Heart breaking bead crackings. What am I doing wrong???

[Moth]

I'm almost ASHAMED to have to ask this after lampworking 4 years, but I have to humble myself and seek help from people who use lots of fine silver wire in their beads.

I don't have very much incidence of cracking in my beads. It happens so infrequently that I really freak out when it does. This particular situation has me heart broken.

I've been making these beads, and I've tried different bases, different colors, different clears for the encasement, but every EVERY time I put the fine silver wire on the surface, I get cracks. The only thing all 12 beads have in common is the silver wire.

I have noticed that while using the silver wire, some beads go deeper into the clear than others and the cracking all seems to stem from those larger dots of silver, that are more deeply embedded into the bead. The cracks spread out from those dots of silver. Usually they travel from dot to dot, and then to the mandrel. If there is a large dot of silver on the front, and another on the back, there will be a crack connecting those two dots of silver.

I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I use a conservative annealing schedule. I garage at 968, my hold is 45 minutes after the last bead goes in, then my ramp down to 877 takes 3 hours, my ramp down from 877 to 600 takes 2 hours, then it takes about another 2-3 hours to come down to room temperature.

I'm not sure, but I'm assuming that the silver dots are cooling more quickly than the glass, and causing stress at points all over the face of the bead, which of course is gonna cause cracking. I have tried giving the bead an extra heat flash before garaging it to try and buy the glass some time to catch up with the silver, but that hasn't worked, as you can see from the pictures.

These are two of the beads, but I have ten more here that look just like 'em.

For any advice or tips at all, I'd be most grateful!!!

Thanks in advance. There are tabs, but they are almost 13mm thick, so I know it isn't thermal cracking from mashing them too thin. And I make encased tabs all the time that don't crack...it is just these silver ones. I'm usually a good beadmaker. :(

~~Mary

I edited this to put in the picture with the white-marked cracks cuz the other pictures were too hard to see the where the cracks are.

43204

[swanseafarm]

I'm no expert, but it looks like you are letting the bead hole area get too cool while you are applying the silver embellishments and then not slowly reheating the bead holes and the entire bead to a slight glow before putting in the kiln. I don't think it's the silver dots doing it, I think it's a time factor.
But, that's just my opinion. I might be way off base.

[Moth]

Thanks Bonnie!

I would be inclined to agree, especially with how incriminating that first bead shot looks LOL.

But the bead on the right in the second picture, has no crack along the mandrel, the only cracking in that bead is a connect the dots type of cracking from left to right across the face of the bead. No vertical cracking from hole to hole. And the cracking is only one the front, the back has no cracking, even though there are smaller dots of silver on the back.

And why on the first bead, if it is just a faulty heating thing, why are the dots of silver all connected with cracks? One of them wraps all the way around to the other side and connects to another silver dot, then stops there. Also, that vertical crack along the mandrel in that first shot is only on the front. Usually if you have a thermal problem with a tab, it will crack along the mandrel on both sides, not just one. At least for me, maybe only cracking on the one side is more characteristic than I thought.

Thanks for the help. I will try putting a deeper heat into it before I garage it.

~~Mary

[swanseafarm]

I guess I can't see the connect the dots cracks.

What gauge fine silver are you using? I use 28g and never have had cracking problems. I don't know what else it could be.
Those beads are beautiful BTW....I can see why you are so frustrated.
I hope someone else has a better answer than me.

[squid]

I was thinking something similar. Those do not look like incompatibility cracks - they look like thermal shock cracks. If it was incompatibility, I would expect the crack to radiate from the silver, not run the length of the bead.

[Moth]

I agree that it isn't incompatibility. It is definitely thermal. And most of the cracks do radiate from silver dots. The one on the right has cracks from dot to dot around the silver and no crack running the length of the bead.

Thanks for trying to help you guys. It is 28 gauge fine silver that I received as an raogk.

