Totally cornfused!!

[totallytorched]

Okay, so I have read like a billion safety threads, but they all involve people debating to a point where I am not sure on what to go off of. I am most worried about my tank set up, I have a bigger propane tank than a bbq size(blondeness kickin in) and of course my oxygen. Hubby says it is fine to be in our freestanding garage. But really my question is what do I need other than my regulators and hoses? This may be really stupid, but, I keep reading how everyone is concerned about all the shut offs, but the minor torch itself attaches to the hoses with clamps??? That to me is a safety concern, being that if the hose is by chance leaking, you have an open flame right in front of your face!! Okay I think I am probably being really freakish, but I want to make sure I do it right.

What do I need other than my regulators and hoses to attach to the tanks?
And when I do attach for the first time what exactly do I need to do other than the obvious?


Jenni

[MikeAurelius]

Your husband is technically correct, however, personally, I'd still like to see your propane tank outside. If there were ever a leak that ignited, it is guaranteed you would lose your freestanding garage.

As far as the torch connecting to the hoses, many people use quick disconnects. These will allow you to remove the hoses totally from the torch, quickly.

For an extra measure of safety, you may want to consider flashback arrestors. Personally I don't use them, but they may add an additional level of 'feeling safe' for you.

[BillBrach]

Don't worry about the clamps. People have been using small clamps on welding torches for 75 years or more.

Also, have you ever tried to remove a hose on a Minor that has been clamped on for more than a week or two ?? It is virtually impossible, because of the design of the hose barb on the torch, that the hose pushes on to. I ALWAYS have to slit the hose to remove it. Get in the habit of occasionally checking your hoses along the entire length, and pay particular attention to places of attachment. These always fail first. And, another very easy way to give you a little more "safety margin" is to simply shut both tanks off at the end of your torching session.

It is virtually impossbile to totally eliminate ALL POSSIBLE hazards in our life. What is more important is developing a sense of what is safe, and what isn't, and that is done EXACTLY by what you've already done, which is READ, READ, READ on the subject.

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Your husband is technically correct, however, personally, I'd still like to see your propane tank outside. If there were ever a leak that ignited, it is guaranteed you would lose your freestanding garage.

As far as the torch connecting to the hoses, many people use quick disconnects. These will allow you to remove the hoses totally from the torch, quickly.

For an extra measure of safety, you may want to consider flashback arrestors. Personally I don't use them, but they may add an additional level of 'feeling safe' for you.

Are there any precautions that need to be taken concerning the oxygen that I am presuming you all have in conjunction with the propane. Does it need to be stored away from the shop as well. I havn't seen anything here about oxygen threat. Where can quick connects be purchassed? at Lowes? and can they be connected easily enough for an average Joe or Sandi as the case my be.

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Are there any precautions that need to be taken concerning the oxygen that I am presuming you all have in conjunction with the propane. Does it need to be stored away from the shop as well. I havn't seen anything here about oxygen threat. Where can quick connects be purchassed? at Lowes? and can they be connected easily enough for an average Joe or Sandi as the case my be.

Iv been burning since March in my basement. If there are any veteran flame workers out there that would like to comment please don't hesitate. Iv read enough threads to know I need to get the propane out doors. I think a quick disconnect from the inside would be best to keeep the hoses from the elements when not in use. Also, I live in the pan handle of WV between Ohio and PA. Does anyone know where I might find a class on glass bead making and all the precautions. I do much better to hear and see direction as opposed to reading them.

[BillBrach]

Oxygen by itself, will not burn. It is an accelerant, meaning added to a fuel source, it will make a fire MUCH, MUCH bigger and hotter.

I'd treat the locating of an oxygen tank, just like a fuel tank, meaning outside. If you are not running a huge torch, I'd consider buying an oxygen concentrator off of eBay, and eliminating the tank.

Also, a really serious threat with an ox tank is of it falling over, and the valve getting knocked off. At this point, you have a deadly missile, that is going to wreck your studio. By law, ox tanks MUST be secured, and this is usally done by chaining it to the wall or something else very sturdy and unlikely to be knocked over.

[totallytorched]

Another questionj I have is are supposed to open the on tank valves all the way? I was reading how the safety valve stems only work if it is turned all the way on?? I just want to be sure, I am really driving my husband nuts with all of this, but I don't want to blow our garage and myself to smitherines!!lol Thanks for all the info :wave:


Jenni

[MikeAurelius]

I'll disagree with Bill on this one - oxygen tanks can safely be kept indoors. Provided they are chained in place to prevent them falling and that you keep the protective cover on the unused cylinders.

