Get an oxygen propane torch and ditch the hothead?

[mandyjw]

I am having sooo many problems with my hothead torch. I am using it with a bulk MAPP tank and the hose needs to be drained at least once a day, or it spits fireballs all over my table. I turn the torch on and it bursts into a huge scary yellow/orange flame. When its not doing that the flame fluctuates so bad it makes me swear. That also causes sooty stuff to get in my glass. There is another type of gas that can be used with a hothead, but will I have the same problems with that? Should I just spend the money for a minor or a similar torch? I make smaller beads and I suppose I like the hothead except for those things, but I've never had the opportunity to try anything else. I'm wondering if I can get the same detail with a larger torch. I'd also love to get rid of the extra fumes and the noise? Any thoughts or suggestions? I really don't want to spend the money right now... but its probably inevitable anyway. Thanks.

Mandy

[dogsrlove]

Personally speaking, I splurged on a MiniCC/Oxycon setup just over a year ago (formally on a HH/bulk Mapp) and haven't looked back. Sure that initial outpouring of $$$ was kind of scary, but- I'M SO GLAD I DID IT! Faster, quieter, hotter, cleaner- I'm making beads that I could never do on a HH. Now that being said, there are MANY beadmakers out there (Holly Cooper performs miracles) that do just fine on their HH. I would suggest- if you have a chance, try someones Minor/Bobcat/Mini CC, see what you think. . .

Bead On!
Vanessa

[adovbs]

I am having sooo many problems with my hothead torch. I am using it with a bulk MAPP tank and the hose needs to be drained at least once a day, or it spits fireballs all over my table.

That's not normal, Mandy. You may need someone with more experience with HHs to come have a look at your setup and how you're using it. Your fuel may be an issue, too. But that sort of problem simply isn't normal. Something is out of whack.

T

[kbinkster]

Are you tipping your bulk tank over, a lot?

[Mary Pat C]

I have to agree with Vanessa. I lasted only about a month with the HH before going to a MiniCC/Oxy Tank--Quieter, more precise flame, easy to change the angle of the torch to suit your work.

Mary Pat

[mandyjw]

It could be the supplier... thats the only thing I can think of. My Dad works with propane a lot at his job and is trained and licensed so everything is done right. He says there is something wrong with one of the tanks and the valve dosen't shut off all the way. Scary. Its just been such a frusteration. The last tank I had was not as bad, and got worse the more MAPP I used out of it. He said it was heavy ends, its yellowish oily stuff. This set up just dosen't seem safe and I probably should just get rids of it.
I still have to use up the remaining gas first. ugh.

[IF-Designs]

I really enjoy and have been extremely happy with the minor for soft glass and I use oxy cons with it. I think that you would be happy with the flame characterists of the minor coupled with an oxy concentrator or 2. I would Keep an eye out for a good price on a used minor and look around your town for a respritory care place and see if they are getting rid of any retired oxy con units and see if they will let you have one or 2 sometimes they will...if not look around to see if you can find someone in your area selling one in the paper cheap....other wise look on ebay or try one of the sellers here maybe they can set you up on a payment plan or something.

[Dale M.]

I am having sooo many problems with my hothead torch. I am using it with a bulk MAPP tank and the hose needs to be drained at least once a day, or it spits fireballs all over my table. I turn the torch on and it bursts into a huge scary yellow/orange flame. When its not doing that the flame fluctuates so bad it makes me swear. That also causes sooty stuff to get in my glass. There is another type of gas that can be used with a hothead, but will I have the same problems with that? Should I just spend the money for a minor or a similar torch? I make smaller beads and I suppose I like the hothead except for those things, but I've never had the opportunity to try anything else. I'm wondering if I can get the same detail with a larger torch. I'd also love to get rid of the extra fumes and the noise? Any thoughts or suggestions? I really don't want to spend the money right now... but its probably inevitable anyway. Thanks.

Mandy


Actually your problem is not the bulk fuel...MAPP is a very clean fuel.. In fact there is not much of anything in any of the popular fuels (propane, MAPP, propylene) to cause the oily "fireball" problem. And the problem is not the torch head...

Your problem is probably the hose.... It's shedding some of the oils used in the hose body that is included in the physical construction to keep it soft and pliable... IF you are having daily problems, get different brand hose from different supplier if you want to stay on hothead.