~~Mary

[Moth]

Here is a picture that I drew over the cracks with white so you can see them better. Some of them are hard to see if you don't know where they are. LOL

43204

[saxon]

Mary,
I use a lot if silver wire as well as copper and foil ,sometimes all at once.
Im not all that experienced at bead making , but I only have a crack if encasing. Then about 1/3 of the time.What I do to even out the temp though is heat the mandril to red at each end of the bead just before the garage. I think I hope that gives the glass a chance to even out. I have worked in Gold and silver for a long time and I do know that silver flash cools .so the bigger the sil dot the more surface is affected by the cooling.
I Hate cracks.
S

[saxon]

Also I do keep the temp a little higher in the kiln when Im using lots of metal on the glass.
S

[Moth]

Yes, I'm thinking maybe I should up my garaging and annealing temp just a hair along with the other advice I get here. Lauscha clear is what I like best, and it likes to be hot anyway. Sure can't hurt to try!

[Moth]

Come to think of it, the only other time I've ever used the silver wire on a bead, I encased afterward and it didn't crack. No, I take that back, I used it on the surface of a solid lauscha olive bicone once and it turned out fine. I put a frog on it. This has me plexed.

I'm just going to concentrate on keeping the holes hotter and up the temp of the kiln a bit. We'll see what everyone else says and maybe something new will come to light.

Thanks all of you. I appreciate it!!
~~Mary

[squid]

how frustrating this must be - i went back and looked at the second pic and I see better now what you mean by the dot to dot cracks. I'm thinking perhaps the silver is acting as a heatsink - have you tried hitting the silver again right before you put it in the kiln?

[Moth]

So far all the suggestions have been for MORE heat, so I'm gonna go with that. LOL

Thanks Sigrid!

~~Mary

[MaryBeth]

Hi Mary,
I use a lot of silver wire. I use 28 gauge. After putting in on the surface of the bead I roll the bead in the flame to let the heat sink in slowly so that the bead would be at the low orange heat base stage. Do this in the upper third of the flame and give it a minute or two. Then put the bead in the kiln. Do not let the glow wear off.

Done properly, the silver will not burn off but rather it will sink into the glass and adhere better. I never had thermal cracking from silver and I often etch my beads that have surface silver wire - with no loss of the silver.

I soak at 970 to 980 for about an hour then I ramp down at 1 degree per minute until I reach 700 degrees.

One more thing - Lauscha is picky about silver - but I do use a lot of silver with the Lauscha glassdaddy purple and the Lauscha transparent olive green with no problems.

[Moth]

Thanks Mary Beth.

I just made two more of these.

What I changed: I upped my garaging temp from 968 to 985.

I kept the ends almost glowing the whole time. I was constantly heating the ends and keeping them really hot. Almost hot enough to lose my nice dimpled holes, but not quite. Once I did put the silver on, I heated the whole bead back up really slowly so that the inside got nice and orange without melting in all my surface decoration. I let that die down just a bit, but it was still glowing, I could see it even under my hood light. I heated the mandrel at each side to glowing, I opened the door to my kiln, swirled the bead in the flame one more time and put it in the kiln.

I made two exactly the same, one with silver and the other I just put stringer dots where the silver would go. If the silver one cracks and the stringer one doesn't, I'm really going to wonder what I did wrong.

Thanks again for all the input you guys. I really want to get this right and it has to be user-error because so many people are doing it successfully.

~~Mary

[SharonP]

Back when I learned the technique, I was told that I should only use 'fine silver', not sterling.

I made some beads using the sterling that I had handy and they all cracked like yours, so I got some fine silver from Rio and didn't have any more problems.

Sterling has a percentage of other metals mixed in, and apparently fine silver is just the silver, and is compatible with moretti.

Hope this helps, *sharon*

[Starrr]

Mary, if it were me, I'd try different silver wire. I'm having a hard time seeing the problem as user error, you are very experienced with larger beads, encasing, dicro, ect... Those silver dots are tiny compare to the size and gauge that I use and have never had cracking between silver dots.

I thought my annealing schedule was conservative, but it takes your kiln 3 hours to ramp down to 877 from your initial 968 soak? That's a long time or did I read it incorrectly?

