GTT or carlisle?

[northern light]

Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

[Cosmo]

Mirage hands down. But a CC will do nicely as well.

Good luck getting a GTT, though. I've been waiting on a Phantom for over six months now...

[kbinkster]

Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?
The Mirage is much more efficient on gas and oxygen than a CC. It will put the heat to the core of the glass faster than a CC (or any Beth, for that matter). It has more heat density than a CC+ RP (or the Great White, or the 65 HA).

It is not as harsh on your colors - you can work crayon colors without encasing.

It is quieter.

The body stays cool. You won't burn yourself on the barrel of the torch just by looking at it.

It has an amazing flame range.

It can work any type of glass from the most finicky leaded glass to quartz and everything in between.

[Mr. Smiley]

You won't burn yourself on any torch just by looking at it. :lol: Nice jab there Kimberly... :lol:

The CC is the work horse of our industry that got us where we are today. They are built like a tank... maintenance is easy... but the premix centerfire is harsher on colors. They have an optimizer now, that I'm wanting to try. It's supposed to tame the beast. If you're working a lot of clear, it's great as is! I used to have a CC before I got a Mirage. I personally liked the Mirage better for the type of large solid lathe work I was doing. It is not built as tough, but does come with a lifetime warranty... this does not include damage done to the torch my the user. If you are doing hollow work or really need a solid torch that will take abuse, I'd seriously look at the CC. I know you said that price isn't an object, but it's almost half the price. The Mirage is an awesome torch... just make sure you need it before you spend over $1700. ;)

[Mr. Smiley]

GTT torches have a down side... but when you design something as complex as a torch, you can't have every thing. It's give and take, to make it work better in a certain aspect, you may give up another strength other torches have. ;)

[Cosmo]

Well, to reinforce what I said in my first post in this thread - A Mirage is a great torch. A CC is a great torch as well. Is the Mirage $700 better than the CC? That's up to the user to decide. I haven't used a Mirage. I have used a Phantom, and I have used a CC. There are things I prefer a Phantom for, and things I would rather work on a CC.

However, if money were no object, I'd say get a Python. Of course, if money were no object, I'd be discussing whether to buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini. Not which kind of torch to buy...

[MikeAurelius]

The Mongoose is a new torch on the market, specifically designed to address the needs of the growing number of lampworkers who want larger and larger torches. Designed to be modified by the owner simply by adding progressively larger outer rings of flame, it is both the perfect starter torch and the only torch a lampworker will ever need. Cooling of the torch is accomplished by flowing both oxygen and nitrogen through the torch body through cleverly designed stainless micro-tubules. The torch body will never get hotter than you can comfortably touch.

The Mongoose 1 is a both a surface and pre-mix torch, with 7 ports. 3 Valves control the flow of compressed air, oxygen, propane. An additional 4th valve allows you to adjust the mixture of compressed air and propane inside the torch body. True QUADRUPLE mix technology! 2 to 15 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 195.00 plus shipping

The Mongoose 2 is an add-on torch body that slides over your existing Mongoose1 and adds a 30 port outer fire. 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 30 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 250.00 plus shipping

The Mongoose 3 is an add-on torch body that slides over your existing Mongoose 1 and Mongoose 2 and adds a 60 port outer fire. 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 50 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 795.00 plus shipping.

The Mongoose 4 is the final add-on available at this time. It slides over the existing Mongoose 1, 2, and 3, to add an astonishing 150 ports! 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 90 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 1250.00 plus shipping

Special package pricing:

Mongoose 1 and 2: $ 435 plus shipping
Mongoose 1, 2 and 3: $ 1195.00 plus shipping
Mongoose 1, 2, 3, and 4: $ 2200.00 plus shipping

These torches are available for immediate shipment to anywhere in the world.

Gas pressures: Oxygen: 5 to 45 PSI, Propane: 2 to 20 PSI, Compressed Air: 10 to 20 PSI. The range used by the torch will depend on the number of outer rings being used. Nitrogen is used as a cooling gas only, and requires .5 PSI continuous flow.

Footswitches will be coming soon, specially designed for the 3 ports (oxygen, compressed air, and propane), as well as the 4 total rings of flame.

[Cosmo]

Mike,

Where can we get more info on the Mongoose? Who makes them? Sounds very interesting...

And, to everyone else, sorry for disrupting the post. The Carlisle and GTT are both good torches, as are Bethlehems (which I currently use, at the recommendation of Brent and others). I would, however, take what you read in this thread and others on this board (both good and bad) into account no matter what torch you buy...

[kbinkster]

Mike, can you run it on a concentrator?

Oh, and the compressed air option is great. You can add compressed air through torches without a dedicated inlet, btw. Ask me how and I will explain. This is beneficial to anyone wanting to do thin hollow work.

[Cosmo]

I know Carlisle has that "optimizer" for adding compressed air, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I don't know much about it. Don't Herbert Arnold torches use compressed air as well?

[Cosmo]

Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

I bet you never thought your first post on this board would be so popular, huh?

[MikeAurelius]

Kimberly, no. Tanks or liquid only.

[bhhco]

Mike,
At Mongoose level 4 there are 16 valves?
Did I add right?
Bill

[MikeAurelius]

Yep. a set for each ring.

[kbinkster]

I know Carlisle has that "optimizer" for adding compressed air, but I don't know anyone that uses it so I don't know much about it. Don't Herbert Arnold torches use compressed air as well?
Yes, HAs use compressed air.

When using compressed air with a Herbie, be sure to have a water trap in place. It can be an expensive mistake not to (there was a thread about it on the GLDG).

For other torches without the dedicated inlet, you just add air through the propane line. This works well for four stud torches. It is important to have an in-line regulator for the air. Jason Howard used to make these set-ups, and may again if he is persuaded to with enough interest.

[Cosmo]

A Herbie is something I've never used. And, quite frankly, they look a little scary to me...

[pam]

Ok, let's pretend that $ is no object...tough, yes, but I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the carlisle CC versus the GTT Mirage. I would really like to get into larger boro work, vessels, sculpture. any advice?

I personally would go with the Mirage, as the CC is internal mix on the single center port and surface mix on the outer 34 ports. The boro colors don't develop as easily as on a complete surface mix torch. The Mirage has seven center ports with 33 outer ports, all surface mix. During classes working colored boro, the people working on CC's generally had a harder time getting the colors. You will have more versatility with the Mirage, as you can still do smaller work using the inner 7 ports, similar to a Lynx.

I hope that helps.
Pam

[bhhco]

A Herbie is something I've never used. And, quite frankly, they look a little scary to me...

What attracted me to the HA was once you set up the flame balance you could adjust the flame from full to pinpoint with just one knob, big to little, and anywhere in between, and the balance remained the same.
What scared me was the price.
Bill

[kbinkster]

A Herbie is something I've never used. And, quite frankly, they look a little scary to me...
They do look a little scary to some people. I was taking Makenzie for a spin through the technical exhibit area at the GAS conference and when we passed by one, she cried. Personally, I find them interesting. Not too many people know how they work.

The thing about Herbies is that they tune them at the factory for your specific application. So, if you work soft thin hollows, that is what they tune it for. If you work hard solids, that it what they tune it for. Everything is preset at the factory, so when you get it home, you just adjust the one control knob. The more you turn the knob, the center fire turns on, and then the next ring of fire comes on, and then the third ring...

The down side is that if you have your HA configured for one thing (hollow work, for example), it won't be very effective for other work (solid work, for example). And, if you start messing with the hex nuts and stuff other than the one control knob, you are asking for trouble.

To get around this, guys with HAs will often put inline regulators up at the torch so they can control the flame that way.

[Cosmo]

What scared me was the price.

Yeah, that too. They start at like $2200 or something, don't they?

Of course, I'm sure I'll own one before long. I'm on a mission to own one of every torch brand. Then probably one of every torch model.

Yes, I'm a torch-whore. I admit it.

[MikeAurelius]

ooooooooo....what he said......ROFL!!!

[pam]

Someone (forget who - just remember the torch) was demo'ing at a GAS conference with an HA and she had a heck of a time getting it set up. Evidently it is extremely sensitive and because she moved it from her home to the conference it was all messed up. As I remember it it took her about 45 minutes to get it to work and then it wasn't right, she said. I think I prefer a simpler life, thank you.

[Cosmo]

Well, I've heard with Herbies, you either swear by them or you swear at them. The guys I have talked to that use them won't use anything else. It does look like a big adjustment to me.

[Kevan]

We saw a really nice torch at Fratz a couple of weeks ago called a Bullet Burner. Everyone there really liked it, but they don't actually carry it. It was small in stature, but you cold really control the flame and it just didn't get hot. All the guys wanted one.

Not that I know anything about torches. We have a GTT Cheeta and I don't use it.

