View Full Interactive Version Of This Page : Observation About Tutorials
I have many purchased tutorials, so please, don't get me wrong! I love learning that tiny little secret I couldn't figure out on my own. But, this past weekend, I printed all my tutorials, put them in page protectors and into binders. Then I figured costs on some of them. Tutorials that are running into $25 and up, are IMHO, just too pricey. I know, many of you will say that this is clearly what the market will bear, but really? The tutorial author has no overhead, no printing costs, and no binding costs. But by the time I figured all my costs involved, I could have purchased a well-photographed book, probably for less money-- that I would own outright, and be able to share, trade or re-sell, without criticism! I get frustrated because tutorials are basically the only teacher I have and I need to make my glass $$$ go as far as I can. I know I have the choice not to buy them, but I do need to grow as an artist, ya know! I'd love to open this discussion to everyone, but only if we can be kind in how we present opinions. Tell me what your take on this issue is...
If you spent two or more hours creating a focal bead and it was gorgeous, would you sell it for $5, $10?
The tutorial author spent MANY hours of their time creating the tutorial...more time than it took to purchase and print it out. So they may charge more depending on what they think their time is worth.
It's business.
Books are as cheap as they are because they are printed in huge quantity.
Carols Glass
2010-10-12, 2:10pm
I just bought a tutorial by Corina Tettinger for $30 and I think it is worth every penny as it has about 6 accompanying links to videos which are priceless!
Amber, I do understand business, having owned a few, but it really doesn't matter what the creator of any product thinks it is worth. The market--the buyer--sets the price ultimately. Every author puts in incredible hours to create their book, ebook, or whatever. With books it can be months or years! So the time it takes to write a tutorial is really nominal. Writing a tutorial is an opportunity to get paid for what you are and would be doing, anyway. Nice work if you can get it, for sure!
Squid, the large production number does lower costs, I agree. I think the tute prices are just starting to get out of hand. I just saw one for $30. and when all is said and done, you wind up with a bead, just like the author's. Not really anything you can call your own. Some must be okay with that. Me? I need $40 to buy more ink, so that tute is definitely off my list!! LOL.
Again, value is in the eye of the beholder, for sure! I just wondered if anybody else was feeling the economic burden! No work, slow sales on etsy...you've heard it all...
Since, for me, tutorials are the only way I can learn a lot of techniques... (yes, I've bought a lot of books and a few videos but still have never actually seen another person torch.
You see, there is NO way I can afford a class with any one of these people and.. each one that I can think of, if I had the money.. I would cheerfully pay hundreds of dollars for a weekends worth of classes.
I think it is incredibly generous of them to offer their skills in this (the eTutorial) form for them of us what cannot afford to take a *real* class from them.
Having done a bit of publishing in my past I know that it is incredibly time consuming (taking a bit of issue with the expression: easy work if you can get it) because I do not think it is (easy, I mean) ..not at all.
If it weren't for those tutorials (and, when I get really lucky and an artist decides to share their knowledge for free) the occasional free tute or video.. I would be even worse than I am! ..hehe (but then there's that PPP thing that life just keeps taking chunks out of the time I set aside for doing that.. it will come).
Nonetheless.. I think the artists who create tutorials deserve every penny.
Just my 3 cents (inflation ;}
~Rachel
sarlit53
2010-10-12, 2:40pm
I appreciate all the hard work that goes into tutorials. The photographing particularly takes time and a lot of effort. Sure printing it out costs. Yes some - over $25 I find very costly and I have to be really sure that I want to learn that technique before I buy one at that price.
I tend to go for tutorials that are REALLY going to show me a new skill and has a lot of good quality pics. Then I look at the cost. It also helps my choice if there is a good sample of the tut which gives me an idea of writing style and the methods I am going to be shown.
So far I have been pleasantly surprised by the good standard of all the tuts I have purchased.
I have to say though that recently I have forced myself to cut back on tut buying as my sales are down and I have to cover costs.
alb6094
2010-10-12, 2:49pm
This is just my own humble opinion and experience but the tutorials I've purchased to me have been priced fairly because:
1. I have learned more about how to 'read' the glass.
2. I have gotten past the fear of experimentation.
3. In the process of practicing a technique (or techniques) I've gone off on my own tangent and made discoveries I would not have otherwise.
I have to say not once have I made anything that looked remotely like the bead in the tutorial :lol:. I don't think that's a bad thing. I've learned so much and grown into my own glass 'voice' a bit more.
YMMV. I love to read and research so tutorials are my cup of tea and unlike books they are not limited but are becoming so prolific and varied that I have a variety to choose from instead of being locked into that one book of techniques that everyone else has too. It offers the opportunity to direct my own glass education, I guess you could say.
I am selective. I don't buy every tutorial that comes along because they don't all appeal to my particular style and that is how I control the expense end of it. I ask myself if this will really benefit my particular learning experience.
Since, for me, tutorials are the only way I can learn a lot of techniques... (yes, I've bought a lot of books and a few videos but still have never actually seen another person torch.
You see, there is NO way I can afford a class with any one of these people and.. each one that I can think of, if I had the money.. I would cheerfully pay hundreds of dollars for a weekends worth of classes.
I think it is incredibly generous of them to offer their skills in this (the eTutorial) form for them of us what cannot afford to take a *real* class from them.
Having done a bit of publishing in my past I know that it is incredibly time consuming (taking a bit of issue with the expression: easy work if you can get it) because I do not think it is (easy, I mean) ..not at all.
If it weren't for those tutorials (and, when I get really lucky and an artist decides to share their knowledge for free) the occasional free tute or video.. I would be even worse than I am! ..hehe (but then there's that PPP thing that life just keeps taking chunks out of the time I set aside for doing that.. it will come).
Nonetheless.. I think the artists who create tutorials deserve every penny.
Just my 3 cents (inflation ;}
~Rachel
Rachel,
Check what I wrote, "Nice work if you can get it", referring to the fact that you'd be making beads whether you were writing a tutorial about them, or not. The fact that you can do both, and make money at both processes is NICE! But I don't think "easy" is a word I would ever use about good beadmaking!!
Polgarra
2010-10-12, 3:03pm
The tutorial price should be based on the quality of the tutorial, quality of the information, quantity of information and how well it is all put together. But obviously you won't know until you buy it.
I wonder if a review system would help. Like 5 professionals that could review the tutorial and give recommendations about what the tutorial was worth. Then maybe the prices would be more in line with economy. I would buy a tutorial if other professionals give it a really good review.
Everyone here is just so nice, almost too nice at times. I have only seen 1 or 2 critical comments on beads when people specifically asked for it. But the flip side is that there might be times to be critical. I would want a warning if a particular tutorial shows little new information but cost $40.
Art of Hand
2010-10-12, 3:06pm
I have a few 'for-sale' tutorials. I guess I have been real lucky - I got gifted most by the authors, and purchased one.
I started melting glass 4 1/2 years ago. I only had the internet and the free information/tutorials to guide me. There is no ways that I could scrape $5000 together to fly to the US, book into hotels, and pay my glass hero's for classes. I still cannot afford to fly all over the world for classes.
But then, one day I realised that I rather enjoyed figuring stuff out by myself. I still browse the internet looking for information, and try and figure stuf out. To buy a $30 tut, would take me 4 hours of nursing. That is how I equate anything that I buy. At that price, I back slowly away.
Currently I offer free tutorials. I offer them for free, because I feel obliged to 'pass it forward'. I got SO much from the community, and I know there is a lot of newbies that might be in my shoes. But, times IS tough, and that is why I offered the option to people visiting my blog to donate something, if they felt that what I offered them, is worth something.
At the same time, I do not offer PDF files that require 3 seperate downloads, and months of prep work, like one of my friend's did. Neither have I spent hundreds of $ to make sure that the tools that I offer is the best, and actually working. I did not need to employ someone to take pictures. Myself (and a tripod) were my only employees.
What I am trying to say, is that it is ok for people to ask money for their time spend.
On the other hand. What is the right amount, and what is wrong? The person that perpared a tutorial, is not charging the amount to just one person, but hundreds, if not more. How much would that person expect to 'earn' through sales, vs the amount of time put into the product? To make your knowledge available, means to me that the person is in a way divorcing themselves from the product. The value that they attatched to the product prior to the revelation should be higher. After the publishing the product becomes public domain. They can only claim being the originator/perfector of the design.
I do think that some tutorials is 'overpriced'. But then, I am a miser.
As most everyone has heard me say, I think re-selling a purchased tutorial is a reasonable thing. This would allow me to expand the use of my glass $$. However, when I buy the tutorial, I agree not to, so I don't sell them. Plus I don't think my skin is fire-proof enough to take the heat if I tried to! I love my tutorials, because like many of you I can't afford expensive classes, so the tutorials and a whole bunch of practice, experimentation and advice on the board are my teachers. I just can't manage putting out $30+ dollares and still handling all the printing and binding. Times are tough here, for essentially what is a hobby. I wish I sold more, but I don't (dammit), so I can hardly call it a profession! I dig around for tips, and freebies as much as I can.
Polgarra
2010-10-12, 3:26pm
As most everyone has heard me say, I think re-selling a purchased tutorial is a reasonable thing. This would allow me to expand the use of my glass $$. However, when I buy the tutorial, I agree not to, so I don't sell them. Plus I don't think my skin is fire-proof enough to take the heat if I tried to! I love my tutorials, because like many of you I can't afford expensive classes, so the tutorials and a whole bunch of practice, experimentation and advice on the board are my teachers. I just can't manage putting out $30+ dollares and still handling all the printing and binding. Times are tough here, for essentially what is a hobby. I wish I sold more, but I don't (dammit), so I can hardly call it a profession! I dig around for tips, and freebies as much as I can.
I have wondered about the sharing thing since I recently taught a class where this was debated.
I don't think you could sell a virtual version because of the nature of the material.
But I wondered if it would be a problem if you printed out 1 (only 1) copy and shared it with a friend, the way you would a book? The assumption would be that they would return the copy. The Nook has a similiar feature where you can loan a copy of one of your books, you can't read the book during that time and it will be returned after two weeks or something. Please understand that I am not saying I would do this (except for free tutorials) but I am asking if tutorial writers would be offended by that idea.
My experience is that Hell Yes they will object. I braoched that subject sometime ago, and it was made clear to me that the information, whether printed or not is FOR YOUR EYES ONLY. Not only that but some authors have warned about discussing the technique at all, that the listener should be referred back to the author!
Here's the problem. After learning tons of information/techniques from all kinds of sources, and absorbing all the skills one can, doesn't that info then become your own? Not only have you paid for it, but you learned it! It became part of your skill set. How can anyone expect you NOT to share your own skill set, regardless of the origin? Most of the skills are not invented by the author, just compiled to create one specific bead or trick.
I thank the Gods daily for the generous sharing of so many individuals on LE, and WetCanvas and everywhere else! Where would we be, if not for the open flow of info?
that being said, of course, the deal with the tutorials is a deal after all. I know I don't HAVE to buy them. and I BUY as few as possible!
Polgarra
2010-10-12, 3:56pm
Not only that but some authors have warned about discussing the technique at all, that the listener should be referred back to the author!
Really? Is that common? Cause I doubt I would buy one if that was the case for that tutorial. I am not totally convinced that is even legal. If the particular technique is copyrighted (or patented) then you could prevent others from actually using that technique. For example, the TV show 'How it's made' shows hows things are made but that doesn't mean you can go make and sell whatever they are showing. But I am not sure, with out you signing a physical confidentiality clause that they can prevent you from discussing the techniques.
This is a hot topic legally and most of the rules haven't been formalized.
BUT this seems like a small community and I would follow the rules that yall have informally setup. If I don't like the rules regarding the tutorial (and I would want to know before I bought) then I would either agree to their rules or choose to not buy the product
Really? Is that common? Cause I doubt I would buy one if that was the case for that tutorial. I am not totally convinced that is even legal. If the particular technique is copyrighted (or patented) then you could prevent others from actually using that technique. For example, the TV show 'How it's made' shows hows things are made but that doesn't mean you can go make and sell whatever they are showing. But I am not sure, with out you signing a physical confidentiality clause that they can prevent you from discussing the techniques.
This is a hot topic legally and most of the rules haven't been formalized.
BUT this seems like a small community and I would follow the rules that yall have informally setup. If I don't like the rules regarding the tutorial (and I would want to know before I bought) then I would either agree to their rules or choose to not buy the product
Common? No, I don't think so, but I HAVE seen it on a couple of them. Wish one could know all about the details, caveats and whatever ahead, but most don't offer the info, even in a clip, for free. So, let the buyer beware, I guess!! And obviously, if you have been reading my posts here, you can see that I don't take a gag order seriously. I say what I think, sometimes to my own peril!! LOL
bluffroadglass
2010-10-12, 4:19pm
I think that what's often overlooked in these discussions about tutorial pricing is that the value in what you're buying is in the information that's being offered, not the format it's offered in or the amount of time it took the tutorial author to write it or photograph it. Bottom line, what you're actually buying when you buy a tutorial is another artist's trade secrets. You're buying the exact color recipe and detailed step by step instructions that will allow you to clone one of the author's best selling original designs, and sell it and profit on it, for the rest of your life.
Think about your favorite bead design -- something you're really proud of. Suppose it's a bead that always sells for you, one that you can always depend on to help pay the rent or put food on the table. It's a design that other beadmakers are always asking you how to do. You've made thousands of dollars on this design over the years, and because nobody else knows how it's made, you have the exclusive on the market. Anybody who wants to buy this bead, has to buy it from you.
Now, suppose another beadmaker came to you and asked you to teach her how to make that bead, and also to give her your permission to sell and profit from the design forever. Let's say she offered you $25 for this. Would you think it was a fair offer?
asimeral
2010-10-12, 4:27pm
A few months ago, someone--can't remember who, was selling a copy of a tute. She had printed it out, deleted the computer file, and was selling the tute. OMG, there was a backlash from the community so scathing I wouldn't even THINK of doing it!
"Think about your favorite bead design -- something you're really proud of. Suppose it's a bead that always sells for you, one that you can always depend on to help pay the rent or put food on the table. It's a design that other beadmakers are always asking you how to do. You've made thousands of dollars on this design over the years, and because nobody else knows how it's made, you have the exclusive on the market. Anybody who wants to buy this bead, has to buy it from you."
If only [sigh].
But Kim, no one is going to sell their best designs for $25. They are gambling on hundreds of buyers. Also, I have one of your Tutorials, it's great, but make no mistake, I have no plans to clone your bead. I bought it for the tricks! I only want to make my beads, better. And because I had a strong day of impulse shopping. LOL
PittsGlass
2010-10-12, 4:33pm
Amber, I do understand business, having owned a few, but it really doesn't matter what the creator of any product thinks it is worth. The market--the buyer--sets the price ultimately. Every author puts in incredible hours to create their book, ebook, or whatever. With books it can be months or years! So the time it takes to write a tutorial is really nominal. Writing a tutorial is an opportunity to get paid for what you are and would be doing, anyway. Nice work if you can get it, for sure!
I have an issue with this assumption. Yes, a tut writer is a bead maker, but not all bead makers can put together a quality tut. The glass product they produce for sale is a small part of the publication process. They don't just make a production bead and photograph the end result. They must break it down in steps, photographing each one, sometimes several times. Then they have to put the steps in a clear written form, going over it from a beginners perspective and rewriting as necessary. Then comes layout, not only being mindful of esthetic's, and content, but ease of transmissibility. On top of that, they are making their own original product loose value in future sales.
So this lucky bead maker that has mastered a particular glass technique they are willing to share now must also add skills to be a photographer, writer and self publisher. These are not part of their daily torch routine.
I do not publish my own tuts. I have no reason to take the comment personally. However, I feel that the artists taking the time to do this extra work should not be thought of as simply "doing what they would normally do" and getting paid extra. They worked for it and earned it.
A few months ago, someone--can't remember who, was selling a copy of a tute. She had printed it out, deleted the computer file, and was selling the tute. OMG, there was a backlash from the community so scathing I wouldn't even THINK of doing it!
Listen girl, you aren't even supposed to buy one as a gift for someone else, even though you have no plans to read it yourself! Hot topic!! I love to open this can of worms I guess, 'cause I have, several times. But I still don't always agree with the status quo.
A friend let me look at her book of tutorials recently. I was careful not to read the instructions too carefully, because it was her book, not mine! I mean, really!!!
But, you're right, the backlash can be hot and way too hurtful, for the gain. Who would have thought peer pressure still works at our age??
I have an issue with this assumption. Yes, a tut writer is a bead maker, but not all bead makers can put together a quality tut. The glass product they produce for sale is a small part of the publication process. They don't just make a production bead and photograph the end result. They must break it down in steps, photographing each one, sometimes several times. Then they have to put the steps in a clear written form, going over it from a beginners perspective and rewriting as necessary. Then comes layout, not only being mindful of esthetic's, and content, but ease of transmissibility. On top of that, they are making their own original product loose value in future sales.
So this lucky bead maker that has mastered a particular glass technique they are willing to share now must also add skills to be a photographer, writer and self publisher. These are not part of their daily torch routine.
I do not publish my own tuts. I have no reason to take the comment personally. However, I feel that the artists taking the time to do this extra work should not be thought of as simply "doing what they would normally do" and getting paid extra. They worked for it and earned it.
Pam, I see your point and I concede that maybe I was a bit cavalier. I don't write tutorials, though I have written several training manuals and do understand the work involved. Sorry if I diminished the labor and skill that goes into a finely wrought document. My apologies.
Listen girl, you aren't even supposed to buy one as a gift for someone else, even though you have no plans to read it yourself! Hot topic!! I love to open this can of worms I guess, 'cause I have, several times. But I still don't always agree with the status quo.
A friend let me look at her book of tutorials recently. I was careful not to read the instructions too carefully, because it was her book, not mine! I mean, really!!!
But, you're right, the backlash can be hot and way too hurtful, for the gain. Who would have thought peer pressure still works at our age??
YOU ARE VERY BRAVE.......I was involved in one of those hot debates a while back...I still have nightmares! Bwahahahahahahaaha :eek:
Frit Diva
2010-10-12, 4:39pm
I think this is a very valuable discussion and I hope everyone will keep it positive and constructive.
As far as I am able to see, there's a place for all types of glass education, and a market as well. Every student is in a different situation, and has unique needs. Some of us live in places where classes are readily accessible, or can travel to attend classes. Some can even travel to Italy to observe the masters. Some are lucky enough to study in university programs. However, many of us can never consider the expense of doing any of those things.... but we still want to learn.
Traditionally produced books are a great way to convey large volumes of information, but they are limited by the economics of production, and the artist/author generally receives only a very small royalty (pennies on the dollar) for books sold. For these reasons, most of the information you can readily buy in tutorials will never be made available in book form.
A well-produced tutorial is essentially a book that has not been put into printed form. The author does all the work of writing, photographing, layout, typography, etc. in the hope that people will want to learn the skill or technique he or she is offering. The knowledge being shared is the product for sale, the e-book is just the vehicle. It's then up to the buyer to decide if the knowledge in this e-book is worth the price being asked, much the same way a customer walks into your booth at a show and decides whether or not they think your beads are worth the price you are asking. It's not exactly the same, of course, but I personally think it's fairly similar.
Just like beads, there are excellent tutorials, good tutorials and not-so-good tutorials, and tutorials for every taste and inclination. As far as pricing goes, each author has to juggle the knowledge they are sharing and how much energy they put into the tut against the potential market for it.
When I created The Cabochon Adventure, I spent over 2 months putting it together, so I had to consider my time investment when I set the price. I sincerely hope I gave a good value, and I trust that the market will tell me if I am overcharging for what I shared!
One more thing that you get with a tutorial that you do not get with a printed book: the help and support of the author after your purchase. For any of my tutorials, I will happily answer email inquiries about any aspect of the tutorial, including sources, techniques, and applications for the tut that I may not have even considered when I was writing it.
Jo
thatbeadchickie
2010-10-12, 5:19pm
Listen girl, you aren't even supposed to buy one as a gift for someone else, even though you have no plans to read it yourself! Hot topic!!
Last year I bought SEVERAL as gifts for LE members during Secret Santa. I just paid for the tutorial and then told the author the e-mail address of the gift recipient. Not one author had issue with that at all.
Polgarra
2010-10-12, 6:27pm
This is a topic that I am curious about. I know that if I took the time (and creativity) to write a tutorial I would be upset if I lost money because people shared it around. But I am also concerned with what the law says. I found this:
"The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule.""
I seem to recall that the first sale doctrine does not apply to digital media.
Polgarra
2010-10-12, 6:58pm
They have shown First sale doctrine to apply to software depending on the EULA but I did more research and yes, you are correct according to the current law. As of now ebooks do not apply but that is because of the terminology used (they are not selling you the ebook, merely licensing it to you). I am guessing that most of the tutorials are not using the correct legal terminology (which they should).
