My flame won't stay at a consistent setting!

[Solana]

Okay, I've had my in-home studio set up for about a year and am going crazy while making beads. Here's my issue: I sit down to start making beads, and my flame is perfect. However, after about 2 hours of torching, my flame begins to fluctuate A LOT. It'll go from normal to an extreme reducing flame and then switch to an extreme oxidizing flame. I'm worried that this is going to screw up my torch, and I have not clue what to do.

It also makes it VERY difficult to do stringer work. I've lost several great beads to the flame tripling in size and blowing my stringer all over the place. ](*,)

Anyway, I have a minor torch and use an oxygen concentrator and propane. I have all the necessary accessories for the set up including a propane flashback arrestor and regulator. I always warm up the oxycon before torching, and it gets a consistent 4.5 - 5.0 LPM. I'm not sure if the problem is my regulator, torch or oxycon. Also, I doubt I'm running out of propane since the last time that happened to me, my flame kept getting smaller and smaller, and I finally gave up.

So, does anyone have any ideas? I'm really at a loss.

Thanks!

[ElizabethCreations]

I was wrong on that one !! ](*,)

[Julabula]

I had this problem about 6 mos. ago....and I am REALLY embarassed to admit this, but here goes...turns out I was not turning my tanks off properly, not depressurizing them (it's a wonder I didn't kill myself), and not bleeding my lines. I ruined the diaphragm in my regulators and had to replace them. I was instructed in a class to "just turn off the tanks." Niiice......anyway, mine was my regulators. Thankfully, my welding supplier always gives me about 25% off everything, so that made a big difference!!!

~ Jules

[MikeAurelius]

Turn the pressure UP on the regulator.

It may be that you have a high pressure fuel gas regulator. I've seen "some" distributor companies that ship out 60 or even 120 PSI fuel gas regulators for torches that only need a maximum of 5 PSI.

I'm assuming you are trying to set about 5 psi or so, correct? If so, and your regulator has a full range of 60 or higher, you are trying to set a pressure for which the regulator isn't calibrated for. Regulators are designed to work in a pressure range that is usually in the middle of its range. For example: a 0-60 PSI regulator is going to be most accurate in the 20 to 40 PSI range, less accurate from 10 to 20 and 40 to 50, and very inaccurate from 0 to 10 and 50 to 60 psi.

I've discussed this issue with Peter from Nortel, and his very simple answer is to set the regulator pressure higher, and control the flow of propane with the valve on the torch.

Try setting the pressure at 10 and see if that works, 15 if it doesn't and so on.

Failing this, try to get a propane/fuel gas regulator that runs in the 0 to 15 PSI range.

[Solana]

Thanks for the information guys! I do have a regulator that goes much higher than 15 PSI, I believe it is a 120 PSI regulator. I've been setting it between 10 and 20 PSI because I read in Kervin's book that you should set your regulator higher since you control the pressure at the torch. Anyway, I'll try setting it even higher to see if that helps.

Jules - I'm embarassed to ask...what does bleeding your lines mean? When I'm done torching, I turn of the oxygen first, then the concentrator. Then, I turn off the propane but leave the torch on to burn the fuel that's still in the line. Once I turn the torch off, then I turn off my regulator. Could what I'm doing be considered "bleeding" my propane line?

Thanks again everyone!

[MikeAurelius]

Thanks for the information guys! I do have a regulator that goes much higher than 15 PSI, I believe it is a 120 PSI regulator.

AAARRRGGGHHHH! WHY do the distributors DO THIS?

Let me suggest you spend some money, visit your local welding shop and buy a low pressure fuel gas regulator.

It will run about $75 or more, but it will be worth it in the long run. You will be able to set an ACCURATE pressure of 5 PSI, and because it is in the settable range of the regulator, you will have a lot more success than you are having right now.

[Solana]

Hmmm....I may have to do that. When I was setting up my studio, I didn't know there were different types of regulators out there with different settings. I just had my local glass bead shop order me one. Call me naïve, I guess.

Anyway, as soon as I get some funds, I'll look into getting a regulator with a lower PSI range. In the meantime, I guess I'll just set my regulator at 30 or 40 PSI and will see if that helps at all.

Thanks again!

[Dale M.]

Hmmm....I may have to do that. When I was setting up my studio, I didn't know there were different types of regulators out there with different settings. I just had my local glass bead shop order me one. Call me naïve, I guess.

Anyway, as soon as I get some funds, I'll look into getting a regulator with a lower PSI range. In the meantime, I guess I'll just set my regulator at 30 or 40 PSI and will see if that helps at all.