Always open every valve all the way, regardless whether it is propane or oxygen. Open all the way, all the time *unless the tank is not in use.

[Dale M.]

I have to agree with Bill on tanks outside though it is not a requirement for oxygen (yes for propane).... It saves having to wrestle it inside and maybe down or up stairs... And it takes up space.... IF you have to go outside to shut down/turn on propane, why not do oxygen at same time and same place... Do what makes life simple and wrestling with oxy tanks is not.....

Recently saw a real clean installation where both oxy and propane tank were stored outside in Rubbermaid storage locker similar to one in link below.

Storage Locker (http://www.rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/product/detail.jhtml?prod=HPFG374901+714&attributeId=HPATT4005&nextType=&currentType=HPCAT02&locationId=LOC00001&thirdMenuIndex=5)

Dale

[totallytorched]

Okay thanks so much!! :wink:


Jenni

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Hey everyone, thanks for some good advice. Bill, what is an oxygen concentrator. I would love to eliminate the tank. Tell me its so. I work in the basement and I have to carry the 92er oxygen tank into the garage through the boiler room then through a small doorway(made for smaller people) with a huge step down into a playroom with toys scattered all over the bleeping place up three steps then turn and up one more step over then down a step into the excersize room then finally into my studio. My legs and arms are really getting buffed just carrying these tanks in and out weekly. what a pain the ***. So please tell me what you know about the concentrator.
thanks Sandi

[BillBrach]

Sandi,

Oxygen concentrators are devices used to supply medical grade oxygen for patient homecare. They "filter" the oxygen out of the room air using a special filter called a "molecular sieve".

Size-wise, they are like a fat suitcase, weigh 50-60 pounds, and consume about 500 watts of power. Designed to run 1000's of hours between servicing.

You might be able to find one locally, check with any medical oxygen or medical homecare company. Usually, they will tell you that you need a "prescription" to own one, which is BS. A visit might be much better, and certainly explain that it will NOT be used for medical use. I've bought many in the $50-75 range locally, fixed them up and resold them.

And you can go to eBay and enter 'oxygen concentrator' as the search terms. Look for at LEAST a 5 LPM unit (this is the output volume of oxygen) and ALSO, one that has been tested and they show the oxygen concentration in the eBay ad (concentration shown in PERCENT, a really good unit will be between 90-95% at 4-4.5 LPM output). And if you buy one, make SURE they double box it for shipment.

BTW, you've never said what torch you have. Some of the larger torches will NOT run on one concentrator.

Bill

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Bill,
Ihave a minor burner. Did you say thousands of hours without refilling, refuling? Im still not sure how it works. Does it have to be filled at lets say the welding co.(where I fill my tanks now)?
Sandi

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Bill
I you check this ebay item for me and tell me is this what im looking for. #5599187175
most of the ones I looked at were around $175-200.
Thanks

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Actually I found what looks like a more reputable seller for the oxygen concentrator item #7531172633 on ebay

I understand if you dont have time to look at this.

It seems like I go through to much oxygen and iv never replaced my propane, since march.

[BillBrach]

Sandi,

Thats a great pick !! Those guys, Prefered Medical, are in the business, so I don't think you will have any problems.

And, to answer your previous question, these unit NEVER need to be "filled" as they make the oxygen right out of the room air. But, every 5000-10000 hours they will need internal service. $60 is a little high on the shipping but to pack one right takes over an hour. Their actual shipping charge would be about $40-45.

Bill

[MikeAurelius]

Sandi - in reference to your comment about oxygen usage to propane usage - you are right on the money. When I first started, using a Lynx torch, I went through about 10 "K" tanks (the large 5 foot tall oxygen tanks), to every 20# propane tank I used. I just wish the prices were more "equivalent" - 10 K tanks ran $250 for refill (average of $25 each), and the one propane refill was $15.00. Ugh.

Anyway, provided that your torch is "happy" with a concentrator (and remember that multiple concentrators can be hooked together to provide more "flow" (but not more PSI), good luck to you!