I am more concerned with the idea that no one could ever look at it. Not sending it to them or making a copy but rather looking over your shoulder. That is the equivalent of iTunes saying that you can buy a song but no one else can hear it. And you can't talk about it? I thought that was limited to places like NASA and the CIA.
I sell my tuts for $18. They aren't beads and I don't sell the same bead to 300 people.
Yeah, saying you can't tell anyone what's in a tut is pretty silly. Novels are copyrighted, but there is no law against telling someone what the plot is.
How can it be wrong for me to print out the tutorial I bought and show it to my sister or a friend? Really?
personally I haven't purchased one Tut. with the volumes of information that each forum has, I see no need to purchase something that is out there for free. I have purchased one used CD made by a forum member, payed half the original price and wish i had passed on it completely. flat out not worth anything. And I purchased a book , not a great bond book, and I knew how to do everything that was covered, but I figured why not have it for the library in case some one here wants some reading.
if I cant figure out how to do something, well I would ask and so far each question I have posed has had feed back.
again personally, if the average cost is around $20 for a Tut, then it better be pretty off the wall stuff and packed with good information. if not, youtube and the web has what I need for free.
first sale. personally if one pays for a Tut, then he or she should be able to pass it on, sell or what ever. no! one can not reproduce it, but if some one on here is getting their feathers ruffled on the subject, then it be someone I'd pass on. if they been paid, once its mine in purchasing, then they havent much to say on the subject. As far as not being able to teach or pass on this knowledge is total BS in my opinion.
VivianLampwork
2010-10-12, 8:16pm
Don't scream at me & get mad, but I don't see the point of this thread. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy these tutorials. If you don't want to buy them DON'T.
Don't scream at me & get mad, but I don't see the point of this thread. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy these tutorials. If you don't want to buy them DON'T.
This is so true. The information is worth what people are willing to pay for it, and really, at the end of the day, that's why they are priced as they are. If the market couldn't bear it, I feel sure that they'd be less spendy.
That said, I am happy to have bought the tutorials I've accumulated at the price I paid for them, and I'd buy pretty much all of them again.
I don't understand what this thread is meant to accomplish other than to cause upset. The idea that people should discount their product to offset our printing costs is sort of ludicrous.
I tend to think that if you put 2 hours into a bead, it should fetch a healthy reward. Usually they are a one of a kind bead. I wouldn't like to spend the amount of time it takes to create a masterpiece, and then get $5-$10 for it.
I made a free tutorial that took maybe 6 hours to put together. It was viewed by 2,043 lampworkers. For sheetz and geeglez, let's just say I charge $15.00 for the tutorial. Multiply $15.00 times the amount of viewers, and my tutorial could bring in $30,645.00. Amber posted a free tutorial on her Fire Opals. It was worth every bit of $15 had she charged for it, and was viewed 9,961 times here on LE. Multiply $15.00 times the amount of views, and Amber could have made $49,805.00.
The tutorial authors probably don't get anywhere near the amount of sales as the views of the free tuts recorded here on LE, but I would venture to say that they make a nice chunk of change that definitely pays a few bills. I still believe that some of the tutorial authors who are asking $15.00 and up, could sell more tutorials if they weren't asking such a high price for them. Just MHO.
I don't understand why people print out every tutorial, either.
carolinesbeads
2010-10-12, 10:07pm
I usually don't print out my tuts because I don't really want to make an exact copy of the bead. I do like someones suggestion of getting an iPad or simmilar to view tuts in your studio. I do see both sides of this debate. On the one hand most books I have looked at show many different techniques, while tuts usually only show one (many show more that one) And you can do whatever you want with the book. However the techniques I have learned from books seem to be things I could have learned for free elsewhere.
I love the tuts I have bought. When I started I bought the tuts that seemed the most popular now I am more selective. I feel that the info in the tuts is stuff that may never make it into a book not because its not worthy of being published but because it's a huge undertaking and getting something published is not easy. I do think that the authors should be compensated for their time and expertise, you are buying a trade secret. I feel I can look at the beads that a tut will teach you how to make and decide if I could figure that out on my own before I buy it. Also I evaluate how likely I am to use a certain technique. Yes some are very expensive but again you don't have to buy it.
YOU ARE VERY BRAVE.......I was involved in one of those hot debates a while back...I still have nightmares! Bwahahahahahahaaha :eek:
Rudy, I AM a girl who likes to play with fire!!!
I think people should charge whatever they want to, it's no skin off my nose. If I want to pay for it I will, if not....
The thing I don't understand is why people who make a living putting their knowledge out there, teaching classes all over the country and even the world, writing articles in magazines, writing tutorials, the whole enchilada - still try to hold onto that as tight as they can. It's not going to work. It's just not possible to do it. You can't possibly teach people and sell ebooks on your technique and expect that people are going to not pass along what they have learned. It's really nuts to even try.
This is so true. The information is worth what people are willing to pay for it, and really, at the end of the day, that's why they are priced as they are. If the market couldn't bear it, I feel sure that they'd be less spendy.
That said, I am happy to have bought the tutorials I've accumulated at the price I paid for them, and I'd buy pretty much all of them again.
I don't understand what this thread is meant to accomplish other than to cause upset. The idea that people should discount their product to offset our printing costs is sort of ludicrous.
I would hate to think that honest discussion on a subject that concerns me is seriously upsetting to anyone. If it upsets one, well, there are other threads that are strictly feel good threads. No one has to participate in this discussion, but as always, I value the opinions of my fellow lampworkers. It is a resource I have counted on for years. I don't imagine I will be muzzled in the near future. If I want to understand something, anything, I ask.
I struggle with this issue and many of you know that I have spoken out about this before. I think tutes are great. If I can get the info for free, I search that out first. I try to figure things out on my own alot. But when all else fails, or when I just don't feel like trying to reinvent the wheel, I buy help. I don't mean to be argumentative. but I do feel I have the right to ask what other people feel.
I have truly appreciated reading what my contemporaries feel about this, and expecially hearing from those of you who are involved in the selling of tutorials.
"I do like someones suggestion of getting an iPad or simmilar to view tuts in your studio."
Hah! Wouldn't that be great?? But...if I'm complaining about the cost of ink, paper, page protectors and binders, clearly the cost of an ipad isn't in my near future...dammit.
I don't think it is ludicrous to suggest that Cindy Jenkin's book, at $29.95 was perhaps, in the long run, a better value than a 20 page tutorial that I have to print, bind etc. And yes, I do need to print them, so I can refer to sections while I experiment. Just the way I roll.
Now no one will probably ever sell me another tutorial. Them's the breaks for sounding off. I can live with it.
Thanks everyone, as always, for generously sharing your thoughts, advice and wisdom. It may annoy some, but I appreciate your input!!:waving:
J. Savina
2010-10-13, 6:10am
I wrote 1 tutorial. Just 1. So my hat's off to anyone who has written more than 1. Until you have actually written a tutorial, you have no idea the drain on the brain it takes. Will I do another one? Maybe. But not any time soon.
I've recently purchased a few tutorials. Some for $30.00, some for $25.00. I'm not sorry one iota about paying that price. The information is particularly useful for what I do. In my humble opinion they are tools, not just tuts. I've paid lots of money for some of my tools that can be used over, and over, and over again. Viewing the tutorials as "tools" has put things in perspective for me. Everyone of these tools is worth their weight in gold to me. And, I cherish every tutorial I've purchased. Not only because of the valuable information I've received, but also, being a 1 time tutorial writer, I can really appreciate the hard work that goes into each one. If the tutorial interests me, and I can afford it at the time, I'll buy it. If I can't afford it, I'll "save up" for if if I want it bad enough. I know, I can't have everything.
I think maybe some people miss a point here. If you can turn around and make money from the knowlege, or tool that you have purchased, then that's a good thing. If it's just for your own personal enrichment, that's a good thing too.
J.
midniteburner
2010-10-13, 8:54am
If you spent two or more hours creating a focal bead and it was gorgeous, would you sell it for $5, $10?
You and I wouldn't but there are plenty of people who do everyday. Just look at Ebay...
Sara
Lea Zinke
2010-10-13, 8:58am
[QUOTE=emoon;3241639]"I do like someones suggestion of getting an iPad or simmilar to view tuts in your studio."
"...But...if I'm complaining about the cost of ink, paper, page protectors and binders, clearly the cost of an ipad isn't in my near future...dammit...."
Gosh, emoon, reading the above quotation, you're complaining (your words) about costs you are inflicting upon yourself. Just because YOU LIKE to collect them that way, doesn't mean the tutorial author should take that into consideration. And, I agree with the others that writing the tutorial, photographing the step-by-steps, etc. and etc., preparing the tutorial is harder and more time-consuming that one might assume.
I've purchased several tutorials, some I purchased just in order to support the author who needed the money. Others I printed out just to learn a new technique, and then I rationalize by knowing that you only have to sell ONE BEAD at $25 to recoup the cost and the knowledge you'll have forever!!!!
Just say'n...:-\"
Look, I am not complaining about collecting the tutorials that I think might help me further my efforts at becoming an outstanding glass beadmaker. I'm just pointing out that without the costs involved in actual bookmaking, it seems that a tutorial should be less expensive than an actual book. No one forces me to purchase tutorials and I never suggested that. I need and want to grow in my skill set, and with my budget, it, (tutorials), seemed the best way to go. I was just a bit appalled that the cost of a tutorial seems to have sky-rocketed this past year. I don't expect the author to discount their tute, only to be realistic about what their overhead really is. I keep hearing that it took a month, 2 months, more...really? 8 hour days for 2 months? I wrote an entire training manual for the State of Michigan, in two languages, with step-by-step pictures for those who couldn't read, and did it in less time, but whatever. Each of you that are writing the tutorials know what your time in is, and what your overhead is.
I don't try to sell the bead I learned from the tutorial, that isn't my goal at all. Just to add to my skills. I am a bit smirkish when I see a bead for sale that looks just like someone elses, in fact. Just trying to figure a way to get the best bang for my buck, like everyone else these days.
Lea Zinke
2010-10-13, 9:57am
Oh gosh, nevernevernever suggested that you make "the same bead" -- I'm talking about taking your new skill set, applying it to your work, and you sell one bead and recoup your costs...and the knowledge is yours forever. Never did I say to make the same bead.
But really, your desire to print them out, and jacket them, and buy binders adds to your cost voluntarily because you like it that way. The tutorial author should not be required to take that into consideration.
Again, just say'n...:rolleyes:
Polgarra
2010-10-13, 10:07am
I think I am confused on something. Is it wrong to make a bead according to a tutorial? I thought that if someone says "Do this then that" there would be no problem is doing that way and even selling it. Obviously it is not 'art' in the case of a unique creation from your own mind. More like a generic version. I have never sold a bead but I think I am now confused on the purpose of a tutorial
Kalera
2010-10-13, 10:19am
My opinion is that most tutorials are priced far higher than they need to be to compensate the author for their time, assuming they sell at least 100 copies. Which is by no means a given.
Personally, I would like to see a few tut authors get together and offer their tuts bound in hardcopy, either through a traditional publisher or via Lulu or similar outlet, because while I won't pay $25 for an efile, I would gladly pay more for a hardcopy volume for my library.
The one issue I do have with tutorials is the idea some people seem to have that it is forbidden to discuss methods that someone has written or is writing a tut about. A newbie asks a question, and someone replies "Isn't so-and-so writing a tut on that?" and the implication is that we daren't share our methods because it might be revealing that tut author's secrets... except it isn't, if someone else has the knowledge and the willingness to share it. I'm not talking about trade secrets or signature techniques, I'm just talking about general methods. At least one tut author has tried to dispel any such notions by pointing out that her tut is meant to be an instructional guide and is not proprietary knowledge, but it still persists.
I am all for tuts; consider how expensive classes can be, especially if you travel to them. A tutorial is not a replacement for a class, but it is an inexpensive way to expand your repertoire. They are a way for the experienced bead artist to share methods they spent years developing, with an audience far larger than those who would be able to take a class.
There are also tutorials that cover information already offered in comparatively inexpensive books which also have many other techniques. Sometimes the value is in the comprehensive presentation and explanation.
Sometimes, it is possible that there really is no added value, and in that case, I think the market will probably come to that conclusion on its own.
Either way, I think it is unfair to the community to expect people to refrain from discussing methods that many people developed independently, just because someone is selling a tut that includes them. I am not saying that everyone expects that, just that it is a dynamic I have noticed from time to time.
Pol, You can do it whatever way you want to. There is no hard and fast etiquette on this issue. I don't, because my ego demands that I try to be unique. that's just me, chica! But you can coppy, duplicate, clone and then sell. 'Sall good!
Lea, Sorry, I was up til 4 am in the studio, and then got up at 6. Just feelin' a bit snarky. You are right, binding, printing, etc. is completely my choice. I guess I thought that it made using them easier, but again, my choice. So perhaps I should stop bitchin' and start melting stuff!!
Thank you, Kalera!- Well-said! and just what IS a fart-accordian? Does it come with a tutorial? [smart-ass smirk]
Kalera
2010-10-13, 10:29am
Thank you, Kalera!- Well-said! and just what IS a fart-accordian? Does it come with a tutorial? [smart-ass smirk]
LOL! Someone here was talking about her gassy baby, and getting him to de-gas by working his little legs like a fart-accordion... it made me laugh so hard I had to put it in my profile!
I wrote my two tutorials that are boro bead recipe books. The first one is $25 and has 47 recipes. The second is $19 and has 27 recipes.
I created mine because I stopped beadmaking, yet had many, many customers that still wanted my beads. I have some customers that have used my beads in designs that have been published/used in advertising in some major magazines. I have several customers that design jewelry as a fulltime job and make a living off of their jewelry sales that used my beads in their designs.
When I quit making beads, I was bombarded with customers asking if I would still make them or if I could refer them to anyone that made beads using the same recipes as I did.
I felt that not only was I selling my tutorials for all of the recipes, but also at the same time passing along my business and customer base.
I am still to this day - as recently as last week - asked if I would create a custom order making up some of my beads for a customer. I don't have my equipment or interest in making beads anymore, but my customers are still looking for the beads I made - and the exact color/recipes that I used to use.
Since, for me, tutorials are the only way I can learn a lot of techniques... (yes, I've bought a lot of books and a few videos but still have never actually seen another person torch. (I have only seen 2 people torch - I would love to take a class...maybe someday)
You see, there is NO way I can afford a class with any one of these people and.. each one that I can think of, if I had the money.. I would cheerfully pay hundreds of dollars for a weekends worth of classes.
I think it is incredibly generous of them to offer their skills in this (the eTutorial) form for them of us what cannot afford to take a *real* class from them.
......
I agree with this ^^
I own most of the tutorials out there and the others that I don't....I WANT. Yep, I am also one of those people who prints out each one and puts them in binders (I have LOTS of binders full of lampwork info)
All I have to say .... PLEASE KEEP WRITING THE TUTORIALS. I WANT THEM! I WILL BUY THEM. Right now, money is too tight for me to buy anything but I have a list...and when I can, I will be buying them...printing them out...and filling up yet another binder.
Thanks to all of you whose tutorials I enjoy...and I can't wait to get the ones I don't have.
Kalera
2010-10-13, 11:12am
Cat, you should link to your tuts in your sig... for those of us who might want to buy those recipes. :) Just sayin'...
patienthand
2010-10-13, 11:21am
I wrote a tutorial that had 9 separate items you could make from it. It was teaching a progressive skill set that will take someone years to master all of the tutorial. If I remember right it was 78 pages long and took me MONTHS to produce and years and years to learn the techniques myself. I normally teach that class as a 5 day class. I also offer to coach anyone by email, and possibly even by phone( if you ask me). That tutorial bails a lot of dogs off of death row, and pays my expenses to do disaster work with animals when needed. I make absolutely NO apologies for asking for 25 dollars for that tutorial. If you do not see the value of it.. dont buy it. But dont bash me for it either. I am sorry you cant afford to spend a couple hundred bucks a day to learn it in person in a class, or pay the hotel bills and travel.... not my problem....I cant have everything I want either. But I also dont get pissy and resent Best Buy because they have goodies I want and I cant afford them.
Hi Kalera - Thanks for the suggestions. Good idea. My old domain name was taken, so I chose an easy to remember new one.
I decided to put my tutorials up on a website because I've been asked so many times recently about both the beads and where to get my tutorials. I'm not trying to make a sales pitch, because that's cheesy (lol), but I do know that I'm still asked all the time by my customers if they know anyone that is making these same beads. So the $25 tutorial cost is probably a drop in the bucket knowing there are customers sitting out there wanting these beads right now.
I figure with these recipes that I basically am offering my business for $25 to anyone that wants it. And I know that some of them made production/order items, so wanted the same beads over and over.
I love tutorials and really think that with the new information learned from the tutorials, whether it be recipes or techniques can really be a business investment.
gemsinbloom
2010-10-13, 11:28am
Just a headsup. Your link goes to your Etsy store, not your www site.
Hi Kalera - Thanks for the suggestions. Good idea. My old domain name was taken, so I chose an easy to remember new one.
I decided to put my tutorials up on a website because I've been asked so many times recently about both the beads and where to get my tutorials. I'm not trying to make a sales pitch, because that's cheesy (lol), but I do know that I'm still asked all the time by my customers if they know anyone that is making these same beads. So the $25 tutorial cost is probably a drop in the bucket knowing there are customers sitting out there wanting these beads right now.
I figure with these recipes that I basically am offering my business for $25 to anyone that wants it. And I know that some of them made production/order items, so wanted the same beads over and over.
I love tutorials and really think that with the new information learned from the tutorials, whether it be recipes or techniques can really be a business investment.
Thanks for letting me know that. :)
ummm...I am NEVER pissy. I don't resent anyone. I am entitled to an opinion and I have the right to voice it. In my first post, I asked people to be respectful. Let me say that again. You don't have to agree with me, just don't be nasty.
btw, we rescue dogs too, and I am glad you put in the effort. It is a worthy cause.
Cat, you should link to your tuts in your sig... for those of us who might want to buy those recipes. :) Just sayin'...
A most excellent suggestion. I do still buy tutorials, y'all...
chrissij
2010-10-13, 12:02pm
I'm gonna' bitch if the next one I purchase doesn't come complete with:
1) spare time, and
2) motivation.
Lea Zinke
2010-10-13, 12:10pm
ChrissyJ, don't forget:
(3) Instant success.
LOL,
Lea
chrissij
2010-10-13, 12:14pm
Sh*t, you're right. You don't think that'd be asking too much? I don't wanna' seem pushy or anything...
Kalera
2010-10-13, 12:15pm
I want to clarify; I don't normally buy tutorials simply because I don't care for e-books. That's just a personal preference, not a condemnation of e-books. I am still hoping some tutorial authors will get together and make a unified large volume, which I would love to have on my shelf as a reference book. I even think that odds are good that if several people put something together and approached a publisher about it, they might accept it. It would mean less money per sale, but potentially a wider audience and a great deal more exposure, and might be a fantastic way to revive older tutorials that aren't selling well anymore anyway.
Since the outstanding success of several books that were initially published online, publishers are getting less leery of material which has been previously distributed on the Internet.
I want to clarify; I don't normally buy tutorials simply because I don't care for e-books. That's just a personal preference, not a condemnation of e-books. I am still hoping some tutorial authors will get together and make a unified large volume, which I would love to have on my shelf as a reference book. I even think that odds are good that if several people put something together and approached a publisher about it, they might accept it. It would mean less money per sale, but potentially a wider audience and a great deal more exposure, and might be a fantastic way to revive older tutorials that aren't selling well anymore anyway.
Since the outstanding success of several books that were initially published online, publishers are getting less leery of material which has been previously distributed on the Internet.
I think this is a great idea!!
Hayley
2010-10-13, 12:47pm
I have written one tutorial (on shaping bicones using a basic but interesting technique with a bit of silver glass thrown in) and five compilation eBooks. For the SE eBooks, I price them according to how many pages/beads are in each (SE5 is almost 100 pages, thus priced higher than the rest). The SE eBooks take weeks to put together . . .
All of the SE eBooks (except for SE1) are available as printed bound books at lulu.com. I figure that by the time you take the time and effort to print a pdf copy out . . . combined that with the cost of ink/toner, some may elect to just purchase a physical bound book. Moreover, with the bound books, you can resell them! Curiously I haven't sold that many bound books . . .
I have written one tutorial (on shaping bicones using a basic but interesting technique with a bit of silver glass thrown in) and five compilation eBooks. For the SE eBooks, I price them according to how many pages/beads are in each (SE5 is almost 100 pages, thus priced higher than the rest). The SE eBooks take weeks to put together . . .
All of the SE eBooks (except for SE1) are available as printed bound books at lulu.com. I figure that by the time you take the time and effort to print a pdf copy out . . . combined that with the cost of ink/toner, some may elect to just purchase a physical bound book. Moreover, with the bound books, you can resell them! Curiously I haven't sold that many bound books . . .
I didn't even know you offered them! I don't use that much silver glass so I'm unlikely to want them for myself, but I might want them for reference or for eye candy.