Dale

[Emily]

That sounds like a safety hazard. If it's shooting fireballs, and you think the problem is with the tank, you shouldn't be using it. Do you swap out tanks, or just have the same one refilled each time? If you swap out tanks, I'd say you should trade this sick puppy in for a new one (maybe at a different supplier), half-empty or not.

An oxy-propane torch should make it easier to get fine detail on your beads, not harder, so that shouldn't be a concern for you, but it is a big expense.

[bhhco]

That's not normal, Mandy. You may need someone with more experience with HHs to come have a look at your setup and how you're using it. Your fuel may be an issue, too. But that sort of problem simply isn't normal. Something is out of whack.

T

I have to disagree. Those phenomena are reported quite often. They are either reported here and on WC, and easily found repeated in a search. However the "fix" is not found.

Whether or not one experiences the phenomena depends on a lot of factors such as how frequently it is used (every day?), how long it used (8 hours a day?), how hard it is used (big flame/small?), the type of fuel (propane, enhanced propane, propylene?), the type/size of tank (1#, 20# BB#, bigger?), the ambient temperature and season, the length and type of hose used, the connectors, and if a regulator is used.

It is a very complex problem, and whether or not it occurs to someone depends upon the exact combination of things stated above.

The bottom line is this. When you put a hose between a one-gas torch and the fuel, you create an entirely new fuel supply system. And there are presently some significant design weaknesses in that system.

Me

[dsjohnson]

I am on the same set up, and found that the ambient temperature had a lot to do with my problems. My tank is outside, and is on the west side of my house. I can torch with no problems in the morning, this would be before the sun hits the tank (which I am trying to insulate now, I really need to construct something, but I haven't gotten around to it yet). But I cannot use the torch after the tank has been in the sun (oh by the way, did I mention that I live in Texas where it has been over 100 degrees more days than I can count this summer!? Oh, and without rain, which means no cloud cover) without it becoming an intermittant fire-breathing dragon.

Donna

[elle]

I used a HotHead for 5 years, until I made switch to the Minor burner. This fireball/goo thing never happened to me. But here's the thing, I never used a bulk fuel tank, I only used the 1# yellow MAPP cannisters. I spent about $20 a month on those things, even when making (small) beads every day. I spend way more than that on oxygen and propane now that I have the Minor, but it's worth it. Try switching to the 1# MAPP cannisters to see if it helps, or just switch to the oxygen/propane set-up. Either one is probably more safe than fireballs on your work table.

Sarah

[bhhco]

I am on the same set up, and found that the ambient temperature had a lot to do with my problems. My tank is outside, and is on the west side of my house. I can torch with no problems in the morning, this would be before the sun hits the tank (which I am trying to insulate now, I really need to construct something, but I haven't gotten around to it yet). But I cannot use the torch after the tank has been in the sun (oh by the way, did I mention that I live in Texas where it has been over 100 degrees more days than I can count this summer!? Oh, and without rain, which means no cloud cover) without it becoming an intermittant fire-breathing dragon.

Donna

Tank pressure increases as the tank temperature increases. The tank temperaure increases due to the ambient air temperature increase and the direct solar radiation.

It is possible for your tank pressure to be 130 psig in the morning and over 200 psig in the afternoon. I've have seen tank pressures as high as 270 psig on propylene bulk.

The most precise method to control these pressure variations (both up and down) is a regulator, settable between 60 to 120 psig, and set on the specific pressure that produces the flame you like best.

In a recent flame-pressure test, I found the one-gas torch flame was quite stable and "hot" at only 60 psig, and the head flow appeared to max out at 90-100 psig.

This matched pressure test readings at various intervals between a propane tank and the torch, which showed a pressure down step from 125 at tank, to 115 in hose, to 100 at torch valve entry. (Note to two-gas users... there are a lot of restriction components in the commonly used one-gas fuel hose that are not in the two-gas system). This indicated the post-2004 model one-gas torches can and do work nominally at less than 100 psig pressure. But the test has not been independently verified. Nor have I had time to repeat the test.

The regulator may also eliminate a host of other one-gas torch problems.

Me

[kbinkster]

Actually your problem is not the bulk fuel...MAPP is a very clean fuel.. In fact there is not much of anything in any of the popular fuels (propane, MAPP, propylene) to cause the oily "fireball" problem. And the problem is not the torch head...