Thanks again!

Nah... You are not naïve.... Your glass supplier is just not "informed"...

Get quality low pressure regulator, maybe double stage (quite a bit more expensive)...

You fuel pressure by accepted ratio should be about half the pressure of you oxygen, since you are on oxycon, your oxy pressure is most likely in 7-8 psi range. so your fuel pressure should be in 3-4 psi range. A better quality LOW pressure regulator can help you in this situation...

Another consideration is a fixed pressure regulator ( appliance or BBQ), the usually are about 1/4 to 1/2 psi but do supply a stable supply/pressure for your fuel. Oh yes it will work.... It will be about equal to running minor torch on natural gas (NG) at residential supply pressure.

Dale


Dale

[MikeAurelius]

I wish the distributors would understand this issue -- it causes more "grief" for lampworkers than just about anything else. I talked to Mike Frantz about it one time, and he basically just shrugged.

If you do purchase a new one, here's what I'd suggest: get a fuel gas regulator that has a max dial pressure of 30 PSI. Most of that will be "red lined", and the settable range should show 0 to 15 PSI.

A similar issue also happens with oxygen regulators. Again, the distributors always seem to ship the high pressure ones, when the glassworker only needs a maximum of 20-30 PSI, a 60 PSI regulator is sufficient, and they get a 250 PSI regulator.

It just doesn't make sense.

I talked about this to the guys at my local welding shop and they looked at me like I was nuts. Then I explained to them we only use low pressure oxygen, we aren't cutting 3" thick steel - and then they understood. Of course, they had to special order the regulators I needed, but once they saw the problem, that of setting a pressure that is on the bottom end of the regulators capacity, it was a no-brainer.

Anyway, sorry for the rant!

[creatifcrafts]

I have had this trouble since buying my bobcat over 18 months ago - I find that I can't regulate the propane knob - it won't stay put and trying to regulate it while trying to turn a bead is a pain to say the least - I had a Nortel mid-range before - and wanted something I could control for smaller work. I spend a large part of my time at the torch trying to recapture the flame [so to speak!] - I thought perhaps that it was the bobcat at fault. I think I'll try bleeding the tubes a bit more, but usually do this quite thoroughly. I use an oxygen generator with the bobcat and the propane sits outside the studio and is piped in to the torch. Has anyone else had this problem with this torch? or with any torch that they've found a solution for?

[MikeAurelius]

On GTT torches, the issue is something different. GTT uses teflon seats for their valves, and if you crank them tight, they compress, then, when using the torch, the seat gradually expands, cutting down the amount of gas flowing through the valve.

If you are cranking your valves tight - stop! The valves only need to be finger tight.

Maybe W&W will (one of these days) put this information in a little note inside each torch they sell.

[Solana]

Hello! I just did a search on Frantz Art to see if they carried low-pressure regulators and found this one:

http://www.frantzartglass.com/Itemdesc.asp?CartId={FD11519B-ADEE-4EA9-B851-6CC46D47338EVEREST4}&ic=117221&eq=&Tp=

The PSI gauge reads 0-15 PSI, and it red-lines on its way to 30 PSI. Do you guys think this one will do, or is it a little too "cheap"? I paid $75 for my current regulator, so this one is a little lower-priced.

Thanks!

[CLabora]

This happened to me too - the problem with me was that I ruined the diaphragm in the regulator.

How did I do this you ask, well simple. I never adjusted the flow valve in the regulator - it was always left open, so when I would turn the gas on, the full pressure in the tank would force the gas through the diaphragm in the regulator and ruined it.

So it is not an issue about draining the gas lines, it is about turning off the regulator valve so that when you turn on the tank valve the diaphragm in the regulator is protected.

So the steps, when starting - make sure the valve in the regulator is not allowing any gas to go through to the torch. Turn on the valve in the tank, then turn on the valve in the regulator to the correct pressure, then light up the torch - may need to adjust the pressure in the regulator valve after the torch is on.

when you are finished torching turn gas at torch off, turn valve at tank off.
Go to torch and light torch up as to use all remaining gas in the line. When the flame goes out - no more propane in line - go to the valve in the regulator and turn it off to zero (0). Then you are done.

Hope this makes sense. Arrowsprings sells the regulators and they are VERY helpfull in explaining all procedures.

[BillBrach]

SirWatson,

A much cheaper solution than buying a new regulator is what Dale suggested.