[Mr. Smiley]

I liked the CC much better after my class with Mickelsen. Before that class, I really didn't care too much for it. That style of larger sculpture really worked well with that torch. It's a beast and you can manhandle it.

The Bullet didn't impress me when I had it for a few weeks. It's a good torch and Selchow really loves his... I just didn't like it for what I do. ;)

[PaulaD]

Those of you waiting for a torch don't feel bad. I've beem waiting for a Lucio torch since September. I know people are getting them but I'm not. I don' think I even want it anymore. I think I'm over my sculpture wanna be phase. Paula

edited to add...The torch just got here and it's a beauty!!

[Cosmo]

Not that I know anything about torches. We have a GTT Cheeta and I don't use it.

Wanna sell it?

[MikeAurelius]

A torch, any torch, will be only as good as the person using it.

Those are my thoughts, and mine alone. Mine, do you hear me? MINE!!! No one else can think this!!!! MIIIIINNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hehehehehehehehehehe

[Cosmo]

A torch, any torch, will be only as good as the person using it.

Those are my thoughts, and mine alone. Mine, do you hear me? MINE!!! No one else can think this!!!! MIIIIINNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hehehehehehehehehehe

In that case, maybe I should start using a can of hair spray and a lighter as my torch...

[MikeAurelius]

ROFL...I think I better stop eating raw coffee. You think?

[Mr. Smiley]

Keep eating it Mike. I like you much better on raw cofffee! :lol: That was funny! :D

[kbinkster]

Wanna sell it?
I think you would have to ask Kevan's husband. He's the one who uses the Cheetah.

[kbinkster]

BTW, back to the original question that started this thread...
You don't need a GTT Mirage to outperform a Carlisle CC. A GTT Phantom will do it.

And, the Phantom, like all GTTs, is a completely surface mixed torch. It is much kinder on your colors.

The Phantom uses less oxygen and less gas than a Carlisle CC. This is valuable if you are working production. You might want to visit the GLDG and look at the threads over there comparing these two torches.

As far as GTTs not being built as tough as Carlisles, that's true, they're not - they're built tougher. Bulk does not equate toughness. GTTs are built to hold up against quartz. Carlisles are not. True, you can crack off a punty on a Carlisle, but you can crack one off on a GTT, too. Just crack it off on the taper/cone. If you crack it off on the barrel, you will probably dent the barrel. This is cosmetic and will not affect the performance of the torch.

Further, the toughness of the internals of a torch matter more than the toughness of the externals. GTTs are definitely tougher on the inside.

For a torch to be a workhorse, it has to be dependable. "Workhorse" should not mean that you have to work like a horse to work your glass.

[Mr. Smiley]

:lol: According to you Kim, GTT is always the best, in any given situation... now you claim they are tougher than a CC... come on. =;

[kbinkster]

Well, why don't you take both torches and run them on quartz and see for yourself which one holds up longer.

That is a practical measurement of "toughness" for a torch - not whether or not you can drive nails with it. You don't use a torch as a hammer, do you? You need a torch to be able to stand up to what a torch should stand up to. You need the torch to be well-built with high quality materials both inside and out.

[Mr. Smiley]

Well, why don't you take both torches and run them on quartz and see for yourself which one holds up longer.

That is a practical measurement of "toughness" for a torch - not whether or not you can drive nails with it. You don't use a torch as a hammer, do you? You need a torch to be able to stand up to what a torch should stand up to. You need the torch to be well-built with high quality materials both inside and out.

In a lot of studio situations, you do the equivalent of driving nails with the torch. I don't man handle mine, but some people travel alot... some people use them as a hand torch and yes, torches do get dropped. I don't work quartz... and don't plan to, so the test you are referring to, doesn't matter to me. I had a CC that was about 50 years old. You could tell by the dents on the barrel / face rim, that it had been dropped several times... it still ran like a champ! The CC has external valve assemblies, so if you drop it on a valve and damage it or the baggage handlers get crazy with it, they are easily replaced by the end user for very little money... I could go on, but it's pointless because a GTT can melt more quartz, so it's obviously tougher. :lol:

[kbinkster]

Have you ever replaced a valve assembly, yourself? Does this void any warranty that Carlisle may have on the torch? Do you know how much Carlisle charges to replace a valve assembly?

The question is not about how much quartz a torch can melt, necessarily, it is about how the torch (the face in particular) holds up to those conditions.

And, yes, traveling with a torch is very important to many people - especially teachers. That is why some people absolutely love to teach/travel with their GTTs. After a class, they are able to just pick up the torch and pack it away... no need to wait for it to cool down.

[Mr. Smiley]

Have you ever replaced a valve assembly, yourself? Does this void any warranty that Carlisle may have on the torch? Do you know how much Carlisle charges to replace a valve assembly?

No, I haven';t done it, but I did call Carlisle once and asked how much one was. They told me... I'd hate to quote a wrong price and have you correct me... so we'll leave it at "reasonable". They did tell me I could do it myself. Have you looked at a CC and seen how easy it would be? Kind of a no brainer.

The question is not about how much quartz a torch can melt, necessarily, it is about how the torch (the face in particular) holds up to those conditions.

If you aren't going to expose the torch face to those conditions, why does it matter? If a CC can burn for thousands and thousands of hours in a studio situation, I'm sold on the depandability of it.

And, yes, traveling with a torch is very important to many people - especially teachers. That is why some people absolutely love to teach/travel with their GTTs. After a class, they are able to just pick up the torch and pack it away... no need to wait for it to cool down.

I suppose if your flight is an hour or two after the class ends or you aren't very social with your students, this would be a plus...



:D :D :D

[PaulaD]

If you can get the the Gathering you can try both and talk to the Carlise and GTT people. I especially like the Carlisle company as it's owned by a very nice lady and I'm an old feminist. How is that for a scientific reason?? Paula

[JABOKA]

If you can get the the Gathering you can try both and talk to the Carlise and GTT people. I especially like the Carlisle company as it's owned by a very nice lady and I'm an old feminist. How is that for a scientific reason?? Paula
Sounds like a perfect reason to choose Carlisle Paula!!! Although, if you haven't noticed i'm PMS'in pretty bad today so any "female" reason is good enough for me...men suck in my eyes today and for the next 5 or 6 days to come!!! (except of course my hero Smiley...hehe)

[kbinkster]

Mirage hands down. But a CC will do nicely as well.

Good luck getting a GTT, though. I've been waiting on a Phantom for over six months now...
Wow, Chad, six months sounds like an awefully long time to wait for a Phantom. I know that GTT has sent Phantoms out to their distributors within the last six months. If you would like to PM me with the distributors whose lists you are on, I would be happy to look into it for you.:koolaid:

[MikeAurelius]

Nicely edited, thank you, mods!

[Cosmo]

Wow, Chad, six months sounds like an awefully long time to wait for a Phantom. I know that GTT has sent Phantoms out to their distributors within the last six months. If you would like to PM me with the distributors whose lists you are on, I would be happy to look into it for you.:koolaid:

Until I see how much it's going to cost me to get Simba out of the vet, I'm not spending another dime. I'm thinking I could buy two or three torches for what it's going to cost me to get the little guy better.

However, once I get past all this vet stuff, I'll definitely be talking to you about a torch...

[Just Nancy]

Is there any way you can try each before buying? This is such a personal thing. I went with my Bobcat over a Minor (I know different class torch) because I didn't like the Minor's knobs and because of what I'd read about them.

I plan to replace my Bobcat as soon as possible and hope to be able to try others before I buy. It will probably be a Bethlehem torch. I've seen them in use, and like what I read.

Seems like some are brand loyal and others ready to jump ship. I'm not sure where the urban legends pop up about one company or another. But I think all companies have customer service issues. (Even owners of companies have bad days here and there.) Those who have had bad experiences tend not to want to do business with that company again. So if two torches are similar and someone brand loyal makes a recommendation there is bias. If someone who has had a problem makes the recommendation there is bias.

Too bad there isn't a way to include that in our suggestions without it becoming negative.

[Cosmo]

Well, it probably won't help you too much since you're in the midwest, and I'm on the east coast, but that's what I'm trying to get set up here. I want to have at least one of every brand's "entry level" torch set up for customers to try, both on tanked/liquid oxygen, and on concentrators. I'm going to have at least one Minor, Mini CC, Bobcat, and Betta that stay set up all the time, and can be switched from concentrators to tanks quickly. Hopefully I'll also be able to have larger models from the different manufacturers set up as well.

[MikeAurelius]

Going to the Gathering would be a good option, Nancy. They usually have open torch and almost all of the torches are there and available to play with.

[Cosmo]

Going to the Gathering would be a good option, Nancy. They usually have open torch and almost all of the torches are there and available to play with.

Yeah, that too...

:D

[Just Nancy]

Yah, I'm not thinking the Gathering is for me. But that's a whole thread hi-jack and I'm not going there. I'm just pretty sure I won't buy a GTT. I know several places where I can try a barracuda so that's a first step.