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Ok Bill

Now you have put a big question mark over my head. Is the oxygen that this particular concentrator puts out enough to burn glass? Is the output adjustable? My torch is very "happy" right now, is there a reason it would not be "happy" with a concentrator?
Sandi

[MikeAurelius]

Sandi - oxygen concentrators are a machine that removes nitrogen and other gasses from room air, compress it slightly (to about 8 PSI) and squirt it through a hose to whereever it's needed. Most concentrators put out an oxygen flow at around 92% pure oxygen at around 8 PSI.

The torch you have will determine whether it is "happy" or not. If your torch can run with 8 PSI of oxygen, then yes. There are some torches, such as the new torches from Bethlehem, that do need higher pressures, and those torches will not be "happy" with a concentrator.

If you have a Minor, yes, it will be "happy".

[Kalera]

There's also the option of using two concentrators, which I'm a big fan of; I run my Barracuda on two and it's great.

[BillBrach]

Sandi,

Your Minor will be "fat and happy" on one concentrator. In fact, it won't be 'quite' as hot as on tanked ox, but with operating costs of about 6 cents an hour, YOU will be VERY happy !!

Bill

[Nicker]

Just a side note. I LOVE my minor on my concentrator and propane. I wish someone had told me before I spent all the $$$ on tanked oxy. You'll love it. The concentrator pays for itself in no time. But only for soft glass anything hard takes forever to melt.

[BillBrach]

I only use one concentrator when I melt boro but I change to a pre-mix type of torch, a National 3A, which uses oxygen more 'efficiently'.

Granted, I don't make foot high sculptural pieces, but one ox con works well up to 3/4" or more.

[Mr. Smiley]

A piranah will also melt boro on one concentrator. It's a more efficient torch as well. :) It just can't be huge...

[Rhapsody Fire Beads]

My Barracuda is not happy with one generator even, I can't use the outter ring at all!

~Suzy~

[Mr. Smiley]

My Barracuda is not happy with one generator even, I can't use the outter ring at all!

~Suzy~

Looks like you need another! Maybe better just get two more- LOL ;)

[MikeAurelius]

The Barracuda needs 20 PSI of oxygen, continuous flow. If you've got something like an OG-15, that's part of the problem. I've got a cubic feet per minute (hour?) flow requirement sheet for the torch somewhere around, I'll look up the requirements for you.

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Wow guys- I cant wait to start saving $$$$. Its costing me a fortune in #&*#*&$
Air. What a great idea. Thanks for all the input, I think we will all ,me, my torch and my husband, since I dont actually make any money yet, will be very happy.

[Rhapsody Fire Beads]

What do I need to go with my Generator Mike? It's an airsep, and I can't find any numbers on it???
~Suzy~

[Dale M.]

What do I need to go with my Generator Mike? It's an airsep, and I can't find any numbers on it???
~Suzy~

Is is a generator or a concentrator??? Is there any access panels to get into its guts.... Model numbers may be behind access panel...

Dale

[Rhapsody Fire Beads]

Found them Dale, it's an Airsep GENERATOR Model AS016-3. Hubby has it filling a tank, then to my torch. It sputtered at lot at the torch before he did that. Any suggestions?

~Suzy~

[MikeAurelius]

Here are the recommendations by Bethlehem for *ALL* their torches, from the Piranha up to the Great White:

Propane pressure: 5 PSI
Oxygen pressure: 20 PSI

"Burners attached to an oxygen generator may not perform as well as burners using compressed gas. Oxygen generators may not be able to deliver the volume of oxygen at full flame settings. This is not true for all oxygen generators. Note: if your oxygen generator has a pressure delivery of less than 10 PSI, then it will not deliver the total cubic feet per hour that is needed for full flame."

Piranha: 2.8 cubic feet per hour of propane, 9.6 cubic feet per hour oxygen (79.5/272 liters per hour)

Barracuda: 8.4 CFH propane, 42.0 CFH oxygen (238.6/1192 LPH)

Tiger Shark: 12.0 CFH propane, 48.0 CFH oxygen (340.8/1363.2 LPH)

Great White: 48.1 CFH propane, 84.5 CFH oxygen (1366.0/2399.8 LPH)

Hope this helps.

To get liters per minute from liters per hour, divide liters per hour by 60.

[SELSEY]

Wow guys- I cant wait to start saving $$$$. Its costing me a fortune in #&*#*&$
Air. What a great idea. Thanks for all the input, I think we will all ,me, my torch and my husband, since I dont actually make any money yet, will be very happy.

I have a minor and run one concentrator 95% of the time. Once in a while I will hook up and run with two concentrators. I do that when I'm working with copper green and any other glass that is really tempermental to a reducing flame.

