Wildcat/Little Dragon 21/Midrange???!!

[pipyr]

Hey everyone! Well, as many of you know I just had surgery...twice...which leaves me an awful lot of time to think. I recently puchased a betta and had a few problems...when I am well enough, I need to send back the one I have and Bethlehem is going to send me a brand new one (they are a really fantastic company!!). I know I haven't even tried a betta that was working the way they are supposed to, but I can tell from hooking it up that it just isn't going to be the right torch for the way I like to work. I do want to add, though, that it IS an awesome torch for those who like a hot, penetrating, thrusting flame and a KILLER pinner :) I prefer to work big and bushy and hardly ever dial down to a pinner, so those great characteristics are lost on me. It took me a while to come to grips with the fact that those kinds of flames just aren't for me, even though I know it's what nearly everyone else hunts for ;) So, when the new one comes in, I have decided I will sell it to someone who will love it and get something more my style.

NOW...I am looking for a torch with a broader, fluffier flame. I don't need a seperate center fire, because this torch will be used mostly for medium-sized blown elements. For the small elements of my pieces, I will continue using my minor and I don't need to do any detail work that I can't manage on the side of a big flame. :) So, I have been looking at the Carlisle wildcat, knight little dragon 21 port, or the Nortel Midrange.

I will be working on tanked oxy. I want to be able to get a soft, bushy flame for blown work with some ability to dial down to about the flame size of a wide open minor or mini cc. After that, my main concern is Oxygen!! I want the torch I get to be as efficient as possible. Anyone have specs on the oxy consumption of these three torches?

Can anyone also tell me the flame diameter to expect from this size torch? I am concerned that the size of these will be slightly over-kill for what I need, but a minor- sized torch just isn't going to give me the width of flame that I want. I did think about a cheeta, but I am concerned about the thrusting flame characteristic, which is not what I like (so weird, I know!). Are there other torches I haven't thought of??

Thanks so much for any input you can give!!!!!!!!!

[shawnette]

Ron Jr (R4) has a Knight 21 jet. I was looking ino getting one a while back, but got a Lynx instead and now I have a Cheetah. I should have gotten the Knight because it has a nice wide flame, which is exactly what I wanted. Since you'll be doing all of your detail work on a minor, it would probably be your best buy, economically speaking.

Maybe Ron can chime in with specifics.

[Three Muses Glass]

Here is a short little video from Carlisle's site.
http://www.carlislemachine.com/CarlisleGlassworking/DougRemschneider_FlameworkedPendants.htm
I have the Wildcat and I'd say it's a nice torch, but I have no basis for comparison except for the Mini-CC. I've got it on tanked oxy with propane and it doesn't seem too bad on the oxy....maybe 12 hours on one of the 3 1/2-4 foot tall tanks. I don't know if that's good or not.

[pipyr]

Thanks for the input, guys! I have owned torches from both carlisle and knight and loved them both, so this is going to be a tough decision! ;)

Rebecca- what psi are you running your oxy at? Soft or Boro?

[Three Muses Glass]

I've finally got the Wildcat hooked up for just boro. Been wanting to do it for....almost a year I guess.#-o I'd say it's set on about 12-15 psi for oxy.

ps-hope your feeling better and back at it soon!

[kbinkster]

Just to add to the mix... I believe there is a used Phoenix for sale on the GLDG. The Phoenix is a GTT triple mix torch that has the flame width of a Phantom, but no seperate inner fire. It can get down to the size of a wide open Minor, though. I do not know the fuel/oxygen consumption rates of the Phoenix, but I am sure it is somewhere along the lines of a Phantom, making it very efficient. And, the nice thing is that since it is a triple mix, the torch body stays cool.

Good luck with your decision!

[pipyr]

Thanks for the input :) I did see that torch on GLDG...I think someone else has dibs on it first. My only concern with that one is that, being a GTT, it has that awesome thrusting flame that is lost on me. I work much better with a bushier flame. I do like the thought of the oxy efficiency, though :) And of course the triple mix is tempting!

[Venbead]

First of all pipyr welcome back. i hope you are feeling better. You gave us all a scare sista.
well I use a midrange but I'm on natural gas and 2 oxy cons. If I was on propane and tanked oxy I would absolutely own a wildcat. I used one in doug's class and it was much hotter and less bushy than my torch. I loved it. It is an oxy hog though campared to the midrange. If you like big bushy flames that can be brought down to minor size then the midrange might be your torch. If you want a penetrating heat and wide focused flame that can burn through a 1/8 mandrel in like 5 seconds if your not careful then the wildcat is your girl.

[Cosmo]

I know you said you didn't need the center flame, but I would still suggest a Barracuda. I went from a MidRange Plus to a Barracuda (and then a Tiger Shark), and there is no comparison. There will be times even when doing large blown work that you need a small flame. I sell Barracudas as fast as I can get them, and I have never heard of anyone having a complaint about them. For $699 you can't beat it.