[kbinkster]

Until I see how much it's going to cost me to get Simba out of the vet, I'm not spending another dime. I'm thinking I could buy two or three torches for what it's going to cost me to get the little guy better.

However, once I get past all this vet stuff, I'll definitely be talking to you about a torch...
As far as talking to me about a torch purchase, talk to Wally. While I have a personal relationship with Willy, and try to help people as much as I can, I am not an employee of GTT.

I read elsewhere about Simba, poor little guy. I hope he gets better soon.

[Cosmo]

Well, yeah, by "you" I meant GTT...

[PaulaD]

Cosmo that's an awesome idea!! I thought about it but didn't have the space to do it!!
I've got just about enough space to add a few more torches which we desperatly need. 10 wasn't enough!

So I'm adding the Cuda and the Dragon and maybe a Phantom after I try one at the Gathering...
Paula

[Cosmo]

Ahh. I forgot about the Kinght torches. I'll have to look into those as well. We're also getting a hot head for people to try out. Believe it or not, I've never worked on one of those...

[smutboy420]

If you plan on wacking off punties on a gtt get a good torch mounted marveler and wack off on that. ( Wow that sounds funny lol ) No worry about denting it up or other cosmedic issues that way.


But as far as the price difrence any GTT you pick will pay for its self in saved o2 in the long run. They use a LOT less oxygen and less gas than a Carlisle CC

I can atest that Even the big gtt's eat less then a Carlisle CC.
The o2 system we have up at the shop.(onsitegas systems pro8) has all it can do to keep up with a CC runing full blast. But I can run a delta torch on it and I have pleanty of o2 left over for the red max to be used at the same time. and the delta can make a lot more heat then the cc.
So if a delta can save enought o2 to run a second torch. one of the smaller ones has to save a lot on o2 if using tanked o2 or liquid even for that matter.

[pam]

Is there any way you can try each before buying? This is such a personal thing. I went with my Bobcat over a Minor (I know different class torch) because I didn't like the Minor's knobs and because of what I'd read about them.

I plan to replace my Bobcat as soon as possible and hope to be able to try others before I buy. It will probably be a Bethlehem torch. I've seen them in use, and like what I read.

Seems like some are brand loyal and others ready to jump ship. I'm not sure where the urban legends pop up about one company or another. But I think all companies have customer service issues. (Even owners of companies have bad days here and there.) Those who have had bad experiences tend not to want to do business with that company again. So if two torches are similar and someone brand loyal makes a recommendation there is bias. If someone who has had a problem makes the recommendation there is bias.

Too bad there isn't a way to include that in our suggestions without it becoming negative.

Nancy, I totally agree with you. I have used almost all the different brands of torches at one time or another, and it all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you want to do, the versatility you need or want in a torch. Nothing anyone can say can make up for actually trying it yourself. Perhaps there are lampworkers in your area that have different torches so you can do your own research. I don't know of any place where you can actually line the torches up side by side and test each one of them except that Gathering, and you have already said you don't think that's for you. Torches are very personal pieces of equipment and you can listen to everyone and still not get what is best for you. The best thing I can tell you is that there is a very good market for used torches, so if you buy a torch and find that you don't like it, then more than likely you can sell it without losing too much money.

Good luck on your search,

[patiwalton]

Besides being really cool looking, I have noticed that in the dead heat of the summer, our shop is much cooler running the GTT torches. To me that is important. When I was teaching 2 murrini classes in San Antonio last year, I used a minor during the first class. I demonstrated a seahorse murrini and it took forever to heat it through. The 2nd class I asked to use a bobcat and the difference was amazing. It was a breeze heating up the murrini and I realized that even the Bobcat is a terrific torch.

Pati

[patiwalton]

I was going off track for a minute I use a phantom and Johnny uses a Mirage. I work with soft glass mostly (sometimes boro) and Johnny is strictly boro.

It is a personal decision but if I was to choose a torch to use for the next 5 to 10 years, it would be a GTT. The customer service is fantastic. I have never had a problem with them EVER. A couple of years ago my torch I knocked my torch off my bench (me being stupid) and it crashed to the cement floor and and one of the oxygen knobs bent and I was Totally bummed. I sent it to Wally and it was returned within 5 days, it looked shiny and new and it was completely tuned up and repaired. That's really excellent service.

Pati

[Just Nancy]

The best thing I can tell you is that there is a very good market for used torches, so if you buy a torch and find that you don't like it, then more than likely you can sell it without losing too much money.

I think this is a really good point that people probably don't hear enough. My case, I probably won't try to sell it. I had thought I'd get the propane knob checked out and then consider selling it. I'm not sure I'll ever be comfortable selling this torch, maybe if I list it 'as is', I don't know.

But while I think getting the right torch is important, I'm glad I got one and didn't wait any longer to move up. (Same with buying a kiln. Sure one may suit someone better than another but any kiln is better than no kiln.) I just wish I'd gotten a different response from customer service. I was expecting to pay for anything they did because the torch was about a year old. Their response just make it where I don't see buying from them again. But that's a different thread.

[kbinkster]

Nancy, I remember from previous posts that you were having a problem with your Bobcat. I also remember that I suggested that you send it in. Really, the best thing to do is to send it in and let them take a look at it. If there is a problem with the torch, they can fix it. Sometimes, all it needs is a good cleaning. Even if you do not keep it for your own use, you could sell it in good conscience.

They can't "make it right" if you don't give them the chance to by sending it in.

You know, this is true for any torch. The manufacturer cannot fix a torch they don't have in the shop. There are so many times that I have read about problems with different torches and many times, the person posting about the problem had not yet contacted the manufacturer before complaining loudly on the forum. My standard response has always included "call the manufacturer" and in many cases "send it in."

Now, if a person had sent the torch in and was still having problems with it and the manufacturer was being unresponsive/unwilling to try to fix things, then I could see coming onto the forum and complaining.

From what I know of the torch companies out there, none of the torch companies (even competitors of GTT) will turn someone down when they ask to send in a torch to have someone look at it.

[Just Nancy]

I did e-mail the manufacturer. And there was a phone call. I'd prefer not drag this further into the public.

[kbinkster]

OK, Nancy. Just know that if ever/whenever you're ready to send it in, they're there to help. If there's anything I can to do to help you, PM me.

[JABOKA]

The Mongoose is a new torch on the market, specifically designed to address the needs of the growing number of lampworkers who want larger and larger torches. Designed to be modified by the owner simply by adding progressively larger outer rings of flame, it is both the perfect starter torch and the only torch a lampworker will ever need. Cooling of the torch is accomplished by flowing both oxygen and nitrogen through the torch body through cleverly designed stainless micro-tubules. The torch body will never get hotter than you can comfortably touch.

The Mongoose 1 is a both a surface and pre-mix torch, with 7 ports. 3 Valves control the flow of compressed air, oxygen, propane. An additional 4th valve allows you to adjust the mixture of compressed air and propane inside the torch body. True QUADRUPLE mix technology! 2 to 15 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 195.00 plus shipping

The Mongoose 2 is an add-on torch body that slides over your existing Mongoose1 and adds a 30 port outer fire. 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 30 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 250.00 plus shipping

The Mongoose 3 is an add-on torch body that slides over your existing Mongoose 1 and Mongoose 2 and adds a 60 port outer fire. 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 50 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 795.00 plus shipping.

The Mongoose 4 is the final add-on available at this time. It slides over the existing Mongoose 1, 2, and 3, to add an astonishing 150 ports! 4 additional valves. Outer fire ring is capable of 90 mm flame diameter.

Price $ 1250.00 plus shipping

Special package pricing:

Mongoose 1 and 2: $ 435 plus shipping
Mongoose 1, 2 and 3: $ 1195.00 plus shipping
Mongoose 1, 2, 3, and 4: $ 2200.00 plus shipping

These torches are available for immediate shipment to anywhere in the world.

Gas pressures: Oxygen: 5 to 45 PSI, Propane: 2 to 20 PSI, Compressed Air: 10 to 20 PSI. The range used by the torch will depend on the number of outer rings being used. Nitrogen is used as a cooling gas only, and requires .5 PSI continuous flow.

Footswitches will be coming soon, specially designed for the 3 ports (oxygen, compressed air, and propane), as well as the 4 total rings of flame.
Mike, I see that someone has already asked you where to find info on the Mongoose torch and I could not find an answer. I did a search here on the internet and could not find anything. Do you know where i can find the info? I am about to purchase a new torch. I have had a lot of trouble with my cuda. And on kbingsters side....i hate hot torches!!! And the cuda COOKS! They have replaced the torch once already because it blew fire in my lap out the back end of the torch one day. The replacement has had a problem with the center candle since the day i recieved it. Believe it or not (kbingster can kick my a** if she wants. Although I never said GTT was a "bad" torch) I am thinking of purchasing a cheetah. anyway, I would love to check out this Mongoose!