I like the option. I didn't know about the bound books, and I do have one of your earlier se books. Looks like you have covered every base! Hayley, can you share what the upfront cost is with Lulu for those who are interested?
Thanks
J. Savina
2010-10-13, 2:24pm
I am still hoping some tutorial authors will get together and make a unified large volume, which I would love to have on my shelf as a reference book. I even think that odds are good that if several people put something together and approached a publisher about it, they might accept it. It would mean less money per sale, but potentially a wider audience and a great deal more exposure, and might be a fantastic way to revive older tutorials that aren't selling well anymore anyway.
K,
You just gave me an idea. I was offering my Kumihimo Tut as a 25 page bound booklet. I was doing the printing and binding of it in my studio. Then my color laser printer broke down and I haven't got it fixed yet, so I'm holding off on listing it as a printed booklet. But when I do get my laser printer fixed, I think I'm going to print and bind 2 different booklets. One on lampworking, and one on jewelry. Oh what treasures I would hold in my hands then, aye?
J.
K,
You just gave me an idea. I was offering my Kumihimo Tut as a 25 page bound booklet. I was doing the printing and binding of it in my studio. Then my color laser printer broke down and I haven't got it fixed yet, so I'm holding off on listing it as a printed booklet. But when I do get my laser printer fixed, I think I'm going to print and bind 2 different booklets. One on lampworking, and one on jewelry. Oh what treasures I would hold in my hands then, aye?
J.
I love it!
I believe my tutorials are priced fairly. I offer them through LULU as well but it increases the price. Lulu charges something like $11 (if you include the additional shipping to me) to print each one but I thought that price was too high so I knocked a few dollars off of my profit so that people who want a printed, bound book would still be able to afford mine. Lulu's printing cost added to my jellyfish tutorial makes the price $29 that I thought was too high so I reduced my profit. I did everything I could to make people happy.
I paid $75 for Passing the Flame. I would have paid even more for a book that was all full of personally chosen lessons that I got to pick a la carte. A book full of ONLY what I wanted. Just like your binder full of hand chosen in-depth lessons on topics you were specifically interested in.
I never had a problem with people buying gift tutorials and I don't know of anyone else who did either. Buying a copy for yourself and then forwarding it to three of your friends is not the same as purchasing a gift for someone. LOL It's like buying an MP3 and then forwarding it to all your friends. You just stole from the seller, that's all. Seems pretty simple to me.
I haven't heard anyone say not to talk about skills learned from tutorials.
I think if you care about the author and respect them at all, you would be considerate of their feelings and their sales--but nobody can force you to do that. I know I'd appreciate it if nobody posted a free tutorial here at LE about how I specifically do my jellyfish beads but that is not only protecting ME. It is also protecting the people who actually PAID for the information.
The only real stink I've seen over sharing stuff or discussing tutorials openly came from buyers! People who were irritated that they paid money to learn something and then people were handing it around for free. That's not fair to anyone. I actually had buyers irritated with me for answering questions out in the open because people who didn't pay for the tutorial were getting clues.
Someone in this thread mentioned waiting for tutorials to go on sale before purchasing them. I think that is great. But I've heard others say that authors reducing the price of their tutorials really irritates them. They felt cheated that they paid more just because they were keen on getting it in a hurry. I call foul on that because everything in the market is that way. I buy milk for $4.00...the next day it goes on sale for $1.99...I think 'darn it'...but it doesn't change anything. Or the sofa I bought and two months later it was $400 less. You can't hold sales or price reductions against tutorial authors. Trust me- if I'm having a sale it's because I'm in trouble and need money- it's not because I'm trying to screw anyone over.
We are all peers here. We are supposed to be friendly and supportive of each other.
And yes---I did too sell my very best secret and design for $18. I didn't save the good stuff and sell off the lesser information. I'm not out for a quick buck at your expense. My tutorials are good, I deserve what I've profited from them and I stand behind them. They are a way for me to teach without having to leave my family. They are a way for other people to learn without having to leave their families.
I'm sorry, but no. I don't think anyone's tutorials are over priced. Only the seller can value their efforts, knowledge and personal investment. Only the buyer can choose whether it is worth it to them.
~~Mary
patienthand
2010-10-13, 4:24pm
well said Mary!!!!
That was very well put Mary. The concise clear explanation that you offer, as well as Kalera's and several others was exactly why I began this thread. I need to hear the whys of things sometimes. Your explanation helps me to understand, and I appreciate that. I will be more selective of the parts I print and bind!!
Doesn't anyone remember about a year ago or so when I started a thread, (could have been on WetCanvas) discussing the rules about sharing and selling tutorials? That was when someone responded to me that a person had bought several tutorials to give as Secret Santa gifts and was taken to task by the seller and the rank and file. I didn't get into names, so the specifics were never mentioned. That was the issue then, and the instance to which I was referring. And yes, honest to God, I have a tutorial that requests that I, as the buyer, do not share any tips found within the tute, and refer any questions about the technique back to the seller. Again, I don't share names, so I won't get any more detailed than this, but I assure you, the instances I cited were not apocryphal (sp).
Alot of you have been very kind in explaining your stance and I have a much better idea of what it must take to create a tutorial. I meant no disrespect.
When we made our goddess bead tut it was hours of writing, editing, taking photos, editing photos, screwing around with Word, which is a bitch of it's own. Then we filmed a video, edited the video and voiced it over. It was a lot of work. I don't think $18 is over charging for that work.
I don't think people who have never written a tutorial have any idea how much work goes into it. I've seen some tuts that aren't very long and don't look like they take much work to put together, but the writer has also put in possibly years in developing the techniques they use, also. That is part of the work you are paying for.
AKDesigns
2010-10-13, 10:50pm
Doesn't anyone remember about a year ago or so when I started a thread, (could have been on WetCanvas) discussing the rules about sharing and selling tutorials? That was when someone responded to me that a person had bought several tutorials to give as Secret Santa gifts and was taken to task by the seller and the rank and file. I didn't get into names, so the specifics were never mentioned. That was the issue then, and the instance to which I was referring.
If you are talking about the Secret Santa fiasco of a couple of years ago...someone was just sending her tutorials off to others as gifts without paying for them. In other words, she didn't contact the tutorial writer and purchase a tutorial for "Trudy" and ask that it get emailed to her. Instead she took tutorials she had purchased for herself and emailed them off to several other people. She never purchased them to give as gifts.
Hayley
2010-10-13, 10:54pm
I didn't even know you offered them! I don't use that much silver glass so I'm unlikely to want them for myself, but I might want them for reference or for eye candy.
It sure is a great inspiration book for eye candy, Kalera. I think SE5 has 268 beads!
I like the option. I didn't know about the bound books, and I do have one of your earlier se books. Looks like you have covered every base! Hayley, can you share what the upfront cost is with Lulu for those who are interested?
Thanks
The cost is dependent on the number of pages. We then add our markup which equals the value of the pdf of that particular SE. Lulu then adds a fee based on the percentage of our markup. It's not inexpensive (especially since the SEs are big books) but if you factor in the ink/toner cost to print a hundred pages on your home inkjet printer in high resolution, it's worth it, imho. And as mentioned before, unlike its pdf counter part, since it's a book, you can resell it.
ETA: For tutorial authors, please note that the distribution of the revenue earned from lulu.com is done something like 45 days after each quarter ends. So if a book is sold, say, last week which is the beginning of Q4, you won't get your money from lulu until mid February of next year!
It sure is a great inspiration book for eye candy, Kalera. I think SE5 has 268 beads!
The cost is dependent on the number of pages. We then add our markup which equals the value of the pdf of that particular SE. Lulu then adds a fee based on the percentage of our markup. It's not inexpensive (especially since the SEs are big books) but if you factor in the ink/toner cost to print a hundred pages on your home inkjet printer in high resolution, it's worth it, imho. And as mentioned before, unlike its pdf counter part, since it's a book, you can resell it.
ETA: For tutorial authors, please note that the distribution of the revenue earned from lulu.com is done something like 45 days after each quarter ends. So if a book is sold, say, last week which is the beginning of Q4, you won't get your money from lulu until mid February of next year!
We'll print and sell your book if you let us use your money, interest free, for months!!! What a racket.
janetcameron
2010-10-14, 3:46am
For me, the tutorials are a way to learn a specific technique or bead style - and they often include other tricks that I didn't know - without spending a lot of money for a class. I think they are worth the cost, but everyone has to make their own decision about this.
patienthand
2010-10-14, 5:08am
I know other tut writers do not feel the same as I do, but here is my personal take on what I think is fair usage.... I dont mind if you make a personal printed copy for your own usage. I dont care if you learn the technique from me and then teach another. I dont mind if the gals come over to play and you show them the tutorial, although I dont personally do that with the tuts I own, because some folks have asked that not be done. What I do mind and think is stealing is if you transfer a copy of the tut to another person by email, flash drive, a printed copy etc etc. I dont mind if you make and sell items learned in my tut, more power to you,there is room for everyone to make a buck. I no longer earn my living from glass, but even when I worked full time I could NEVER make enough ornaments to fill the orders I had at christmas season. I think if I have sold the information, taught someone, they paid for learning how to make that item and have a perfect right to sell the hell out of the items they make using the information they learned from me.
That was very well put Mary. The concise clear explanation that you offer, as well as Kalera's and several others was exactly why I began this thread.
Thank you- I'm trying to be more level-headed when I respond to these tutorial threads. Sometimes it is hard to have to keep defending myself, but I just have to remember that people who haven't actually made a tutorial don't really know what it's like to be on that end of the stick.
Doesn't anyone remember about a year ago or so when I started a thread, (could have been on WetCanvas) discussing the rules about sharing and selling tutorials? That was when someone responded to me that a person had bought several tutorials to give as Secret Santa gifts and was taken to task by the seller and the rank and file.
Oh, yes. I absolutely remember that. And that person was NOT buying gift tutorials. They bought one copy and freely sent it around to people on the secret santa list. Basically they gave away hundreds of dollars worth of tutorials and it only cost them the original single purchase. If she had bought my jellyfish for $18 and then sent it to 10 people who had my tutorial on their wish list- they basically cost ME $180. That is not the same as purchasing gifts for others. There were many other people who did it legitimately. They purchased tutorials, contacted the sellers with the email address of the person they wanted the tutorial delivered to and that was the right way to do it.
I didn't get into names, so the specifics were never mentioned. That was the issue then, and the instance to which I was referring. And yes, honest to God, I have a tutorial that requests that I, as the buyer, do not share any tips found within the tute, and refer any questions about the technique back to the seller. Again, I don't share names, so I won't get any more detailed than this, but I assure you, the instances I cited were not apocryphal (sp).
I still don't feel like that request is unreasonable UNLESS---the tutorial is about a topic that is so generic you could find the information for free somewhere else. Like if you bought a tutorial on how to make stacked dot beads- you purchased it to get a specific person's input on dot beads, but the process itself is generally known and easily found elsewhere. A person can't be proprietary about that. My guess is that the tutorial you are referring to is NOT something generic and protecting the seller and the other buyers who actually paid is not unreasonable. I don't understand why you would take issue with that. Someone sells you a secret, asks you not to tell it around and that feels wrong? I don't get that.
Alot of you have been very kind in explaining your stance and I have a much better idea of what it must take to create a tutorial. I meant no disrespect.
I guess I just feel like electronic data is not for everyone. Some people really love to have a solid book in their hands and that is great. I love books too. (Like some people LOVE audio books and I can't stand them.) I think tutorials fill a niche. For a nominal investment you can learn targeted skills. No- you can't resell them, but so what? If you learned what you paid to learn then you got your money's worth and should be happy. If you DIDN'T learn what you thought you were going to learn- now THAT'S a problem and should be brought directly to the tutorial author. They should be willing to do what it takes to satisfy the buyers. If you are sitting there with a binder full of tutorials that you are sorry you paid for, then I'd say you need to be pickier about the ones you buy.
:waving:
~~Mary
If you are talking about the Secret Santa fiasco of a couple of years ago...someone was just sending her tutorials off to others as gifts without paying for them. In other words, she didn't contact the tutorial writer and purchase a tutorial for "Trudy" and ask that it get emailed to her. Instead she took tutorials she had purchased for herself and emailed them off to several other people. She never purchased them to give as gifts.
Oh. that wasn't how it was presented to me, but of course things get altered from time to time. I understand how that could be a problem.
I guess I just feel like electronic data is not for everyone. Some people really love to have a solid book in their hands and that is great. I love books too. (Like some people LOVE audio books and I can't stand them.) I think tutorials fill a niche. For a nominal investment you can learn targeted skills. No- you can't resell them, but so what? If you learned what you paid to learn then you got your money's worth and should be happy. If you DIDN'T learn what you thought you were going to learn- now THAT'S a problem and should be brought directly to the tutorial author. They should be willing to do what it takes to satisfy the buyers. If you are sitting there with a binder full of tutorials that you are sorry you paid for, then I'd say you need to be pickier about the ones you buy.
Mary, Somehow we came to this topic throught the backdoor. In the beginning post I said clearly that I love my tutorials. I like learning from them and as I can't afford the travel and class thing, it works for me. Read the opening post again. I just think/thought that tutes that are getting up to $30 are pricey because of the home publishing factor. I guess I thought everyone bound theirs like me. I am still going to buy tutorials, from time to time. I just won't print and bind them all! I am not, repeat NOT saying I am sitting here with a binder full of tutorials that I regret owning. That was not and never has been the subject of this thread. And I live for me audiobooks!!!
Polgarra
2010-10-14, 7:31am
I have a question/comment about the part regarding 'Not discussing' the information. I would say that putting the information in an online 'discussion' is different than a verbal 'discussion'. An online discussion can be open to anyone as long as the post exists. It acts like its own tutorial. If I wrote a tutorial I would feel differently about those two types of discussions. Do you think that is what they could mean? Or maybe some tutorial writers could clarify how they feel?
PatientHand, Thank you for the clarification on your position which I think it totally reasonable.
Melodie, ok I understand. I guess I just got a feeling that you were looking at your binder and taking a mental tally. Like if you have 15 tutorials in there, at (round number) $20 each...that book DID cost a pretty penny. LOL I know you liked all the tutorials you bought, but that you think all combined the price was higher than what they are worth. I guess that is where I got my idea that you were sorry you purchased some of them. Maybe it isn't that you need to be picky about which ones you buy---just which pages you print. LOL
There have been several mentions (in other threads) about offering a new format for the digital tutorials that have one or two 'for print' pages that have shortened text and images of tricky steps that can be used AT the torch and don't take up as much table space or ink/paper to print. I think it's a wonderful idea. Offer the full length tutorial for reading and learning- then have a quicky printable sheet with the major points featured. It would be both economical AND practical. It would help with your issue immensely. I hope we start seeing that a lot with new tutorials.
~~Mary
We'll print and sell your book if you let us use your money, interest free, for months!!! What a racket.
You can elect the monthly option via PayPal with all your tax information submitted to lulu. This option's lag time is about 30 days. I opted for the paper option (check by mail) so I don't have to submit any tax info and paypal fees (doubt lulu will send the money as "personal").
I have a question/comment about the part regarding 'Not discussing' the information. I would say that putting the information in an online 'discussion' is different than a verbal 'discussion'. An online discussion can be open to anyone as long as the post exists. It acts like its own tutorial. If I wrote a tutorial I would feel differently about those two types of discussions. Do you think that is what they could mean? Or maybe some tutorial writers could clarify how they feel?
PatientHand, Thank you for the clarification on your position which I think it totally reasonable.
I think this is completely reasonable to ask buyers not to discuss the contents of a tut online when it's something really unique and proprietary. Where I have an issue with it is when someone asks a question about using a particular glass or achieving a particular look that is something many people have come up with on their own, sometimes even before the tutorial author began lampworking, and someone in the thread automatically refers the questioner to the tut. There's a definite sense that it would be gauche for anyone to answer the question after that, and also I think a bit of fear that they will be accused of "not supporting the community" or of depriving the tut author of income, if they answer the question. I feel like this is wrong, and that people who worked out a look or technique on their own, independently, should feel free to answer questions about it if they want to, even if someone else wrote a tut on a similar look or technique. I don't mean it's OK to reverse-engineer someone's design and then telling everyone how to do it, just to be clear. More like, if someone wrote a tut on faceting, would it then be wrong for Andrea (who taught me and has been faceting for ages) or for me, or any of the people who have been faceting beads for a long time, to answer questions about faceting? I certainly don't think so. Yet, there has come to be a bit of a sense that whoever writes a tutorial on a particular subject or technique then "owns" the right to field all questions on that subject. That is neither right nor fair to the lampworking community and all of us within it who have spent decades learning and sharing.
Mary,
I agree with you! A printable page would be most excellent. And I, in all honesty, have to admit that one or two of the tutorials I bought, I am sorry for, but not as much as the $80 skinny jeans in my closet that I can no longer sqeeze into!! Sometimes a tutorial sounds like it may have a process that I want to know, and I impulsively jump in. My problem, no one elses!!
But printing only essentials would be great!! I stopped printing the cover and Inspiration pages. As pretty as they are, I just have to enjoy them on the computer. I have begun to reformat pages, keeping only the photos I think I need, and eliminating unecessary spaces, page returns, etc. They aren't as pretty to look at, but cut way back on my ink costs. I also have a new printer that duplexes the pages so I have cut back on paper by half. I feel so green! Anyway, with all the changes, I put in, sometimes I just feel that I wish I could just buy a book!!! THAT's what started this whole thing. but, because the boundaries shift on proper tutorial etiquette I think it is a very hot button for alot of people, and that's why I think the discussions have merit.
My skin is pretty thick, but sometimes when the hair on my arms starts to singe, I get a bit defensive. Sorry if I snapped at you! I really do value your input! I hope that the suggestions of "print pages", Lulu publishing, etc. will be read by those who are just now creating new tutorials!!
It is torch time! See you later!!
Melodie, ok I understand. I guess I just got a feeling that you were looking at your binder and taking a mental tally. Like if you have 15 tutorials in there, at (round number) $20 each...that book DID cost a pretty penny. LOL I know you liked all the tutorials you bought, but that you think all combined the price was higher than what they are worth. I guess that is where I got my idea that you were sorry you purchased some of them. Maybe it isn't that you need to be picky about which ones you buy---just which pages you print. LOL
There have been several mentions (in other threads) about offering a new format for the digital tutorials that have one or two 'for print' pages that have shortened text and images of tricky steps that can be used AT the torch and don't take up as much table space or ink/paper to print. I think it's a wonderful idea. Offer the full length tutorial for reading and learning- then have a quicky printable sheet with the major points featured. It would be both economical AND practical. It would help with your issue immensely. I hope we start seeing that a lot with new tutorials.
~~Mary
Wow, on re-reading my above message, I realize that I am seriously in the habit of over-using the exclaimation point. Note to self!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL, I am guilty of using the words 'just' and 'really' a LOT. To the point where I've learned to go back through and remove all of them before I hit post.
I just did it to this post. Really.
LOL
~~Mary
My friend and I both have a pile of educaton, and training, and have worked in eductional settings. We both agree that as soon as we set down to email at the computer, all our training in grammer, puncuation, spelling and sentence structure goes right out the window. Perhaps we can blame it on the current trend to reduce all thought to initials.
WTF, LMAO...
mad hatter
2010-10-15, 5:29pm
I buy tutorials. Not all of them, but the ones I can't figure out how they do that type tuts. That being said I like books better. I would buy a book with 10 tuts that only had 1 I really wanted. Maybe its age, maybe its the binding of the feel in my hand, maybe its that it feels more permanent . I love the booklets by James Kerwin, I have them all even though I have no plan on doing some of those techniques ever. They seem like a collection to me. I would love it if these tutorials were booklet for 3-5 in each. I would buy them all. But since they are online tuts I will pick and chose techniques I want.
Donna T.
2010-10-15, 6:25pm
I don't understand why people print out every tutorial, either.
I don't either. I keep a folder on my laptop and take the laptop out to my studio. If I didn't have the laptop then I would just take some shorthand notes to the torch. Which is what I do when I'm surfing LE or the net and come across something I want to try. I keep a notepad by my chair in the living room for just said notes.
Kaleidoglass
2010-10-15, 11:28pm
I'm just pointing out that without the costs involved in actual bookmaking, it seems that a tutorial should be less expensive than an actual book.
I agree! I'm the author of a book. I spent months writing, photographing, proofing, designing and laying out the book, registering, and handing digital files to a publisher to print it out. My royalties are less than $4 per book. I spent the same or probably more time on the book than anyone on these online tutorials, since everything had to be absolutely perfect for the publisher.
So, for the amount of time and money I had to lay out for my book, I think the online tutorials are over priced.
Nancy, I'm sorry but just because your publisher is making more off your work than you are doesn't mean my work is overpriced.
Someone spends $18 with me and learns how to make jellyfish beads. Someone spends $20 plus shipping plus waiting on your book and learns how to do wirework with glass beads. The only difference is that I get $18 and you get $4. Not a big motivator for me to change the way I'm doing it and frankly I would hope that the buyers would be happier about me getting paid than a publisher they don't know.
