Kugler Iris Gold and BE? Can it be done? [Archive]

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squid

2006-08-16, 6:28am

Kevan posted some beads yesterday that she made from a new glass:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30759

The pink and white one has Kugler Iris Gold stringer on it - and it is GORGEOUS!

Does anyone know if this glass can be used with BE? Is it one of the leaded glasses like the frits that you can use in small amounts?

Any feedback appreciated.

Thanks!

Sigrid

Karen Hardy

2006-08-16, 7:51am

squid

2006-08-16, 8:19am

Kugler is 96 COE and BE is 90 COE.
They are not compatable. Some people will tell you
that "in small amounts" it's ok (5%) but I disagree.

Check my responses on this thread
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30705
as to why I don't think it's a good idea
(and you can also see the fine and upstanding citizens that
disagree with me! Not everybody agrees).

I'm actually the one that started the thread to which you are referring. I understand the caveats with incompatible COEs - what I am actually trying to find out is if the Kugler Iris Gold is a leaded furnace glass that lends itself to "fudging".

Thanks for the feedback on the prior thread (and this one) . It's good to get the whole story.

Thanks

Sigrid

evilglass

2006-08-16, 9:36am

well, considering that moretti is 104....96 is closer math wise to 90 than 104, right? I'd probably try it and see what happened. Val Cox used to use bullseye exclusively, and didn't she start all the 96 frit stuff?

shawnette

2006-08-16, 9:38am

Yes, it can be done with BE. You would be using it as surface decoration and not "mixing" it.

squid

2006-08-16, 9:49am

Yes, it can be done with BE. You would be using it as surface decoration and not "mixing" it.

Thanks Shawnette - you are always a great source of information - thanks for sharing your experiences.

MaryBeth

2006-08-16, 11:04am

Yes - I have done it! I have some BE beads with Kugler gold surface dots on them around here someplace - they are going on 4 years old. They get tossed around and beat up a lot - I had them out where I could gaze upon their golden beauty but then I put them somewhere else - I guess I should dig them out again. They are still in perfect condition. The gold and French vanilla is yummy as well as with any of the ambers.

lldesigns

2006-08-16, 11:38am

Any ideas on where the iris gold can be found? It seems to be sold out everywhere.

squid

2006-08-16, 12:10pm

shawnette

2006-08-16, 12:32pm

Any ideas on where the iris gold can be found? It seems to be sold out everywhere.

www.hotglasscolor.com

squid

2006-08-16, 12:39pm

www.hotglasscolor.com

It appears there is a 1 kilo minimum...... ouch!

edited to add:

here is some on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190014222991&category=116646#ebayphotohosting

2 ounces - lot more expensive per ounce, but cheaper in the short run :)

shawnette

2006-08-16, 3:45pm

It appears there is a 1 kilo minimum...... ouch!

edited to add:

here is some on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190014222991&category=116646#ebayphotohosting

2 ounces - lot more expensive per ounce, but cheaper in the short run :)

They sell their frits in small packages, also, unlike OCR. The link to the frit jars is on the home page: http://www.hotglasscolor.com/htmlpages/fritjars.html

$5.99 for a 2oz jar of Iris Gold (K218 ).

Edited to add: I just clicked on the link you provided. Bill is awesome!! He also has a store at the Annealer, as he's trying to get away from the Ebay fees. I would recommend him as a seller any day!

evilglass

2006-08-16, 6:22pm

MaryBeth

2006-08-16, 6:37pm

also wanted to say, because i thought about this more.

What's the COE of palladium? Gold? Silver? Mica? CZs?

Those are used, who knows about 5%, and encased all the time...

things that make you go hmmmm....

Exactly! And many people encase huge hunks of copper mesh. And reduction frits have been used with Moretti for ages. (OK - at least ages in the beadmaking world.)

pam

2006-08-17, 4:27am

Can someone tell me where they are getting the information that Kugler glass is 96 coe? Have they changed their coe in the past couple of years? Kugler, Reichenbach, and all the other glassblowing glasses, except for Gaffer, have always been between 89 and 94. I'm really curious if they have changed their coe.

evilglass

2006-08-17, 5:07am

I have it from inferring it, I think....I use reichenback, not kugler, though

pam

2006-08-17, 6:31am

Okay, what I have learned this morning.

From the Kugler website: Coefficient of expansion calculated:
93 ± 2 x 10-7

From the Reichenbach site:
Coefficient of expansion:
94 (+ /- 2) x 10-7/K

Sprucepine Batch has the following listed on their site regarding coe's of Kugler, Reichenbach, Glo Glass and Ullman, "When fused to another glass or used hot as in lampworking or furnace work (glassblowing) these colors will "fit" other glasses in a range of coefficient of expansion from 85 to 98. However, not all colors will fit the same glass. Although these colors were designed to 'fit" each other, this is not always true. A series of experimental pieces to determine "fit" is recommended before the color is selected for production use. With all high expansion or soft glasses proper annealing is necessary."

evilglass

2006-08-17, 6:52am

check this out...from warmglass.com
http://www.warmglass.com/COESummary.htm

They show the coe of gold to be 140, copper is 176, silver is 191. Didn't see palladium or mica, and I'm not going to try to find the COE of CZ's, LOL.

That's a much larger difference than even 90 to 104, and it seems to be acceptable to use those materials. I'm learning a lot with this! I can find the COE of all sorts of things in scientific notation, but I'm having difficulty finding it in the notation we're all used to.