[Just Nancy]

OK, Nancy. Just know that if ever/whenever you're ready to send it in, they're there to help. If there's anything I can to do to help you, PM me.
Thanks Kim. It will be nice to get worked out sometime soon. I'm sure it will turn out to be something obvious.

[kbinkster]

Kris, the Mongoose is a fictional torch. Mike made it up for an April Fool's Day joke a year or two ago. I don't know if it survived the hacker attack on the old GLDG board.

Pretty elaborate/creative joke. And, the punchline is in the name, "Mongoose" since a Mongoose kills snakes, particularly Cobras.

As far as me kicking anything, you can express whatever opinion you want to about me, GTT, or whatever, and I won't have a problem. I may disagree, but... It's just when people post untruths or personal attacks that I have a problem and will speak up.

About your cuda center candle, it is normal for them to have a center candle that is longer than the rest. If it is significantly more yellow tipped than the others when trying to run a neutral flame, and you are unable to clean it up, it can be a problem. That would indicate that that center jet is not receiving as much oxygen as the rest. But, if it is just like the others, but a little bit longer, it should be fine.

[kbinkster]

Thanks Kim.
You're welcome, Nancy.

[JABOKA]

Kimberly, the center candle can be fixed by adding oxy but it seems to make the rest of the flamea little to oxydized. My biggest complaint is how hot the cuda gets. I can not tell you how many swear words and burns have evolved from this. I seem to rest my pinky on the barrel and i am sick of getting burnt! Anyway I am going to ordera cheetah i think. My only concern is I am used to the inner and outer fire. I wonder if this will screw me up with larger beads.....hmmm, I didn't think of that.

[JABOKA]

If I knew i could get a phantom...I would buy it today! Any suggestions????

[PaulaD]

I would wait to buy. Carlisle is coming out with another torch soon. That's all I can say and I am not associated with them..! But you may want to see it first! Hmmm, I wonder if it will be at the Gathering??!!

Btw Kris my knobs only get hot on the mini cc's when I lower the pressure too much!

Paula

[Cosmo]

Kimberly, the center candle can be fixed by adding oxy but it seems to make the rest of the flamea little to oxydized. My biggest complaint is how hot the cuda gets. I can not tell you how many swear words and burns have evolved from this. I seem to rest my pinky on the barrel and i am sick of getting burnt! Anyway I am going to ordera cheetah i think. My only concern is I am used to the inner and outer fire. I wonder if this will screw me up with larger beads.....hmmm, I didn't think of that.

If you are happy with the torch other than that, I would suggest you get a torch mounted marver. I have an L marver on my Tiger Shark, and I rest my hand on it all the time. No burns to show for it.

I know Generations Glass has them. That's where I got mine.

[PaulaD]

Frantz has them with a marble hole on one side of the marver. Super Cool! I just ordered one for the Cuda that I am finally hooking up today!!

Paula

[MikeAurelius]

doggone it, kimberly! you let the mongoose out of the bag!!!

(chuckling)

[kbinkster]

Sorry, Mike.
*snicker*

Hey, wait a minute... could that be the new torch Paula is talking about? Maybe it isn't a joke, after all.

[JABOKA]

If you are happy with the torch other than that, I would suggest you get a torch mounted marver. I have an L marver on my Tiger Shark, and I rest my hand on it all the time. No burns to show for it.

I know Generations Glass has them. That's where I got mine.
..lol...I wish that would work....I have a torch mounted marver. This torch gets so hot...it cooks the marver as well

[MikeAurelius]

Sorry, Mike.
*snicker*

Hey, wait a minute... could that be the new torch Paula is talking about? Maybe it isn't a joke, after all.

HEY, I've got a patent on that idea!!!! ROFL!!!

[northern light]

sounds like an interesting torch. can it operate with only compresses air, or is the compressed air and suppliment to an oxy tank?

Northern Light

[northern light]

So of coarse money is an important consideration....now I'm wondering if the mirage is bigger than I need. I'm hoping to work with goblets and figures roughly 6"-8" tall....perhaps the phantom is enough?

[northern light]

I'm wondering if the Mirage is more than I need. What can the Phantom do? I'm hoping to create goblets and figures not more that 10" tall....can a Phantom handle it and save me some money?

[kbinkster]

The rule of thumb is up to 12" on the Phantom, although it is possible to get bigger pieces with some good skills. Willy has seen up to 15" on a Phantom... But, again, the rule of thumb is 12".

So, for what you are describing, the Mirage is more than you need. The Phantom will do just fine.

[Mr. Smiley]

If you are looking at doing hollow forms and not solid work, the width of the flame is more important than the ability to penetrate heat deep into the piece quickly. Can you do this work on a Phantom, sure... would it be easier with a CC or other wide flame? Yeperz, it would... especially for a beginner. Just my .02

[kbinkster]

Can you adjust your flame (on a Phantom) and work where it feathers out and is wider? Absolutely. Can a beginner do this? Of course. Is it easier for a beginner to not have to encase colors or worry about easily scumming glass? Yes.

The notion that GTTs are only good for hard thrusting flames is a misconception.

Does this discount anyone else's opinion? Opinions are opinions, and everyone is entitled to one.

[Mr. Smiley]

Nobody said a hard driving flame is all they are good for... but the hard driving flame they are better at than a CC is not necessary when working most tubing applications. The wider flame of the CC would be better suited for this type work in my opinion... and a CC isn't as hard on colors if you are working with the wider flame further out. Once you get out from the face, the premix centerfire isn't that harsh. Working on it in Mickelsen's studio really gave me some perspective on the CC. I just think the wider flame of the CC is going to give a more even heat base for this situation. That just makes it easier to heat the whole piece evenly to blow it out, with a lot less hassle. Best of luck, whatever torch you get. Hollow forms are fun, but tricky to master. Reading the heat base in the glass is most important. You want even glow all over. Get a case of 20-30 mil scalloped tubing. The lines will help you read the glass. ;)

[Kalera]

Thanks, mods, for cleaning up this thread and restoring it to usefulness!

My only input is that while I adore my Barracuda, if money was no object and I was up to making the switch to tanked oxy I would get a Phantom. I still want to look into the Knight Bullet, too.

[Coffeebean]

Wanna sell it?
see....I was going to suggest she just plum give it to me \\:D/ :grin:

[Norskiglass]

I have worked one every Carlisle,GTT (except phantom) Nortel,Knight whatevers (same as carlisle) and Herbert Arnold Zenit burners.......Carlisle is a great entry level torch for the money and for what it does. GTT's are (to me ) cute torches that have dinky little knobs.....and the bigger the torch gets ~add more knobs sounds like a great idea untill you put glass in your hands and need to adjust 5 or 6 of them. Nortel works great for what they are an I tried one out similar to the CC before they had been released and for the money you cannot knock that!

After I purchase my 40mm H.A Zenit burner I decided to get the 50mm and the 65mm to add to my arsenal of equipment. ~The are noiseless, efficiant, precise, and in my opinion indestructible in design and simple to adjust, ergonomically correct....however they are not easy for some people to understand and why that is I don't know or really want to.

I sat down with a scientific lab glassblower whom has also done glass art since the 70's his opinion was "Carlisle's are great! GTT's are overpriced and found them to be flawed in design for the user not to mention the "touchy head syndrome" said nothing about Nortel or the Knight bullet/carlisle repro
.....when he looked at my H.A's he immedietly produced an antique model with brass head and fittings with the one knob adjustment.

We never discussed prices since it doesn't really matter in scheme of things we did discuss the flame produced and that of Carlise and HA with the HA being a far hotter flame with much more refinement and more importantly
~Its simply years ahead of its time when they started production in the 50's

What would I buy? The torch the best suits my needs as well as the one that is simple to use because I want to work the glass ~not the 6-10 knobs!

[oldschooltofu]

gtt all the way
they will recondition them for free for life

i have
2 deltas
2 mirages
2 phantoms
1 lynx
in my shop.

[G.L.McBead]

Kimberly, the center candle can be fixed by adding oxy but it seems to make the rest of the flamea little to oxydized. My biggest complaint is how hot the cuda gets. I can not tell you how many swear words and burns have evolved from this. I seem to rest my pinky on the barrel and i am sick of getting burnt! Anyway I am going to ordera cheetah i think. My only concern is I am used to the inner and outer fire. I wonder if this will screw me up with larger beads.....hmmm, I didn't think of that.

Knight Bullets are great torches,they never get too hot to touch.
I have had mine for over 2 years and wouldn't trade it for a car lode of GTT or any other torch.It's like a little tank.
G.

[G.L.McBead]

Thanks, mods, for cleaning up this thread and restoring it to usefulness!

