SS mandrels DO rust !!

[BillBrach]

I was 'doubted' in another thread (gone now, it was in the Bathroom) about stainless steel mandrels rusting.

They rust because after repeated uses, the Nickel in the SS burns out on the surface, leaving just the steel, that rusts easily. Maybe Dale will chime in, he knows the correct terminology for the Nickel burning out. Picture is of a 1/16" mandrel.

[Jacinthe]

yup I know they do
in fact i've ruined white beads by leaving them in my water jar too long

[Dale M.]

The only thing I ever wrote is "I think the darkening of stainless steel mandrels was the carbon migrating to surface". Still think its unusual for the metallurgy to change enough for mandrel to rust. Rust usually indicates high amount ferrous metals present (iron -steel). Quality stainless steel is not supposed to rust even though it does contain a fair amount of iron (ferrous metal) in its composition.

Think only deeply researched thing I wrote was for mandrel materials it does not matter if you use 304 or 308 or 316 (l or ls) grade welding rod because metallurgically the were for all practical glass purposes the same and the melting point of all there was about 1700f. Could not find the previous writings, must be on a forum I no longer [can] visit.

Dale

[MikeAurelius]

Vince from ISGB commented on this several weeks ago when discussing the magnetic properties of stainless steel. Certain low quality grades of stainless DO contain ferrous materials, and those are magnetic, and are suseptible to rusting.

[Moth]

Don't know how related of a topic this is, but I use stainless steel shot as tumbling media for polishing jewelry in a rotary tumbler and if you don't keep it covered with soapy water, it will rust.

The carbon steel is much much worse...it takes a little effort to get the stainless to rust, but it WILL do it with enough abuse, even though it never gets heated during the process.

~~Mary

[joycerenee]

Well, I don't know who has the quality mandrels. I've bought mandrels from numerous sources and they've all rusted after being used a while - and this occurs even though they are kept clean and dry when not in use.

They are, however, fairly easy to clean up with light sandpapering. They won't look like new again, but they can be used without rust migrating through the release. :)

Joy

[WhiskerWood]

I was the one complaining about mandrels...
My main complaint in that thread was that the mandrels I used were brand new mandrels, it was the first time I used the damn things!
Three beads I made stuck like nobody’s business even after I cleaned the mandrels in hot soapy water with a green rough scrubby before I used them...

I have no doubt older, much used SS mandrels rust…

[BillBrach]

For what its worth, here is the chemical composition for 308 and 316 stainless steel welding rod. The last number in each group is the amount of Iron. Notice that it comprises the bulk of the alloy. Most of the difference between 308 and 316 is that 316 has more Nickel, less Iron.

AWS E308L-15,16
Component Wt. %
C 0.03
Cr 19
Mn 1.8
Ni 9.7
Si 0.45
Fe (IRON) 69

AWS E316L-15,16
Component Wt. %
C 0.04
Cr 18.5
Mn 1.75
Mo 2.25
Ni 12.9
Si 0.5
Fe (IRON) 64.1

Dale, note (MSA)

[BillBrach]

Nicole,

Several people chimed in on that thread and said 'their mandrels never rust'. I knew this was BS, and posted to picture just to clarify things.

Bill

[KCDesigns]

yup I know they do
in fact i've ruined white beads by leaving them in my water jar too long

Oh I second that one!!!

Sarah - I found if you use a bathroom clearner that removes rust and or calcium, your beads are perfect once more just soak them in a bowl for a little while.
.....of course I went through many a white bead before I thought of that little trick.
;-)
Kim

[Julz]

I started one of those threads on TOB (the other board) because mine definitely rusted. I also figured out, with Tink's help, that I probably contaminated my release by rehydrating with our tap water that is very high in Fe. I wrecked some white ones, and clear beads and the rust just doesn't grind out very well. I am not even a soaker!

And thanks to your technical enough replies, I will be making my own mandrels from now on out of the best quality SS I can find, 316 and better. Too bad I don't have any Ti rods... that would be perfect for me! Hmmm, I'm going to look into that.

[BillBrach]

SS alloy 316 is about the best you can easily get.

And, I tried the Titanium rods used as electrodes in TIG welders. The don't work because they get VERY HOT very quickly where you hold them. SS, on the other hand, is a poor conductor of heat, so work well as mandrels because of this.