One word of warning that I don't think anyone has mentioned here....they are very noisy. Just so you are prepared. It wouldn't change my decision, I still am very glad I switched.

[sandra j ziolkowski]

One more question about the concentrator- Does it connect easily to the hoses to the torch???? I looked into a place today about buying a used one and the guy sounded positive but its up to someone else, and no price quote yet. It seems that $200 is the average price? For a used one anyway.
The one he pointed out to me had 28000 hours logged one it.
Sandi

[BillBrach]

Most concentrators have a fitting on the front panel called a "B" Oxygen Fitting where the oxygen comes out.

Some have just a hose barb, and in that case, you will cut the brass fitting off the end of the hose, slip the hose over the hose barb, and use a small clamp to hold the hose on.

If you have a choice, just tell them you want to buy one with the "B" fitting.

[Dale M.]

Here is a picture of making a connection to oxygen concentrator.

1. Picture of oxy con with the "tubing adapter" in place for use with medical applications.

2. Oxy con with adapter removed and threaded outlet port showing.

3. Oxygen hose with "B" fitting about to be connected to oxy con.

4. Oxygen hose connected to oxy con.

Your oxygen concentrator may be of a different brand name or style, but the concept is the same. In some cases the adapter in pic. 1 may not be removable, so one just cuts off the "B" fitting in pics. 3 & 4 and slip hose directly on adapter fitting.

647


Dale

[sandra j ziolkowski]

You guys and gals are awsome!!!!! I will let you know how this ends. I jsut blew through 3- 92#ers this past week and and I spend alot more time chasing my two small boys around than I did making beads. If my local contacts fizzle out i'll have to look at e-bay.
Thanks again

[sandra j ziolkowski]

:twisted: It came without a user manual so Im now printing one off ,all 64 pages. It doesnt have a B oxygen fitting it only has little do-hickey above the 02 cylinder( and what is that stuff for?) So Im guessing that little do-Hickey is where I clamp on the oxygne hose? After that Im ready to go? I feel like I did the first time I lit my torch.
Thanks Sandi

[BillBrach]

What do you mean by "do-hickey". Is it something that looks like a 'christmas' tree ??

Some have the 'christmass' tree fitting (Dales' pic #1 above) screwed onto the 'B' ox fitting.

Some have just a short (maybe 1/2" long or so) plastic 'nipple' sticking out the front. If it is the nipple-type, just cut the fitting off the green hose and clamp it on.

Small hose clamps are available at places like AutoZone, Discount Auto Parts, or Pep Boys.

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Bill it is a little, graduated,smaller at the end approximatly 1/2 " long do-hickey. It as two tiers of graduation. I could take a picture maybe. But thats it.
Sandi

[Dale M.]

ACK... There is one concentrator out here that only has a little black plastic ribbed connector that takes a pushon (medical) oxygen hose...

Dont rmember the name of the concentrator, but on another site/post (might have been WC) somebody ran into same thing I believe. Response was something like go to concentrator/medical supplier and ask for a "humidifier bottle adapter". Apparently it pushed on to the plastic fitting and has a "b" oxygen connector on it...

Dale

[sandra j ziolkowski]

That might turn out to be right because this one talks about a humidifier bottle that you can attach to it. I will give it a try.
Sandi

[BillBrach]

Sandi,

A picture might be a good idea. It might be what is called a "luer" fitting. This is a push-on, half twist kind of thing.

Bill

[sandra j ziolkowski]

Im all set with the concentrator. I went to a local store and lied about why I needed it and they gave me a humidifier bottle adaptor. It attached to that do-hickie on the front just right, that was the ticket. Most medical supply stores will not sell to you without a prescription. The one that would wanted 400.00 for the concentrator unit. Anyway it works great. Thanks for the input im sure it wont be the last time you hear from me.
Grateful Sandi

[crystalflipz]

I'm about to take the step up from a Hot Head to an Oxy-Propane set up :grin: My big question is - Do I need to get an Oxygen Regulator if I am going to use an Oxy Concentrator? I'm probably going to get a Piranha and will be piping my propane through a window, so where do I hook the Propane regulator up? Any and all advice will be appreciated. :?

[MikeAurelius]

No - you don't need an oxygen regulator when you are using a concentrator - there's one built into the machine.

The propane regulator threads onto the threaded fitting on the propane tank.