I soak for an hour at 960
ramp to 860, soak an hour,
ramp to 760 soak an hour, ramp to 500
and then the kiln turns off

now don't cringe... LOL
at 250 or so, I crack both bead doors about an inch,
at 150 I open them both up all the way
and get my beads out at around 100

I figure the annealing process is more than done at 250, so why not hurry things along.

My bets the wire.

Edie

[Kevan]

You gotta melt that stuff in more. Don't be afraid of it.

Melt it so it completely balls up like this.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i242/chichiboy/ivorysilverwrappedlady.jpg

[ocdlampwork]

I use lots of silver wire and have never had a cracking problem. until.... they day I used Lauscha clear with my wire. I suggest trying Vetrofond Super Clear. It is so similar to Lauscha though not as crystal clear but it's pretty darn close. Save the Lauscha for the florals and dicro where it really counts.;) Sterling silver will turn blackish when melted and that doesn't go away unless you tumble the silver. .999% is the stuff that stays silver through heating and that definitely looks to be what you've got. I don't think that is your problem. I think it's the Lauscha clear. The clear has some quirks that sometimes are way too costly to try and figure out. The Vetro. super clear doesn't crack with silver so you won't lose big bucks on glass, time, creativity and your temper when they crack.:-D

Tracey

[shawnette]

I use a lot of fine silver wire, also. I usually use 28g and garage at 950, then ramp up to 970, hold for 2 hours and ramp down slowly to 500. Never had a crack.

[Moth]

Back when I learned the technique, I was told that I should only use 'fine silver', not sterling.

I made some beads using the sterling that I had handy and they all cracked like yours, so I got some fine silver from Rio and didn't have any more problems.

Sterling has a percentage of other metals mixed in, and apparently fine silver is just the silver, and is compatible with moretti.

Hope this helps, *sharon*

Thanks Sharon, but this is fine silver. Sterling would turn all grungy, wouldn't it? And need to be pickled? I only figured this because when I was making the glass tipped headpins I had to use fine silver or I had to pickle and tumble them to get the fire scale off.

Thanks for taking the time to give me some input though!

~~Mary

[Moth]

Thanks for your input Shawnette! I might have some questions to ask you later.

Thanks Kevan! I put the silver on right after I mash the bead and the bead gets pretty soft again. All my silver spots are round dots and they aren't sitting up high on the surface. How much do you cook yours?

Tracey, I do have some vetro-super clear. I have tried these beads with regular vetrofond, lauscha and effetre. I'll give the super clear a try. I think the only reason I haven't tried it already is that I only have large diameter rods and I haven't pulled them down to smaller sizes yet. Now that you mention it though, the cracking is less on beads that aren't with the lauscha. I don't think I gave that variable much consideration since they were still cracked. I'm very anxious to see what happens with the two I made tonight.

When I went and adjusted my kiln temp, I made sure that my temperature probe was in the right position in the kiln and it was okay.

Edie, thanks for your input too! I'm pretty sure this is fine silver wire because it acts right and looks right...but if I don't figure this out pretty soon I'm certainly going to order new. I only had about 5 feet of this to begin with.

And yes, you read my annealing schedule right. It is impossible to OVER anneal, (unless you are working a color that doesn't like to be hot a long time) and lots of my work is solid and over an inch thick. I think the period of time while your bead is ramping down from annealing temp to strain point is the most crucial time of your whole schedule. That is the period of time when permanent stress can be introduced into your pieces. Any stress introduced and/or not relieved during the annealing soak, and ramp down to strain...is stress that will live in that bead forever. I'm not taking any chances. LOL In my opinion (whatever THAT'S worth at this point) your ramp down is too fast. Then again, I'm the one sitting here with cracked beads and you AREN'T. LOL

Not sure I'd be taking my advice on this right now. LOL

Have a good night.