My only input is that while I adore my Barracuda, if money was no object and I was up to making the switch to tanked oxy I would get a Phantom. I still want to look into the Knight Bullet, too.

If you are in the Olympia area anytime you are wellcome to try my Bullet,I run the center on concentrators and tank on the outter.
PM me for my ph#.
G.

[jokersdesign]

I sat down with a scientific lab glassblower whom has also done glass art since the 70's his opinion was "Carlisle's are great! GTT's are overpriced and found them to be flawed in design for the user not to mention the "touchy head syndrome" said nothing about Nortel or the Knight bullet/carlisle repro
.....when he looked at my H.A's he immedietly produced an antique model with brass head and fittings with the one knob adjustment.


Tell me more about GTT's flawed in design and the ""touchy head syndrome"?

You can pm if you want.

I never tried a HA, but was almost closed to trading for a 50mm once. I like the idea of a 1 knob telescoping flame.

Robert

[ChrisCamac]

I would wait to buy. Carlisle is coming out with another torch soon. That's all I can say and I am not associated with them..! But you may want to see it first! Hmmm, I wonder if it will be at the Gathering??!!

The HellCat is the new torch that Paula is mentioning. We did have it at the open torch at the Gathering. As most of my experience is with Boro, I can say that it has a very powerful flame that pours on a ton of heat with a great atmosphere for color work. Neutral, Reducing, and Oxidizing are all easy to get with very little effort.

The centerfire is the same as a Mini CC, so if you know that torch, the HellCat will be very easy to work with as only the addition of the outerfire will be new to you.

As for soft glass, we did have Brad Pearson come and work with the torch quite a bit. He brought turquoise, black and white in morretti to test the torch. His findings were that the torch ran cool in the body the whole time, he made a large over 2" diameter marble in very short order, found more heat than he expected (even burning through a stainless steel punti by accident), but the nicest part is even with all that heat, the white and black did not bleed into each other and the turquoise stayed true with no reduction or pitting.

Hope that helps. The torch is similar to the Cuda and the Bullet Burner in size , but everyone that has tried the HellCat and uses either the Cuda or the Bullet has told me that they did prefer the HellCat's soft flame as compared to other models.

Price wise, the HellCat has an MSRP of $845, which I think is a little more than the Bullet and a little less than the Cuda.

[kbinkster]

William, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Of course, I find it rather interesting that you would wait over a year to express it (this thread was well over a year old when you resurrected it). But, at any rate, your opinion is your opinion and differing views are always enlightening.

However, I do take exception to some of what you are saying, especially your characterization of the GTT torches and the claims that you are making regarding the Herbert Arnolds.

I have worked one every Carlisle,GTT (except phantom) Nortel,Knight whatevers (same as carlisle) and Herbert Arnold Zenit burners.......Carlisle is a great entry level torch for the money and for what it does. GTT's are (to me ) cute torches that have dinky little knobs.....and the bigger the torch gets ~add more knobs sounds like a great idea untill you put glass in your hands and need to adjust 5 or 6 of them.
Cute torches? Dinky little knobs? While the GTTs are certainly attractive (their sleek design has a very important purpose, btw), they are hardly what I would call “cute” and their knobs are not “dinky.” “Cute” implies that something is not worthy of being taken seriously. GTTs are serious torches. The term “dinky” not only infers diminutive size, but also implies “low quality” or “fragility.” GTT knobs most certainly are not fragile or of low quality! GTT knobs and their valves are the most precise in the industry. They are also the best quality I have ever seen or used (and I have used and own torches from several different manufacturers, so I am basing my opinion on observable fact).

While you may not personally care for a torch with sleek, yet purposeful, design and smaller sized knobs (and that is certainly your prerogative!), there are many other people who prefer them to clunky, imprecise, inefficient “heat sinks.”

As for the number of valves, there is purpose behind that, too. The valves allow for the user to adjust the torch to whatever flame size and flame chemistry they want. Naturally, the more valves there are, the better you can dial in the flame you want. However, most of the guys I know who use the bigger torches with lots of valves never have to worry about adjusting them while their hands are full – they use foot pedals! They simply preset the flame to whatever characteristics they want and use a foot pedal to kick it on or off.

Interesting side note: GTT was the first torch manufacturer to offer the four post option on their torches. This was expressly for the purpose of using a foot pedal. Later, the separate feeds proved to be very useful for running the fires from separate fuel or oxygen sources (e.g. oxygen concentrator for the innerfire and tanked for the outerfire).

Going back to the number of valves... I think that I should point out that HAs have many, many valves. They are, however, not intended for the user to adjust and the user should never attempt to adjust them, lest they be prepared to send the torch overseas to be recalibrated. To get around this, many people incorporate the use of in-line regulators to control the amount of gas that gets to the torch in order to adjust the flame to a setting other than the factory pre-set for the torch. The HA is pretty much a one-trick pony without the use of cumbersome in-line regulators.

I fail to see how having to adjust in-line regulators while your hands are full is any easier than adjusting some knobs, much less simply kicking on a foot pedal (which does not require a free hand).

Nortel works great for what they are an I tried one out similar to the CC before they had been released and for the money you cannot knock that!

After I purchase my 40mm H.A Zenit burner I decided to get the 50mm and the 65mm to add to my arsenal of equipment. ~The are noiseless, efficiant, precise, and in my opinion indestructible in design and simple to adjust, ergonomically correct....however they are not easy for some people to understand and why that is I don't know or really want to.

I’m sorry, but that whole statement is just downright misleading.

HAs are NOT efficient. As an example, an 18mm GTT Phantom uses between 35 and 40 cubic feet of oxygen per hour for its maximum full blast flame setting. Due to the Phantom’s triple mix design, it puts out more heat than a 40mm HA. According to the manufacturer, the HA 40mm burner uses 3.5 cubic meters of oxygen per hour for its maximum flame (which, again, is not as hot as the Phantom’s). That is 123.55 cubic feet of oxygen per hour! That means that the HA 40 uses 3 to 3.5 times the amount of oxygen as a Phantom for a flame that is not even as hot. How is that efficient?

You claim that they are noiseless. HAs are hardly noiseless. How can you say that they are quiet to operate when they require an air compressor to run them?

You claim that they are precise. Please define what you mean by “precise.” Would that precision be attainable without the use of in-line regulators if it were not dialed in for a tight flame at the factory? How small of a detail flame is possible on a larger HA? I doubt that you can get as small a detail flame on a HA as you could on the centerfire of a GTT.

Indestructible in design? I had the opportunity to check out a little Arni. I was shocked at the fragile external plumbing. I have not examined a larger one to see if they are plumbed the exact same way, but if so, then I would hardly consider them indestructible. Yes, the bulky heat shield around the barrel makes the torch look tough, but it does not make the torch indestructible.

External construction aside, they are still as vulnerable to damage as any other torch out there. They carbon heavily and you had better hope that you don’t have to send it back in to the factory for repair. The last time I heard about a HA repair, it was around $800. That does not include the lost income from the downtime (it takes a very long time and costs quite a bit to send a torch to Germany to get repaired, btw).

Ease of use... Yes, a single knob control sounds very appealing.... until you realize that you are limited to the flame characteristics pre-set by the manufacturer. When you add in-line regulators to further adjust the flame to your own preferences, there goes that whole notion of simplicity. And again, the use of foot pedals eliminates the need to adjust knobs. Oh, and how simple is a HA to operate if you deviate from the specific pressure settings prescribed for each torch (like if you set it up in a studio other than your own)?

You mention that you feel they are ergonomically correct. The whole reason for ergonomic design is the comfort of the worker – so they don’t injure themselves unnecessarily. The comfort of your whole body should be taken into consideration. For starters, how about the heat generated by the torch body itself? Are you able to steady you hands on the torch for detail work? How close in to the face can you get when working a small flame? And, how about the comfort of your eyes? HAs have more candle glare than other torch out there. That candle glare is very uncomfortable for lots of people. They report that they see spots after working on a HA and often have headaches afterwards. How good is having a well rested wrist (that is, if you only make crude adjustments using the single knob control and forego any fine tuning) when you are suffering from torch burn, ringing ears, spots before your eyes, and a headache?

I sat down with a scientific lab glassblower whom has also done glass art since the 70's his opinion was "Carlisle's are great! GTT's are overpriced and found them to be flawed in design for the user not to mention the "touchy head syndrome" said nothing about Nortel or the Knight bullet/carlisle repro
.....when he looked at my H.A's he immedietly produced an antique model with brass head and fittings with the one knob adjustment.

I would be curious to know more about this “touchy head syndrome.” I would also like to know why he feels that they are flawed in design. I would be interested in his reasoning.

As for being overpriced, I would argue that GTT torches are not overpriced – and are in fact underpriced when you consider the amount of work and high quality materials that go into them and what you can accomplish with them. But, it is funny that he would not consider HAs or Carlisles to be overpriced – especially when you factor in how much they cost to operate (oxygen usage and an additional air compressor for a Herbie).