Your problem is probably the hose.... It's shedding some of the oils used in the hose body that is included in the physical construction to keep it soft and pliable... IF you are having daily problems, get different brand hose from different supplier if you want to stay on hothead.

Dale
Well, then, Dale, why don't you try this:

While the torch is running, go over and flip the propane tank on its side. Observe the torch.

Get back to us with your findings.

And about MAPP being a clean fuel... MAPP is not a clean fuel. It has acetylene in it. Acetylene is NOT clean. It will carbon up torches like nobody's business. It is the recommended fuel (in one pound cannisters) for the HH because it burns hotter than straight propane - NOT because it is clean fuel.

But regardless of fuel, the issue of shooting fireballs every day unless the hose is drained is not normal. I have seen the reports of fireballs and such, but I have not seen any other reports of it happening so frequently with the same set-up.

Maybe Mandy's dad is right and there is a defect with the tank causing something to come up through the hose. I know that when Willy had a Python at a show and Marcel Braun was running it, someone went over and turned the propane tank on its side. This guy had heard that you could get "more out of it" by laying it on it's side. Well, they got more out of it, alright. The torch began shooting out yellow fire like a flame thrower until Willy ran over and uprighted the tank. It went from the flamethrower flame back to a blue flame, but was still shooting out fireballs like a Roman candle for a while until the stuff cleared out of the line. There were a couple of hundred witnesses to this "event."

[Lisi]

I was using the HH for 18 months and then the last two years, Mini CC (got damaged, still needs repairs), and Bobcat. My advice to you is: Sure, upgrade, but don't ditch the HH.

Why? Because I found that there are several things that I can't do on the Bobcat, it gets too dang hot. Here's what I love the HH for, and remember, this is just particular to how I work:

Bullseye opal pinks stay pink and don't wash out and burn

Silvered ivory doesn't spread out as much

It doesn't "yellow out" my odd "pinky coral", it stays a pinky color, no orangey

I don't fry my dichroic

I don't fry my pixie dust

Albaster and opalino pinks stay pink

These are many of the reasons I still have my HH ready to go, it's hooked up to a 30lb MAPP tank that I own. BTW - I HAVE tried turning down the flame on the Bobcat and worked wayyy out there where it's cooler, and it still does not work for me on the above problems.

Here's my yummy color that I get with BE opal salmon and a Reichenbach fucshia frit using the HH. They turn out SO ugly when I use the Bobcat. :(

[Bunyip]

I was going to suggest switching to the small yellow MAPP Gas canisters as well. I never had a problem like this and I worked on a HH daily for over a year on the small yellow cylinders. It will help to isolate the problem, at very least, and possibly solve it as well (at least in the short term).

These are many of the reasons I still have my HH ready to go, it's hooked up to a 30lb MAPP tank that I own. BTW - I HAVE tried turning down the flame on the Bobcat and worked wayyy out there where it's cooler, and it still does not work for me on the above problems.

Just a thought for you: A hothead has a slightly reducing flame. Have you tried adjusting the oxygen in your Bobcat's flame? It's definately worth a try if not. I recently switched from a HH to a minor, so I'm very interested in people's comparative experiences, and how they work around the differences. Please post your results, if any!

[luvhotglass]

I've had my HH for a really loooooong time. I love it! I keep it as a back up (like when your studio floods out, but that's another story) or when I need to make some quick spacers. Anyway,I had a similar problem last year, but I was using the canisters. My husband had to take the HH apart and clean it. (He's an hvac/r guy) He said that there was a saphire or something like it in there and it was stuck and needed cleaning????? Not sure. . . .all I know is that its been working fine since then. Hope this helps:)

[Olimpia]

I understand the fireballs and I am suffering the same issues myself, so I don't think it's that unusual. Oily spatters are all over my table. I have noticed that the first batch of torching works out fine. The second batch after pausing about half an hour it starts the sputtering. My hose is 30 feet long, probably too long, my tank is baking in 100 degree weather, in Texas too.
Since I can't afford a minor, I'll just go back to the gas supplier and ask them to change the hose, perhaps a different material, they did offer my two options but I had no idea if ones was better than the other. Also perhaps I should get a regulator.
I'll report back when I get the new configuration and tell you guys if anything worked.