For about $15-20, you can buy a replacement regulator for a BBQ grille at places like Lowes or Home Depot. Install this thing in line with your propane hose and then set your existing tank regulator at 30-40 PSI. You will have to remove the fitting that goes into the BBQ tank, and replace this with a hose barb thats the right size for your hose. The hose barbs can be bought at the same places. It will be threaded on one side to screw into the regulator where the BBQ tank fitting was and have the hose barb on the other side.

You now have a two stage regulator. This technique has totally eliminated this problem for me.
Bill

[MikeAurelius]

Your link doesn't work, but you are describing the proper regulator.

Personally, I'd stay away from bbq regulators myself -- they are usually a fixed pressure that cannot be adjusted, and if you ever want to play with boro or work larger pieces, it helps greatly to be able to adjust your pressures.

Most of the bbq regulators I've seen are set at 1/4 to 1/2 pound, which is unsuitable for propane on a minor. It will work, but you won't have the heat or the depth of penetration of heat that you would normally have with higher pressure.


Hello! I just did a search on Frantz Art to see if they carried low-pressure regulators and found this one:

http://www.frantzartglass.com/Itemdesc.asp?CartId={FD11519B-ADEE-4EA9-B851-6CC46D47338EVEREST4}&ic=117221&eq=&Tp=

The PSI gauge reads 0-15 PSI, and it red-lines on its way to 30 PSI. Do you guys think this one will do, or is it a little too "cheap"? I paid $75 for my current regulator, so this one is a little lower-priced.

Thanks!

[BillBrach]

More BS perpetuation...

My GTT Lynx works boro JUST FINE on a BBQ regulator.

I CHALLENGE you to prove this DOESN'T work !!

[Solana]

Oh...sorry about the link! I tested it several times before posting. Go figure.

Anyway, I was wondering about the BBQ regulators as I like being able to control the propane at the torch for reducing purposes and eventually to work with harder glass.

What I'll probably do is in the near future, purchase the new regulator and give that a go. If that doesn't work, then I'll try a BBQ regulator to see if that helps at all.

Thanks again everyone for all of your wonderful suggestions and tips! I really appreciate it!

[Nanette Marie]

I had the same problem, my torch "breathed." I use a Mini CC and I just turned up the propane pressure at the regulator and now it works fine. I was trying to work with it at 2-3 since I work with an OxyCon too, but now I set it at around 7-10. I do have a regular that only goes to 30 since I got it at Arrow Springs.

[Julabula]

Karla:

I was told that when I turn off my 02/propane tanks, then open the propane valve back up on the torch, light it, and open the 02 valve on the torch as well, and wait until all the excess gas in the lines is burned off, then turn the torch knobs back off, and relax your T-valves in the regulators so they're not kept pressurized. That's "bleeding" the lines....(similar to bleeding brake lines in a race car).

[Solana]

Thanks Nanette and Julie for the information! I'm glad to hear that I HAVE been correctly bleeding my lines without evening knowing it! :) I don't like leaving the hoses pressurized so I always burn out the excess fuel and then release the t-bar on the regulator.

I'm thinking I need to get a low-pressure fuel regulator has a max psi of 120. Keeping it at 10 psi may be too low.

[Dale M.]

Ease off Mike...

I ran a National 8M with SM7 tip and one oxycon with propane and fixed regulator (BBQ/RV style)... Its no different than running torch on residential natural gas pressure....

Some fixed regulators are sealed (metal cap crimped over adjustment screw), some are adjustable (plastic plug over screw)....

2898

James Kervin in "More Than You Ever Wanted To Know About Glass Beadmaking" gives procedure for modifying pressure setting of "fixed" regulator.

Dale

[Dale M.]

Oh...sorry about the link! I tested it several times before posting. Go figure.

Anyway, I was wondering about the BBQ regulators as I like being able to control the propane at the torch for reducing purposes and eventually to work with harder glass.

What I'll probably do is in the near future, purchase the new regulator and give that a go. If that doesn't work, then I'll try a BBQ regulator to see if that helps at all.

Thanks again everyone for all of your wonderful suggestions and tips! I really appreciate it!

Problem with Frantz site is that is a order/customer oriented site and it expires as one sees it when you bail out.... When somebody else comes along and tries to use link, it is no longer valid ....

Dale

[MikeAurelius]

they are usually a fixed pressure that cannot be adjusted

My original comment stands...

