Which Torch?

[Bob Torbett]

I'm about ready to upgrade from my HH. I've narrowed it down to 4. Minor, Betta, Mini CC and Wale Firebird. I've never worked with anything but the Fireworks Quiet Torch I got with the kit and the HH I switched to as soon as the Fireworks went south. I know there is a lot of discussion about which torch is better, but I would like some input from those who have used these torches. Personally I'm leaning toward either the Betta or Firebird. My main concern is a torch that gives both a nice fine flame for detail work and a hotter flame for larger work and maybe some Boro later.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Bob

[kbinkster]

Are you planning to use tanked oxygen, or are you planning to use a concentrator (or two)?

[Bob Torbett]

I'm planning to use a concentrator. but may have to use tanked oxy to start. If necessary and when funds permit I may add another oxycon later.

bob

[Marie C]

Bob, I'm so glad you asked this question. I'm pretty much in the same boat that you're in. I'm using a HH with MAPP gas right now. I'm going to be upgrading soon, but don't know what to get. I'm wanting to do the same things you are. I'll be using an 02 concentrator. Maybe I can learn something from the advise others send to you. Good luck to you. Have fun!!!

Warmly, Marie C

[Dale M.]

Any of the four you have mentioned are excellent torches...

You may also want to consider the GTT Bobcat or the National 8M with the SM7 tip...

All these torches have similar fuel/oxygen usage requirements, and all have a different sort of subtle flame characteristic and "heat"...

All are excellent entry level torches for fuel/oxygen torches. Almost all will function acceptably on one oxygen concentrator and will perform much better on 2 oxygen concentrators.


Dale

[G.L.McBead]

I sure liked my Mini cc It will do all that you want but works best with 2 concentrators,I have a Knight Bullet now.
G.

[Bob Torbett]

Hi marie C,

I hope we can both learn from this. I currently use bulk propane with my HH with good results. I do have a problem with moretti clear scumming, but using Lausha clear takes care of that.

I guess we'll see just what others have experienced.

Bob

[Bob Torbett]

Thanks Dale and G. I'll keep those torches in mind.

Bob

[dogmaw]

I would go with the Betta. I've had the betta and the minor, and if you only have limited oxy then I would definitely go with the betta. It is much more fuel efficient than your other choices, and gets plenty hot enough for boro, even on the two 5-lpm concentrators that I use.

[FourTailsLampwork]

I'm going to be on my HH/propane for a long time, but my sister *swears* by her Piranha for both soft glass and boro. She uses oxy tanks, so I don't know how it performs on an O2 concentrator.

[kbinkster]

I would go with the Betta. I've had the betta and the minor, and if you only have limited oxy then I would definitely go with the betta. It is much more fuel efficient than your other choices, and gets plenty hot enough for boro, even on the two 5-lpm concentrators that I use.
This is part of why I asked about whether tanks or a concentrator would be used.

The Betta is not more efficient than the other torches. In fact, to get its maximum flame, it actually consumes slightly more fuel and oxygen than the Piranha does to get its maximum flame. Bethlehem claims that it runs on lower pressures - not lower flows.

The Minor, Bobcat, Pirhana, and Betta are close to the same size (five and six jets) and consume close to the same amount of oxygen (they are standard torches that have roughly the same number of jets to feed).

The Firebird, on the other hand, has nine jets as opposed to six. This is 50% more to feed. This gives it a wider flame that is hard to narrow down for detail work. You will also find that it will take more oxygen to feed the Firebird than the others. And also, I have heard that the flame tops out too soon - it distorts and goes into reduction early.

I have played around on a Mini CC, and I just did not care for it very much. I did not like the valve action, but that is just my personal opinion. There are people who move from the HotHead to the Mini CC and report that they like theirs very much.

I used to teach a beginning bead making class using a Minor burner. I liked it just fine. It is a good torch.

I moved from the HotHead to a Lynx (for my personal studio) and got hooked on the GTT line. I used the needle flame a lot for my detail work.

Like Dale said above, all of your choices will run well on one 5 LPM concentrator, but will do much better on two (or on one 10 LPM concentrator).

