High Altitude Torching

[Rose]

Hi,
I'm putting this question in the Family Room because I doubt there are a lot of us out there so I'm hoping to hit the largest audience.

I'm trying to remake beads I used to make at sea level. I'm now at about 6800 ft. in Colorado. I use a concentrator and used to use propane but now use NG.

I'm making beads with silver leaf burned off and no matter what I do they look shiny. I have changed torches, changed gases, anything I can think of to get back to the torch atmosphere I used to have. Nothing works. I think it may have to do with the output of the concentrator at this altitude.

My question: If I get another concentrator and hook the two together would that give me more oxygen? I use a Betta which is plenty hot so I really don't want a lot more heat, just oxygen. The Betta has a reducing atmosphere, so I pulled out my minor to make these beads, but it didn't work, in case that crosses your mind.

I often batch anneal and sometimes this shinyness comes off when annealing but sometimes not. I'm at my whits end trying to figure out what is causing this as I really want to remake some beads I used tomake.

Any thoughts??? Thank so much!!!

Rose

[melissabeads]

Hi Rose~
I wish I new what type of atmosphere you had to help answer you question. Anyhow, this question was asked before and if I remember correctly, a few of the lampworkers with a more "scientific" backgrounds said there would be no difference working at different altitudes. I know that doesn't help your problem. Are you using the same type of glass and silver as before?

Could it be the NG?

BTW..where in CO are you? I am in Golden..Good Luck!

[Rose]

Melissa,

I'm in COS.

I went back to find my old post where I asked this before, because I forgot I'd asked. But what is different since then is today I went out and got propane and hooked it up with my Minor which is how I used to work. Same problem.

The question I'm asking today is different, though. I'm wanting to know if 2 concentrators give 2 times as much oxygen. Since I think I need more oxygen. This is the ONLY thing I can figure out that might be the problem.

Same glass, same silver and all that.....

Since there is less oxygen at a higher altitude I'm wondering.....

Rose

[drnihili]

Two concentrators hooked up properly should give roughly twice the oxygen.

You might also check to make sure your current concentrator is operatiing properly. Altitude and age can both make a difference in the performance of the concentrator. Does your concentrator have a purity sensor on it? I would have your current concentrator checked out before buying a second.

[kbinkster]

Rose, I just PMed you. I'm at the same altitude and run a concentrator.

[bolimasa]

Just curious,where in CO are you. At 6800 feet I'd quess it's somplace nice!

[MikeAurelius]

2 concentrators will not give twice the oxygen!!

You are dealing with partial pressures of oxygen - no matter how many concentrators you gang up, they will all generate the same amount of oxygen, and putting them together will only give you more volume with the same percentage of oxygen.

You are running about 10-17% less oxygen at that altitude, so you will have to cut your propane back by that amount in order to balance it out, or go to tanked oxygen.

[drnihili]

Mike's post is right and despite appearances doesn't really say the opposite of mine. ;)

Hooking up two 5 lpm concentrators will give you about 10lpm, but it won't improve the purity. "Twice as much" could be taken either way.

[Rose]

Bolimasa,
I'm at the northern tip of Colordao Springs. It's wonderful, beautiful and more. After living in Calif. it seems wide open and the air clear. I LOVE it here and have dreamed of coming back to live since I was 13 yo and passing thru.

Mike,
Thanks for the info. I thought I remembered something about the pressure and volume and not doubling, and all that. Before I went the route of getting another concentrator I needed to verify that.

This must be an issue with my concentrator. It seems to be working fine and it's just with certain beads I run into issues. I got so used to getting certain results and now I don't. But isn't silver that way? LOL Just when you get comfortable........

Thanks for the help everyone. I think I just need to let it go and most likely one of these days I'll stubble upon an answer:-k

Rose

[CD Lampwork]

All right, well I didn't get into the other thread because I differ to the experts. But here is our practical, not theoretical, experience. As you may or may not know we are full time RVers (we travel threwout the US). We got a M20 concentrator while we were in Texas and used it a few months so got pretty secure with flame cemistry. Then we moved to Colorado Springs (Campground was really south of COS). Our operation wouldn't work for crap! We were even giving the concentrator manufacturer a LOT of grief about it's operation. Long story short, when we went back to sea level the consy was back to normal. Altitude does effect oxygen concentrators. We had to dial our 10lpm down to 5lpm to get the purety needed. As such I think if you did get a second concentrator and dialed them both back to 2 or 3 lpm each you may be ok. Typically lower flow rate=higher purity.

[Rose]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your thoughts! Something dawned on me while reading your post. I will have to try this..... right before I moved here I found that I should turn my concentrator dial all the way up and my Minor worked so much hotter. I turned it up to 5 instead of working at 3. Ok, at that point I packed up and moved here. Didn't torch for 6 months and when I did start torching again I set the concentrator to 5. MAYBE I need to try turning it down and see what happens. Very interesting.....

Rose

[Toni Lutman]

Hi Rose,

No advice from me, but I just wanted to tell you that I'm so glad you're happy with your move, and we miss you!

[bolimasa]

Hmmm I have a terrible time with rubino. Those crappy gray spots- Argh. I torch at 5000 feet and have wondered if that has an effect. I now run two concentrators, when I got the second one I thought my rubino problems would disappear, but I still have problems. Now I wonder if I should turn them both down a little, maybe my purity would increase and I'd have fewer reduction problems? Definately worth a try! Thanks for all the input!

[ChaseDesigns]

If your rubino is getting grey, you got it too hot. Work it cooler and spend less time in the flame with it. I never had problems with it do to altitude.

[Rose]

Hey Toni! Yes, so happy to exit the bay area. Now I live in a big city compared to a small town. But we have space here and hardly any traffic. I'll bet you're busy getting ready for the Gathering! \\:D/

Ok, I turned down the concentrator and made a bead. I set it at 3 1/2 and still had the same issue. It's not that big of a deal anymore though, because they are coming out of the kiln ok. But I still want to play with these settings some more because I think this is the missing link. Next I'll try 2 1/2 and go from there.

I also think this may be why my new Betta was boiling glass even working far out in the flame. I'll have to test more........

As far as Rubino..... we only get along when used on top of a bead. Anythingmore than that it turns opaque on me. I get those silvery spots sometimes, too. I bet you could get by with using one concentrator for rubino.

Well, I have a test bead cooking now and then I will test some more. Thanks Greg and all, this is sure interesting! I will post more if I get any results that are good.

Rose

[ann_s]

I torch at 7900 feet when in Colorado and don't see any difference. One oxygen Concentrator and a minor. It sounds as though you are fuming or reducing...try turning the fuel down and keeping the oxygen at 3.5 or so. The spots on rubino happen for me when i work too hot or too close to the flame...you can get rid of them easily even after they have formed with more oxygen, less fuel. I hope I helped a little.
ann

[PhyllisK]

Rose and Melissa,
Do you know there is an active lampwork bead group in Denver? The info is at Beadcluster.org. It is a really fun and sharing bunch of friends. We are not having a meeting this month (some of us will be at the Gathering) but do get together regularly either at Glasscraft in Golden or someone's home. Check it out and hope to see you there sometime.
Phyllis Kenyon