~~Mary

Please keep in mind that this post contains my opinions. They are not gospel no matter how much I believe in them and I hope nobody will be offended if I disagree with THEIR opinions. I just think we are all teachers and we are all learning and whatever we can glean from each other, the better off we will all be. So, I honestly do want to hear reasons why your opinions or information are better because you might change my mind. I'm not questioning you because I'm stalwart and self-righteous. I just want to know why. Hugs. Really!

[paintingwithglass]

Hi Mary! Great advice everyone gave you...but what are all of the layers...are you mixing COEs? It could be from the mix of glass you are using too. Try a test one with just a base color or only one COE glass mixture then the clear and the silver...not lauscha clear but effetre or vetrofond then see what happens. Looks like you have too many COEs going on.

[Moth]

That could be playing a part Fay. Let's see, the one on the left is sage green, a thin layer of raku powder, lauscha clear. That striped cane is all 104 coe and 104 coe frits. I think the only thing in that one that isn't 104 is the raku powder. But lauscha can be moody too so let's count that as a partially different coe LOL. Then add the silver and all hell breaks loose.

The one on the right is effetre ivory, with effetre silvered ivory wrapped around and around. Even less raku powder...I think two little splotches...and encased in lauscha with the same striped cane as the other one.

The ones I made tonight are ink blue, rolled in 104 frits and a spit of white enamel, encased in lauscha...same striped can and then the silver.

The dots on all of them are opal yellow.

If the ones I made tonight come out all cracked up, I'm gonna not use lauscha clear, and no raku or enamel...only 104 frits. Vetrofond super clear and the silver. I thought the only thing these beads ALL have in common is the silver, but I was wrong. They also all have something non-traditional added...like enamel or a testy frit. It isn't always the same thing, but the combination of the testy frit or a finicky effetre special color along with the lauscha clear and the silver just may be too much to handle.

I'm not going to let this beat me. I'm gonna make these beads if it takes me 3 months to get a survivor. LOL

~~Mary

[Moth]

This type of bead is so removed from my usual kind of stuff that there are a lot of different interactions to keep track of than what I'm used to. This is good for me to learn this and hopefully it will help someone else having problems that hasn't posted about it before.

I love this place.

~~Mary

[beadygirl]

Yeah I was gonna say.....are you SURe that the wire you are using is FINE silver. Sounds to be the cuplrit.

[Moth]

The person who sent it to me says that it is fine silver, and I trust her...and it looks like fine silver to me. And it acts like fine silver. She is using it without incident...it's something I'm doing wrong. Or something I'm mixing together that has no business being mixed together.

I would say I'm 99% positive it is fine silver. I didn't see the order slip or the receipt or any packaging...but I know it's fine silver. I have no reason to doubt that. However, if it seems like it is the only variable causing problems once I switch out everything else...then that 1% of not positive that is leftover would direct me to order a new batch of wire and go with that.

I'm convinced though that it is a combination of heat issues and too much junk in the layers that is causing my problems. Now just to work out how much I can get away with and what I have to change.

Thanks for your help!! I appreciate your input.
:biggrin:
~~Mary

[Moth]

Well, back to the drawing board. The bead made with no silver, but otherwise the same, has no cracks. The one with silver is crazed all over.

Gonna use a different clear and no other fancy business except the silver when I try again. Oh Tartar Sauce!

~~Mary

[kimberly]

I am wondering if your silver dots are too big. This is an interesting problem.

[MaryBeth]

I think it is the Lauscha clear then. I love everything Lauscha except for the clear - which I hate! It just doesn't work for my style of beads.

[kimberly]

I should have read more closely before I posted. I didn't realize you were using Lauscha. I agree with Mary Beth - the Lauscha could very well be the culprit. I don't use Lauscha clear, either. Just don't have time to risk cracking issues!!!

[Moth]

Yes, can't agree more about the lauscha. It has always worked well for me on my florals, but it is much testier as far as what 'additives' you can get away with. Throw it the slightest curve and it revolts. LOL

I do use a lot of effetre clear and I don't have any real complaints with it. I'm going to make a few more of these on Monday and see what gives.