MaryBeth

2006-08-17, 7:20am

Pam - thanks for posting that info! I was starting to wonder if I was nuts - I had seen the same information that you had posted - which makes most furnace glasses fairly close in COE to Bullseye. I didn't know where that 96 number was coming from either.

I do agree some testing needs to be done by each user in regards to different colors - this isn't paint by numbers afterall;-)

Thanks for the metals COE, evilglass! I knew they were different - but I didn't know how different.

Rachel

2006-08-17, 12:39pm

Hi. I called the hotglasscolor place and they said there is no minimum amount you have to order. They have the Kugler 218 cane in two different sizes and I ordered a half pound. Just thought I'd trhow that in.

xiola blue

2006-08-17, 1:26pm

I recall seeing in the posts yesterday that Frantz has the Kugler iris gold as stringer...I haven't checked it out but someone may want to. xiola

lavendar420

2006-08-17, 3:18pm

i use reduction frits with bullseye, i just did a ton of it yesterday, having received my mystery pack from val! i encased some to see what would happen... we'll see. since you're asking about the iris gold though, i have to ask, what about using the bulleye amber lustre? it actually *is* compatible, and lightly reduced it is very lovely.

pam

2006-08-17, 3:46pm

castaway

2006-08-18, 12:34am

Hooray, at last some of you are questioning those wild claims of a 96 COE for Kugler. I have been using it with bullseye for 20 years. I might suggest that any of you who claim to be at all professional to do your testing and don't use anything that you haven't tested and found to be OK,. If you don't and your work cracks you will look like an amateur.
B

jhana

2006-08-18, 12:52am

Are Kugler and Reichenbach Iris Gold the same glass as far as the effects you get?

pam

2006-08-18, 3:25am

Actually, over the years I have found Reichenbach to be more reactive than Kugler, but that is just my experience.

Rebekah

2006-08-18, 4:30am

Wouldn't it have more to do with the viscosity of the different glasses that you're trying to use together than their COE?

evilglass

2006-08-18, 5:02am

I don't know about what makes it work, but considering how huge the differences for gold, silver, and copper are, it's got to be something other than just COE, though I'm sure COE is a factor.

MaryBeth

2006-08-18, 11:46am

Wouldn't it have more to do with the viscosity of the different glasses that you're trying to use together than their COE?

You've got it\\:D/ That in combination with the COE determines the fit. I guess I'm going to have to try to did up that BE article - I don't know if it is on their site anymore.

jhana

2006-08-18, 11:52am

Actually, over the years I have found Reichenbach to be more reactive than Kugler, but that is just my experience.
So, the gold effect Kevan is getting with the Kugler iris gold is much the same with Reichenbach?

Karen Hardy

2006-08-20, 11:42pm

The Kugler and Reichenbach Iris Gold are compatible with BE. Glasses are determined as compatible if they are within 3 to 4 points of the coe of the base glass.
I have used Iris Gold since the mid-90's with BE, and have never had a problem.

:waving: Heya Pam!
Okay - so let me wrap my nogin around this. Wouldn't this be NOT compatable,
since the Kugler and Reichenbach Iris Gold are considered 96 and the BE is 90?
This can all get so confusing, since you hear the glass gurus say one thing and
the scientific brain surgeon geeks I speak to say something else. #-o

Rebekah

2006-08-21, 2:41am

From what I understand, Reichenbach and Kugler are more like 92-94. This is from the Warm Glass forum, though and they have a whole other system for determining compatability.

pam

2006-08-21, 4:54am

Hi Karen, Read below, copied from an earlier post in this thread.

From the Kugler website: Coefficient of expansion calculated:
93 ± 2 x 10-7

From the Reichenbach site:
Coefficient of expansion:
94 (+ /- 2) x 10-7/K

Sprucepine Batch has the following listed on their site regarding coe's of Kugler, Reichenbach, Glo Glass and Ullman, "When fused to another glass or used hot as in lampworking or furnace work (glassblowing) these colors will "fit" other glasses in a range of coefficient of expansion from 85 to 98. However, not all colors will fit the same glass. Although these colors were designed to 'fit" each other, this is not always true. A series of experimental pieces to determine "fit" is recommended before the color is selected for production use. With all high expansion or soft glasses proper annealing is necessary."

Someone is either putting out false information, or....people are reading it and not understanding. From what I have read on various websites people are stating, "this glass is compatible with 96 coe glass". And a lot of people are taking that to mean it is 96 coe, when it's not true. I believe Gaffer glass is 96 coe, but the rest of the furnace glasses are in the 92-94 range. This, of course, excludes the Kugler cane that Arrow Springs is having made for them that is 104.

Rebekah

2006-08-21, 4:57am

WOOHOOOOOO!

Ya'll! I had something right! The end is nigh. Say your prayers and get right with Jesus (or whoever). I answered something correctly in the tech forum.

Holy hell.

MaryBeth

2006-08-21, 3:51pm

Here is the Bullseye Tech Notes article on compatability:

http://www.bullseyeglass.com/pdfs/technotes_tipsheets/TechNotes_03.pdf

Interesting reading! Especially the last sentence.

pam

2006-08-21, 4:02pm

I think that is a fantastic article and one of the most important things it stresses is that each glass combination should be tested. We as beadmakers take for granted compatibility when we are using close coe's, however that is only a place to begin and not the whole story. If cracking occurs, then we just say well, it was incompatible, instead of really delving into the whats and whys.

Thanks, Mary Beth, for linking that article. I hadn't read it in a while and it was good to read it again.