This is just two different ways of doing business that are independent of each other. What about all the people going crazy over the Kindles? Obviously people don't mind digital reading/learning.
When we buy a book, are we really buying it to own bound printed pages, or are we buying it for what we learn/enjoy/experience from those pages? I love books. If you could see my house you would know just how much I love books. There isn't a flat surface in my house that isn't covered in books. I read them numerous times. I love the feel of them and the owning of them.
Most of all though, I love what's IN them. The characters, the experiences, the lessons. Digital files still have all of that. Just no pages--unless you print them yourself and then voila...now you have a book like Melodie's.
Let's look at Lapidary Journal for a minute. What is it like $8 for a copy of their magazine all full of great articles and tutorials and advertising and basically awesome eye candy.
Go to their site and try to purchase a digital download of just ONE article from their magazine and it costs $4.00. In this case--that 'book' costs WAY less than the digital files and people pay it. I know because I order them all the time.
My price does not depend on how much you get in royalties for your book. My price depends on the market and what I felt was fair.
~~Mary
VivianLampwork
2010-10-16, 7:21am
The only way to keep a technique secret is to never share it with anyone. Once you make a tutorial on a technique, it's out there. Unfortunately, some people are going to share their tutorial, show other people how to do it, etc.. It's similar to loaning a book or dvd to someone.
AKDesigns
2010-10-16, 8:29am
Someone spends $18 with me and learns how to make jellyfish beads. Someone spends $20 plus shipping plus waiting on your book and learns how to do wirework with glass beads. The only difference is that I get $18 and you get $4. Not a big motivator for me to change the way I'm doing it and frankly I would hope that the buyers would be happier about me getting paid than a publisher they don't know.
My price does not depend on how much you get in royalties for your book. My price depends on the market and what I felt was fair.
^ This.
FishBulb
2010-10-16, 12:59pm
I think this is completely reasonable to ask buyers not to discuss the contents of a tut online when it's something really unique and proprietary. Where I have an issue with it is when someone asks a question about using a particular glass or achieving a particular look that is something many people have come up with on their own, sometimes even before the tutorial author began lampworking, and someone in the thread automatically refers the questioner to the tut. There's a definite sense that it would be gauche for anyone to answer the question after that, and also I think a bit of fear that they will be accused of "not supporting the community" or of depriving the tut author of income, if they answer the question. I feel like this is wrong, and that people who worked out a look or technique on their own, independently, should feel free to answer questions about it if they want to, even if someone else wrote a tut on a similar look or technique. I don't mean it's OK to reverse-engineer someone's design and then telling everyone how to do it, just to be clear. More like, if someone wrote a tut on faceting, would it then be wrong for Andrea (who taught me and has been faceting for ages) or for me, or any of the people who have been faceting beads for a long time, to answer questions about faceting? I certainly don't think so. Yet, there has come to be a bit of a sense that whoever writes a tutorial on a particular subject or technique then "owns" the right to field all questions on that subject. That is neither right nor fair to the lampworking community and all of us within it who have spent decades learning and sharing.
I know what you mean. On the torch the other day I was experimenting with something and realized I came up with an effect that is currently made available by another person, via tutorial. Since I hadn't bought that tut and ended up figuring this out myself, I felt I'd better be smart and not ever show the bead on here. :hide:
That seems to be one of the quirks of this community. I haven't been here long enough for it to bother me, but I am certainly careful with my postings because I've seen that it doesn't take much to step on toes.
Nancy, I'm sorry but just because your publisher is making more off your work than you are doesn't mean my work is overpriced.
Someone spends $18 with me and learns how to make jellyfish beads. Someone spends $20 plus shipping plus waiting on your book and learns how to do wirework with glass beads. The only difference is that I get $18 and you get $4. Not a big motivator for me to change the way I'm doing it and frankly I would hope that the buyers would be happier about me getting paid than a publisher they don't know.
This is just two different ways of doing business that are independent of each other. What about all the people going crazy over the Kindles? Obviously people don't mind digital reading/learning.
When we buy a book, are we really buying it to own bound printed pages, or are we buying it for what we learn/enjoy/experience from those pages? I love books. If you could see my house you would know just how much I love books. There isn't a flat surface in my house that isn't covered in books. I read them numerous times. I love the feel of them and the owning of them.
Most of all though, I love what's IN them. The characters, the experiences, the lessons. Digital files still have all of that. Just no pages--unless you print them yourself and then voila...now you have a book like Melodie's.
Let's look at Lapidary Journal for a minute. What is it like $8 for a copy of their magazine all full of great articles and tutorials and advertising and basically awesome eye candy.
Go to their site and try to purchase a digital download of just ONE article from their magazine and it costs $4.00. In this case--that 'book' costs WAY less than the digital files and people pay it. I know because I order them all the time.
My price does not depend on how much you get in royalties for your book. My price depends on the market and what I felt was fair.
~~Mary
I agree with this - if profits are to be had, I much prefer the lampworker get it !
PittsGlass
2010-10-16, 5:57pm
This debate makes me realize that the trade books future is probably digital. The publisher-writer relationship of days past is becoming less and less necessary unless you are writing on a topic that is intended to please hundreds of thousands, or a large coffee table book. This does not make the material any more or less valuable. Presentation is the variable.
Even when I buy a printer or camera, the manual is on disk or via website as a .PDF. It saves $ and trees.
Carols Glass
2010-10-17, 8:01am
Can you imagine if the original book Dots was in tutorial form?
I've been thinking about the amount of money people are willing to pay for that book now that it is out of print.
I believe that it is the invaluable information inside of Dots that people are after and willing to pay that much for and nothing else.
It is the same with tutorials. How badly do we want the information? For me, I want it badly enough to pay what the authors of the tutorials are asking and I don't think it is too much but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Laura B
2010-10-17, 8:11am
I agree! I'm the author of a book. I spent months writing, photographing, proofing, designing and laying out the book, registering, and handing digital files to a publisher to print it out. My royalties are less than $4 per book. I spent the same or probably more time on the book than anyone on these online tutorials, since everything had to be absolutely perfect for the publisher.
So, for the amount of time and money I had to lay out for my book, I think the online tutorials are over priced.
It's all about choices.
You chose to go the route you did and get paid $4 per book.
Others choose to do online tutorials and get paid whatever it is they're charging for them.
The customers choose to buy or not buy a book OR a tutorial based on how much they want the item compared with how much it costs.
As we've seen by some of the responses, there are definitely customers who won't pay for tutorials in the $20-$25 range. But apparently there are enough customers who will because $20-$25 tutorials are selling.
Perhaps with a book deal, you get the publisher to promote your work, thereby bringing in more customers and making the smaller profit worth more in the end.
I hope everyone's happy with their choices and doesn't envy the other guy.
obsessionwoman
2010-10-17, 9:23am
Many years ago information just was not available...if you were foolish enough to ask you were thrown such a look...the look that you see in your dreams...when someone finally gave up some info. only the well-off could afford it....I am so thankful that artists
are writing tutorials...if I gleen just one piece of information I consider the tutorial worth
the price......just a thought from an old lady who was there
Kalera
2010-10-17, 11:44am
One of the major differences, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is that in terms of simple compensation for time spent making the tutorial (not even weighing the other factors, like the value of the information itself) most tutorial authors will certainly be fairly compensated for their time IF they sell at least 100 copies, which is by no means assured. It's a gamble. I would guess that most sell well above 100 copies, but even so, their market is not as large as a book publisher's market. A self-publishing author must do all their own promotion, whereas a traditionally published author has a publishing company to do promotion for them. A traditionally published author may only get $4/book, but they have the potential for selling thousands of copies, rather than hundreds.
I am so pleased to hear so many varied opinions. Sadly, I wind up still on the fence because everyones' POV seems so reasonable. I guess we all have to decide what we need to have to grow and learn as artists.
If I get a tute that has alot of steps, (one I can think of has 36 steps), I have to have a copy of it in my studio, in order to refer back to it as I work. Sorry to say the memory isn't quite what it was back in the day. My studio is so small, I wouldn't want to take my laptop out. No place to set it where hot glass isn't flying.
My point here, I guess is that the many options in format allow each of us to tailor-make our learning experience to fit our needs. What a wonderful thing! Imagine if we could still only communicate about this craft by aprenticeship. So many of us wouldn't be making beads at all!
MistyCherie
2010-10-19, 8:04am
I recently bought a tutorial. I don't buy them often, especially since I'm not sure when I will be able to start making beads again. I actually had thought that was my first one, and then I remembered I bought some of Corina's printed ones a long time ago. I actually had an inkling of how to do the process (Amy's Storming method), but wanted to A) Support an artist I valued B) Learn the "for sure" method of achieving an effect I realllllly liked, and C) Not waste my time/money/supplies trying to figure out that exact technique.
Sometimes it is worth knowing the knowledge in advance. I will not waste my time or my precious silver glass attempting to figure out her technique for storming, when I could learn the technique and develop my own artistic path from that knowledge. How much is your time (and supplies used) worth to you? And it's not just the "here's how I do X" things that you learn. Many tutorials offer insight to other methods/ideas/variations on how to do things.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a tutorial to replicate another artist's "trademark" type bead. I'd buy it to learn their thoughts and processes of how they work, what they do when they work, what they combine together to achieve that interesting effect, etc.
We pay for knowledge in so many ways. College? Training for work? Time/supplies spent? Frustration?
I think people don't see the value in tutorials (some people) because once they KNOW, they're like "Well duh! Why didn't I realize that?!" and then think "Man, I wished I hadn't spent the money on that. I could have bought X/glass/whatever instead." But, I think that is the wrong way to think of it. Knowledge is precious, and many excellent artists are sharing precious information with us. They took the time/money/supplies/frustration and figured it out. I think it's worth it and if I could afford to, would buy any/all tutorials (with techniques that appealed to me) in order to further MY knowledge and say "Hey, thanks - I appreciate you as an artist!"
Kaleidoglass
2010-10-19, 8:09am
It's all about choices.
You chose to go the route you did and get paid $4 per book.
Others choose to do online tutorials and get paid whatever it is they're charging for them.
Please don't take this as a snide remark, but.... Frankly, when I wrote the book, LE didn't have the online tutorials for a fee yet. If I had to do it over again, I would have offered it online at a very discounted price to LE members as well in book form also. In a way, even though the royalties are only $4, the book is sold in book stores and bead stores throughout the country and on amazon.com reaching more people. So, its nice getting that steady royalty check every month.
So, I'm happy with my choice. I'm making money! Like I said, the only thing I would have changed was to offer it for a fee (at a very discounted fee) to LE members.
Laura B
2010-10-19, 9:02am
Please don't take this as a snide remark, but.... Frankly, when I wrote the book, LE didn't have the online tutorials for a fee yet. If I had to do it over again, I would have offered it online at a very discounted price to LE members as well in book form also. In a way, even though the royalties are only $4, the book is sold in book stores and bead stores throughout the country and on amazon.com reaching more people. So, its nice getting that steady royalty check every month.
So, I'm happy with my choice. I'm making money! Like I said, the only thing I would have changed was to offer it for a fee (at a very discounted fee) to LE members.
Why would I take that as a snide remark. You're saying precisely what I said... that sometimes you take a smaller cut per book sold in exchange for more distribution.
You only quoted a portion of my post... there was a sentence following that said: "Perhaps with a book deal, you get the publisher to promote your work, thereby bringing in more customers and making the smaller profit worth more in the end."
Although I have no idea what you mean by "LE didn't have the online tutorials for a fee yet." Lampwork Etc is not the hub of tutorials. Tutorials exists and have existed for decades everywhere on the internet.
Kalera
2010-10-19, 11:40am
Just an aside, but no, actually, the internet has not had online pay-tutorials for decades. The internet has existed for decades, but practical, commercial online payment systems and the visual web are less than 20 years old. The .pdf format was invented in 1993, and Paypal has only existed since 2000. Ebooks have technically been around since 1971, but really, ebooks and pay tutorials are only about five years old as a commercially viable phenomenon.
Laura B
2010-10-20, 7:21am
Just an aside, but no, actually, the internet has not had online pay-tutorials for decades. The internet has existed for decades, but practical, commercial online payment systems and the visual web are less than 20 years old. The .pdf format was invented in 1993, and Paypal has only existed since 2000. Ebooks have technically been around since 1971, but really, ebooks and pay tutorials are only about five years old as a commercially viable phenomenon.
Okay then "years" not "decades"... my point was that LE is certainly not the only place that has tutorials.
I'm coming to this thread a bit late, but I figured I'd offer my two cents seeing as I've been paying most of my bills for the last year with money made from selling tutorials...
1. Digital vs. Printed - I offer both, and I sell about the same amount of both. A lot of people like them in digital format, but a lot also like them in printed format. I sell both of them for the same price (just have to pay shipping on the printed version).
2. Price - I struggle with price as well. I set my prices at what I thought was fair ($32.50), and apparently they have been well received at that price. That being said, each of my books has at least 8 different techniques in them. I can see that if it was a single tutorial it may be considered expensive to some, but to me if I wanted to learn a technique, $30 or $40 would still be a lot cheaper than taking a $150 class to learn something.
3. Sharing information - Once you buy a book from me, that information is now yours. Do with it as you wish. Obviously, I don't approve of someone making copies of the book itself and giving them away or reselling them, but if you want to make something you learned from the book and sell it, go ahead. Want to teach it? Be my guest. I'd appreciate it if you would mention where you learned it, but that's not a big deal. If the information in the books was something that was a close guarded secret, I wouldn't have put it in the book in the first place. In my opinion, if you are the type that wants to keep your technique a secret, don't put it into writing or teach it to anyone.
Okay then "years" not "decades"... my point was that LE is certainly not the only place that has tutorials.
Not to be needlessly pedantic, but I think that her only point was that this particular marketing venue was not yet available when her book was published, or she might have used it. :)
mnoelker
2010-10-20, 5:40pm
The point that isn't being emphasized here enough imho is that the tutorial author is not simply being compensated for the time it took for them to create the tutorial. I am paying for someone to teach me and I expect that a lot of hours behind the scenes at the torch were put in to bring that teacher to the point where he or she has a technique or set of techniques that will enrich my skill set. I am more than willing to compensate another artist for sharing their skills with me that were hard won by hours at the torch. If I buy a tutorial on a technique I don't have to spend those hours at torch, for instance, figuring out just how to work a certain silver glass in the flame. That author has already spent the time experimenting and gone through a lot of glass to figure it out and is now willing to share it with me. I think we need to place a good value on another's willingness and ability to share knowledge. That's something I am happy to pay for.
Vicki B.
2010-10-20, 6:10pm
I have purchased a lot of tuts and never regretted the cost. On the other hand, I have not been able to take classes with the exception of a two day beginners course. I realized reading this thread that I think of the tuts as being more like classes than like books - or maybe a combination of the two. They are usually more conversational and, in their details, more like watching the author walk you through the techniques. It's true that books are often less $$ per page, but most books have some basic chapters in order to set up the information. Tuts seem more focused and dense in a lot of cases.
Since I think of the tuts as a substitute for classes I am unable to take, the price seems very reasonable to me. As far as sharing the information, I wouldn't want to pay for a class and go through the cost of travel and so forth and then "spill" the teacher's techniques usually developed with much experimentation and hard work. I surely would hate to see beadmakers stop sharing through the tuts - or classes - but who would want to have their hard work becoming common knowledge with no payment?
I've purchased hundreds of dollars of tutorials. I can count on one hand the tutorials I purchased that I feel were actually worth the money. I agree most are overpriced especially with all the limitations some tutorial writers put on their work. I personally hold no one responsible for the money I've spent. I freely purchased them. That being said, I appreciate the work that the writers put into their tutorials. I'm sure they all believe their tutorial is worth every penny and some are, but others aren't. Unfortunately, there isn't a return policy for tutorials that are bad. Also, on the subject of sharing tutorials. I don't share my tutorials for one reason and one reason only. I feel I paid for the tutorial and any lampworking friend of mine that wants to learn the technique should pay the price I had to pay. I keep my tutorials to myself. It has nothing at all to do with the "for you eyes only" statement which is absolutely insane.
jonibird
2010-10-20, 6:40pm
hmmm I would think the same rules would apply to tutorials as they do books.
Would anyone say "I paid to learn how to make those brownies from that cookbook and if you want to know how to make them you should have to buy the cookbook"?
No.. but there *are* recipes that have been jealously guarded for years and some even many decades...
Speaking of which.. I was born and (partially) raised in Buffalo, NY where my mother, due to a random stroke of luck, happened to hang out with the kids of the family who owned the "Anchor Bar"... they are the folks who invented Buffalo Wings (it's kind of a cool story too.. much like the way the Caesar salad came to be).
I have the actual and original recipe for "Buffalo" wings.. although since it (obviously) isn't exactly a secret that might not seem like a big deal... nonetheless.. they're one of my favorite things to eat!
But due to the fact that (IMNSHO) though there is a food called that and served nearly everywhere, it is so different I feel sad for anyone who hasn't had a chance to taste the "real deal".
Do I have a point here? (amazingly enough, yes, I do ;)).
Just because someone (all across America) got big chunks of the recipe right.. they missed a couple of key ingredients and.. well.. they end up (most of them) pretty far afield from the real thing.
In other words.. someone can tell you about a recipe.. be it for brownies, chicken wings or a certain color of glass.. doesn't mean that you might not likely discover much more depth, flavor, and interest still by visiting that site, spot, or tutorial for yourself.
One doesn't take as much away from the other (I don't suspect) as much as a lot of people seem to believe that it would.
<whew>
See? Not really off topic at all! :lol:
~Rachel
(anybody who loves buffalo wings feel free to PM me for the recipe though ;)
jaccarney
2010-10-20, 9:34pm
anything purchased is a "what the market will pay" kind of thing.
apples, real estate, tutorials, clothing, on and on.
one person will spend $300 on a purse and another won't spend more than $30 so there are markets to support each.
there is no "this is too much to pay" or "this is not nearly enough to pay" each of us will pay according to the value we personally place on the item we're purchasing.
when a bunch of folks decide they'll pay X for an item, then the price magically becomes X. if folks will pay more, the price increases. if folks won't pay that much, the price magically falls. if the market is large enough it can support many price points (such as the $300 and $30 purse). if the market is smaller, the price points dwindle to a single or couple only- this is where the lampworking tutorials are currently.
of course folks also take little hints from industry and hucksters telling them what price they 'should' pay which influences markets - but that's not industry/hucksters' fault - only the fault of the folks that listen to the hints and make them so.
my opinion:
- sell for a price that you feel comfortable taking from others (in all things - not just this topic) not what you think they'll pay or what the market sells for. you've got to live with yourself, after all.
- buy at a price you're comfortable paying, regardless of public opinion. if you're not comfortable paying so much; don't buy - there are a bazillion alternatives for everything. if you feel the item is worth more than is being charged; tip the seller up to the value you place on the item. never take advantage, never get taken.
as far as grammar in online posts - we have many ways of speaking in our daily lives. casual, formal, aggressive, submissive, regional, etc. depending on the situation at hand. for me, online posts are quick and super casual blabbering the same way i would chat with my best bud when we're both talking at the same time without regard to grammar (or in many cases; content) in any shape or form. i tend to picture folks that criticize forum post grammar as snotty little brats that sit on the edge of their seat just slobbering for the opportunity to jab at someone with a sharp stick so everyone will look at them, hehehehe.
now, grammar/spelling in a tutorial or document setting? well, that's a great big horse of a different color. be proud of what you produce, put some work into it.
:) jac
chrissij
2010-10-21, 6:26am
No.. but there *are* recipes that have been jealously guarded for years and some even many decades...
I make what I refer to as "New Orleans White Wedding Cake" for any and all "bring a dish" get togethers. I've been asked COUNTLESS times for my recipe. I could tell them, "It's from a box. Pillsbury white cake mix. Just add two capfuls of pure almond flavoring" and put crushed pineapple between the layers. That's what it is, but there's more to it than just the basics.
I learned, quite accidentally, 'cause I f'd up, how to make a better cake, from a store bought mix. How you mix things, and in what order, makes a difference. Who knew?
I learned how to keep the edges from getting crusty while waiting for the cake to cool before frosting it from a carrot cake recipe...slightly modified, of course.
I also have those silver cloth cake pan wraps that you soak in water before putting them around your pans. They keep the cake level, and, I think, moister. Because they insulate the pan, I can take the cake out of the oven a few minutes early, while it's certain to be moist, and it will finish baking in the pan.
My icing has also evolved over the years. Mom always used 6 tablespoons of Crisco, powdered sugar, almond flavoring and whole milk. I use 4 tablespoons of Crisco, 2 tablespoons of unsalted butter, almond flavoring, and evaporated milk. Mine's better. So...what does this "boil down to"? ;)
You can have the ingredients, and the basic "how to" instructions to follow, but without the trial by error knowledge, or the correct tools, you won't get the same results. It's up to each of us, personally, to decide whether or not we think the monetary expenditure is worth it. Think it is? Go for it. Think it isn't? Don't.