We never discussed prices since it doesn't really matter in scheme of things we did discuss the flame produced and that of Carlise and HA with the HA being a far hotter flame with much more refinement and more importantly
~Its simply years ahead of its time when they started production in the 50's

What would I buy? The torch the best suits my needs as well as the one that is simple to use because I want to work the glass ~not the 6-10 knobs!

Well, again, you say that “6-10 knobs” (actually, the largest GTT on the market only has 9) as if you have to use all of the knobs and adjust them while you work. You do not mention that foot pedals eliminate the need to adjust knobs while your hands are full! You also fail to mention that without the use of in-line regulators, the single knob control of the HA is incredibly limiting. At least with 6-9 knobs – available for the user to adjust - you have the ability to dial in the right flame for the job – any job large or small, from soft glass to quartz. You do not have to depend on a factory-technician-in-another-country’s idea of the right flame for your working style. You get to make that choice for yourself!

I’m not trying to bash HAs. But, if anyone is interested in one, I would suggest that they do a lot of research to see if they are a practical choice for their application and budget. Some of your claims regarding both GTTs and HAs are a little exaggerated if not untrue.

[ChrisCamac]

"Kbinkster referring to a statement by NorskiGlass"
I find it rather interesting that you would wait over a year to express it (this thread was well over a year old when you resurrected it).

Wow. I didn't even see the 2006 instead of the 2007. Man this thread is old. I don't know if William made the same mistake I did, but I was just looking at the month and day :) Paula may still have been referring to the HellCat, as it has been in development for quite some time. Sorry for the confusion.

Interesting side note: GTT was the first torch manufacturer to offer the four post option on their torches. This was expressly for the purpose of using a foot pedal. Later, the separate feeds proved to be very useful for running the fires from separate fuel or oxygen sources (e.g. oxygen concentrator for the innerfire and tanked for the outerfire).

Actually, Carlisle has offered a four post model with the CC burner since the early 80's when we first developed the EL-2 foot pedal. I can't claim that we were the first to make a foot pedal, or that we were the first to do a 4 post model, but I do believe that would predate the GTT torches.

[kbinkster]

I had never seen or heard of a four stud torch on the art glass side until the GTTs came out and Willy, who has been to many, many scientific shops and has been building torches since the 80s had not seen one, either. Neither of us had ever seen four posts advertised as an option in Fusion magazine, either. Interesting.

[jokersdesign]

Yeah Kim you go girl. rip him a new behind.

Kim, that is a lot of good info. I have a desktop cnc mill that I was thinking of trading to another glass blowing for a HA 65mm.

But dam, if the 40mm uses over 120 scfh, then what would a 65mm use?

Forget that I love my GTTs

Kim have to used a big arni? That seems like a cool torch you should test.

I bet you and willy are glad to be home. Was great to meet you at the gathering. I wish we would of had more time as I would of really liked talk to and picked at willy brain more.

Robert

[Miss Kate]

GTT!

Miss Kate

[Norskiglass]

William, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Of course, I find it rather interesting that you would wait over a year to express it (this thread was well over a year old when you resurrected it). But, at any rate, your opinion is your opinion and differing views are always enlightening.

However, I do take exception to some of what you are saying, especially your characterization of the GTT torches and the claims that you are making regarding the Herbert Arnolds.


Cute torches? Dinky little knobs? While the GTTs are certainly attractive (their sleek design has a very important purpose, btw), they are hardly what I would call “cute” and their knobs are not “dinky.” “Cute” implies that something is not worthy of being taken seriously. GTTs are serious torches. The term “dinky” not only infers diminutive size, but also implies “low quality” or “fragility.” GTT knobs most certainly are not fragile or of low quality! GTT knobs and their valves are the most precise in the industry. They are also the best quality I have ever seen or used (and I have used and own torches from several different manufacturers, so I am basing my opinion on observable fact).

While you may not personally care for a torch with sleek, yet purposeful...... blah blah ballah....,

As for the number of valves, there is purpose behind that, too. The valves allow for the user to adjust the torch to whatever flame size and flame chemistry they want. Naturally, the more valves there are, the better you can dial in the flame you want. However, most of the guys I know who use the bigger torches with lots of valves never have to worry about adjusting them while their hands are full – they use foot pedals! They simply preset the flame to whatever characteristics they want and use a foot pedal to kick it on or off. so does everyone else in the world!:biggrin:

Interesting side note: GTT was the first torch manufacturer to offer the four post option on their torches. This was expressly for the purpose of using a foot pedal. Later, the separate feeds proved to be very useful for running the fires from separate fuel or oxygen sources (e.g. oxygen concentrator for the innerfire and tanked for the outerfire).

Really!?!? Just GTT? :badgrin: ~get your facts straight.

Going back to the number of valves... I think that I should point out that HAs have many, many valves. They are, however, not intended for the user to adjust and the user should never attempt to adjust them, lest they be prepared to send the torch overseas to be recalibrated. To get around this, many people incorporate the use of in-line regulators to control the amount of gas that gets to the torch in order to adjust the flame to a setting other than the factory pre-set for the torch. The HA is pretty much a one-trick pony without the use of cumbersome in-line regulators.
You have no idea what you just said do you......have you ever worked on one? One is compressed air the other O2 the big one controls gas/O2 I guess you couldn't figure that out.

I fail to see how having to adjust in-line regulators while your hands are full is any easier than adjusting some knobs, much less simply kicking on a foot pedal (which does not require a free hand).

Why are you adjusting gauges when your hand are full?

I’m sorry, but that whole statement is just downright misleading.
~no its not.

HAs are NOT efficient. As an example, an 18mm GTT Phantom uses between 35 and 40 cubic feet of oxygen per hour for its maximum full blast flame setting. Due to the Phantom’s triple mix design, it puts out more heat than a 40mm HA. According to the manufacturer, the HA 40mm burner uses 3.5 cubic meters of oxygen per hour for its maximum flame (which, again, is not as hot as the Phantom’s). That is 123.55 cubic feet of oxygen per hour! That means that the HA 40 uses 3 to 3.5 times the amount of oxygen as a Phantom for a flame that is not even as hot. How is that efficient?
Where do you live? or do you use the metric system for fun? I do believe the GTT'S out there with the typical O2 regulator set @ 60lbs is blowing thru far more O2 than an HA set @ 20-29lbs.......see it is a fact that GTT's require you to run higher amounts of O2 for their equipment yet unable to produce a quiet fine point center fire by any means.

You claim that they are noiseless. HAs are hardly noiseless. How can you say that they are quiet to operate when they require an air compressor to run them?

You claim that they are precise. Please define what you mean by “precise.” Would that precision be attainable without the use of in-line regulators if it were not dialed in for a tight flame at the factory? How small of a detail flame is possible on a larger HA? I doubt that you can get as small a detail flame on a HA as you could on the centerfire of a GTT.

Indestructible in design? I had the opportunity to check out a little Arni. I was shocked at the fragile external plumbing. I have not examined a larger one to see if they are plumbed the exact same way, but if so, then I would hardly consider them indestructible. Yes, the bulky heat shield around the barrel makes the torch look tough, but it does not make the torch indestructible.

External construction aside, they are still as vulnerable to damage as any other torch out there. They carbon heavily and you had better hope that you don’t have to send it back in to the factory for repair. The last time I heard about a HA repair, it was around $800. That does not include the lost income from the downtime (it takes a very long time and costs quite a bit to send a torch to Germany to get repaired, btw).

Ease of use... Yes, a single knob control sounds very appealing.... until you realize that you are limited to the flame characteristics pre-set by the manufacturer. When you add in-line regulators to further adjust the flame to your own preferences, there goes that whole notion of simplicity. And again, the use of foot pedals eliminates the need to adjust knobs. Oh, and how simple is a HA to operate if you deviate from the specific pressure settings prescribed for each torch (like if you set it up in a studio other than your own)?

You mention that you feel they are ergonomically correct. The whole reason for ergonomic design is the comfort of the worker – so they don’t injure themselves unnecessarily. The comfort of your whole body should be taken into consideration. For starters, how about the heat generated by the torch body itself? Are you able to steady you hands on the torch for detail work? How close in to the face can you get when working a small flame? And, how about the comfort of your eyes? HAs have more candle glare than other torch out there. That candle glare is very uncomfortable for lots of people. They report that they see spots after working on a HA and often have headaches afterwards. How good is having a well rested wrist (that is, if you only make crude adjustments using the single knob control and forego any fine tuning) when you are suffering from torch burn, ringing ears, spots before your eyes, and a headache?
What else did you do today? any other arguments with others....or are you just bored with nothin better to do?:badgrin:


I would be curious to know more about this “touchy head syndrome.” I would also like to know why he feels that they are flawed in design. I would be interested in his reasoning. Drop some rods on the head of a GTT and call me and let me know how it works out for you!