[Bob Torbett]

Thanks all. My biggest obstical at this time is cost. I've got a limit of about $250 for the torch. I will still need the oxycon and a regulator for propane with hoses. I think that will limit me to a choice between the minor, mini cc and bobcat. The national 8m is also in that range with the sm7 tip. I appreciate all the input from everyone.

Thanks

Bob

[Aleigh]

Bob,

I worked on a hothead for about a year. I then upgraded to a Minor and worked on it for 3 years before getting my Pirahna. I used one oxycon with the Minor and I was very happy with it. For me it was a very easy transition from a hot head and you will LOVE how quiet it is. My family kept asking if I was sure it was working since it was so quiet. I am now thinking of adding a second oxycon to use with the Pirahna. I don't feel I am getting as much heat as I could be.

I found the Minor to be very straight forward and easy to use. I am finding my Pirahna to be more finicky, I love it, but it has been more work to get used to than the Minor was. I don't know about the other torches.

Amy

[bhhco]

Your moving from a HH to a two-gas. This next torch you buy will not be your last. It should be the easiest one to transition to... go with the Minor. It will gently take you from a HH flame to a two-gas flame.

Later, when you really know first hand what you want out of a two-gas torch, then spend the bigger bucks. Take the extra money you save now by getting a Minor and buy an oxycon now. You don't need to buy a regulator for a oxycon, and coupled with cost of oxygen, and tank/rental it costs, it's less than tanks in under one year.

A year from now you will know exactly what you expect from a torch, and you will have one paid for oxycon, and you can sell the Minor to another one-gas user wanting to add a two-gas torch to thier studio (and you'll know why it will be a really good deal for them). Then you can spend the bigger bucks on the 'perfect torch' (at least for another year ;)).

Me

[Bob Torbett]

bhhco, I think your suggestion is really sounding good to me. I'm going to try to test a minor this weekend at a shop in the area. I have come to the conclusion that the Minor may be the way to go since many people have indicated the transition from the HH was so easy. I haven't heard any comments about transitioning to a Bobcat. I also have heard that the Bobcat needs 2 oxycons to attain full power. Any comments??

Bob

[kbinkster]

bhhco, I think your suggestion is really sounding good to me. I'm going to try to test a minor this weekend at a shop in the area. I have come to the conclusion that the Minor may be the way to go since many people have indicated the transition from the HH was so easy. I haven't heard any comments about transitioning to a Bobcat. I also have heard that the Bobcat needs 2 oxycons to attain full power. Any comments??

Bob
The Bobcat and the Minor are about the same size and require about the same amount of fuel and oxygen. They can both run well on one 5 LPM concentrator, but both do better on two of them (or a single larger unit).

Because the Bobcat is a standard torch, it operates the same way the Minor does. The Bobcat, however, has the GTT patented cooling system and precision valves. On the low end flames, they are pretty close in what they can do. On the top end flames, the Bobcat can get a wider flame.

Either one is a good choice.

[Bob Torbett]

Thanks again. I'll try to find a Bobcat in the Fort Worth area I can try out

Bob

[dogmaw]

This is part of why I asked about whether tanks or a concentrator would be used.

The Betta is not more efficient than the other torches. In fact, to get its maximum flame, it actually consumes slightly more fuel and oxygen than the Piranha does to get its maximum flame. Bethlehem claims that it runs on lower pressures - not lower flows.


Ok, this is probably a stupid question, but I will ask anyway. For my betta, I have the propane set at 2, and use 2 5-lpm concetrators to do boro. On my minor this setting is quite clearly not as hot, and I would have to add gas and oxy at a higher pressure to get the same flame. Lower pressure = less gas comming out. Doesn't that mean the betta is actually using less gas to get a hotter flame, and is thus more efficient?

[Kalera]

Jo, the answer as I understand it is that the Betta is making better use of the relatively high flow rate (10 LPM) but low pressure (8-9 PSI, max) from your concentrators. Likewise the low pressure of your propane is not the same as a low volume... think of a squirtgun (high pressure, low volume) vs a garden hose (low pressure, high volume).

The Betta is very good at making efficient use of low-pressure gas, but it likes a bit more volume (ng - low pressure, more or less unlimited volume) to really excell.

