, but it is time to confirm.
We ordered the M20 in Dec. After two went bad on us, we are now on our third M20. So far so good, but yes, we had two lemons. Three concentrators in three months was rather frustrating.
Interesting that Jerry told GTT that it was common as we were told it just doesn't happen. Well clearly it does happen doesn't it?
Fortunately South Central Cryogenics took care of the shipping, but I will say the first two were packed really awful. The third one was the only one that didn't come smashed.
BTW we run a cuda.
ChaseDesigns
2006-03-22, 2:39pm
Thanks for posting Kim, I had been thinking about these in place of tanked but it sounds like they are lemons to me and I dont think I would be happy with the p-20 on my cheetah at all.
Karin if we had to do it again, I am convinced I'd get the integra. We got an opportunity to use Judy's and it worked really well.
smutboy420
2006-03-22, 7:40pm
oh no! I hope they arn't the next adam computer.
The adam computer would of been Very cool for its time if they worked.
Mr. Smiley
2006-03-23, 5:16am
Hahaha... yeah, I don't think that is the case here. These guys seem really into what they are doing and seem to have the issues worked out for the most part. Give them a call and chat with them... I like Jack. He seems like a real good guy. ;) I shoul;d have some serious torch time next week... I'll give another report when I get more time in... and post pictures of the flame.
Justin L
2006-03-23, 5:30am
Interesting that Jerry told GTT that it was common as we were told it just doesn't happen. Well clearly it does happen doesn't it?
coming straight from the guy that used to modify these machines? Strange...[-X
Mr. Smiley
2006-03-23, 5:49am
:lol: The finger wag... it says absolutely nothing, but casts a shadow of doubt on the competition. :lol:
Just Nancy
2006-03-23, 7:23am
I'm hoping it's a lemon. When I make my purchase I'd like to be able to call a company and buy their product, preferably new not reconditioned. I was hoping this was the answer for my bobcat (until I save enough money to justify a 'cuda).
Seems like there is such variation in what you're told from the marketers of the former medical machines ~ if they even return the inquiry.
For now I'm glad to deal with my tank instead of buying a problem (new or used).
ChaseDesigns
2006-03-23, 7:45am
Hahaha... yeah, I don't think that is the case here. These guys seem really into what they are doing and seem to have the issues worked out for the most part. Give them a call and chat with them... I like Jack. He seems like a real good guy. ;) I shoul;d have some serious torch time next week... I'll give another report when I get more time in... and post pictures of the flame.
I hope they have the bugs wroked out too. I would hate for our unit to give out right after the 6 month warrenty is over (which yes, I am worried about that). We can't afford to put out this much money ever 6 months to a year. Our last concentrator ran like a charm 6 years never a problem ever.
We like Jack too. He took care of us right away the second time as we had Jerry the first time and we got lost in the system. Out of production for 3 weeks. We were not happy.
Mr. Smiley
2006-03-23, 9:51am
I don't blame you a bit Deanna... I know what you mean about dishing out this much cash. It almost hurts! I bought two M-20's, a Cuda and a Cheetah. :lol: It's a lot to dish out at one time, I certainly won't be doing it every 6 months... I know for a fact that the torches will last and Jack has assured me these units will too or he'll make it right. If you have any more problems, could you contact me and let me know... I'd appreciate it. :D :love: :D
kentaymom
2006-08-05, 6:07am
Wish I had found this thread before I forked out the $$ for my m-20. I have used it for less than 10 hours (way less) and it died on me. I bought it from Mountain Glass Arts. When I contacted them they referred me to Jack, who I can't get to return any of my calls or PMs. Oh, he did repond to a PM and said he would call me "tomorrow". Yeah, that was 3 days ago. Meanwhile....I have an $800 machine collecting dust and my torch is useless!!!!!!!!!
Wish I had found this thread before I forked out the $$ for my m-20. I have used it for less than 10 hours (way less) and it died on me. I bought it from Mountain Glass Arts. When I contacted them they referred me to Jack, who I can't get to return any of my calls or PMs. Oh, he did repond to a PM and said he would call me "tomorrow". Yeah, that was 3 days ago. Meanwhile....I have an $800 machine collecting dust and my torch is useless!!!!!!!!!
Hi Staci, I am sorry for your frustration. I did return your call on thursday the 3rd, but got no answer, not even an answering machine. You gave me an AM number and a PM number. I have also contacted Mountain Glass to confirm the situation. Your replacement will be sent out on monday. I will be sending a call tag also so you can send back the broken one. I will trouble shoot it to see what went wrong. I opoligize for my delayed responses. We are still recovering from the Kansas City show. jack
kentaymom
2006-08-05, 7:44am
UPDATE:
I spoke with Jack this morning and he is sending me a replacement unit. He was apologetic about the delay in getting back to me and said he did try to call me on Thurs but got no answer or machine.
He also told me to go ahead and keep he unit I have now because he thinks some of the trouble I have been having is due to the heat/humidity we have been experienceing lately. I also let him know that I was actually using it just before he called because it was much cooler today and I was curious if it would make a difference and I was having better luck with it.
Jack went above and beyond what I expected and has definitely made me a happy customer. :grin:
CD Lampwork
2006-08-05, 8:16am
Yep, these guys are the best. Even with all our problems Jack kept working with us (and working and working!). They TOTALLY made the situation right by us. And as a working update: we're now on 2 M20s using one pretty much daily and the second one a couple times per week. They're both working great. Most of our last problem was caused by altitude, which when we came back to sea level cleared up.
We got to meet Jack and Paul at the gathering. They are both absolutly commited to making us beadmakers/marblemakers HAPPY. Their new units look really promising as well.