They don't have the penetrating heat that a GTT does. GTT's seem to heat right to the center of the piece. The Bethlehems seem to heat the outside first, which seems to be what you are looking for. Plus they are great on oxygen. My Barracuda uses the same amount of oxygen as my MidRange, but is hotter.

[pipyr]

Chad and Paula-
Thank you both for the info!

Paula- I'm thinking the midrange might be a tad TOO bushy when I do want to heat a big gather for pendants and such. Do you know if I can dial in a slightly bushier flame on the wildcat when necessary? I'm thinking if I set my pressures a tad lower when I do my blown work, I might get a nice bushy feeling, judging from the typical Carlisle characteristics??

Chad- I REALLY wish beth made a cuda sized torch without a seperate center fire. It would be exactly what I needed. I know I'm weird, but I've worked on a bullet burner and HATE the thought of having to mess with 4 knobs...especially 4 HOT kobs!! I like simple things ;) And a Cuda PLUS a footpedal is TOTALLY out of my budget right now ;) The flame chemistry would be absolutely perfect, though *sigh*!

[kbinkster]

Well, the thing about thrust... you can control how little or how much thrust you have on a GTT by adjusting the blue valve. If you run the red and green valves only, it works just like a standard torch.

The more you turn on the blue valve (this is what controls the oxygen to the tiny injector tubes), the more you can sharpen the flame.

And, just to add another something about oxygen consumption, the Cheetah on its maximum flame setting consumes only 22 cubic feet per hour.

It would be nice if there were someplace lampworkers could go to try out different torches to find the right fit. Open torch at the Gathering is great, but that only happens once a year.

[Cosmo]

Chad and Paula-
Thank you both for the info!

Paula- I'm thinking the midrange might be a tad TOO bushy when I do want to heat a big gather for pendants and such. Do you know if I can dial in a slightly bushier flame on the wildcat when necessary? I'm thinking if I set my pressures a tad lower when I do my blown work, I might get a nice bushy feeling, judging from the typical Carlisle characteristics??

Chad- I REALLY wish beth made a cuda sized torch without a seperate center fire. It would be exactly what I needed. I know I'm weird, but I've worked on a bullet burner and HATE the thought of having to mess with 4 knobs...especially 4 HOT kobs!! I like simple things ;) And a Cuda PLUS a footpedal is TOTALLY out of my budget right now ;) The flame chemistry would be absolutely perfect, though *sigh*!

The knobs don't get hot. I can run mine all day and they don't get hot. And, you don't have to use the center fire if you don't want to. You don't need a foot pedal.

[Cosmo]

It would be nice if there were someplace lampworkers could go to try out different torches to find the right fit. Open torch at the Gathering is great, but that only happens once a year.

True. I try to have at least four or five torches set up all the time for people to try. A Minor, A Betta, Barracuda, and at least one Tiger Shark, PM2D, or Great White. That gives them a good general idea of how much torch they need.

I think it would benefit a lot of the people that sell torches if they would do the same thing. I know Kristian at Generations Glass does that as well.

[pipyr]

Well, the thing about thrust... you can control how little or how much thrust you have on a GTT by adjusting the blue valve. If you run the red and green valves only, it works just like a standard torch.

The more you turn on the blue valve (this is what controls the oxygen to the tiny injector tubes), the more you can sharpen the flame.

And, just to add another something about oxygen consumption, the Cheetah on its maximum flame setting consumes only 22 cubic feet per hour.

It would be nice if there were someplace lampworkers could go to try out different torches to find the right fit. Open torch at the Gathering is great, but that only happens once a year.

Thanks for the info! And yes, it sure would be nice to be able to try out a bunch of torches to see what I *really* wanted. It's tough trying to figure it all out this way!! ](*,)

[pipyr]

Chad- You're probably right. I should consider the Cuda too. I'm almost certain it has the flame I'm looking for. The thought of spending an extra $400 to get a centerfire I probably won't use much kills me, but maybe I'd make up for it in the long run with oxy savings...I've heard the Cuda is very efficient...

[Cosmo]

I have a used MidRange Plus sitting here that I can make you a good deal on as well...

[jokersdesign]

I would recommend 2 torches.

1- GTT Phantom. you can get bushy flames on a gtt and over all a better torch reguardless of working style. Only issue is getting a GTT and the cost.

2- Nortel Redmax. You can get a big bushy soft flame and then you get your minor on top of that. You said you were still going to use your minor. Now you could sell it and get a redmax with a minor on top. You should be able to get a redmax from many vendors and at less then half the cost of a Phantom.

[pipyr]

Thanks everyone for your feedback!! I snatched up a midrange today in the garage sale to use for now (can't beat $150 with marver and shipping included!) while I really contemplate what I want to go with. If I like it, I'll keep it. If not, at least I'll have a better idea of what I personally need in a larger torch and I'll have something to work on if I choose to save up the $ for a cuda or to get another bullet or something...or even something bigger ;) You have all been really helpful!!!!