As for being overpriced, I would argue that GTT torches are not overpriced – and are in fact underpriced when you consider the amount of work and high quality materials that go into them and what you can accomplish with them. But, it is funny that he would not consider HAs or Carlisles to be overpriced – especially when you factor in how much they cost to operate (oxygen usage and an additional air compressor for a Herbie). Then mail them as much money as you want!



Well, again, you say that “6-10 knobs” (actually, the largest GTT on the market only has 9) as if you have to use all of the knobs and adjust them while you work. You do not mention that foot pedals eliminate the need to adjust knobs while your hands are full! You also fail to mention that without the use of in-line regulators, the single knob control of the HA is incredibly limiting. At least with 6-9 knobs – available for the user to adjust - you have the ability to dial in the right flame for the job – any job large or small, from soft glass to quartz. You do not have to depend on a factory-technician-in-another-country’s idea of the right flame for your working style. You get to make that choice for yourself!

I’m not trying to bash HAs. But, if anyone is interested in one, I would suggest that they do a lot of research to see if they are a practical choice for their application and budget. Some of your claims regarding both GTTs and HAs are a little exaggerated if not untrue.

It would of been easier for you to write a book and send it to me=D> ~now as for me "resurrecting" this thread.....someone else did that.

Attack my opinion on GTT's all you want:fnwl: I think they are overpriced and as far as the "too many knobs" I am well aware of why they put them there and what the do thank you very much.

Now for the noise level on an HA whoever you came upon working on one to find it "far" from noiseless should look into adjusting it properly....They do not require an air compressor to run......that is an assumption YOU made. ~That option is for people who know better and what to do with it.

Have a nice day!

~I know I will cause I just bought another 40mm Zenit=D>

[Norskiglass]

Wow. I didn't even see the 2006 instead of the 2007. Man this thread is old. I don't know if William made the same mistake I did, but I was just looking at the month and day :) Paula may still have been referring to the HellCat, as it has been in development for quite some time. Sorry for the confusion.



Actually, Carlisle has offered a four post model with the CC burner since the early 80's when we first developed the EL-2 foot pedal. I can't claim that we were the first to make a foot pedal, or that we were the first to do a 4 post model, but I do believe that would predate the GTT torches.

I have worked on your equipment for well over a decade and recommend them to anyone purchasing equipment.....in fact everyone of the previous 700+ students worked on them and more than likely bought one.

.....I really got "someones" panties up in a bunch on giving my 2 cents:eek:

~the "me first" attitude is a joke when it comes to the 4 post and foot pedals.

~W~

[kbinkster]

Well, just so you know, my panties are not up in a bunch. I thought I made it clear that I find differing opinions enlightening.

As for the four-post thing, I should have qualified that statement with something like "as far as I have ever seen or known about," or "to the best of my knowledge" or something like that. But, it was just a side note and hardly a main point in my post, afterall.

You are welcome to give your two cents any time you like. But, when you try to pass a wooden nickel, don't be surprised to get called on it.

[hagstromartglass]

nationals are the only torch any glass artists should use ever...

[Norskiglass]

Well, just so you know, my panties are not up in a bunch. I thought I made it clear that I find differing opinions enlightening.

As for the four-post thing, I should have qualified that statement with something like "as far as I have ever seen or known about," or "to the best of my knowledge" or something like that. But, it was just a side note and hardly a main point in my post, afterall.

You are welcome to give your two cents any time you like. But, when you try to pass a wooden nickel, don't be surprised to get called on it.

Wooden nickels? do you even work on a torch? or just sell them?

[kbinkster]

Wooden nickels? do you even work on a torch? or just sell them?
So, you can't address any of the numerous points I raised in my previous post so you resort to picking on me? That's telling.

I recently started selling torches. That is no secret. I am married to the President of GTT. That is no secret, either. But, before I ever sold a torch (or any other piece of lampworking equipment) and before I ever met my husband, I was a lampworker.

[jokersdesign]

Wooden nickels? do you even work on a torch? or just sell them?

Kim was a lampworker long before she sold torches or concentrators or married to willy.

I think she meet willy at the gathering years ago.

[Norskiglass]

Kim was a lampworker long before she sold torches or concentrators or married to willy.

I think she meet willy at the gathering years ago.

No wonder she Loves GTT so much!:lol:

[PaulaD]

Um Welcome back to LE binkster...

Paula

[jokersdesign]

nationals are the only torch any glass artists should use ever...

Really nationals?

is that what you use or are you making a joke?

I'm just wondering because there are some great glass artists that only use national 3As, so when some says onlt nationals I'm not sure if they are serious of joking.

and hagstrom, your stuff is off the hook. I like your myspace video

[kbinkster]

Kim was a lampworker long before she sold torches or concentrators or married to willy.

I think she meet willy at the gathering years ago.

You are correct.

I have been working glass since 1990. I had always wanted to work in a hot shop, but never had the opportunity. In 1993 (it could have been '92?) I learned about glass beadmaking with a torch. At the time, I could not afford the equipment, but kept my eye on it and put it on my list of things to someday do. I read up on it and looked, but never tried it at that time.

In 2002, I finally purchased a HotHead torch and a kiln and began making my own beads. I sold my work and began teaching beginning bead-making classes at a local stained glass studio. It wasn't too long before I could afford to upgrade my torch. I put a lot of research into it and decided to go with a GTT Lynx. It was the best decision I had ever made. I loved my Lynx!

Anyway, my work improved and my production speed increased. I sold more beads. I also expanded my repetoire and started making small boro sculptures along with soft glass beads. I tried some marbles, but round is not really my thing. I enjoyed sculptural work and wanted to go larger with my boro. I needed a larger torch than my Lynx. I still wanted the ability to work soft glass - particularly special colors. Again, I did a lot of research. I had to. A large torch was a huge investment for me, since I was not a full-time glassworker at the time.

I found the GTT Phantom to be the best torch for my needs and my budget. I contacted GTT early in 2004 for more information and that is when I first spoke to the man who is now my husband. We later met in person at the Gathering in Portland.

So, there you have it. I have been a lampworker, as well as a believer in GTTs, long before I ever met my husband. Knowing him has given me an even greater knowledge of torches and what goes into them than I could have ever had before.

[kbinkster]

Um Welcome back to LE binkster...

Paula

Thank you, Paula!

[Norskiglass]

You are correct.

I have been working glass since 1990. I had always wanted to work in a hot shop, but never had the opportunity. In 1993 (it could have been '92?) I learned about glass beadmaking with a torch. At the time, I could not afford the equipment, but kept my eye on it and put it on my list of things to someday do. I read up on it and looked, but never tried it at that time.

In 2002, I finally purchased a HotHead torch and a kiln and began making my own beads. I sold my work and began teaching beginning bead-making classes at a local stained glass studio. It wasn't too long before I could afford to upgrade my torch. I put a lot of research into it and decided to go with a GTT Lynx. It was the best decision I had ever made. I loved my Lynx!

Anyway, my work improved and my production speed increased. I sold more beads. I also expanded my repetoire and started making small boro sculptures along with soft glass beads. I tried some marbles, but round is not really my thing. I enjoyed sculptural work and wanted to go larger with my boro. I needed a larger torch than my Lynx. I still wanted the ability to work soft glass - particularly special colors. Again, I did a lot of research. I had to. A large torch was a huge investment for me, since I was not a full-time glassworker at the time.

I found the GTT Phantom to be the best torch for my needs and my budget. I contacted GTT early in 2004 for more information and that is when I first spoke to the man who is now my husband. We later met in person at the Gathering in Portland.

So, there you have it. I have been a lampworker, as well as a believer in GTTs, long before I ever met my husband. Knowing him has given me an even greater knowledge of torches and what goes into them than I could have ever had before.

Now if you want to work on a Zenit burner I wont tell your husband;)

~Things have come along way since '91 in the lampworking realm haven't they.....I remember watching two lampworkers when I was 5 making small vases and goblet.......ode to the studio movement of the 60's

[hagstromartglass]

joking and thank you

[kbinkster]

No wonder she Loves GTT so much!:lol:

No wonder you don't! :lol:

quote taken from a GLDG thread http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?p=219188#post219188
I plan to purchase several more of the Zenit burners and hand torches for the studio as well as the bead torches they make.

I approached GTT with a pricing inquiry before I made this decision and their reply was flat out full retail,where as all other manufactures are happy to extend discounts for instructors and teaching facilities. GTT just lost out on thousands of dollars from myself and to be honest ~I rather give H.A an additional 20% for their equipment.

[jokersdesign]

Oh SNAP !!!