Thanks for taking the time to check up on me guys. I really do appreciate it. I'm feeling like a failure over this.

~~Mary

[squid]

You should feel more like a research scientist :) I can't wait to hear the update. This has become fascinating.

[paintingwithglass]

Hi Mary!!

Okay....step away from your Lauscha clear...it does not play nice with silver...and I noticed you are putting silver leaf/foil/stringer in the core beads too. Lausha tends to have issues when encasing ivory too. So, put it away and save it for your flower beads.

For your reactive glass mixtures take out effetre. Effetre works the best encasing silvered glass.

[Moth]

Thanks Fay.

I'm thinking you are right. It is the combination of the silver and the lauscha because even the beads that didn't have lauscha as the final encasement, have some in there somewhere. That silvered ivory stringer that I made was an encased version and guess what I encased it with. Yeah.

All my effetre and super clear vetro are 12mm rods. I think after church tomorrow I will pull those down to encasing-sized rods so I can get to work Monday night and not have to mess around pulling clear first.

If that change fixes it I'm gonna be ordering a lot of 12mm clear effetre. LOL

~~Mary
Thanks again.

[Moth]

And if anyone is curious as to what the ink blue one that I made looks like..it is listed on eBay...and no that isn't a sales pitch. LOL If I wanted to make a sales pitch, I'd post in the Bathroom. Bwahahaha...it gets the most traffic.

OH, so hubby and I are sitting at the kitchen table this afternoon having tea and hubby says, 'You are totally zoned out, what are you thinking?'

I replied: "I have crack problems."

I thought he was gonna die.

[Heather/Ericaceae]

OH, so hubby and I are sitting at the kitchen table this afternoon having tea and hubby says, 'You are totally zoned out, what are you thinking?'

I replied: "I have crack problems."

I thought he was gonna die.

*kersnort!* :D Jokes only lampworkers will get!!! :) -H.

[KEW]

I think it might not be fine silver. I don't know how you can tell by looking at it, I have both and except for the bags they are in and that they are in completely seperate rooms, I couldn't tell the difference.

I'm also puzzled at your annealing schedule. Why the slow ramp to 860 when the strain pint is 820? I hardly ever have cracking and that is user error (thermal cracking). I garage at 965, soak for 30 min (do any large beads earlier in my work), ramp down at 200 deg/hour to about 600 degrees. Then I let the kiln lose its heat for several hours. The 860 figure puzzles me.

***I didn't mean to sound accusatory and I know my post does. Sorry. But I plan my life around my annealing schedule and don't understand why we all can't be more straightforward about it.

[Moth]

I can't tell the wire is fine silver by looking at it until after it is flamed. When you flame fine silver, it stays shiny and bright. When you flame sterling it turns black with fire scale. That is how I can tell by looking at it.

And I was always told that the strain point of effetre was 877. I'm going to go find where I learned that because my whole schedule revolves around 877 as the strain point.

If it is 820, then I'll certainly adjust my schedule to reflect that difference.

And I thought I was pretty straight forward. LOL I didn't hold anything back. But now that you mention it...the annealing schedules that don't make sense to me are the ones that garage low...then ramp up to annealing, soak and then ramp down from there. Why the low garage temp?? I don't get that...why not just garage at the annealing temp?

Anyway, I'm going to go figure out where I learned the strain temp of effetre so I can weigh my information.

Thank you.
~~Mary

[Moth]

This is actually getting funny, if it weren't so frustrating.

I thought the strain temp was 877

You say it is 820

The first site I found said that it is 770--mountainglassarts

The second site I found said that 700 is the strain point- islaga

crloo says the strain point is 840 (but they also say that 920 is the low-end annealing temp and I wouldn't dare go below 940)

so far these are ALL lower than what I've been using

Arrow Springs says the strain point for effetre is 800

Now, in the very same thread called 'annealing digest' in the technical forum of wet canvas, the following temps are given as strain point for effetre: 850, 830, 840, one person says it this way- 'ramp down to 770 which is 30 degrees below strain point, Dale M says it's 860.