Polgarra
2010-10-21, 7:12am
I still think that there should be a review system for Tutorials. Like on amazon where you can give it _ out of 5 stars and talk about what it contained (i.e. I felt there was 1 unique technique or there was a lot of typos or not enough pictures) That way people could have an idea of whether or not they want to spend the money.
Maybe I will make a website for that =)
moondanse
2010-10-21, 7:55am
I make what I refer to as "New Orleans White Wedding Cake" for any and all "bring a dish" get togethers. I've been asked COUNTLESS times for my recipe. I could tell them, "It's from a box. Pillsbury white cake mix. Just add two capfuls of pure almond flavoring" and put crushed pineapple between the layers. That's what it is, but there's more to it than just the basics.
I learned, quite accidentally, 'cause I f'd up, how to make a better cake, from a store bought mix. How you mix things, and in what order, makes a difference. Who knew?
I learned how to keep the edges from getting crusty while waiting for the cake to cool before frosting it from a carrot cake recipe...slightly modified, of course.
I also have those silver cloth cake pan wraps that you soak in water before putting them around your pans. They keep the cake level, and, I think, moister. Because they insulate the pan, I can take the cake out of the oven a few minutes early, while it's certain to be moist, and it will finish baking in the pan.
My icing has also evolved over the years. Mom always used 6 tablespoons of Crisco, powdered sugar, almond flavoring and whole milk. I use 4 tablespoons of Crisco, 2 tablespoons of unsalted butter, almond flavoring, and evaporated milk. Mine's better. So...what does this "boil down to"? ;)
You can have the ingredients, and the basic "how to" instructions to follow, but without the trial by error knowledge, or the correct tools, you won't get the same results. It's up to each of us, personally, to decide whether or not we think the monetary expenditure is worth it. Think it is? Go for it. Think it isn't? Don't.
What wraps? I've never heard of them. I need a clue, or a link, pls. ;-)
Bake Even Strips by Wilton...http://www.wilton.com/store/site/product.cfm?id=3E30D620-475A-BAC0-592117323818A1AA&killnav=1
moondanse
2010-10-21, 8:18am
Bake Even Strips by Wilton...http://www.wilton.com/store/site/product.cfm?id=3E30D620-475A-BAC0-592117323818A1AA&killnav=1
Thank you! They look great.
The point that isn't being emphasized here enough imho is that the tutorial author is not simply being compensated for the time it took for them to create the tutorial. I am paying for someone to teach me and I expect that a lot of hours behind the scenes at the torch were put in to bring that teacher to the point where he or she has a technique or set of techniques that will enrich my skill set. I am more than willing to compensate another artist for sharing their skills with me that were hard won by hours at the torch. If I buy a tutorial on a technique I don't have to spend those hours at torch, for instance, figuring out just how to work a certain silver glass in the flame. That author has already spent the time experimenting and gone through a lot of glass to figure it out and is now willing to share it with me. I think we need to place a good value on another's willingness and ability to share knowledge. That's something I am happy to pay for.
This is very true. The tut author may be providing information that not only takes a slice out of their market, but also adds to the buyer's. Although, where that gets messy is when someone puts out a tut that showcases a technique they learned from someone else... then the author is profiting via tutorial, and stamping their name on, someone else's technique. That's happened a few times.
Polgarra
2010-10-21, 10:06am
This is very true. The tut author may be providing information that not only takes a slice out of their market, but also adds to the buyer's. Although, where that gets messy is when someone puts out a tut that showcases a technique they learned from someone else... then the author is profiting via tutorial, and stamping their name on, someone else's technique. That's happened a few times.
When you say 'Someone else's technique' do you mean that the someone else invented the technique and no one else has ever done it? Like it is a new idea? Or just that someone else made it famous? Or someone else already wrote a tutorial and they learned it then they wrote up a tutorial with the same info?
When you say 'Someone else's technique' do you mean that the someone else invented the technique and no one else has ever done it? Like it is a new idea? Or just that someone else made it famous? Or someone else already wrote a tutorial and they learned it then they wrote up a tutorial with the same info?
I think this point is very valid. Many bought the book about Dots, but obviously, the author didn't create the dot technique. Most of the basic techniques are public domain. If you want to sit down and write about how you do dots, or whatever, and publish a tutorial on the hows and wherefores, then sell it, does it become "Your" technique, or just your tutorial?
Most tutorials share a recipe for color or a specific way and order of doing things. Therein lies the value, from my POV. And there are "new" things to learn how to manage, like silver glass, for one. But I think it is easy to see that the traditional territorialism regarding glasswork is alive and well.
Thanks goodness a decade+ ago, it was ALL about the sharing or most of us wouldn't be doing this now!!
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but I'm pretty sure that if 99.9% of the tutorial writers weren't able to write and sell their information as electronic tutorials, they would NEVER go through all that it takes to get a book published with their techniques. And I don't blame them. The bottom line is that other than taking a class, the only way to get the artist's techniques or information is by buying their tutorial. For me, when I want the information, the price is secondary.
And by the way, when you take a class, you end up having to write your own tutorial anyway since the teachers do not give the directions in writing. Having taken many classes, I can tell you that trying to read my notes later can sometimes be almost impossible. You are writing fast, trying to keep up with what the teacher is doing, drawing doo-dads that you think you will remember how to decypher later, etc., etc. So in a couple instances, even though I have taken the class with the artist, I will still buy their tutorial. Go figure.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
Lisa
pittypat
2010-10-21, 11:53am
ok, Chrissij, now I want that recipe!! You had me drooling...or you can overnight one to me!!!LOL...Pat
I make what I refer to as "New Orleans White Wedding Cake" for any and all "bring a dish" get togethers. I've been asked COUNTLESS times for my recipe. I could tell them, "It's from a box. Pillsbury white cake mix. Just add two capfuls of pure almond flavoring" and put crushed pineapple between the layers. That's what it is, but there's more to it than just the basics.
I learned, quite accidentally, 'cause I f'd up, how to make a better cake, from a store bought mix. How you mix things, and in what order, makes a difference. Who knew?
I learned how to keep the edges from getting crusty while waiting for the cake to cool before frosting it from a carrot cake recipe...slightly modified, of course.
I also have those silver cloth cake pan wraps that you soak in water before putting them around your pans. They keep the cake level, and, I think, moister. Because they insulate the pan, I can take the cake out of the oven a few minutes early, while it's certain to be moist, and it will finish baking in the pan.
My icing has also evolved over the years. Mom always used 6 tablespoons of Crisco, powdered sugar, almond flavoring and whole milk. I use 4 tablespoons of Crisco, 2 tablespoons of unsalted butter, almond flavoring, and evaporated milk. Mine's better. So...what does this "boil down to"? ;)
You can have the ingredients, and the basic "how to" instructions to follow, but without the trial by error knowledge, or the correct tools, you won't get the same results. It's up to each of us, personally, to decide whether or not we think the monetary expenditure is worth it. Think it is? Go for it. Think it isn't? Don't.
OMGS.. Chrissi.. I was pretty certain I was so tired that what I was trying to convey would come across as gobbledygook.. but.. from what your saying.. it feels to me like you heard me and understood what I was trying to say! (I think either you're psychic or *I* lucked out!) :lol:
~Rachel
menty666
2010-10-21, 1:15pm
I've written one tutorial, and I don't feel the least bit guilty charging 20.00 for it. The way I see it, what you're buying from me is less an ebook and more a quick lesson, for a fairly reasonable price. Add in that I, like most other author's I've bought tutorials from, also offer "after-care", offering to answer questions related to the tutorial.
In addition to demonstrating a technique, I also included some helpful tips and sourcing info for various tools and parts.
I think it depends on how you think about it really. If you look at it as 20 pages of information, then ok, maybe it's overpriced a little. If, however, you consider what you might otherwise spend for a similar hour of the author's time to show you in person, it's a bargain.
Plus, I really saw precious little by way of return on mine since I donated all the money I made on it for the first 6 weeks (I think...it may have been a full two months) to the AGLF lawsuit mess, and since sales dropped off on it, it really hasn't made me much at all. Maybe 20.00. Maybe.
For what it's worth, this is from my tutorial regarding passing along your copy:
"My one request is that you don't share or copy this tutorial. If you want to pass along your singular copy and delete yours once you're done learning, you're welcome to do so. In the interest of fairness, if someone's interested in purchasing a copy please respect the work I put into this tutorial send them my way to buy their own copy."
Does that mean I'm going to go nuts on someone if they happen to mention what size holes I have on my mold? No, of course not. Frankly in many cases I'd just tell you if you caught me on a good day. But if I were learning some secret of dealing with a particularly hard to use glass from a tutorial, ok, I might respect the author's request not to divulge that. If nothing else, keeping it tough to work with gives ME a marketing edge.
On a happy note and somewhat related~ I just learned you can share a Kindle eBook up to 6 times, this is done by letting a trusted friend/relative log into your kindle account to download the book ( as with iTunes) so that "trusted " circle of friends etc that you might lend a book to, you can share a eBook with! Perfect, iThink!!
chrissij
2010-10-21, 5:18pm
ok, Chrissij, now I want that recipe!! You had me drooling...or you can overnight one to me!!!LOL...Pat
Cake:
Pillsbury white cake mix; the four egg white way; leave the eggs out on the counter so that they're room temperature when you get around to making the cake.
Soak the silver cake thingees; Pam the cake pans.
Preheat the oven to 25 degrees less than the directions say.
Put the mix in the blender first, turn the blender on so any lumps get worked out.
Then add the water and 2 capfuls of pure almond flavoring.
Mix it a little.
Then add the egg whites.
Mix it a lot; you want the batter to look voluminous, and kinda' airy.
Then add the oil. (I forgot the oil one time, and as I was pouring the mix into the cake pans, I thought, "that doesn't look right", looked over...and there, on the counter, was my measuring cup with the 1/4 cup oil I had forgotten to add. So, I scraped everything back into the mixing bowl, added the oil, and mixed it up again. I've added the oil last ever since.)
Mix it heaps, until it's really smooth. (This can be over done, and the cake will be a bit flatter if you do over do it, but you'll figure out what it's supposed to look like over time.)
Put the water saturated silver cake thingees on the pans.
Bake for the least amount of time recommended on the box.
Let them cool for about 5 minutes, and then flip them out onto two separate plates. One, of course, will become your cake, and the other should have wax paper on it so that it doesn't stick to the plate and you can flip it onto the other layer easily.
While they're baking make your icing and your pineapple filling.
The pineapple filling is made from a small can of Dole crushed pineapple.
Drain the pineapple juice into a pot.
Mix probably about a teaspoon and a half of cornstarch into the juice. (I just eyeball it.)
Add the pineapple into the pot.
Cook over medium heat, stirring continuously, until it thickens.
Set aside.
The icing is:
4 tablespoons of white Crisco
2 tablespoons of unsalted butter
2 capfuls of almond flavoring
1 box of powdered sugar
However much Carnation evaporated milk it takes until the icing is the consistency you like.
When you're done with that, take a spoonful of your icing, put it into a cup, and add evaporated milk to it until you have soupy icing. You're going to paint this on your still warm cake edges so that they don't get crispy/stale while you're waiting on the cake to be cool enough to frost.
When you're frosting the cake:
Put icing on the bottom layer, top that layer with the pineapple, put the second cake layer on, frost it.
PittsGlass
2010-10-21, 5:37pm
Who could have guessed at how yummy this thread would get :-) Thanks for your baking tricks!
I'm just shocked Chris eats Crisco.
jamie lynne
2010-10-21, 5:43pm
Funny, Kevan, that was my first thought too! For a girl that eats veg burgers, the crisco is kinda shocking. :lol:
Crisco is vegetable shortening...why are you surprised?
jamie lynne
2010-10-21, 5:48pm
It's fattening. :lol: Chrissi is an itty bitty.
And by the way, when you take a class, you end up having to write your own tutorial anyway since the teachers do not give the directions in writing.
Actually--I do give the directions in writing. The basis for all my tutorials was the multi-page booklets of complete class notes I hand out to each student in class. When I'm teaching I want people to watch me demo...not rapidly scribble unreadable notes and miss important steps in the scramble.
Just sayin'. LOL
~~Mary
pittypat
2010-10-21, 5:55pm
Thank you so much, Chrissi!! I am going to the store now...your tip will be in the mail!!
Pat
Mary - That is really nice of you to hand out written directions in your classes. By the way, I have several of your tutorials and love them. However, speaking from my own experience of having taken many, many classes, in not a single one were we given any written instructions at all. I think you are the exception.
Why am I so hungry for cake now?
Crisco isn't as bad as it used to be. They took the trans fat out.
Lisa, that surprises me! It really does. I thought most teachers did that. I would have thought it was the exception NOT to. I just do what I would want done for me if I was the student.
~~Mary
chrissij
2010-10-22, 6:10am
How would one make icing without Crisco? :-s
slcuniques
2010-10-22, 7:55am
Hi Melodie, I've been sitting here reading this whole thread and one thing that really sticks out is a comment you made about ownership. Can't remember which post it was now, but....
You commented that once you printed a tutorial out, it becomes yours.
Copyrights do not get transfered to the buyer. The hard copy you print is yours, yes, but the contents in that print out will always belong to the author unless they sell that copyright or content. Just like a DVD movie. When you view them, it plainly states in the very beginning, THE FBI prohibits the reproduction or duplication of this product etc etc.. That doesn't mean you can't take that movie over to a friends house and watch it with others. You can resell that original copy but you can't make copies and resell them. That's piracy and against the law on copyright material.
Before I wrote and published my 4 tutorials I did a lot of research and talked to our lawyer about my rights as the author.
In all legality, when you make a printed copy, you actually have to have permission from the author to do so. Most tutorial writers have that permission in their edocument/tutorial. Then your printed copy becomes the original. Copyright laws protect that document from being multi-reproduced for resale, so yes and no... The hard belongs to you, but the content of it does not.
yellowbird
2010-10-22, 7:59am
[[/B]How would one make icing without Crisco? :-s
butter
gemsinbloom
2010-10-22, 8:06am
I love this thread, now we are chatting about cake!
glassactcc
2010-10-22, 9:29am
I only hand out written instructions for one bead technique in my class. I really think it has to do with the level that is being taught. For a beginner class, I think it would be feasible to have a general handout for the basics of bead making. When an advanced class is taught, which is what I teach, it would be impossible to hand out written instruction for everything that is covered. It would be like handing out six or seven tutorials. There is so much that I cover in my classes and techniques that are in depth and complicated, it just would not be doable.
I did think about giving a tutorial on one of the beads that I was covering in the class, but then I thought that would not be nice for the people in the class that had already paid for the written tutorial previously.
I'm not sure I understand that, Cynthia. They are paying for the information, not the printed out papers. If you are teaching it anyway, what difference does it make if it is printed out and given to the students? You are showing in person how to do it so the construction is revealed already...that is the meat of the tutorial.
Obviously, if the students had already purchased the tutorial and STILL wanted to take your class (I mean---who wouldn't? LOL) they aren't going to be territorial about what you are handing out. You already revealed it--what's the difference? I don't know- maybe I'm nuts.
Anyway, I only popped in here because something happened in the family room and gave me a new thought. Someone (and it has happened to more than just this one someone) lost the digital files of the tutorials they had purchased. A computer crash, a virus...I've heard of lots of ways these things get 'gone'. Tutorial authors popped right into the thread with the 'we will replace that tutorial- just let me know if you're missing one of mine'. I think that's pretty cool. I lost my Tonbodama book at a glass event. It just walked home with somebody else. Guess what- nobody was offering to send me a new copy of my lost book. LOL Darn it--that would have been sweeeet.
Just goes to show that you aren't paying for the file (not really)...you are paying for the know-how.
~~Mary
I keep getting stuck on one thing in that recipe. "Blender?"
chrissij
2010-10-22, 12:40pm
I keep getting stuck on one thing in that recipe. "Blender?"
:oops: Mixer. #-o
I'm not sure I understand that, Cynthia. They are paying for the information, not the printed out papers. If you are teaching it anyway, what difference does it make if it is printed out and given to the students? You are showing in person how to do it so the construction is revealed already...that is the meat of the tutorial.
Obviously, if the students had already purchased the tutorial and STILL wanted to take your class (I mean---who wouldn't? LOL) they aren't going to be territorial about what you are handing out. You already revealed it--what's the difference? I don't know- maybe I'm nuts.
Anyway, I only popped in here because something happened in the family room and gave me a new thought. Someone (and it has happened to more than just this one someone) lost the digital files of the tutorials they had purchased. A computer crash, a virus...I've heard of lots of ways these things get 'gone'. Tutorial authors popped right into the thread with the 'we will replace that tutorial- just let me know if you're missing one of mine'. I think that's pretty cool. I lost my Tonbodama book at a glass event. It just walked home with somebody else. Guess what- nobody was offering to send me a new copy of my lost book. LOL Darn it--that would have been sweeeet.
Just goes to show that you aren't paying for the file (not really)...you are paying for the know-how.
~~Mary
That did happen to me once and I lost a ton of important stuff. I have posted a link to solve all those crashing problems. Check it out, it's FREE!!
https://my.syncplicity.com/Signup/UserSignup.aspx?plan=free
glassactcc
2010-10-22, 4:07pm
No Mary, your not nuts. I don't know. Ok, say the class that you teach is x amount of dollars and the tutorial is x amount of dollars. The student that purchased the tutorial previously, would be paying the full amount of the class, plus the cost of the tutorial. The others would only be paying for the class. I think the hard copy of the tutorial has value. I know that if it were me as a student, who paid for the tut that was being handed out for free in the class, I would be upset. (Maybe I'm a Bi&ch:oops:) It's like paying to go to the movies and getting the book for free.
I'm not sure I understand that, Cynthia. They are paying for the information, not the printed out papers. If you are teaching it anyway, what difference does it make if it is printed out and given to the students? You are showing in person how to do it so the construction is revealed already...that is the meat of the tutorial.
Obviously, if the students had already purchased the tutorial and STILL wanted to take your class (I mean---who wouldn't? LOL) they aren't going to be territorial about what you are handing out. You already revealed it--what's the difference? I don't know- maybe I'm nuts.
Anyway, I only popped in here because something happened in the family room and gave me a new thought. Someone (and it has happened to more than just this one someone) lost the digital files of the tutorials they had purchased. A computer crash, a virus...I've heard of lots of ways these things get 'gone'. Tutorial authors popped right into the thread with the 'we will replace that tutorial- just let me know if you're missing one of mine'. I think that's pretty cool. I lost my Tonbodama book at a glass event. It just walked home with somebody else. Guess what- nobody was offering to send me a new copy of my lost book. LOL Darn it--that would have been sweeeet.
Just goes to show that you aren't paying for the file (not really)...you are paying for the know-how.
~~Mary
alb6094
2010-10-22, 4:28pm
I'll jump in from the student perspective and say that I always think of classes as "learn by doing". I don't expect handouts. I can see doing handouts for newbie classes because you're so green and need to know about safety et al but beyond that, well, isn't that what a notepad and pen are for? Just like college classes, I take notes if there's something I don't think I can retain. Maybe I'm strange, I don't know. I never have believed you learn well by having someone just hand you the information. If you have to work for it a bit you're more likely to retain it. Just my .02.
At Hot Times earlier this month, two of the demonstrators gave easy to follow handouts. (Now, these were demos, not classes)
They were not fancy tutorials with all the bells and whistles, just fundamental information. I thought that was great, because I wanted all of my attention focused on the torch and glass and demo person. Very helpful. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't go ahead and buy a full blown tutorial if I thought it would be useful in the long run...
I agree about the having to work for it part...but that is what you are doing after the demo- taking your spot at a torch and doing what you just saw done. Unless you didn't see it because you were busy writing. LOL
I'm not teaching advanced classes. I think of it as more intermediate. Jellyfish, Sculptural, Encasing Bootcamp and Floral Bootcamp. I've never taught a beginner class so maybe those are different. I think of advanced as like Loren Stump or Lucio. I don't know what other classes are like because I've never taken one. All I know is that all the students I've ever had were mighty happy with the class handouts because their own notes would never have been that thorough.
~~Mary
At Hot Times earlier this month, two of the demonstrators gave easy to follow handouts. (Now, these were demos, not classes)
They were not fancy tutorials with all the bells and whistles, just fundamental information. I thought that was great, because I wanted all of my attention focused on the torch and glass and demo person. Very helpful. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't go ahead and buy a full blown tutorial if I thought it would be useful in the long run...
Yes, that is kinda what I've experienced. My handouts are about 12-16 pages for the whole day long class so even if I demo 12 different beads in that time they each only got a page. No pictures- just text. In a tutorial each one of those beads could have gotten 5 or 6 pages. I've had lots of former students buy tutorials from me. I've never been entirely sure how to take that.