[Dale M.]

tried the Titanium rods used as electrodes in TIG welders

Huh?.... Don't you mean tungsten electrode for TIG welding....

Or did you mean titanium "filler rod" for TIG welding...

I use stainless steel welding filler rod exclusively (304L). I do know the source of my mandrel and that the quality of the material is controlled by welding industry and government standards. I have had some of my mandrels for several years (since I started glass work) and I have "yet" to experience any rust on them .

If people are having a problem with mandrels rusting I suggest you question supplier as to source of mandrels, its quite possible material for mandrels may be of poor quality or quality control rejects.

Dale

[BillBrach]

Dale,

1. Sorry, brain fart there...yes, I meant Tungsten, as in 'Tungsten Inert Gas', i.e. 'TIG' welding.

2. Some of my 'rusting' mandrels have the ends stamp-tagged as 'ER 308/308L'. Obviously, these are alloy 308.

3. I KNOW I've made WAY MORE beads on my mandrels than you have. Some approaching 150 beads off EACH mandrel.

Bill

[bumble_beads]

I've lost many a decent bead exactly as Sarah has... sitting in the water.

[Dale M.]

I've lost many a decent bead exactly as Sarah has... sitting in the water.

Why do they sit in water.... You can't drown beads....

Actually if you are having trouble removing the beads from mandrel, you need to get "Bills Bead Wrench" to hold bead, and a pair of pliers to hold mandrel...

Dale

[BillBrach]

Bill's Bead Wench has been supplanted by a pair of blue rubber gloves. I put one of them on my right hand, and use pliers to hold the mandrel. This turns out to be much faster and easier to use than the special wrench I designed and built to grip beads.

[Lisi]

yup I know they do
in fact i've ruined white beads by leaving them in my water jar too long

Sarah,

Luckily there is a solution (yep!) for that problem! First dremel or diamond file clean the holes out well and then you can soak them in this:

2 parts toilet bowl cleaner (I use Snobol) to 1 part water in a glass jar - String them up on a piece of fishing line with a knot tied on one end. Dip them in there and leave the other end of the line hanging out over the edge of the jar. (so your hands never have to touch the stuff) About 30 minutes should do it, and I found out recently that over an hour (I forgot them!) didn't hurt them at all. First rinse them under running water and then wash them with soapy water. This is also excellent for getting the reduction scum off of copper green and the turquoises.

If any of them still have a little rust in and around the holes, dremel clean and soak again. But once is usually all you will need. :)

[Lisi]

Why do they sit in water.... You can't drown beads....

Dale! LOL!! :shock: ;) :biggrin:

[Jacinthe]

Sarah,

Luckily there is a solution (yep!) for that problem! First dremel or diamond file clean the holes out well and then you can soak them in this:

2 parts toilet bowl cleaner (I use Snobol) to 1 part water in a glass jar - String them up on a piece of fishing line with a knot tied on one end. Dip them in there and leave the other end of the line hanging out over the edge of the jar. (so your hands never have to touch the stuff) About 30 minutes should do it, and I found out recently that over an hour (I forgot them!) didn't hurt them at all. First rinse them under running water and then wash them with soapy water. This is also excellent for getting the reduction scum off of copper green and the turquoises.

If any of them still have a little rust in and around the holes, dremel clean and soak again. But once is usually all you will need. :)
that would be so cool if I could get it here in holland
the stuff here for removing calcium and rust here in toilets DO NOT work on my beads. Neither does cola...
So either my glass is different (its moretti so I doubt that) or they don't make the cleaning solutions strong enough.... :razz:

My guess is the solutions, even the heavy duty stuff from my work that isn't in use anymore doesn't work...

[Dale M.]

Here is site that gives pretty comprehensive metallurgical make up of 308 & 316 type welding rods we use for mandrels.

http://www.techalloy.com/techalloy_data_sheets.htm

Dale

[Julz]

When I mentioned Ti mandrels, I meant aircraft grade Ti, pulled into wire/small rods. Ti manufacturing is (was) big in my family, so I thought this might be a good, though expensive, material for mandrels.

Here's a link: http://www.timet.com/fab-p30.htm
Wonder if they would sell me some wire...
**edited- I'll be looking into some Ti wire for mandrels. Anyone interested?