Bill Brach says it's 860.

Inspiration farms says it is 850.

So far nobody has said anything as high as what I've been using but I would have bet you $100 that it came from Dale M because when I first started I took everything he said as gospel and he helped me program my kiln. But he is in a post saying 860 so I have that wrong somehow.

Dunham says it is 830 in Contemporary Lampworking and so far this reference is the one I would trust the most. Or even the 820 you are saying. It actually galls me that I've been thinking that I was being super conservative when all these years I've been an idiot.

OK, so what I've read is enough for me. I would say that the mean number is 840...a lot lower than what I've been doing. Dunham says 830, you say 820 so I'm going to go with the 820 because I honestly believe you CANNOT over anneal and I'd rather err on the side of caution. However, I am not going to shorten my ramp time.

I don't care that my schedule takes a long time because I program the kiln, run the cycle and go to bed. It is cooled to room temp in 8 hours and that's good enough for me. I really don't have cracking issues on my normal beads and I've always trusted my schedule. I do admit that it is slow. Slower than anyone else's I've ever read or heard about...but I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

The only thing bad about my schedule is that it revolved around too high a strain point. It can't possibly hurt to take it all the way down to 820 so that is what I'm going to do. And I heartily thank you for bringing that to my attention. I really appreciate it. Where in the hell I got 877 is beyond me. My only excuse was that I was new...and it seemed to be working...so I never fiddled around with it. My kiln has been running the same schedule for 4 years. LOL :rolleyes:

My only saving grace here is that I have a heavy brick kiln and the ramp from the 877 that I was using to the 830 I should have been using is REALLY slow anyway. Probably the same speed you use as your general ramp down to strain. So, I don't think I was hurting anything...I just would like to have my information right, and my kiln programmed correctly.

And I guess I could ask you...why are you ramping at the same speed all the way from annealing point to 200+ degrees below strain? Don't you think your ramp down from annealing temp to strain point should be slower than breezing right on past the strain point and on to 600? Where did you get 600? I don't mean I think you should have a soak at strain point for a while...that never made any sense to me either. Just that if you want to make your schedule faster...after the strain point is when to do it. And I hope you don't get testy because I"m asking...I didn't get testy with you. LOL

Although I too use 600 as my next marker in my kiln schedule. It goes from annealing temp to 877 (idiot) then a little faster down to 600, then it goes almost naturally down to room temperature. I have the ramp rate set pretty fast once it hits 600 but I don't just let it free fall because my studio is outdoors and unless I'm out there working...it isn't heated. Sometimes it is below 0 out there so I let the controller stay in charge all the way down to 200...then it can float down. The coldest my kiln has ever been in the morning was 52.

That was probably way too much information muddying the waters, but if we are letting it all hang out..there is mine. LOL

This would all be a lot easier if there wasn't so much conflicting information out there...and from people who SHOULD be able to agree on a number.

~~Mary

[Moth]

Ok, well that mystery is solved. Just went out to adjust my kiln controller.

When I purchased my kiln, it was used...by a beadmaker. She sent a sheet of paper with it, that I stapled to the manual because it had written in plain english how to program the fuji controller and was a lot easier to understand than the instruction manual.

She has written in the margins- strain point 877

I don't even know who this lady was, her name isn't anywhere and it's been too long for me to ever remember that, but being so new, I just took her word for it and used her numbers.

Lesson here: always check your information. :idea:

~~Mary

[KEW]

Mary, LOL, I can't believe the info you pulled out since last night! Don't remember where I got the 820. I'm sorry I upset you in any way and I agree with you on the people who garage on a lower temp then go up. It's not like they can restrike the beads.

My kiln came preprogrammed from Arrow Springs. It annealed at 940 which seemed a little low to me when most things I had read at that time gave 968 for the annealing temp. So I switched the 940 with 965 (since all degrees are generally given as approximates) and since I hadn't had any cracking, kept the same ramp down. As I said, the only cracking I have ever had was user error (thermal) and one for incompatiblity (I really covered some 104 with some lead frit) and one batch of Zoozii's smallest pillows made with 3/32 mandrels (they didn't crack until I was reaming them). The beads ramp down in minutes from ?1600? degrees to 965 (just another puzzling problem, why don't they crack in the time it takes to get to the garaging temp?).

