Help with my torch is it the torch or oxycon (National 8m)

[bead crazy]

OK I finally got to light my torch. It is having issues not sure what it is. OK first it is a National with a sm7 tip. I have a oxycon that I bought used. I lit the torch and all I could get out of it that was neutral is a fine point. (I have a flame kit from glass Alcemey) Is it my concentrator or the torch? Also when I shut down the torch there was alot of carbon (little points sticking out of the end of the torch head). I could not get a large flame out of it at all. I had the oxycon set on 5 psi and the propane was on 3 psi. What am I doing wrong? It just seemed like I did not have enough O2. Also is the National suppose to have yellow tips on the candles? It got the pin point flame that I had hoped for but not the rest. I would appreciate any help anyone can give me.
Thanks Lori

[Humble newbie]

I'm looking forward to your replies. I have the same torch I just got off of Ebay last week. I'm also getting the carbon bits that I keep knocking off with a mandrell. I do get the loops from the ports but they are fuzzy on the end away from the torch. My o2 is 3-5 and propane 1-3. I've taken the tip off and held it to the light and can see it thorough all of the ports just fine.

[ZingZ!]

Hey guys -

We use and sell Nationals here in the store and I've been one of the factory's distributors for almost 5 years so I've got some technical experience working with the factory so I hope that I can give you some help.

After a recent technical discussion, here is the optimum setting straight from the technical guys at the factory for using the 8M with the SM-7 tip. It is NOT the typical 2:1 ratio that is commonly accepted as being the correct setting. You need to have 10 psi coming from your concentrator and your propane set at 2 psi (for a National regulator, the first mark). You can set your concentrator at 5 lpm but it is the psi that it's pumping that is important. You will then run your oxygen valve on the torch full open and your propane valve needs to be open enough to allow FLOW! If your handles are getting hot, you don't have enough FLOW! Turn up your propane valve ON THE TORCH (keep the tank pressure down - turn up the handle on the torch).

I suspect that your problem is that you don't have enough psi coming from your concentrator. If you have a medical equipment provider somewhere close, they may be able to hook up your concentrator to the gauges and see what you're getting. We have a flow meter here and we check the purity, flow, and psi regularly on our concentrators. Sounds like you have a concentrator that isn't going to have enough umph to run on its own. You may very well have to pick up another 5 lpm concentrator and run them together to get your psi up where it should be.

Hope this helps. Don't hesitate to pm me if you have any more questions.

Marilynn Brandriff
ZingZ! Art Glass

[bead crazy]

Thank you so much Marilynn,
I guess I will be looking on ebay for another concentrator. Does anyone have any recommendations I wish I could afford Justins concentrator? I called around looking for a medical equiptment provider when I tried to buy one locally.
Lori

[Humble newbie]

Thanks Marilynn. Will it hurt anything to keep running until I can get another concentrator? What are the handles that get hot, is it the on/off knobs? I'm making decent beads for once so hate to slow down now....
Lori, maybe a nursing home for the concentrator. I've about decided that I'm not going to find one in a thrift store.
Thanks again!
Teresa

[Dale M.]

Typically medical concentrators run 7-9 psi in pressure with about 95% oxy output at 4.5 to 5 LPM....

Run oxygen valve full open on torch and control flame with propane (fuel) valve...

Candles should have 1/4 to 1/8th yellow tips when "dialed in"....

The on/off flow control (oxy and fuel) knobs are what get hot with to little "flow"..

If there is carbon build up on face just use mandrel and knock it off between beads....

I ran a M8 with SM7 tip on one concentrator and a 1/4psi propane (BBQ pancake regulator) and torch did just fine.... Thought second concentrator would improve performance...

Dale

[bhhco]

We have a flow meter here and we check the purity, flow, and psi regularly on our concentrators. Marilynn Brandriff
ZingZ! Art Glass

What brand/model of purity, flow, and psi test equipment do you use and recommend?

Me

[bead crazy]

We have a flow meter here and we check the purity, flow, and psi regularly on our concentrators

Who sell these?
Thanks for your help guys. I think my concentrator is not any good. I am just not getting any pressure out of the O2 of I open it up all the way I can still only get a pin point flame if I try to get a neutral one I can get a bigger flame but it is a reducing flame.
Thanks Lori

[ZingZ!]

Lori:

What brand is your concentrator? Most of them have a foam filter that needs to be washed once a week. Also, if your concentrator has a back panel that comes off, there may be another foam filter or a paper filter in a plastic case. Check to see about filters. If you do have a local medical equipment provider, call them to see if they can service your unit. Of course, you will probably get the run-around that is common because of the medical usage but sometimes they can service one for hobby use (depending on what state you're in and the regulations they have to go by).

Yes, it is the handles on the torch that get hot. That is a definite indication that you don't have enough FLOW. If you are running the oxygen valve on the torch full open, then the only option that you have is to reduce the pressure on the propane tank regulator and opening up the propane valve on the torch. If you have to decrease the pressure on the tank down to 1/4 (which is fine because the National 8M is actually a low pressure torch), then you can increase the FLOW to a point that it will probably work even with a concentrator pumping at a lower psi.

If you have carbon accumulation at the tip, then you still have too much propane in your mix AT THE TIP. Increasing your flow adjustment causes the flame to mix on out past the torch head - keeps the torch cooler and produces less carbon.

Sorry guys - but the flow meter that we have came from a contact at a medical equipment provider and costs about the same as a new concentrator. The one that I have isn't available to the general public. Surely there are some other ones out there that work - but I'm not familiar with them. Anybody know where to get a reasonably priced one?