I mean- I'm grateful obviously. And excited that they are excited. But I always wonder if maybe I failed them somehow during the class that they would still need the tutorial. I never had the guts to ask...maybe one will see this and tell me how they felt about it.
~~Mary
I guess in a roundabout way I just explained Cynthia's thoughts on it to myself. LOL Just backwards. These people paid for the class and THEN paid again for the tutorial. If I gave it free to the other people in the class I would feel bad for the ones who paid so I guess that makes sense to me now.
Dreamscapes Studio
2010-10-22, 5:03pm
Ok folks ... better get a cup of coffee, tea or whatever it is you have when you read a novel ... 'cause here goes.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that the cost of the tuts (even including printing, putting in plastic sleeves, binder, etc.) is expensive. IMHO ... I see them as IN-EXPENSIVE (I want to say cheap, but that would imply lacking in quality).
I am a 3rd generation glass-worker , my Grandfather had a neon sign shop and did some blowing on the side, my Mom started doing spun glass 37 years ago ... believe me ... if you think the "shared information" is lacking now ... you should have been around then when there were "death threats" - yes, I said "death threats" if you gave out information ... including Homer L. Hoyt who wrote the Glassblowing book because the other glassworkers didn't want everyone else to know how it was done.
Again IMHO as I mentioned previously I think most tutorials are worth EVERY penny and SAVE ME A TON OF MONEY. When I think of how much glass, oxygen, propane, time, energy and frustration I would have to endure to learn these things ... I think we are VERY fortunate to have these people sharing their "valuable" information with us ... and THAT is the bottom line ... it is all about the VALUE.
A few examples that I can think of off-hand:
1 - I was VERY lucky to have been gifted Kevan's photo tutorial - WOW the information in that!!! I am NOT a photographer, and while I still have not "mastered" my photography skills ... the time alone that her tut saved me is INCREDIBLE.
2 - I purchased Patienthand's Ornament Tutorial ... I spent HUGE dollars years ago to go away and learned blowing, but received NOTHING in writing and forgot ALOT of what was taught to me, so her tut again saved me an incredible amount of time and material to learn what "I supposedly had already learned".
3- I purchased Mary's bird tut - yes, I have been making birds for years but I like her "style" and her "techniques" were worth EVERY penny.
Of all the tuts that I have purchased and been gifted ... only once have I ever been disappointed (will not mention who's) with what was in them. I DO NOT purchase tuts to duplicate the author's items, I purchase them to learn the techniques and save myself the time, money and frustration of learning them on my own. I live in "the bush" so to speak and cannot possibly afford to travel to all of the classes I would like to attend ... unless someday I win the lottery.
I earn my living selling beads, jewelry and stained glass and I teach many classes. I give all my stained glass and lampwork students a basic manual that I have created myself with photos so when they go home, they will have a reference to look back on ... but I don't teach for free ... except for kids and intellectually disabled. I don't give out the information that I have purchased from tuts ... if those students wish to learn those techniques, I am only too happy to point them where they may purchase them. Just like I would hope my students would not "distribute" (which I know they have) the handouts that I have prepared for my classes, I respect the time and talents of my fellow artists. The classes I teach are lampwork for beginners to intermediate and stained glass of all levels.
To ALL the artists and authors of those tuts ... T H A N K Y O U ... from the bottom of my heart!!! I cannot begin to tell you how much I appreciate and value the time and effort that you have put into your work, your techniques and the effort that you have put forth to create those beautiful tutorials.
'Nuff said
glassactcc
2010-10-22, 5:20pm
I guess it's all in the word. I think of those guys as "Master Classes" Mine could totally be labeled intermediate with your description. I could only dream of ever being in that group. Maybe in another 20 years? I have never taken one either Mary. So sad.
I think of advanced as like Loren Stump or Lucio. I don't know what other classes are like because I've never taken one. All I know is that all the students I've ever had were mighty happy with the class handouts because their own notes would never have been that thorough.
~~Mary
LOL, I don't see myself EVER being in that group. Yes, I would consider that master classes as well, but to me that is what advanced is. As usual I probably have a skewed perception.
~~Mary
:oops: Mixer. #-o
K. I was perplexed :lol:
pittypat
2010-10-22, 8:01pm
Squiddi perplexed???? cannot be............LOL..................Pat
And I am in the exact corner with Dreamscapes' opinion...I have printed out and bound all my tuts,( maybe 30 or 40?..I really don't want to count!) and even with printer ink, I still consider it a bargain.
And Mary, I might try to answer why students buy your tuts later after your class. I have been able to take two or three classes; and for one, I took notes, did not come home and practice the techniques, and now cannot even understand my notes!! I would buy a tut from that person in a heartbeat!!
Pat
patienthand
2010-10-23, 6:44am
Dreamscapes.... I hear you. When I started almost 34 years ago, no one shared anything with anyone. It was all jealously guarded. If you walked into our shop and we didnt know you, everything was turned off and covered up. Lampwork was a dieing art. I am thrilled to see the explosion of knowledge being shared. I would have paid any price for the opportunity to learn anything. It just was not available unless you served an apprenticeship. there was one book out, by hammersfar and stong called creative glassblowing, and that was IT. No classes to be had either.
we gots it good these days.....
Candice
My comments were not meant in any way to be criticism, in fact, just the opposite. I am a tutorial junkie and buy almost every one that comes out. I am also a classaholic and LOVE taking classes. It is so exciting to me to be able to get information from the masters in any way I can. We are so fortunate to have the e-tutorials available to us at a very reasonable cost if we really want to learn what is being offered in them. When you think about how much we pay for other things that go into lampworking, the amount of a tutorial really isn't much at all.
Cynthia Tilker - I am SO sorry. I totally forgot about the beautiful handout you gave us. Forgive me?
glassactcc
2010-10-25, 9:16pm
Oh Lisa. Don't give it a thought. I forgot about the handout too when I posted above. After I posted I thought to myself, "wait a minute, I did give a handout"! DUH!!! But not close to a full fledged tutorial. An abridged version:)
scoutycat
2010-10-28, 9:09am
Don't scream at me & get mad, but I don't see the point of this thread. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy these tutorials. If you don't want to buy them DON'T.
Actually, there is more to it than that. If it was merely a matter of someone trying to sell something, then that would be fine, but there is an added element of protecting information. A technique shared in a tutorial then becomes 'privileged' information, and it is not clear whether that can or should be shared either legally or ethically. If I learned a tech in a tut, then shared it using my own words and pics on a forum, there would no doubt be issues. This is my greatest concern about tutorials. None of us would be enjoying making beads had people jealously guarded their secrets like the glass makers used to. The entire american lampwork community, and especially the bead community, was created by people generously sharing what they knew and helping people where ever they could. The whole tutorial thing goes against that, and back to the secrecy of the past. If you've ever been to the corning museum the damage that secrecy can cause is apparent - murrine making, goblet stems, and other techniques are lost and redeveloped several times. Imagine if we knew how the Blaschkas worked, and how modern glass artists could expand upon what they did.
If the issue was just over inflated prices, I'd roll my eyes and walk away. Information sharing, tho, is something that affects all of us, and is worthy of discussion.
I've been reading this thread, and now it has brought up a question.
I am new to lampworking (class 4 last night, made my first heart learning how for Beads of Courage, have about 4 hours torch time under my belt) and there is a TON I do not know but would love to learn. All to say....
I've been looking around so that when my kids say "what do you want for Christmas (birthday, etc) Mom", I can have a list of ideas for them. I have some tools noted, and was going to put some of the tutorials on there also. So if they want to buy one for me, can they get it emailed to them & put it on a CD to wrap for gifting or print it out to wrap, or does it have to be emailed to me (they might not like that, won't be here to see it "opened") or can it be emailed to them, then they open their email here & save it to my computer, etc. What is best, so I can let them know the desired way to do it should they chose to get me one?
kandice
2010-10-28, 4:18pm
I can answer your question for me, as a tutorial author, and I think many other tutorial authors will agree. I personally have no problem sending a tutorial to someone who wants to give it as a gift. In fact, I have done so several times. As long as the person buying explains the situation, I am pretty agreeable to that. One copy of the tutorial purchased for one gift - no problem. One copy of the tutorial purchased and given to a whole bunch of people - not acceptable, IMO.
I can answer your question for me, as a tutorial author, and I think many other tutorial authors will agree. I personally have no problem sending a tutorial to someone who wants to give it as a gift. In fact, I have done so several times. As long as the person buying explains the situation, I am pretty agreeable to that. One copy of the tutorial purchased for one gift - no problem. One copy of the tutorial purchased and given to a whole bunch of people - not acceptable, IMO.
I'm with Kandice on this one and also had another thought about this entire issue.
Once upon a time (not all that long ago) we were all clear that, if you bought a CD from a store and ripped copies of it to give to all of your friends it was considered piracy, not to mention (understandably, IMO) stealing from the artist who would have received royalties had those people gone and bought their own copies as they should have; it was against the law (isn't it still?).
I think of tutorials very much the same way and, as has already been said several times in this thread, the artist is absolutely entitled to compensation for their efforts.
I cannot quite fathom why anyone would expect it to be otherwise.
For instance, even if Chrissie Hynde was a good friend of mine, I wouldn't expect her to give me a copy of her new album for free..
:poke:
~Rachel
I'm not sure if the above posts are to me or not.
I may not have been clear in my question, which was the preferred method they should use to purchase the tutorial (neither of them does any glass work whatsoever) and get it to me.
Or does it not matter, as long as they get it, make me a copy either on cd or print, and then delete it from their computers?
Sorry if I confused things.
Eileen, I've had some buyers who wanted to give tutorials as a gift pay me, and then give me the email address of the person for whom they were purchasing in the Paypal details area. That was easy and worked out fine. One person also included a message for me to copy and paste, and gave a specific date for delivery. Easy-peasy.
Thank you for letting me know.
I'm not sure they will want to do that (as I mentioned, they seem to enjoy giving me a "thing" they can watch be unwrapped & see my reaction I guess) but I'll mention it to them.
PS. I can always get them myself later the regular way, I was just looking for ideas for them for when they ask.
Frit Diva
2010-10-28, 9:19pm
Eileen~
I have made CD's and mailed them to customers before for a variety of reasons. I'm always happy to do it, and just charge the cost of the disk itself plus shipping. Personally, I would prefer that a gift CD be made by me rather than by the giver, but I'm not really sure why I feel that way!
Jo
Thank you for letting me know. I may just let them know about glass, tools, books, etc. and keep the tutorial buying for myself when I feel I'm getting more control of the basics. I've only made 8 beads so far, LOL, so I know I need PPP!
kandice
2010-10-28, 10:59pm
To me, it doesn't matter - which ever works easier for them and you. :)
I'm not sure if the above posts are to me or not.
I may not have been clear in my question, which was the preferred method they should use to purchase the tutorial (neither of them does any glass work whatsoever) and get it to me.
Or does it not matter, as long as they get it, make me a copy either on cd or print, and then delete it from their computers?
Sorry if I confused things.
Thanks Kandice, good to know :)
patienthand
2010-10-29, 6:56pm
Eileen,
If they told me it was a gift for mom, and they wanted to burn one copy to give to you to open, and they didnt do glasswork themselves, I would be fine with that. I have also sent the tutorial to a specific email addy when it was a gift from another glassworker. Mostly, as long as I feel like folks are being straight up with me, I am easy going and dont get upset.
Candice
glassbead
2010-10-30, 2:00pm
Oh, I just don't have time to read all of this! But what I have read is interesting.
Re: books vs. tutorials, I'd really rather have written a book than the tut I did- but what a lot of time that would take! I'd prefer selling a book because people could then look at it first and decide if it was something they wanted to buy. As it is, after consideration, I'd like to be charging less than the $16 I am currently selling my tut for, but that wouldn't be fair to the few folks who have already bought it, would it?
So I am really fine with people showing it around- not printing it and passing it around, but helping each other learn some of the techniques. I think that would actually generate more sales.
I sent out a few copies to friends for free to have them read and test it. That was lucky, as I had overlooked some important things. I would love it if there was some kind of professional review process. Though I don't know who that would be comprised of. Of course everyone could just send them to me first...!
As far as the person who had figured out a technique for themselves- it seems a little unfair, whether the info is avaiable in tut form or not, for you to feel that you can't sell those beads online, unless they are a pretty much exact reproduction. I know the feeling- I have some beads right now that I am afraid to post online.
I do have lots of free tuts and mini tuts on my blog, just in case anyone's looking for some free info. http://isinglassdesign.blogspot.com/
OK, that's my 2 cents.
None of us would be enjoying making beads had people jealously guarded their secrets like the glass makers used to. The entire american lampwork community, and especially the bead community, was created by people generously sharing what they knew and helping people where ever they could. The whole tutorial thing goes against that, and back to the secrecy of the past. If you've ever been to the corning museum the damage that secrecy can cause is apparent - murrine making, goblet stems, and other techniques are lost and redeveloped several times. Imagine if we knew how the Blaschkas worked, and how modern glass artists could expand upon what they did.
I understand what you are saying, but I see something missing.
1- "Generously shared" indicates a certain level of gifted information...which is certainly true. But information SOLD is still just as shared as information given away for nothing. People just paid to get it instead of having it handed to them gratis.
2- There is a big difference between requesting people not pass around copies of a tutorial and threatening people with death if they share guarded secrets. People were kept sworn to secrecy and sequestered on islands to keep their knowledge under wraps. Sorry, but I think saying that selling a tutorial goes back to the old days of secrecy is a bit dramatic.
3- If the Blaschkas HAD taught anyone their secrets it sure as heck wouldn't have been for free. LOL Not at that time and not now either. However, I must admit they probably wouldn't be doing it by digital tutorial. LOL
I'm all for sharing knowledge. I'm all for passing along what we know. I just don't think that it all has to be for free. It NEVER was all for free. People have always paid for books, classes, served as apprentices and gophers to earn their knowledge. How are tutorials different? They aren't. They are simply a new format...that's all.
~~Mary
i understand what you are saying, but i see something missing.
1- "generously shared" indicates a certain level of gifted information...which is certainly true. But information sold is still just as shared as information given away for nothing. People just paid to get it instead of having it handed to them gratis.
2- there is a big difference between requesting people not pass around copies of a tutorial and threatening people with death if they share guarded secrets. People were kept sworn to secrecy and sequestered on islands to keep their knowledge under wraps. Sorry, but i think saying that selling a tutorial goes back to the old days of secrecy is a bit dramatic.
3- if the blaschkas had taught anyone their secrets it sure as heck wouldn't have been for free. Lol not at that time and not now either. However, i must admit they probably wouldn't be doing it by digital tutorial. Lol
i'm all for sharing knowledge. I'm all for passing along what we know. I just don't think that it all has to be for free. It never was all for free. People have always paid for books, classes, served as apprentices and gophers to earn their knowledge. How are tutorials different? They aren't. They are simply a new format...that's all.
~~mary
=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d>=d> <~okay.. those are applause if the emoticon thingie doesn't work for some reason ;}
~Rachel
I gotta say, on the subject of sharing information, it's a heck of a lot more readily available now than it was when I started lampworking. There were no books, no forums, and I only knew two people who did it. If I saw beautiful beads at a show and so much as asked what color glass they used, I could expect to get a cold stare and told that information was their trade secret.
This is a great discussion and I can see both sides.
How you feel about tutorial prices is how I feel about class prices. Not because I don't think they're worth it but, a) because I can never afford them and, b) because I taught painting lessons for years and got a pittance of what glass artists make teaching these days! Lol! :-)
So, I actually look at buying tutorials as an incredible bargain! They're like a private lesson between me and the artist - just one on one. Had I taken a class there may be several people and I might not see things close up as I do in a tutorial or hear everything explained as well over other people talking, etc, etc. And in the end I may still come out of it learning the same amount of things I could've in a tutorial instantly.
But, all that to say, I think some tutorials are more than worth their $25-ish price and some I have purchased are not - in my opinion. Or maybe they are and the really great ones with tons and tons of info are underpriced.
Because I know the only alternative to learning these new techniques is to take expensive classes, for now I am content to hand over a few dollars here and there to glass artists who are saving me all that extra time (and expense of wasted materials) to try and learn techniques on my own that took them maybe months or years to figure out themselves.
Additionally, I think the idea of not being able to share content is simply the only option artists have of protecting themselves against theft when dealing with materials that can be sent (and reproduced) electronically - we all suffer because of the dishonesty of a few who would take advantage if given the option.
If this info were in physical book form no one would bother going through all the trouble of photocopying and reselling numerous copies of that book to make a buck. But with electronically produced material it's just too easy to be taken advantage of unfortunately.
Oh! I forgot to mention that - for those of you who sell professionally, and/or you at least sell enough that you have to claim your income from selling beads on your taxes - you can deduct your purchase of tut's as an expense!
Obviously check with your tax advisor first, but I am able to do this - I label this section of my expenses as 'Education'. ;-)
You won't get everything you spent back, but it does help some. Just an FYI...
AKDesigns
2010-11-01, 6:19pm
I agree about the class prices. I'm sure most artists are worth every penny but a $500 fee is just far too much for me to spend. I've taken one class at $500 and I haven't used a darn thing I learned in that class...not a thing. It was an interesting experience and I had fun and yes...I did learn some things but they were nothing that I've actually used in my bead making. I took a bargain class from Eric Radar...got it off an eBay auction he did. I felt guilty for getting a two day, two on one class from him at such a low price. I learned a bunch. Mostly with my encasing and working with silver foil.
Kalera
2010-11-01, 10:37pm
The classes I've taken (three) have been absolutely worth their weight in human flesh... seriously. Absolutely incredible. I think the key is, actually, taking classes from people who do what you're kind of already doing, but do it way better.
scoutycat
2010-11-02, 12:15pm
I don't think you do understand what I'm saying, since your post is missing my point. I'm not saying that selling the information or tutorial is creating a sense of secrecy, it's the format itself & unclear ettiquette/ rules for further disseminating the info that is creating a sense of secrecy. It is not the same as just selling a book in digital format - it is quite common to hear some one say something like, I read about this tech in xxx's book (or video) and then describe it in a couple sentences. It would currently be a major faux pas, and bring with is some pretty heated opinions if someone were to share similar info from someone's tutorial. It is this sense of not wanting to share information for fear of stepping on someone's toes that I am most concerned about, and the idea that some people 'own' certain techniques. People's tutorials need to be good enough that people will want them even if they know about the technique - instead, people are trying to sell 'their' technique, and so 'guarding' that technique becomes important. I suspect that some of the problem is a lack of quality/ value for dollar that is the causing this sort of protectionism. If a tutorial was awesome, there would be no need to feel threatened but someone 'spilling the beans' about how it was done, since it would be either too complicated to share easily, or the benefit of words and pictures wold be so great that no one could capture it in a few sentences.
You are making a lot of assumptions about my comments on secrecy. Glass secrecy was hardly limited to sequestering people on an island and threatening them with death, there has been a long history of not sharing information, protecting secrets etc. across many cultures and tons has been lost because of it. It is hardly dramatic to say that not sharing information is a step backwards to the days of glass secrecy - the US 20-30 years ago was not what you'd call forthcoming with information. Virtually everyone who makes beads or flameworks today has benefitted hugely by information generously shared ( and by generously, i mean for free) by a few key people about 20 years ago. To me, it seems like a huge slap in the face to them and their efforts, and hugely ingrateful to not continue to share information as we develop it.
I understand what you are saying, but I see something missing.
1- "Generously shared" indicates a certain level of gifted information...which is certainly true. But information SOLD is still just as shared as information given away for nothing. People just paid to get it instead of having it handed to them gratis.
2- There is a big difference between requesting people not pass around copies of a tutorial and threatening people with death if they share guarded secrets. People were kept sworn to secrecy and sequestered on islands to keep their knowledge under wraps. Sorry, but I think saying that selling a tutorial goes back to the old days of secrecy is a bit dramatic.
3- If the Blaschkas HAD taught anyone their secrets it sure as heck wouldn't have been for free. LOL Not at that time and not now either. However, I must admit they probably wouldn't be doing it by digital tutorial. LOL
I'm all for sharing knowledge. I'm all for passing along what we know. I just don't think that it all has to be for free. It NEVER was all for free. People have always paid for books, classes, served as apprentices and gophers to earn their knowledge. How are tutorials different? They aren't. They are simply a new format...that's all.
~~Mary
glasswinder
2010-11-02, 8:24pm
I have bought several tutorials and really don't mind spending the money. It is a lot cheaper than taking Master Classes...which I LOVE doing and would certainly take more of if they were available in my area. That being said...when I first started participating on this forum, many of the artists posted what they did to achieve the results on a bead they had posted a picture of. They were open and helpful to anyone with a question on how it was made or any other questions regarding its 'birth'. Not so much anymore in most instances...
glassbead
2010-11-03, 9:10am
I have to agree with scoutycat when she said:
"People's tutorials need to be good enough that people will want them even if they know about the technique - instead, people are trying to sell 'their' technique, and so 'guarding' that technique becomes important. ..... If a tutorial was awesome, there would be no need to feel threatened but someone 'spilling the beans' about how it was done, since it would be either too complicated to share easily, or the benefit of words and pictures wold be so great that no one could capture it in a few sentences."