[x_phoenician]

Hi Bob,

I'm on a HotHead still but have used a Minor, Barracuda ;) and Lynx(mine).
I just used my Lynx for the first time last Saturday on tanked oxy at a friend's house- AWESOME! I was astounded at how easy it was to get colors from raku and reactive glasses.
But because you have a budget of only $250 right now (Lynx is around $435), my personal choice would be the Minor. The Minor was going to be my choice until a family member agreed to help me upgrade my equipment... and then I decided on the Lynx. I enjoyed using my friend's Minor and for using it the first time, didn't have too much trouble getting adjusted.

Good luck!
~Tracy

[Cosmo]

We sell Minors as fast as we can get them. Same with Bettas (which are a little out of your price range). Honestly, I don't think there is a bad torch in that size from any of the companies. And especially going from a Hot Head to a dual fuel torch, it's going to be a whole new world anyways. You will be fine with a Minor, Mini CC, Betta, Lynx, Bobcat, or anything like that. The only problem I have with the Nationals is that you have to get different tips to do different things. By the time you get all the tips you need, you have spent more than if you had bought a different torch that would do all that to begin with.

[Marie C]

Hi Bob,

Have you made a decision yet? I think I'm going to go with the Minor. Sounds like an easy transition from the HH.

Now I have a question: Is the Minor the same as the Minor Bench Burner? If you don't know, maybe some of the others will.

Best of luck! Warmly, Marie C

[Cosmo]

Hi Bob,

Have you made a decision yet? I think I'm going to go with the Minor. Sounds like an easy transition from the HH.

Now I have a question: Is the Minor the same as the Minor Bench Burner? If you don't know, maybe some of the others will.

Best of luck! Warmly, Marie C

Yep. "Minor" is just short for "Minor Bench Burner".

I know where to find a good deal on one....

[Bob Torbett]

Okay, I think I've narrowed it down to either the minor or mini cc. I know the bobcat is in the same range, but I'm not sure how good a pinpoint flame it will produce. Chad, I imagine that you could let us know about the flame characteristics for pinpoint work and how wide or bushy you can get for larger work. Am I wrong in presuming the mini cc has the widest range of the three?

Bob

[Cosmo]

Honestly, there isn't enough difference to really tell. The Betta and Bobcat can get narrower flames (I believe that is a result of how close the ports are together), but they can all get pretty wide, bushy flames.

[Dale M.]

The only problem I have with the Nationals is that you have to get different tips to do different things. By the time you get all the tips you need, you have spent more than if you had bought a different torch that would do all that to begin with.

I think your thinking is a bit flawed...

Well, what tips do you need.... Small tip, SM 7 (6 fuel ports) for small detailed work, large tip SM 21 ( 29 fuel ports) for large work... Think torch body is $139, SM 7 tip is $76 and SM-21 tip is $96 ... For $312 you have the equivalent of two torches that would equal about $450-500 (or more) if you had to buy the two individual torches....

http://www.nationaltorch.com/8m.html

You could eventually upgrade it to this combination by getting Rider torch ($140 or so)...

http://www.nationaltorch.com/Rider.htm

Do not think there is any single torch as versatile out there on market and for the dollars

http://www.artglass1.com/national8mtr.html

Dale

[Mr. Smiley]

I had a national and hated it. I had the small surface mix tip and it was a really unorganized flame. I didn't like the pronounced star shape of the flame. It's definitely not my choice... If you want the premix capability, I'd go with a national hand torch for next to nuttin and get a different small surface mix bench torch. Just my .02. Some people love the national, but they are mainly soft glass folks. ;)

[Lisi]

I've worked with a Mini CC as my first upgrade torch after using the HH for 18 months. The Mini is a great torch, hotter than the Minor they say. Mine was broken when a friend broke off a piece of cleaning wire in a gas port. sigh...

I had bought a Bobcat as an emergency replacement torch, and I fell in love with GTT! The flame is sharper, more focused, thus a little hotter than the Mini CC. I can make boro beads faster with the Bobcat. :) I would go with the GTT, and when you want more heat, move on up to the Lynx which is a great small/medium sized boro torch and will be nice for your soft glass too.