Anyway, I'm sorry I upset you. Clearly, everyone's schedules are influenced by the myriad of opinions out there. I guess I'm just a 'simple' person. lol

Karen

[MaryBeth]

Mary - I just wanted to say I use the Vetrofond super clear for most of my 104 silver applications. The silver will stay silver with it. (Regular Moretti is fine for this also - use the factory made stringers they are "cleaner" than the rods.)

However, if you want the silver to stay silver don't use the regular Vetrofond clear - it will discolor the silver to that icky greenish gold color!

Also - I'm pretty positive your fine silver is fine silver - it would have turned black in the flame otherwise - so that is not a factor here.

Your slow ramp down is fine. My slow ramp down eliminated about 99% of cracking problems I was experiencing with silver, Lauscha and Czech glass.

Nothing like more information to drive you nuts:evil:

[Shawn T]

Mary I hope you have solved your problem with your beads cracking.

I just wanted to say that I have read this whole thread and find it full of so much valuable information.

Thank you to all who have posted in it to help and Mary thank you for all your research.

Not only with the silver but the annealing temps that seem to vary so much from site to site and person to person.
I agree the only ones that make no since to me is people who garage no and than raise their temp I wonder if there is a chemical reason for this. In 7 years I have never understood this one. I do with boro but not with soft glass. Unless your not striking colors in the flame.

[Starrr]

Mary, glad to see your at least figuring some of this out. I should have been more specfic when I mentioned your silver. I didn't mean that you should try another silver wire because yours wasn't fine silver, I meant you just might have got a hold of some crappy fine silver.

It's not unusual for silver wire or components to vary. I've seen it more than once and am in a situation right now with a vendor whose silver turned a bright red copper, uhmmm yeah, silver turning to copper.

Sorry I didn't explain better the first time.

Edie

[Moth]

Usually I'm all too happy to NOT work on Sundays, but today is a stay at home Sunday and it is killing me not to go torching. LOL...but it is my only real day off and if I don't take it, I'll be sorry next week.

I have adjusted my kiln schedule to reflect the lower strain temp of 820. The rest I left the same. And if I sounded upset in my post, it is because I AM upset. LOL I'm not upset at anyone here though, I'm upset with myself. Not only for using the wrong strain temp for the last 4 years, but also because I've passed it on to others. I had to go over to WC, where I haven't posted in almost a year, and do a search for old posts of mine where I quoted a strain point...then I had to post in all those threads a message about how the strain point I recommended was way too high...that 830 is a safer number to use. Then, I had to edit all my posts here on LE that quote an 877 strain point and change it to 830 so anyone coming along and reading them won't use bad numbers like I did. I tell ya what...that took a long time. LOL

I'm actually GRATEFUL to you Karen. If you hadn't said anything about it, it could have been another few years before anyone did. I am surprised that nobody has called me on it before. I don't expect it to fix my cracking problems with these beads...but I do feel better knowing that my numbers are right now.

Shawn, thanks sweetie. Can't wait to see ya in a few weeks.

Mary Beth, that's great, I have plenty to use. I'm going to pull it down into a usable size, all my rods are huge. I like them that way though because I can strip the crap off the outside, and when I pull them down they are perfectly clear. My vetrofond super clear rods came with big grooves spiraling down on one side. I was a bit disappointed to tell the truth. You pay for something called super clear and there are grooves down the side. However, they strip right off and the clear is REALLY clear. I tried just melting the grooves and they scum up so I strip them off. I don't mind doing it.

Thanks again, you've been GREAT.

Edie, I knew what you meant and thanks for bringing it up. My reply about the silver being fine or sterling was meant for Karen because she didn't know how I could tell whether it is fine silver or not.