Marilynn Brandriff

[bead crazy]

I will have my husband check the filters and stuff. The brand of concentrator I have is a Devilbiss MC 44-90. I am sure that it is all plugged up it had sat in someones garage for along time and is a old one the one with the green christmas tree that does not come off. I will call around to a O2 company and see if they service them. If I knew what to do my husband is a Vending Tech and can fix anything so if you can give me tips on the things he needs to check then he can do it and I can maybe order parts from Justin or you if you sell them. I am also looking at just buying another one and using this one as a booster and put a Y connector and have 2 then I won't have any problems with enough O2. Can you tell me who has those connectors? Also I have looked on Ebay and there is 2 companies that have cheap enough concentrators they are Hobbieforus and Preciseconcepts they both have some that have a warranty of some kind. I wish I could afford to buy one from Justin with everything I have heard about his service he sounds like the place to go I just can't spend that much. All the other companies on ebay sell As-is and that makes me leary what if it is DOA then I am stuck with another concentrator that does not work. Lucky enought I only payed $50 for the one I have so I am not to mad it will for sure work as a booster.

Thanks for all the help
Lori

[Humble newbie]

Hello again Dale and Marilyn. I may still be doing the adjusments wrong and will check again tomorow. Turned up the concentrator all of the way, opened the propane tank all of the way and lowered the regulator presure to 1-2 psi (firewerks reg). Opened oxy torch knob up all the way and a bit on the propane. Scared me! Very noisy! At one point during the fiddling it looked
like a big gap between torch and flame with no candles. Got candles again at the new tank and concentrator settings with no noise but it was a very pinpoint kind of flame. I've only seen candles on a minor before and remember them looking like bright upside down u's. These come up and are all joined together looking like tiny candle tips,fuzzy ring at the top. Is this a national thing or torch operator? Only my o2 torch knob got warm during the test fiddling. Did get a bit of carbon on the tip again. Thanks for your guidance and patience. I've not been doing this very long.
Teresa

[bead crazy]

I know what you mean Teresa I have used several other torches but not this one I probibly should go get a O2 tank and see if there is a difference then that would tell me if the problem was the concentrator, torch or me.
Lori

[Dale M.]

Hello again Dale and Marilyn. I may still be doing the adjusments wrong and will check again tomorow. Turned up the concentrator all of the way, opened the propane tank all of the way and lowered the regulator presure to 1-2 psi (firewerks reg). Opened oxy torch knob up all the way and a bit on the propane. Scared me! Very noisy! At one point during the fiddling it looked
like a big gap between torch and flame with no candles. Got candles again at the new tank and concentrator settings with no noise but it was a very pinpoint kind of flame. I've only seen candles on a minor before and remember them looking like bright upside down u's. These come up and are all joined together looking like tiny candle tips,fuzzy ring at the top. Is this a national thing or torch operator? Only my o2 torch knob got warm during the test fiddling. Did get a bit of carbon on the tip again. Thanks for your guidance and patience. I've not been doing this very long.
Teresa


What is pin point flame???...... How long are candles how long is total flame???...

If you are looking for big bushy flame like on HH you are looking for wrong type of flame....


Though this is a picture if a Minor torch, your National should be producing a flame very similar....

20016
(image courtsy of Cosmo)

Dale

[ZingZ!]

Here's a pic of the 8M with the SM-7 Tip. This is the flame that you get with the reduced propane tank pressure and increased flow.

Marilynn Brandriff

[bead crazy]

The flame is very short and pointed it is not even wide enough to make a small bead in. I have the flow on the O2 all the way up and the propane is down lower. I have never used a HH so have no clue what that kind of flame is. But I have used a Mini CC and a bobcat and it is not even close to them right now. Thanks for the pictures it gives me a better understanding what I am looking for. Marilynn can we get a little closer shot of this picture. Now with the National should it have slight yellow caps on the candles like the minor? I know the Bobcat does not have caps on the candles and the Mini has larger ones. But when I tested the flame with the boro rod I have it was for sure reducing when I finally got a neutral flame it was only 4 inches long.
Thanks for the help everyone
Lori

[Humble newbie]

Thanks Dale and Marilyn. I am feeling much better about what I have after seening your pics. My candles are not quite as sharp, especially at the
tip but are not bad. Good to know that I'm not looking for that bushy flame.
I see nationals have all kind of tips. Would there be a need for me to have any others and if so, what would be the next one I should get?
Thanks!

[ZingZ!]

Here's a pic closer. You should be able to get a flame like this with the adjustments to increase your "flow". Another thing that I would suggest that you check is to make sure that your hose to your concentrator doesn't have any bits or pieces that may have broke off the fitting. Also, you don't have a check valve on your oxygen line by any chance?

Marilynn

[bead crazy]

I don't think I have a check valve What is it? Thanks Marilynn the closer picture really helps I at least know that I am not close to that yet. I think I am just going to have to get another concentrator.
Lori

[bead crazy]

Hey I have another question about the National. How does it work on NG. I am thinking of doing NG so I either need to pipe in the gas or propane and out fireplace was only $150 and there was alot more area to plumb in.
Thanks Lori

[Dale M.]

One thing about 8M flame here.... Its fuel flows from the slots in torch face.... It will not have same type of candle pattern as a Minor or Bobcat or and other torch that have a port within a port design ( fuel port surrounded by oxygen). So candle shape will be quite different...

A 8M with SM5 or SM7 tip will work on low-pressure fuel (NG) I had a 8M here a while that I was using on a pancake regulator (BBQ tank style) that only produced about 1/4 psi of pressure and it worked fine... Oxygen was also supplied by oxy con.... Not it is not a big raging flame as using 5psi of propane and 15 psi of tanked oxy, but quite acceptable for small it intermediate size beads...

Dale