My suggestion is that if you are going to run a concentrator (a 5 lpm unit) with anyone of those torches that you have narrowed your choices down to, that would be great for soft glass, but for boro, you will need two. I read somewhere that the Wale Firebird needs more oxy, so you may need two concentrators to effectively run this torch. But if you get something like an Integra 10, then that machine alone would be great for boro on any of those torches.

I run my torch with an Airsep AS-12A which is a generator and it has a hi-pressure of 15-18psi. A little overkill for the smaller torches like the Bobcat, but I'm glad I have it because my next one up is the Lynx. :)

Like I said, I love GTT! :love: :love: :love:

[Cosmo]

I think your thinking is a bit flawed...

Well, what tips do you need.... Small tip, SM 7 (6 fuel ports) for small detailed work, large tip SM 21 ( 29 fuel ports) for large work... Think torch body is $139, SM 7 tip is $76 and SM-21 tip is $96 ... For $312 you have the equivalent of two torches that would equal about $450-500 (or more) if you had to buy the two individual torches....

http://www.nationaltorch.com/8m.html

You could eventually upgrade it to this combination by getting Rider torch ($140 or so)...

http://www.nationaltorch.com/Rider.htm

Do not think there is any single torch as versatile out there on market and for the dollars

http://www.artglass1.com/national8mtr.html

Dale

Possibly. But, I don't know a single person who started with a National that kept using it for very long. Every one I know moved on to something else when they could.

[Bob Torbett]

I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I don't think this could be accomplished while making a bead without loosing the heat in the glass to the point of causing problems bringing it back up, while on other torches you just adjust to your needs. In other words you can't change flame characteristics on the fly. Am I wrong in making this presumption?

After looking at the Rider, I'm concerned with the placement of the valves. Why on earth would someone place the gas valves angled forward putting them closer to the flame. Especally when mounted on a larger torch. This design makes no sense to me. I may be fairly new to the lampworking arena, but I have worked with welding equipment for over 40 years and have never seen anything so poorly designed, especally from a well known torch manufacturer. This makes me wonder who they have hired in their R&D division. They need a visit to the "REAL WORLD". IMHO

Bob

[bhhco]

No. You use the small tip for small projects (beads) and the large tip for large projects (goblets). You chose the tip for the "size" of the project and keep it on the whole time.

Me

[Dale M.]

I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I don't think this could be accomplished while making a bead without loosing the heat in the glass to the point of causing problems bringing it back up, while on other torches you just adjust to your needs. In other words you can't change flame characteristics on the fly. Am I wrong in making this presumption?

IF the scenario you present were true that you needed to change flame/torch size for different portion of project, then you would have to have multiple torches in your studio for different processes on different portion of beads with any torches previously mentioned ... You logic seems to be flawed here because original concept of thread is what torch might be best --Meaning single torch -- I only argue National because it is more versatile for application size and less cost than any other combination of torches you may have to have for various sized projects... If one starts with a minor at $170 and then want something larger for other projects it is $400 at least for additional bigger torch (you now have $570 invested) and TWO torches... IF you start with National 8M and SM 7 tip its $200 ... To move up to larger torch (for large projects) its only $96 for BIGGER TIP... Saving about $275....

Dale

[bhhco]

After looking at the Rider, I'm concerned with the placement of the valves.
Bob
How on earth did the Rider slip in here? I think what was suggested was a 8M... the torch under the Rider. There is an adapter for the 8M (NOT the Rider) that slips into the 8M body to accept pre-mix tips.

BTW, the 8M surface mix tips are SM 5, SM 7, and SM 21. Pick a project size... pick a tip... I always screw up the number of actual ports in each tip, like SM7 is 7 (but it's oxygen not fuel ports), the SM21 is more but isn't 21... heck... I'm already confused... help Dale!). Bottom line... at least historically... more ports, bigger flame, bigger project.

Bob... are you writting a book? If so, add Valves (since you mentioned it, and a eariler post did too). Not where they are placed... but how easy is it to control the flame character. Are "steering" the valves like driving a hummer or a porsche? Or does it even really matter as long as it gets you to your destination?

Me

[kbinkster]

I've got to rule the 8M out based on the fact of the multiple tips. In order to change the flame you have to shut the torch down, change tips then restart. I don't think this could be accomplished while making a bead without loosing the heat in the glass to the point of causing problems bringing it back up, while on other torches you just adjust to your needs. In other words you can't change flame characteristics on the fly. Am I wrong in making this presumption?