[Norskiglass]

No wonder you don't! :lol:

quote taken from a GLDG thread http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthread.php?p=219188#post219188

Just as I stated on the GLDG you stand to prosper and profit from the endorsement and sales of GTT's which makes your opinion bias....yet I stated my personal experience and when I give my personal opinion it pertains to the operation of the equipment not for my pocketbook or profit hence the fact I'm not married to the man who makes GTT's let alone deal equipment.

[kbinkster]

Yeah Kim you go girl. rip him a new behind.

Kim, that is a lot of good info. I have a desktop cnc mill that I was thinking of trading to another glass blowing for a HA 65mm.

But dam, if the 40mm uses over 120 scfh, then what would a 65mm use?

Forget that I love my GTTs

Kim have to used a big arni? That seems like a cool torch you should test.

I bet you and willy are glad to be home. Was great to meet you at the gathering. I wish we would of had more time as I would of really liked talk to and picked at willy brain more.

Robert

I missed sevedral posts, and this was one of them!

It was great to meet you and your family, too, Robert!

To answer your question about the 65, according to HA, it uses 4.7 cubic meters of oxygen per hour. That translates to 165.91 cubic feet per hour.

Something that William does not understand is pressure and volume. There are torches that require large amounts of volume, but because they do not have many internal restrictions, that volume can be more free-flowing, hence the lower pressure requirement. If a torch is built with more internal restrictions, like the triple mix torches with the tiny injector tubes inside, it will need a higher pressure to push through whatever volume of gas it needs.

Sometimes, higher pressures are used to eliminate flame fluctuations (surges and drops) when switching from innerfire operation to inner and outer fire operation. On the three stage torches, like the Delta Mag, the surge or drop can be very noticeable. That is why you may need to run 100 psi on the oxygen to keep the transition from going inner-to-outer-to outer outer smooth, even though the torch is only consuming at most 80-85 cubic feet of oxygen per hour.

[kbinkster]

Just as I stated on the GLDG you stand to prosper and profit from the endorsement and sales of GTT's which makes your opinion bias....yet I stated my personal experience and when I give my personal opinion it pertains to the operation of the equipment not for my pocketbook or profit hence the fact I'm not married to the man who makes GTT's let alone deal equipment.

And just as I stated on the GLDG, if you:

sell torches to your students
earn a commission on torches sold to your students
or, receive a large discount on outfitting your studio with the understanding that you will be influencing their buying decisions or sending them over to buy torches

you would stand to profit.

William, I did not bash you for your opinion. I did, however, call you on your false claims. You can have whatever opinion you want. It does not have to agree with mine! When you present something as factual that is actually false, or are trying to mislead anyone, you cross a line and you should not cry "foul" when you get called out.

Like I said before, I will say it again, I have been recommending GTTs longer than I have known Willy. So, you might as well quit playing that card. My opinion is my opinion - always has been and always will be.

[PaulaD]

Well I hope the GTT boys (and gals!) continue to prosper! They make a great torch and are wonderful to work with!! And Mrs. Willy spends a lot of time on the forums anwering technical questions and helping people. Personally I wouldn't have been able to go to a bigger torch if it wasn't for the GTT torches because the other torches throw too much heat in my face screwing up my eyes. I hope more mid age chics with dry eye find out about these torches. Paula

[Norskiglass]

And just as I stated on the GLDG, if you:

sell torches to your students
earn a commission on torches sold to your students
or, receive a large discount on outfitting your studio with the understanding that you will be influencing their buying decisions or sending them over to buy torches

you would stand to profit.

You are dead wrong and obviously doling out assumptions.

William, I did not bash you for your opinion. I did, however, call you on your false claims. You can have whatever opinion you want. It does not have to agree with mine! When you present something as factual that is actually false, or are trying to mislead anyone, you cross a line and you should not cry "foul" when you get called out. Call me out all day long if you like ~no hard feelings you have written PAGES of this ongoing "discussion" and it has been interesting getting to know you. My opinion is my opinion....I don't care for GTT's no matter how you angle things to me or others as "selling points"

Like I said before, I will say it again, I have been recommending GTTs longer than I have known Willy. So, you might as well quit playing that card. My opinion is my opinion - always has been and always will be. Oh its not a card....its a fact you do and will profit from the sales of GTT as I never will profit from equipment sales period ~I have no intentions on it now or in the future. ~I work with glass and operate various torches thank you.

I Enjoy Working On A Herbert Arnold!! so leave me alone thanks!




*sigh*

[ChrisCamac]

Sometimes, higher pressures are used to eliminate flame fluctuations (surges and drops) when switching from innerfire operation to inner and outer fire operation. On the three stage torches, like the Delta Mag, the surge or drop can be very noticeable. That is why you may need to run 100 psi on the oxygen to keep the transition from going inner-to-outer-to outer outer smooth, even though the torch is only consuming at most 80-85 cubic feet of oxygen per hour.

I was not aware that you recommended such a high PSI on that torch, although I do understand why you are based on the description above. Quick question. Why not just suggest to the user that they get a 9 stud (or is that 6 stud) model and have them use inline regulators that are separately set and adjusted for each of the zones (inner, inner-outer, and outer)? Using the line regulators would eliminate fluctuation between these zones without requiring such a high pressure setup.

I find that with a really high pressure setup like that, although you may take care of fluctuation issues, you tend to have a more forceful flame than you may want. That's no fault of the torch, but makes the flame rather harsh in the end.

Of course, asking the operator to purchase additional equipment is not always the best situation, especially if money is a major issue. However, I would think the end result would be worth it.

[jokersdesign]

What is an inline regulator and where do you get them, link?

On my delta mag I did have 6 posts and the first set of posts where running off one set of regulators connected to a 3 way manifold at the tanks with the pressure set to 15 PSI.

The second set of posts where running off a second set of regulators connected to a 3 way manifold at the tank with the pressure set to 35 PSI.

The third set of posts where running off a third set of regulators connected to a 3 way manifold at the tank with the pressure set to 50 PSI.

That allowed me to adjust the pressure running to the each ring of the torch. That allowed me to avoid have to forceful or to touchy of a flame on any of the 3 flames.

[kbinkster]

My mistake about 100 psi on a Mag (I think 100 psi was what Mike Plane was running his Python on). It does not need to be that high.

The Delta Mag can run on like 40-50 psi (when you're feeding the whole torch from a single source) - ask Wally if you want to know for sure.

At any rate, you can have very high pressures and still be able to dial in a soft flame. You have the pressure there available to you if you want to dial in a forceful flame, but you can still dial in a soft flame. I know that there are a lot of guys (boro workers, especially) who like to run higher pressures than recommended so they can have a very forceful flame when they want it.

Below are some pictures (sorry for the blurriness) of a hand torch being run on high pressures and low pressures. Notice that you can still get the same small, soft flame regardless of the pressure setting. The higher pressure did not make the flame more forceful. That forceful flame is available, but not there unless dialed in.
26117

Robert, in-line pressure regulators should be available at your local welding shop.

[kbinkster]

Well I hope the GTT boys (and gals!) continue to prosper! They make a great torch and are wonderful to work with!! And Mrs. Willy spends a lot of time on the forums anwering technical questions and helping people. Personally I wouldn't have been able to go to a bigger torch if it wasn't for the GTT torches because the other torches throw too much heat in my face screwing up my eyes. I hope more mid age chics with dry eye find out about these torches. Paula
Thanks, Paula!

[ChrisCamac]

What is an inline regulator and where do you get them, link?

On my delta mag I did have 6 posts and the first set of posts where running off one set of regulators connected to a 3 way manifold at the tanks with the pressure set to 15 PSI.

The second set of posts where running off a second set of regulators connected to a 3 way manifold at the tank with the pressure set to 35 PSI.

The third set of posts where running off a third set of regulators connected to a 3 way manifold at the tank with the pressure set to 50 PSI.

That allowed me to adjust the pressure running to the each ring of the torch. That allowed me to avoid have to forceful or to touchy of a flame on any of the 3 flames.

The way you are describing your setup is very similar to what I was mentioning. Having separate regulators is the key to ensuring that changes on one ring does not affect the others.

As for inline regulators, that is just a term for a regulator that is designed not to go onto a tank, and usually deals with much lower pressures than a tank. The idea behind the inline regulator is that you could have a main set of tank regs set pretty high (100 PSI or so) then have these smaller inline regulators setup right at your bench. Some of the benefits are listed below:

- Because you are going through main regs and then inline regs, you are effectively using a dual regulation setup, which will always present a more consistent and even pressure than a single regulator (unless the single regulator is a dual stage, which is quite expensive). This alleviates the "breathing" effect that some experience where the flame grows and shrinks at regular intervals.

- Since the line regs are at your bench, you can adjust them as needed without having to go back to the tanks.

- Inline regs are usually much less expensive than tank regs. Quality tank regs are around $100 or more, where as quality inline regs are around $40.

[PaulaD]

Thanks Chris! You are a great help too!

Paula