[lunesse]

Wow, my minor breathes too, I thought it was a "oxycon mesh not clean" thing but... wow. I'm fairly sure my reg goes over 30 too, I bought it from Arrow Springs last Fall. Grrr. Ok so...if I crank it up to 30 or so..., even with the oxycon at 5, it will all work out by adjusting at the minor?

car

[Dale M.]

Wow, my minor breathes too, I thought it was a "oxycon mesh not clean" thing but... wow. I'm fairly sure my reg goes over 30 too, I bought it from Arrow Springs last Fall. Grrr. Ok so...if I crank it up to 30 or so..., even with the oxycon at 5, it will all work out by adjusting at the minor?

car

IF your torch breathing IS NOT syncronized with the "change over" of sieve beds in oxycon, it may be one way to over come the problem.... Maybe not most acceptable but it probably will work.

Dale

[BillBrach]

And, if it is the Propane that is fluctuating, you will see little swings in the needle on the low pressure gauge on your regulator.

[lunesse]

I watched it last night, the lower gauge that I set to 5 does only go to 30, so I guess this is an ok regulator for what I'm trying to use it for.

Still, it breathed the whole time, three in a row, then nothing for minute, then it got real low so I knew it was going to burst out again, over and over. The needle did waver on the gauge. So...Huh. I'm not sure what to do now. If it goes to 30, and I'm keeping it on 5...that should be ok, yes? Should I try cranking it to 8 or 10 and see if anything is different? Remove and reattach the regulator for the heck of it? *Scratches head* It's a relatively fresh tank, I've used it maybe 5 times...but it breathed sometimes on my old tank so....

Hm.

[MikeAurelius]

Bump your pressure up to 10 and check it again.

If you saw the needle even quiver, that is pressure fluctuation in the regulator.

[creatifcrafts]

Thanks Mike for the info on the GTT torches - do you mean the knobs on the torch itself - these are only finger tight, in fact they seem to be quite 'loose' - i.e. there is a lot of play for very little adjustment to the flame - then it seems to be ALL ON or ALL OFF. They seem to be very temperamental. Otherwise I like the torch itself and if there is no cure I guess I can live with stopping to adjust every now and then [I think]
Cheers, Maureen
p.s. there seems to be a lot of people interested in this very topic of getting the flame right. Perhaps a kind of tutorial of 'how to' could be given on all the main torches. Torches are quite serious bits of equipment and we get delivery with very little info and usually no training if we havent been able to get a class that has that particular torch. We are very much on our own. What do you think?

[BillBrach]

Lunesse,

My 0 - 30 PSI propane regulator does EXACTLY the same thing that yours is doing. Thats why I added the in-line BBQ regulator. Now, I have my main regulator set at 15 PSI and the problem is permantely gone !!

I can sell you a $20 ADJUSTABLE BBQ regulator with the right fitting to modify your existing regulator to solve this problem. Email me if interested.

Bill

[MikeAurelius]

Maureen - when you shut of the flow of gas, on any of the two or three knobs, don't tighten them beyond finger tight. Tightening them when shutting off the flow of gas beyond finger tight only compresses the teflon seal.

Otherwise what you are describing does not sound right to me for the operation of any of the GTT valves. I'd suggest a PM to " Kbinkster ". She is the main contact back to Willy and Wally.


Thanks Mike for the info on the GTT torches - do you mean the knobs on the torch itself - these are only finger tight, in fact they seem to be quite 'loose' - i.e. there is a lot of play for very little adjustment to the flame - then it seems to be ALL ON or ALL OFF. They seem to be very temperamental. Otherwise I like the torch itself and if there is no cure I guess I can live with stopping to adjust every now and then [I think]
Cheers, Maureen
p.s. there seems to be a lot of people interested in this very topic of getting the flame right. Perhaps a kind of tutorial of 'how to' could be given on all the main torches. Torches are quite serious bits of equipment and we get delivery with very little info and usually no training if we havent been able to get a class that has that particular torch. We are very much on our own. What do you think?

[lunesse]

Lunesse,

My 0 - 30 PSI propane regulator does EXACTLY the same thing that yours is doing. Thats why I added the in-line BBQ regulator. Now, I have my main regulator set at 15 PSI and the problem is permantely gone !!

I can sell you a $20 ADJUSTABLE BBQ regulator with the right fitting to modify your existing regulator to solve this problem. Email me if interested.

Bill

Hey Bill... I will let you know. It doesn't always do it, tho since I changed tanks it has, so I am going to fiddle with it a little more first, trying some different things but I will remember your offer. =) Thanks! And thanks Mike, for more info to work with.