Thanks all of you. I am still disappointed that the ink blue one cracked with the silver in it...but I'm not giving up. There ar still lots of avenues to take.

Have a nice Sunday afternoon!
~~Mary

[Moth]

Finally a glimmer of hope!

I made one that didn't crack!!!

I only had a couple hours to torch last night and I didn't spend any of it pulling down fat rods of clear. I simply didn't encase the organic base to the bead. I just mashed it into a tab and applied the silver and dots. No cracking at all and the bead appears stable. It is ugly as sin because I'm basically tired of artsy-fartsying it all up only to find it cracked in the kiln. This one is fugly. So since there is no chance of ever listing it for sale, I've spent the morning abusing it. Whacking it up against the countertop. Running it under hot water, then sticking it in the freezer. I wouldn't do this with beads I intended to sell but as a sacrificial bead...no problem. So far it hasn't revolted so I'm thinking it was the combination of lauscha clear and surface silver that was causing my problems. This bead has no lauscha in it at all. Just striking red, some silver frit, the silver and the dots. It would be prettier if I had encased it, but pretty is as pretty does...at least this ugly duckling isn't cracked.

Tonight I will have 7 hours of torch time and I intend on using them. :koolaid: Next mission: try encasing the base using vetro super clear and another with effetre without having any funny business going on in the base beads.

Thanks for all your help guys.

~~Mary

[JavaGirlBT]

The reason some people garage at a lower temp is to avoid any potential slumping from staying at a high temp too long. Vince explained this very well over on the ISGB site at one point. 950 is a mean temp for annealing - some colors anneal as low as 920. So to avoid any possible slumping from being inside a hot kiln all day - perhaps as long as 8 - 10 hours while someone works or from a possibly inaccurate pyrometer, they garage at a lower temp, ramp up to annealing for the soak period then ramp back down. I think it's probably people being overly cautious, but it doesn't harm the beads so why not.

[Moth]

Finally...someone who makes some sense of that issue. Thanks Ellen. Nobody I've ever asked before had a decent answer. The best guess I could come up with is people who use a lot of rubino or other heat sensitive colors that don't like to soak at high temps for hours and hours. I didn't realize some glass colors could slump at annealing temps if left a long time. I've never heard of that happening to anyone.

Thanks again.
~~Mary

I just pulled down a whole rod of fat vetro super clear. Came in to take a break then I'm making a few test beads. Then I'm going to make some frogs with the Messy glass colors. I haven't tried them yet! I'm excited.

edited to add:

Well I made two more. I made one out of all 96 coe colors and another out of all effetre with vetro super clear encasement. It is pretty and I really hope it makes it.

[MaryBeth]

I'm glad to hear that you are making progress!

Don't know when I'll be able to check in again - I'm in a class with Loren Stump through Sunday night - so my Internet time is going to be somewhat limited - probably nonexistent:-D

I'll try to find this next Monday and see how you did!

[Moth]

Don't know when I'll be able to check in again - I'm in a class with Loren Stump through Sunday night -

Oh wow...have a great time and learn up good. :waving:

Actually, another success story! Both of the ones I made last night survived crack-free. Yay!

~~Mary

[Gardengirl]

One more thing - Lauscha is picky about silver - but I do use a lot of silver with the Lauscha glassdaddy purple and the Lauscha transparent olive green with no problems.

I've found this same thing - that the clear doesn't like the silver so much. The only times I've had problems with incompatibility with Lauscha clear is
when I've used heavy silver foil underneath it. Cracks almost every single time.....
wonder if that's the problem.
Hope you figure it out - I sure would be interested to know too!

[Moth]

I can't stand it!!

I have to post a picture of one that actually survived!

Good news...no cracks. Bad news: I'm outta silver wire. Bwahahahahaha!! That's just hilarious to me.

~~Mary
43908

[Laurie L]

Mary your bead is exquisite. I have been wanting to play with fine silver on beads for a while now. I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks.

[MaryBeth]

Nice bead, Mary!

Looks like you resolved your cracking issues8)