After looking at the Rider, I'm concerned with the placement of the valves. Why on earth would someone place the gas valves angled forward putting them closer to the flame. Especally when mounted on a larger torch. This design makes no sense to me. I may be fairly new to the lampworking arena, but I have worked with welding equipment for over 40 years and have never seen anything so poorly designed, especally from a well known torch manufacturer. This makes me wonder who they have hired in their R&D division. They need a visit to the "REAL WORLD". IMHO

Bob
Well, Bob, I think that you bring up some good points.

Some people like to use the larger tip to make larger items, but then, when you want to focus the flame (like for doing detail work on these larger items), you would be limited as to how narrow you could get it. You do have some adjustment within each tip, but, I tell you what - if I needed a wide flame like what is available on an SM-21, I would still like for it to be able to get down to a small point to do melt-ins and such. How small could you go on an 8M with the SM-21 tip?

It's interesting that National/Premier has holes for the oxygen and slots for the fuel gas. It's usually the other way around for surface mix torches.

And about the Rider, Dale brought that up.

Valve placement is important for exactly the reason you mention, Bob. It doesn't matter how smooth the valves are if they are placed so close to the face that it is too hot to use them or if they are arranged in such a funky way that they are too awkward to use.

Just as a side note, Wale Apparatus used to say that when Carlisle came out with the Mini CC, the valves were up close to the face of the torch and that Carlisle only moved them back after they (Wale) pointed it out to them that they would get too hot to use.

[Bob Torbett]

Well I think this thread has gotten out of control. Thank all of you for the input. I didn't mean to start any arguments between anyone or suggest that anyone was wrong about their views concerning various torches. I was just looking for persons likes and dislikes about various torches. Based on that input and looking at a lot of the tech data on these torches, I have decided the Bobcat is the torch I will purchase.
Dale, I have used many National torches over the years since they have been making welding torches for many years. Some of them I think are better than Victor, and that is saying a lot. I think their products are about the best in the industry for that purpose. I just don't think the 8M fits my needs. I might consider the 8M with the Rider if they redesign the valves on the rider to get them behind the heat shield.

Thanks again to everyone for the input.

Bob

[bhhco]

Excellent choice!

Me

[kbinkster]

I'm glad you decided on a torch.

I hope my post did not sound like I was talking bad about the 8M or arguing about anything. I just have the same questions/concerns about the 8M as you do. It is not a torch that I am overly familiar with - I have seen them, and have talked to people about them, but don't have experience running one myself. I really would like to know how small the flame can get while using the SM-21 tip. And about the oxygen holes and fuel slots, that's just an observation - nothing more.

I am a tool junkie, so all torches interest me. I haven't found one yet that hasn't.

[Eplanet]

I've got the 8M, all the tips, and the rider mounted on top. It's a great torch, but I am a bit frustrated with it because I find the flame a bit 'scattered'. By that I mean, the flame bounces around and is not focused or concise enough to get good heat control on specific areas of a bead. The rider is also nice to have ontop, but I don't run it very often because it gets incredibly hot and I burn my fingers if I accidently touch it. If I get both flames going I can use the larger 8m flame for larger overall heating and the rider for precise areas.

As far as the knobs being too far forward: the rider portion is on an adjustable slide, so just move the whole tip backwards so the knobs are in line with the 8M tip.

What I've found works best for my application is to buy the PA-1 tip adapter, and attach an HTC-1 tip. It gives off an nice sharp flame. On the negative side: it's about 2 feet long and loud. It also can burn the bejesus out of many colors that need a cool flame.

Overall, good torch and very very versatile with the interchangeable tips, but not too applicable for my application. I've been looking at moving on to one of the torches in the GTT line or Barracuda.

Can anyone give some advice on the Cuda? (for sm-med boro work)

[HardwoodTrailGlass]

Cathy, I'd get a Lynx, my own personal preference ;)
That is what I started working Boro w/ until I upgraded to a Phantom.

[Eplanet]

Thanks Carrie,

One question though - why did you move up from the Lynx? Have you tried the Cheetah? (OK...two questions :))