Great guys, I would absolutly do buisness with them again.
Greg
Yep, these guys are the best. Even with all our problems Jack kept working with us (and working and working!). They TOTALLY made the situation right by us. And as a working update: we're now on 2 M20s using one pretty much daily and the second one a couple times per week. They're both working great. Most of our last problem was caused by altitude, which when we came back to sea level cleared up.
We got to meet Jack and Paul at the gathering. They are both absolutly commited to making us beadmakers/marblemakers HAPPY. Their new units look really promising as well.
Great guys, I would absolutly do buisness with them again.
Greg
Thank You Greg, it was absolutely great to meet you and Deanna at the Gathering. I had really good time and met a lot of people. And thanks for the Marble!!!! I take that thing with me everywhere and show it off. I am glad the 20s are working for you. Im still gonna send you a Tornado to try out. jack
Mr. Smiley
2006-08-06, 2:52am
Wow! What a turn around... I told you these guys were awesome. My 2 M-20's are still singing away without even a hick-up! I love my machines and am so happy these guys came along and stumbled into our industry! Way to go South Central! You guys rock! :D
Anakin's Glass Eye
2006-08-06, 6:54am
Me too!
Just wanna mention that my two M-20s continue to perform perfectly as they have since day one. No cares in the world. Now, if I could quit running out of Propane on Sunday nights at 10 p.m. that would be perfect.
Oh, and Jack, any plans to have a Tornado at AGI to test drive? There will be 100 glass blowing oxygen hogs there who might be interested in trying it out.
Brad
KT-OldSchoolGlass
2006-08-06, 9:34am
Hi Brad,
There will be a 2020 Psyclone at AGI. I am having one shipped there for everyone to try out.
:confused: Hey Guys, What is AGI and when is it? We are going to Eugene, Tucson and Orlando, as far as I know. jack
Mr. Smiley
2006-08-06, 3:42pm
AGI is an event just north of Pittsburg, that unfortunately, I will be missing this year due to my pending divorce. I'm going to miss you guys! Jack, you really should go!
IF-Designs
2006-08-06, 3:52pm
Im unfortunately missing it this year too Brent :( I was hoping to make it but its not gonna happen just not enough time available to take off from work!
Waves up at Jack! Hey there your not too far from here! It was nice seeing you guys at the gathering! Im on a cheetah but havnt had a chance to check out any of the options available to see if I can get full output with my torch on whats available. I really work my torch fully and need the push of oxy and the purity...I was so bummed I didnt get a chance to talk to you more.
jokersdesign
2006-08-06, 4:05pm
oxydoc,
Whats with the M-20? I noticed you don't make them anymore and you don't have a replacement with the same specs.
You now have the Tornado 2010 but at a cost of X2 of the M-20.
If I buy 2 M-20's will you stand behind there output? I would expect to get 10 LPM @ 20 PSI from an M-20 just like the Tornado 2010. I'm disappointed you didn't make a replacement with the same specs in the same price range.
I am considering buying 1 M-20 as I got the flow meters and oxygen analyers to test the unit and make sure it's outputting what it should.
Im unfortunately missing it this year too Brent :( I was hoping to make it but its not gonna happen just not enough time available to take off from work!
Waves up at Jack! Hey there your not too far from here! It was nice seeing you guys at the gathering! Im on a cheetah but havnt had a chance to check out any of the options available to see if I can get full output with my torch on whats available. I really work my torch fully and need the push of oxy and the purity...I was so bummed I didnt get a chance to talk to you more.
It was great seeing you too. I met a lot of cool people at the Gathering. Maybe we'll run into you again.
oxydoc,
Whats with the M-20? I noticed you don't make them anymore and you don't have a replacement with the same specs.
You now have the Tornado 2010 but at a cost of X2 of the M-20.
If I buy 2 M-20's will you stand behind there output? I would expect to get 10 LPM @ 20 PSI from an M-20 just like the Tornado 2010. I'm disappointed you didn't make a replacement with the same specs in the same price range.
I am considering buying 1 M-20 as I got the flow meters and oxygen analyers to test the unit and make sure it's outputting what it should.
We decided that 15psi 8lpm would be the break-off point for the Millenniums. We want to put the bigger output machines in the steel boxes so we have more room to add compressors and more filters. Also we have had so much trouble shipping the Millenniums. We want to eventually have all our units in steel boxes for durability. Im sorry for the price. Our distributors set the market price for all our machines.
jokersdesign
2006-08-18, 8:44pm
We decided that 15psi 8lpm would be the break-off point for the Millenniums. We want to put the bigger output machines in the steel boxes so we have more room to add compressors and more filters. Also we have had so much trouble shipping the Millenniums. We want to eventually have all our units in steel boxes for durability. Im sorry for the price. Our distributors set the market price for all our machines.
Next question. When are you going to get a website?
Next question. When are you going to get a website?
We have one, its just under construction (still) My nephew is working on it. jack#-o
I want to buy a Phantom and a oxygen con to run it.
I presently run a minor and have oxy con at 5 lpm.
If I stick two oxycons in series will it run my phatom at 100 percent or should I get one 10 lpm oxycon?
And If I do that will the 10 oxycon boast even more with my current 5lpm oxycon added in line?
Thanks for any insight.
Heidi8)
Heidi,
I would just send Jack a PM and ask him directly. He is oxydoc who posted just before you.
The phantom is a larger torch and uses a lot of O2. Jack will be able to give you the answers. We has torches he is testing these generators with.
I own his unit for my O2 on a barracuda. I am Happy!!!
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