That said, I do use a couple of techniques that I don't feel like sharing with the world right now. But then, no one has asked me to either!
scoutycat
2010-11-03, 2:31pm
Hey, if you aren't ready to share then that's ok too - we all feel that way, it's hard to have worked on something and then hand it off to someone. There's no sense of you owning the idea (except maybe in your own mind I guess), tho. I mean, if you aren't sharing your particular process, and someone else shares how to do that technique, you can't get very upset about it - obviously, they came up with it themselves. But putting something out there for sale, and then expecting that only ppl who have paid for it will recieve the information, or buying a tutorial an thinking that only a very select few will know about the technique(s) is silly. A tutorial as a way of getting a class that would be otherwise inaccessable is a great idea, and hopefully has enough pics, info & teacher access to be valuable. But, just like a class anything that is shown or shared becomes public info.
I don't see how this art/craft is any different from any other.
There are always going to be people who want paid for what they know.
There are always going to be people completely unwilling to share or help anyone else for free.
There are always going to be people who instantly share everything freely.
There are always going to be people willing to pay.
There are always going to be people who pay and then complain about it.
There are always going to be people who refuse to pay. They will either figure it out on their own or they will convince friends to give them for free what their friends paid for.
There will always be people who are willing to pay and then tell everyone everything because they are helping their friends out.
This is the nature of the beast.
None of this will ever change.
Do what you want to do and everyone else will deal with it how they want to deal with it.
As far as classes go, I've taken to charging a flat rate per day. The studio pays me my flat rate for the day and they keep everything else to cover their expenses (which are NOT low) and keep their business operating. Keep in mind, they have to insure your butt, your classmates's butts, their own butt, their studio equipment, their fuel, their oxygen, their glass, their tools, their consumables like bead release and mandrels...etc. The list is endless. And they don't only stay open for your class. They are open lots of hours so you can go buy glass when you want or rent torch time when you want. Classes help fund that stuff.
It took me THREE YEARS to figure out how to make those silly jellyfish. I get $18 for saving YOU time, wasted effort and the glass that goes with it to catch you up. Granted, I'm kinda slow at figuring this stuff out so it might take someone else only a few months to figure it out LOL...but still. I bring you completely up to speed for $18...but that's not enough. You want me to do it for free so that you can what? I don't know.
More to the heart of it, I think, is that most (not all) of the tutorials you are talking about were written by members of this forum so that if someone comes here and starts revealing everything, the author is right here to see it.
If you went to a Bead Bash type of event with a copy of someone's book (which they were trying to sell there), and stood up in front of that crowd and started revealing all the tips/tricks/lessons in the book right in front of the author's booth it would be just as sucky as doing it here on the internet with a digital tutorial.
Would you do that? Heck no. None of us would.
This whole argument is ridiculous.
~~Mary
chrissij
2010-11-03, 3:09pm
So...
who made my cake?
I do 200% agree that the quality has to be high. If you can totally give the technique away in a few sentences, it's not enough. LOL
NLC Beads
2010-11-03, 3:38pm
Sheep are dots.
So much for a paid tutorial... ;)
I agree, Mary. Thank you for taking the time for the thought out posts.
I've taken classes, and each time I come away with something that steps my level up a notch, even if it's not specifically why I took the class. I wish there were more in my area, but buying tutorials is a way less expensive, time consuming alternative so I can learn and practice at my own speed and time frame.
scoutycat
2010-11-03, 5:25pm
Mary - Some people will be completely open or completely secretive no matter what, certainly, there is always a 'culture' that influences the crowd as a whole to be more open leaning or more secretive. I personally am not interested in figuring out how to make a jellyfish, but for people who just want to know how to do it, and all the annoying things that can go wrong and how to fix them, or how to get details like I'm sure you must include in your tut, 18$ might be a good deal. I haven't seen your tutorial, so I can't share your tech, but I don't want to be accused of stealing your buisness by telling some noob who's asking about jellies how to make a rough jellyfish, or putting a tut in the free tuts section or something.
and, regarding this:
More to the heart of it, I think, is that most (not all) of the tutorials you are talking about were written by members of this forum so that if someone comes here and starts revealing everything, the author is right here to see it.
If you went to a Bead Bash type of event with a copy of someone's book (which they were trying to sell there), and stood up in front of that crowd and started revealing all the tips/tricks/lessons in the book right in front of the author's booth it would be just as sucky as doing it here on the internet with a digital tutorial.
Would you do that? Heck no. None of us would.
This whole argument is ridiculous.
~~Mary
Of course I wouldn't stand in front of your booth and reveal all your tips and stuff - but this is not your booth. For many this is their classroom, and sometimes the only one they have available. For probably most, this is where they socialize, share, show off etc. - it is like a living room for e friends. That you have chosen to come and sell your wares somewhere that people have come together to learn about glass working is logical, but we should not stop having discussions about jellies (or whatever) because someone wrote the book on it. Not saying that you are trying to stop anyone, just that ppl feel more uncomfortable sharing info that may be covered in a tut.
Who would have guessed that my original question-observation would have generated so much debate, on so many levels? This is great! I think we all need to continue to define the ettiquite (sp) and ethics of both e-teaching, and sharing of information. THAT is the part that was missing hundreds of years ago. We have an open and easy forum for the exchange of ideas, here, and imho, that is PRICELESS!!
I think Jen has a really valid point, and it's similar to the point I mentioned earlier... so, for example, I make these encased frit and silver foil beads. This is by no means a proprietary design, I've just been making them for a long time, as have many other people. Now, suppose someone else who has been making them for a long time decides to put out a little tutorial/recipe book on making them. This is cool; I'm sure a lot of people could use detailed step-by-step instructions with clear pictures.
the question, though, is whether I should then feel as comfortable as I previously had, in explaining the method to people. Or, what if I had a series of free tutorials I was working on, and that method was next on my list? At what point to I have to pull back from sharing information that I earned and should be able to share at will?
Here's another scenario:
Say that one day at the Frantz Bash beadmaker A is casually showing beadmaker B a bracelet she made. Beadmaker B says "Wow! That bead is so cool! How did you do that, if you don't mind me asking?" Beadmaker A has no qualms about sharing this technique she came up with, so she tells beadmaker B.
Fast forward five or six years, and beadmaker B has been making their own distinctive and lovely beads with this technique for many years, when the tutorial craze hits, and he decides to write a tutorial on his specific beads. By then he's completely forgotten, as we often do with things like that, who he learned the technique from originally, or even that he didn't come up with it in his own experimentation.
Beadmaker A doesn't have a problem with this, except now she's asking herself... "if I answer questions about how that's done, will it harm my reputation? Will people think I'm giving spoilers for Beadmaker B's tutorial?"
Will the community think less of her for sharing information that is hers to give, on the basis that someone else has put it in a tutorial for sale? Even if the information originated with her, other people don't know that, and it's difficult to prove... plus, she wouldn't want to make beadmaker B look or feel bad. Kind of the way it works is that the first person to put it in print "owns" it, and that puts everyone else in a potentially awkward position in terms of sharing techniques someone has published.
These are just some issues that I think bear discussing, not a condemnation of tutorials.
scoutycat
2010-11-03, 10:29pm
Totally agree Melodie! And with you as well Kalera - those are exactly the kinds of concerns I have.
Oddly enough, when I've gone to a class or bought a book or dvd, I've never felt particularily concerned about sharing stuff I learned from there. I try to share where I found the info so the person can go chase it down, but that info doesn't always get passed on and I'm sure it isn't always retained. Regardless, no one has ever suggested that perhaps I should keep the details of Corina's book, or Loren's class, or whatever private. There is a sense that there is some intrinsic value in owning the items or having been to the class, and the techs are cool but not all there is. I would still buy the books and stuff I've bought if someone told me how to do everything in it. Why isn't it the same for tuts? Is it because they're usually pretty short and picture heavy, but still cost the same as full fledged books? It makes me wonder if people are disappointed with their tuts, and looking for value somewhere it is not or something. Or maybe that there is a perception that there is not enough info being provided for the price, so the tut needs to be 'protected' to retain it's value. Idk, some seem pretty happy with them so it's hard to say.
This probably isn't going to be a popular opinion, but to me there also seems to be a sense that the writers 'deserve' a certain amt of money for their time and effort, which seems odd to me. Buisness decisions (like publishing) are obviously a risk, and really any time spent may be totally forfeit. Any good buisness person will have made this a calculated risk, and stand to gain considerably while possibly losing instead. It's not the consumer's job to cover expenses, it's the company's job to provide a service or product the customer wants or needs. There is no way I'm ever going to be compensated for the hours it took me to develop my art ideas, process and techniques; I point these things out to customers to educate them so they can appreciate what they're looking at, but if my stuff is ugly and amateur, I'm just SOL. But I hear a lot of ' it took me xxx time to develop this tech, and i took yy pics and wrote some stuff" and honestly it sounds more like attempts to justify rather than explain. I get the feeling that maybe ppl are writing these tuts as an attempt to get quick money to chase their art ( IMHO, anything you can throw together in a few months is quick money - especially if you aren't trained in that field), instead of writing and teaching because that's what they love to do.
Electronic media is incredibly powerful, and incredibly challenging to our previous ways of managing information. Hopefully we can keep having good discussions like this one as we all figure out how to deal with it all :)
tammydownunder
2010-11-06, 1:23am
I love tutorials. But, I do not, for the life of me, understands why someone would try to sell a tutorial that has a "technique" that you can figure out by looking at the photos? Or, sell a tutorial that only after you purchase it, find out that you need super expensive tools to make them.
Sometimes, you might have something that is worth sharing but this does not mean you have to sell it.
Jen, I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. I really do. And Kalera, you too. I get it.
And this might seem nitpicky, Jen, but I do have to say that I didn't choose to come here just to sell my wares to these people. I've belonged to these online forums, both WC and LE, way before I ever had anything to sell. It's my living room too...and my booth...and my respite...and my glassy family. I give as much as I get; maybe that is why it stings when someone complains about how much they pay for something. You'd think we'd all want to support each others' endeavors not beat down.
I think where I'm coming from is that yes...I do think people should not be blabbing the information they learned from books or classes. How is this fair to the other people who paid $500 for that class? OK, so you are in a class you paid $500 to attend. You learn great stuff, then go back to your glassy peeps at home and share what you learned. How is this fair to Suzy who was sitting next to you in class and paid $500 along with you? Or a book...same thing. I honestly don't see the difference.
And as far as wanting paid for time...isn't that exactly what the teacher in the class or the author of a book is getting paid for? Their time and their knowledge---both of which you still do get in a tutorial. Right? or not? You aren't paying in a class for a body to show up and smile at you. You are paying for what they know and their willingness to teach it to you (time). Yes, a class takes me 8 hours. I don't have to reteach the tutorial every time I sell one, but it took me 2 months to put it together. Even if it didn't take me that much time, you are paying to learn something. If you learn it- you got what you paid for. What is the problem with that?
And yes, I can use one person as an excellent example because I bet the threads are fresh enough to find--Michael Barley's baleen beads. I've seen at least twice over the last two-three years someone post a thread asking how to do the baleen beads. The responses in the thread ranged from 'michael barley teaches classes, here's a link' to 'I hear he is coming out with a tutorial soon, we should find out more'. Nobody who had taken his class before was willing to spill it right there for nothing. That is just one example.
I think maybe one of my problems is that I don't own a lot of other people's tutorials. The ones I've chosen contain a LOT of techniques. They are not just for one single kind of bead. They are substantial and heavy and comprehensive to their subject. It is what I want to buy.
I honestly don't know what to do about the whole uncomfortable sharing thing. I've stepped on toes sharing stuff so I know what it feels like from that end and it wasn't even a for sale trade secret. It was something I was just excited that I knew how to do it and I spit it right out and offended someone. Didn't do it on purpose, but I've always felt funny about it.
I don't want people who figure out how to make jellies on their own to feel bad about sharing it, but I don't want someone who learned it from me blabbing it...and how would I ever know how they came about it? I don't keep track of who buys what...my mind isn't that organized.
I don't know how to fix that, but I don't believe it should be a tutorial issue...I think it should bleed over into classes and books too. Maybe people want to share tutorial info more freely because it didn't cost them as much as a class to get it.
Say there is someone out there in real life, because there are more glass workers NOT online that there are ON it, who is right now sitting in his studio writing a book on making jellyfish beads. More power to him. I will get right in line to buy it because I'm always looking for new tricks just like everybody else. Or even if he's got a website (but doesn't network on forums) and posts it for free...I'll download that bugger, you bet. He invariably teaches differently than I do. I WILL learn something from him and I won't begrudge him at all. I would encourage anyone to do that. Learn from all of us. Soak in as much as you can.
Technique, I don't believe, is ever proprietary. Specific design IS. My jellyfish technique is not proprietary. Offhand glass blowers have been doing it for ages. All I did was shrink it down and apply it to a mandrel for my own uses and that is what makes it sellable to beadmakers. People want to know how to do it the way I do it. I don't feel the least bit bad about selling that in class and tutorial form. It's the business side of my glass work and also another way to pass stuff on to other people and see where it goes.
Crap, this is long...sorry.
But what if I tried to sell a tutorial on stacked dot beads? Are there any of those for sale out there? I wouldn't be able to ever ever expect people to not still share independently a technique that is so common. I think that tutorial would still SELL because people are interested in how specific people do things, and that is great...but for that author to expect nobody to talk about stacked dot beads but them is unrealistic and a little crazy.
People talk about the jellyfish technique all the time and some of them don't even know it.
At this juncture, I should probably just be really glad that I'm not thinking about writing anymore tutorials. LOL It's just not worth the negativity. The ironic thing is that we see these threads from buyers saying how they are getting fleeced, or they feel uncomfortable about it...but the personal feedback I get on the tutorials is positive. I don't mean etsy feedback, lol, I mean what people email me to say.
Where are all the sour grapes coming from? Is this from people buying tutorials that are crappy? ARE there crappy tutorials? Are there tutorials out there for basic things that you can get pretty much anywhere for free? If so---why are you buying them? LOL
If it is that simple, figure it out for yourself or if you are super beginner you can get loads of stuff for free on people's websites, these forums...all over the place.
Bottom line- I don't think people should stop sharing stuff and helping each other. I'm not going to stop. Kalera, YOU know you aren't doing anything wrong and if someone thinks you are you can point to your history. You can't protect everyone. If someone gets their knickers in a twist over something like that, I think it is their problem, not yours.
Go back 5 or 6 years through my posts (or everybody's for that matter) at Wet Canvas and here. Go to my website and see if I've given more away for free than I've ever charged anyone for. Then explain to me how you can begrudge me the cost of tutorials.
If I see a new person or anyone asking for help with a technique that I know is available for free everywhere, and there is also a for-sale tutorial, book or class for it...I'll provide all of it for them to research on their own and decide what they want to do. I've posted or read others' posts about plenty of things in the past that I can just link to...things that pre-date ANY of the tutorials out there.
Someone asks about stacked dots, I can reply with a list of dozens of links to free tutorials, books for sale with that technique in them, and expert dot makers who teach. No problemo.
Someone asks about how to do Baleen beads...I'll point them to Michael Barley's website and his etsy shop and any posts here at LE about baleen beads.
I don't honestly know how else to handle it and not hurt people.
~~Mary
Laura B
2010-11-08, 11:18am
IMO, a good tutorial (one I feel was worth what I paid for it) will not be something I read through once. I don't want to buy people's "secrets". I want to learn skills and techniques.
So to me a good tutorial is one that I'm going to refer to more than once. One I will continue to check back with as I progress in my work.
Did that make sense?
I find that the best tutorials are from people who REALLY know their stuff AND (can't emphasize this enough) know how to write.
Sometimes it's not a new technique at all, but merely seeing how an expert does something. And an expert can put enough into a tutorial to make it worth my while, even if it's not a "secret" skill that I'm learning.
Sadly, I've purchased a number of tutorials over the past two years and have been sorely disappointed by most of them (sub-par teaching skills is an understatement).
Having something to say and saying it well are NOT as easy as the majority of people think it is.
There are a few people out there that I've purchased from, however, who totally know what they're doing when it comes to tutorial writing.
Everyday in classrooms across the world people have paid to learn a new skill, trade, art form, occupation etc. In thousands of bookstores at this very minute someone is purchasing a book on how to do something. Many of those books will in turn be passed onto someone else for them to use. All of us have loaned books to friends, shared a recipe we read somewhere etc. People are constantly sharing information they have read, watched or went to class to learn each and everyday. Who hasn't borrowed a video from a friend to watch? In saying all of this, I doubt seriously if those that are so up in arms over someone sharing their information from their tutorials ever gave thought to their borrowing books or asking to borrow a video or sharing either of those things with friends and family. I bet the thought never crossed their minds they were taking money out of the hands of those that wrote the book or produced the video. It's the very same thing that is being discussed here. Information sharing is not illegal unless you are copying the material and distributing it or selling it. Then, its not illegal unless it is copyrighted. lampwork tutorials are no different. I know many would like to believe that lampwork tutorials are in a league of their own and set their own rules on what is moral ethical and legal. I paid for my lampwork tutorials and I will treat them just like any other media I have purchased be it a book, dvd etc. I will NOT copy and distribute the information, but if I choose to let someone read my tutorial I will with no thoughts to this ludicrous dispute. I love having the opportunity to purchase tutorials when I choose to, but when buying one starts putting limitations on what I can share or say to someone then thats where I draw the line. Play hell if a lampwork tutorial is going to restrict my free speech. Now that I've probably pissed everyone off I'll go back to work :)
Vena, I never said it was illegal, you can do what you want. We all can do what we want, which is what I said in a previous post. We all do what we want and we all need to find ways to deal with how other people go about it.
For some people that would mean not writing tutorials anymore. For some that could mean pulling the ones they've already written from the market. For some it might mean beating you to the punch and releasing everything for free, subsequently making everyone who had ever paid full price REALLY mad.
Trust me, I don't try to fool myself into not thinking more of my tutorials have been passed around for free than have actually been paid for. I'd be really stupid if I believed that. What am I going to do about it? Absolutely nothing.
Have fun.
~~Mary
Moth, what I wrote wasn't directed at you. It was just my take on everything I had read. Just wanted you to know I wasn't calling any individual out. We all have our own views, this was just mine. Have a great day:)
Yep, I gotcha.
I don't have to worry about any of this anymore, so you have a great day too!
:-)
~~Mary
moondanse
2010-11-08, 8:52pm
Yep, I gotcha.
I don't have to worry about any of this anymore, so you have a great day too!
:-)
~~Mary
MARY MOTH! Damn it, put your tutorials back in your Etsy shop!
I'm way older than you and I'm going to give you some advice you need--so listen up!
You offer good instruction for a fair price, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that; in fact, that is how everyone lives their lives every day.
EVERYONE sells their time and talent--well, everyone that has a job. Artists, too. NEVER let anyone bully or beguile you into thinking that your time and talent are worthless or should be free, because those same people, I promise you, sell their time and talent in one way or another.
You have a wonderful talent and have produced sought-after tutorials that have satisfied many customers. That is a GOOD thing! Just because a few people have a conversation about how nice it would be to get other's knowledge for free, DO NOT let that affect you--do not take it personally. YOU do what is right for you, and in my opinion, that would be to continue to be helpful, thoughtful, and CONTINUE to sell you wonderful tutorials.
pittypat
2010-11-08, 9:23pm
I agree with Lauren!!! 100%...and I am a lot older than you are too, Mary....this is a perfect example of what happens when a few disgruntled people for whatever reason become the loud MINORITY!!! I have chewed my tongue every time someone writes another opinion and especially ones that use the term "people" to describe THEIR point of view. Chapped ASS is not even close to express how this sets me off...how DARE anyone take it upon theirselves to speak for the "people"...they are certainly not speaking for ME!!! Ths thread needs to be burned and buried....it has gone way past its prime...if I were you, I would sell mine at double the price!! or maybe 1/2 price...you decide...but denying anyone buying one of your tutorials is not right. Get that heart off of your sleeve and hand it over for a few days//Lauren and I will take good care of it....
As far as sub-par teaching, I can say with certainty that I have almost bought all of the tutorials...I love to read how other people do things....I have yet to find any "sub-par" teaching...I taught Nursing for over 10 years, I was sited by the State of Virginia and the ANA for excellence, so I think I can have a valid opinion, but I speak for no one but myself. It is time for the quiet majority to speak up!!!
As far as why anyone would try to sell a tutorial with a technique that can easily be seen from a picture??? I am sorry, but even after four years at the torch, it isn't that easy for me! And several times someone has referred to a tutorial that needs expensive tools and I evidently missed buying that one??
Pat
MARY MOTH! Damn it, put your tutorials back in your Etsy shop!
I'm way older than you and I'm going to give you some advice you need--so listen up!
You offer good instruction for a fair price, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that; in fact, that is how everyone lives their lives every day.
EVERYONE sells their time and talent--well, everyone that has a job. Artists, too. NEVER let anyone bully or beguile you into thinking that your time and talent are worthless or should be free, because those same people, I promise you, sell their time and talent in one way or another.
You have a wonderful talent and have produced sought-after tutorials that have satisfied many customers. That is a GOOD thing! Just because a few people have a conversation about how nice it would be to get other's knowledge for free, DO NOT let that affect you--do not take it personally. YOU do what is right for you, and in my opinion, that would be to continue to be helpful, thoughtful, and CONTINUE to sell you wonderful tutorials.
W.O.R.D.
Laura B
2010-11-08, 9:45pm
Since I'm the one who mentioned "sub-par" writing, let me make it clear that I'm not even a lampworker... the tutorials I've purchased had nothing to do with lampworking.
I can't take back what I said because at least half of the tutorials I've purchased over the past five years have been poorly written.
But keep in mind I also said I've recieved many very well written tutorials. If someone is consistently selling their tutorial and getting great feedback, odds are they are one of the ones who CAN write well.
After I saw Mary's post, I went to her Etsy site and saw how very many tutorials she's sold (one indication that she's probably a good tutorial writer... word of mouth works in this industry) and then looking at all the positive feedback... wow! Mary should feel very proud of her ability to help so many with her tutorials.
Don't really know all the little nuances of this thread... I think each person has to feel comfortable with what they sell, trade, give-away, stipulate, request, etc.
And the person who said "voiced opinions in a thread on a forum can very well be a small minority" is right on. I've seen many make business decisions based on the opinions of a few vocal people. Eek!
scoutycat
2010-11-08, 10:17pm
I think where I'm coming from is that yes...I do think people should not be blabbing the information they learned from books or classes. How is this fair to the other people who paid $500 for that class? OK, so you are in a class you paid $500 to attend. You learn great stuff, then go back to your glassy peeps at home and share what you learned. How is this fair to Suzy who was sitting next to you in class and paid $500 along with you? Or a book...same thing. I honestly don't see the difference.
When I pay for a class, I am paying (hopefully) for the in depth knowledge and access to the teacher as well as learning new techniques. Usually, if I take a class or buy a book, it's in something that I've hit a dead end on and can't figure out how to proceed. Having a real live person demo & answer my questions is invaluable, and there is no way that my 10 min summary should be able to cover that info. I'm not buying secrets, I'm buying information and guidance. A book or dvd are similar - a good one will be one I revisit, and refer to often. I don't feel that sharing that info devalues anything - there is no way I could share the information as well or as completely as a book or class. And if I can it was a waste of money, frankly.
I really don't begrudge anyone making money pretty much anyway they can, as long as it doesn't hurt/take advantage of anyone, so I hope no one is taking my comments as anti-tutorial. I can think what I want about tutorials and their value, and excercise my right to not buy them. It does seem lately that anyone who got asked 3 times how to do that xxxxx thing writes a tutorial and charges 28$ for it, which seems to be devaluing tuts in general and breeding discontent. People expect to learn more than how to make a frit bead (or whatever) for 28$, and are justifiably disappointed when that's what they get. I'm sure some are very good, but there is no quality control (usually provided by a publisher or institution of some sort), and it seems it's hurting everyone - buyers and writers alike.
AKDesigns
2010-11-08, 10:26pm
<go Lauren, go!>
:)
pittypat
2010-11-09, 12:02am
There is that "people" thing again...............
When I pay for a class, I am paying (hopefully) for the in depth knowledge and access to the teacher as well as learning new techniques. Usually, if I take a class or buy a book, it's in something that I've hit a dead end on and can't figure out how to proceed. Having a real live person demo & answer my questions is invaluable, and there is no way that my 10 min summary should be able to cover that info. I'm not buying secrets, I'm buying information and guidance. A book or dvd are similar - a good one will be one I revisit, and refer to often. I don't feel that sharing that info devalues anything - there is no way I could share the information as well or as completely as a book or class. And if I can it was a waste of money, frankly.
I really don't begrudge anyone making money pretty much anyway they can, as long as it doesn't hurt/take advantage of anyone, so I hope no one is taking my comments as anti-tutorial. I can think what I want about tutorials and their value, and excercise my right to not buy them. It does seem lately that anyone who got asked 3 times how to do that xxxxx thing writes a tutorial and charges 28$ for it, which seems to be devaluing tuts in general and breeding discontent. People expect to learn more than how to make a frit bead (or whatever) for 28$, and are justifiably disappointed when that's what they get. I'm sure some are very good, but there is no quality control (usually provided by a publisher or institution of some sort), and it seems it's hurting everyone - buyers and writers alike.
Jen.. (PLEASE) tell me this was an (admittedly weak) attempt to empathize with Moth/Mary and reassure her that you weren't referring to her personally and never meant to hurt her in any way! <sweetsmile>
~Rachel
Don't let other people define who you are, what you do or what you are worth.
Certainly not one person on a message board. ;-)
I don't know how many novels I have bought in my life that I never finished or didn't particularly like. I can't imagine starting a thread on some message board complaining about "lack of quality control".
I suggest people buy tutorials from people they want to learn something from.
Maybe you want 4 or 5 tutorials on encasing florals, maybe you want just one.
I can't imagine not watching a cooking show because I saw Martha Stewart roast a chicken once, I don't want to waste my time watching Alton Brown do one.
Don't buy tutorials if you don't want them. There is no National Bead Tutorial Board that is going to certify whether someone's tutorial has passed any sort of test.
Geez, the things people whine about.
I suggest that if you buy a tut and don't like it you take it up with the author.
don't let other people define who you are, what you do or what you are worth.
Certainly not one person on a message board. ;-)
i don't know how many novels i have bought in my life that i never finished or didn't particularly like. I can't imagine starting a thread on some message board complaining about "lack of quality control".
I suggest people buy tutorials from people they want to learn something from.
Maybe you want 4 or 5 tutorials on encasing florals, maybe you want just one.
I can't imagine not watching a cooking show because i saw martha stewart roast a chicken once, i don't want to waste my time watching alton brown do one.
Don't buy tutorials if you don't want them. There is no national bead tutorial board that is going to certify whether someone's tutorial has passed any sort of test.
Geez, the things people whine about.
I suggest that if you buy a tut and don't like it you take it up with the author.
=d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> =d> <~~~Applause
patienthand
2010-11-09, 5:16am
amen Kevan. Moth... I have mostly stayed out of this thread because it is pointless to defend your work, to people who will never appreciate it. If they dont get it or see the value, they just dont. But it also doesnt effect me one way or the other. I will do what I do and people will either buy it or not. So far I am quite pleased with the sales of the ornament tutorial. Hang in there, dont take it personally, and out your tuts back on your etsy site. This thread is just so much noise in the grand scheme of things.
Candice
Yeah, I really avoided this thread...This is probably a conversation best left for in person, but, I do want to say, Mary, I bought your jelly tutorial, and really, I pretty much knew how to do it before I did, but, yours are so nice!
I felt it was worth spending the money for it. I would pick up a tip or two and I have referred back to it many times.
I am very careful where I spend my money...I have probably purchased half a dozen tutorials, and I really appreciate the information and work that went into them.
I also see some posted, that are clearly not worth my time or money....
I think if someone want to write one, go for it, but think hard if you really have something to share.
IMHO,There are too many cases where a tutorial is offered, for styles, or a look that has been out there in the glassy world for all to know.
Really, this is just a note to Mary to put her tutorials back....they are really good!
jo
KJJames
2010-11-09, 6:26am
Mary, I love my Jellyfish tut. I have learned so many different things from that one tutorial I think that the only thing wrong with it is to keep referring to it as the Jellyfish tut because that minimizes how much is taught in that tutorial.
I bought PTF: Spotlight on Hollow Beads and Vessels. I think that was $15. Great little booklet. Love it. However, there was a wider array of information in Mary's Jellyfish tutorial. Quality was right up there too. Just saying...
Thanks you guys. I didn't expect that, but certainly appreciate it.
I just typed out a big long post and when I re-read it I thought, 'Wow...that is too passive aggressive even for me.' LOL
Basically I was saying that I wasn't totally pulling the rug out from under my tutorials. I was just only going to offer them in book form from now on.
Then I got to thinking about how I've ALWAYS offered them in 3 formats. Since the 2nd week of the very first tutorial all of them have been available as professionally printed, bound books- CDs- and digital PDF files.
If people are unhappy with the digital files, then why do I only sell 2 printed bound books per year and I've only EVER sold one CD?
This is what has me scratching my head. You can get it three ways, and you pick the ones you're complaining about?
Nucking futs.
~~Mary
PS.
Now I don't know what to do. I had every intention of ripping the digital files gone forever until I thought of how I've only sold so few of the books. Do people really want them? Is this REALLY a minority view? (Because I'm starting to feel like I'm punishing everybody for one person's stunt and I don't want to be that person either.) Was I giving it too much weight? I even deleted all the tutorial pages from my website. Totally gone. Now if I decide to put them back I have to totally rewrite that code. LOL That is craptastic.
gubnavnania
2010-11-09, 7:22am
I love buying tutorial in digital files. It's faster and cheaper - no shipping fee, especially for us that live the other side of the world.
So Mary, please don't delete your digital files.
Carols Glass
2010-11-09, 7:29am
In response to "it seems to be hurting everyone, buyers and sellers alike" I would like to say I have never been hurt by any tutorial I have purchased.
What hurts me is to see a writer of a tutorial such as Mary hurt so badly that she removes her tutorials.
Laura B
2010-11-09, 7:38am
I agree that offering tutorials in a digital format opens up a lot more possibilities for customers. Most of us <ahem> prefer instant gratification.
And whoever mentioned quality control... phft... I agree with the person who mentioned novels... I've put down more than I've completed. Does it make me never want to buy another novel again? No.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
GENERALLY, someone who is consistently selling their tutorials must be doing something right. As in... giving the people what they want.
No matter what you do, however, you will never please all of the people all of the time. To try to do that is an exercise in self-defeat.
Carol, that is really sweet and I thank you.
I don't take the complaints about quality to heart because I think my tutorials are strong and I stand behind them. I did a good job.
It's all this other crap that got me. Too many complaints about too many things. Not just this thread there are several and in the past even more about how tutorial authors are 'doing it wrong'.
How in the heck can you do it right, then? Just don't do it? LOL I'm beginning to realize I can't make everyone happy and some people are never happy no matter what you do.
~~Mary
edited to add:
I honestly believe that I've sold more digital files because 1.-they are cheaper and 2.- they are faster to receive than snail mail, in some cases almost instant. This leads me to believe that people want to know and they want to know now. If the majority really cared about having a physical item in their hand that they could resell--they would have bought the books even though they cost more because they would have made almost all their money back.
So where does that leave someone like me who is trying to make everyone happy? It leaves me right back where I started actually. Charging $26 for a printed bound book. Charging $20 for a CD. Charging $18 for a pdf. What the heck else could I possibly do to make people happy? LOL I give up. Either people are going to buy it or they aren't. Right back to my post about 'do what you want'. I feel like a dog with two tails- I don't know which one to chase.
patienthand
2010-11-09, 8:21am
Mary... you have it nailed down... you CANT make everyone happy and I dnt even begin to try. If tyou make your paying customers mostly happy. thats where you focus. For the rest.. its just noise I filter out, or I would be overwhelmed. Here are the things I ask myself..
Did I do my best?
was I fair?
Was I honest?
was I kind?
if I can answer yes to those questions in anything in life... then I am satisfied. Can I learn from experience yes... but you cant change the past, so I have to be satisfied with those personal questions and move forward.
if you spend your life trying to please everyone else, you ultimately are not true to yourself and can never keep the course you have planned for your own life.
Dont take it all personally.... and keep your own values
Candice
Laura B
2010-11-09, 9:23am
... I'm beginning to realize I can't make everyone happy and some people are never happy no matter what you do...
Absolutely.
And there are some of us who should memorize this and think of it often. ME!
Laura B
2010-11-09, 9:25am
... Charging $26 for a printed bound book. Charging $20 for a CD. Charging $18 for a pdf...
Those prices sound really good. I'm about to price something substantial and offer it in various mediums... I like what you've outlined.
Laura, just so you know...I take a loss of profit on the books because that actual printing cost is higher than my price differential shows. I took like $3.00 per tutorial off my side to make the book more affordable. I didn't think people would pay $29. Very few even pay the $26. LOL Just wanted you to know that so you can figure it into your plan.
Laura B
2010-11-09, 9:38am
Laura, just so you know...I take a loss of profit on the books because that actual printing cost is higher than my price differential shows. I took like $3.00 per tutorial off my side to make the book more affordable. I didn't think people would pay $29. Very few even pay the $26. LOL Just wanted you to know that so you can figure it into your plan.
:-) Thanks! I welcome all the information I can get.
When I was (briefly) looking into it earlier this year, it did seem like... "Wow... how much am I going to have to charge for the book in order to not take a loss?!"
Sigh...
scoutycat
2010-11-09, 12:48pm
Jen.. (PLEASE) tell me this was an (admittedly weak) attempt to empathize with Moth/Mary and reassure her that you weren't referring to her personally and never meant to hurt her in any way! <sweetsmile>
~Rachel
None of my comments are directed at Moth/Mary personally at all (other than to answer her specific posts here, since we clearly disagree on a few things), or her tutorial which is probably good value from the sounds of it . I don't have her tutorial or any others, so I'm completely unqualified to make any judgements about the quality of her tutorial or any others. Anything I've said about quality has been based on feedback from others, and what I've seen of ppl advertising their various tutorials, as well as the change in the community since tuts became a big thing. Nothing I've said is directed at any individual, and nothing I've said is intended to hurt anyone in any way.
This whole discussion is important, no matter how uncomfortable it makes people; it wouldn't be so controversial if it wasn't important. Unfortunately, it is hard for people to remain objective. There seems to be a lot of anger, defensiveness and frustration around this thread, and talk of biting tongues or coming out in defence of a friend, but there hasn't been much said that answers the concerns raised by me or anyone else either. To me, that says that people's ideas are being challenged, and they aren't finding good foundations behind their current ideas, or that the issues raised don't have solutions in their world view.
Laura, just so you know...I take a loss of profit on the books because that actual printing cost is higher than my price differential shows. I took like $3.00 per tutorial off my side to make the book more affordable. I didn't think people would pay $29. Very few even pay the $26. LOL Just wanted you to know that so you can figure it into your plan.
Don't take a loss. Price your book at what you need to price it. No reason for you to go broke just to sell something. My books are $32.50 (for digital or printed) and I have sold plenty of them at that price.
You are also paying way too much to print them. PMing you...
Technique should be free, a tutorial is worth what the market will bear.
Laura B
2010-11-09, 2:26pm
Technique should be free...
???
AKDesigns
2010-11-09, 2:57pm
???
:lol: I guess by their terms my tutorial should be free.
Laura B
2010-11-09, 3:20pm
:lol: I guess by their terms my tutorial should be free.
I have to disagree and say on what planet should "technique" be free?
Granted, there are lots of things one CAN learn free of charge, always have been and always will be. And there are lots of things one will happily pay for (books, classes, tutorials, etc.)... always have been and always will be.
I can read as much as I want on the subject of soldering... and did... but at last year's BABE, I took a class from Joe Silvera on the subject of soldering and don't regret it for a second.
Information that incurs a charge almost always goes above and beyond what anyone could learn for free.
I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding what the intention of the phrase "technique should be free" was.
On planet earth, i will happly pay for classes, books and tutorials,
but charging for technique holds this form of art back,
this is my "Observation About Tutorials"
i know im going to be slated for this but on this planet earth im allowed my say.
Dreamscapes Studio
2010-11-09, 5:02pm
In response to "it seems to be hurting everyone, buyers and sellers alike" I would like to say I have never been hurt by any tutorial I have purchased.
What hurts me is to see a writer of a tutorial such as Mary hurt so badly that she removes her tutorials.
^^^^^^
THIS!!!
The direction and nuance of insinuations is very much hurting our incredibly talented community of artists at every level.
Personally ... and I don't think I am the minority on this ... What exactly is it that we are gaining by de-valuing the artists' time and talent and suggesting that they share it for free out of the kindness of their hearts? IMHO the ONLY thing that is going to happen is that the information will stop, period.
If you purchased a book, would you expect the author or the publisher to be there 24/7 as your personal technical support? I think not. But yet we expect this of our tutorial writers ... and every indication I have ever seen has been TOTAL support and backing of what they have "sold you".
I cannot begin to tell you how many times students have showed up on my doorstep, called, emailed at all hours of the day and night to "just ask me one little question about something they're working on". So because I teach classes (not at home) ... I am expected to give up every private moment of my life? But again ... we expect our tutorial writers to be there whenever we "need to ask one little question".
Sorry, but I think the support alone is beyond what the cost of the tutorial is priced at.
As a "personal note" to tutorial writers ... please don't ever stop, there are so many of us that appreciate your wealth of knowledge and truly VALUE all that you put into it ... and "we" ALWAYS will :love::love::love: :kiss:
Laura B
2010-11-09, 5:38pm
On planet earth, i will happly pay for classes, books and tutorials,
but charging for technique holds this form of art back,
this is my "Observation About Tutorials"
i know im going to be slated for this but on this planet earth im allowed my say.
Well, then I'm confused about your use of the word "technique". People have been paying to learn different techniques (in art and otherwise) for many (many!) years. I can't even begin to think why anyone would think teaching technique of any sort should be an entitlement to mankind.
Laura B
2010-11-09, 5:40pm
... As a "personal note" to tutorial writers ... please don't ever stop, there are so many of us that appreciate your wealth of knowledge and truly VALUE all that you put into it ... and "we" ALWAYS will :love::love::love: :kiss:
I doubt any tutorial writers would take seriously the plea of a few people who want hard-earned information and learned skills handed to them on a silver platter for free.
It's laughable.
pittypat
2010-11-09, 6:09pm
There is the "we" i belong to...Pat
And I remain a little confused about "planet Earth" as opposed to???
AKDesigns
2010-11-09, 6:19pm
And I remain a little confused about "planet Earth" as opposed to???
:lol:
Technique: has taken from the dictionary
The method of procedure (with reference to practical or formal details), or way of using basic skills, in rendering an artistic work or carrying out a scientific or mechanical operation
Any method or manner of accomplishing something
Technique: has taken from as i understand it,
If i have seen, read, been shown or worked out a technique i will gladly share for free so other artists will add to that technique to accomplish a better technique.
Dreamscapes Studio
2010-11-09, 7:26pm
I doubt any tutorial writers would take seriously the plea of a few people who want hard-earned information and learned skills handed to them on a silver platter for free.
It's laughable.
^^^
Hopefully ...but ... Mary is a prime example of having hurt feelings ... she has already pulled her tuts from her Etsy and her site.
Hoping that Mary will reconsider ...and... all the tut writers don't feel totally unappreciated and pull all of theirs too ... THEN ... we will sure see a TOTAL non-sharing of information and who could blame them?
AKDesigns
2010-11-09, 7:36pm
A couple of silly people won't get me to pull mine. :lol:
bshelle
2010-11-09, 7:43pm
I have paid a lot of money over the years to learn the techniques of playing a musical instrument, and then charged to pass it on. Why would this medium be any different?
chrissij
2010-11-09, 7:45pm
I don't see how it could be, would be, or should be different...
and ya'll know me. I'm all about entitlement. ;)
gemsinbloom
2010-11-09, 7:45pm
There is the "we" i belong to...Pat
And I remain a little confused about "planet Earth" as opposed to???
Planet Ur anus?
Muahhaha, this thread is beyond silly.
Grow up folks. Many many individuals pay their bills and feed themselves plus their children through their work. And even if they didn't, why are there so many in the lampwork community who feel entitled?
I have never understood this and never will.
If any of you stop sharing your wonderful talent and techniques through your tutorials, I will be very upset with threads such as these. As it stands now, I feel uncomfortable at the notion of ever writing one myself.
Can this nonsense please stop?
If you don't like tutorials, or don't like a price , just don't buy it.
I don't go into Sears and complain to a salesperson about the price of their pajamas. If I don't like it, I don't buy.
Wow, hey, I think there are lots of valid questions about tutorials and information sharing and how that should be handled in our community, but please, tutorial authors, don't pull your tuts off your websites! *I* may wish for printed material, but that doesn't mean I'm your market (I might be a tiny part of it, when I have money to spend), nor that my opinions on anything should dictate how you sell your knowledge! I am not foolish enough to think that I influenced these decisions, however, I think it can be possible for reading a strongly-voiced minority opinion to make people change their course of action, perhaps impetuously. I would say, don't. Instead, hold your course, but engage in the dialogue in order to help work out a cultural code (in our little lampworking culture) for information sharing that works as well as it possibly can work.
scoutycat
2010-11-10, 7:24am
right on, kalera :)
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