Studio set up ?'s

[Cracked Baubble]

I'm *planning* my studio LOL (it's keeping the itch of the glass at bay) and dh asked how much air I need to move through my studio? I think he's trying to figure out how big of a fan and what theelectrical needs for the whole studio will be.

Also, can you verify that the average kiln isn't going to draw more than 20 amps?

I read that it's best for safety to keep your O2 and Propane outside of your studio... does it matter how hot the outside temp gets? or how cold? or if they rest on dirt versus concrete?

I think that's it for now.... lol



edited title to better reflect discussion

[Dale M.]

The "standard" accepted theory for air flow/ventilation at this time is a ratio of 100cfm of air for every square foot of "face opening" of hood.

So If your hood opening is 2ft X 3ft your "face opening" of hood will be 6 square feet, that translate to about 600cfm of air flow (face velocity) required to properly ventilate studio. Also, you have to have opening into studio that will allow fresh air (make up air) to enter studio (open door or window) at least at same rate the fan/blower is drawing contaminated air out of hood.

Any quality kiln you are considering purchasing should have nomenclature plate on kiln stating what current kiln will draw in amps or watts.

Yes you want to keep ALL bulk propane tanks outside at all times. NFPA allows only 1 pound cylinders in a residence and a maximum of two at any given time. So make plans to keep propane tanks outside. Besides its just plain safer for them there.

Propane tanks sit outside in some of the coldest places and hottest places on this earth, so temperature in your areas should not be a issue... Sitting on dirt or cement is also not a issue, BUT a tank sitting up on a few dry bricks is better than a tank sitting in wet dirt (tank will not rust up as fast).

Dale

[Cracked Baubble]

Thanks Dale!
How do I determine how big my face opening *should* be? I mean I could have a 1x2 hood area and do the math so I know how much air is flowing through the room but I need to know how much is supposed to move through it to properly remove toxic air and replace it with fresh.

[Dale M.]

Thanks Dale!
How do I determine how big my face opening *should* be? I mean I could have a 1x2 hood area and do the math so I know how much air is flowing through the room but I need to know how much is supposed to move through it to properly remove toxic air and replace it with fresh.

Its the volume at the face... it guarantees a sufficient air flow past you.... I am not aware of a minimum or maximum face area value. Of course having a very small one may not have any practical purpose. I much favor the "fume hood" (some refer to it as a "Barley box") concept where you sit in front of a opening about 24x30 inches or so and you are sitting at the "face" of the hood.

If you have 1x2, then its 200cfm face velocity....

Of course if hood is six feet away from work area it does you no good... It should be over torch, if using just a overhead hood, it should be a few inches above you head as you are seated/standing (your preference) behind torch.

Dale

[ClassInGlass]

Hi, I am new to Lampwork Etc. I use natural gas in my studio which allows me to just use a regular fan to move the air. I have a torch booster that hooks up to my gas line (from G-tech) this allows my natural gas to run my torch hot enough. Then I use an oxygen concentrator that I bought on ebay...you will save alot of blood sweat and tears not to mention money in the long run using one of these. I feel this set up is much safer than the other but it is unconventional. If you like I could send you some pics of my set-up. Hope this helps. Tina

[ShawnLynn]

Hi, I am new to Lampwork Etc. I use natural gas in my studio which allows me to just use a regular fan to move the air. I have a torch booster that hooks up to my gas line (from G-tech) this allows my natural gas to run my torch hot enough. Then I use an oxygen concentrator that I bought on ebay...you will save alot of blood sweat and tears not to mention money in the long run using one of these. I feel this set up is much safer than the other but it is unconventional. If you like I could send you some pics of my set-up. Hope this helps. Tina
I would love to see your studio Tina!! Doing mine soon and would love the input....Loves~~Lynn

[ClassInGlass]

Lynn, I will posts some pics for you tomorrow...don't judge me on my clutter:) I can't seem to concentrate if everything is in order.

[MikeAurelius]

Actually, according to ACGIH, the requirements for air movement are 80 CFM per square foot IF you are running a bench or wall mounted hood, and 125 CFM per square foot if you have a ceiling mounted hood.

Don't "round" or average the numbers.

There's an article due out soon in a leading lampworking journal which will cover all the aspects of ventilation design for the glassworker. :wink:

[DawnT]

Hi, I am new to Lampwork Etc. I use natural gas in my studio which allows me to just use a regular fan to move the air. I have a torch booster that hooks up to my gas line (from G-tech) this allows my natural gas to run my torch hot enough. Then I use an oxygen concentrator that I bought on ebay...you will save alot of blood sweat and tears not to mention money in the long run using one of these. I feel this set up is much safer than the other but it is unconventional. If you like I could send you some pics of my set-up. Hope this helps. Tina

Tina,

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that since you use natural gas instead of propane you don't need a ventilation system other than a fan in your studio? I'm sure some of the technical gurus will jump in here but I've never seen anything that said you didn't need ventilation when you use natural gas. It's my understanding that the toxic fumes are from the metals in the glass melting (not to mention if you use frit, enamels, or fuming) and not some sort of propane fume. Please tekkie guys correct me here if I am wrong!

I too use natural gas and a concentrator although I don't use a gas booster (boy I wish I could afford one they are cool!) and my minor and mini cc run fine without one. I agree this setup is great because you have no tanks to secure and refill (you never run out of fuel halfway through a bead!) and natural gas itself is a bit safer than propane.

[Dale M.]

Hi, I am new to Lampwork Etc. I use natural gas in my studio which allows me to just use a regular fan to move the air.


I think if you do the research, you will find that just using a fan (natural gas or not) is not a acceptable form of ventilation... Thousands of words are written on why its necessary to have a more elaborate ventilation system than just a fan. You must evacuate contaminated air (combustion by-products out if your breathing space, and replace that "space" with fresh air, just using a fan to blow it around is not considered ventilation, it is merely contamination of every square foot of air space in your studio... It eventually will be come to a point where poor ventilation practices will manifest it self with health issues directly traceable back to your ventilation system.

Dale

[Dale M.]

Tina,

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that since you use natural gas instead of propane you don't need a ventilation system other than a fan in your studio? I'm sure some of the technical gurus will jump in here but I've never seen anything that said you didn't need ventilation when you use natural gas. It's my understanding that the toxic fumes are from the metals in the glass melting (not to mention if you use frit, enamels, or fuming) and not some sort of propane fume. Please tekkie guys correct me here if I am wrong!




You are not wrong.... The type of fuel does not determine what type ventilation systems you have. All fuels produce carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide gases. Also as you say, melting glass also causes heavy metals to be releases for the molten glass... A good hood and system to move required quantities of contaminated air from work area and evacuate that air to the outside is a must. And yes you must have sufficient "make up" air... For each cubic foot of contaminated air remove from studio space you need a cubic foot of clean make up air.

Dale

[ClassInGlass]

WOW...I created quite a stir...When I had my studio designed it already had a ventalilation system in the ceiling and the A/C guy that moved my gas line checked the air movement and said that if I needed anything else it would just be a fan. I have two large vents in the ceiling one being right above my work space. But I don't use frit or powders of any kind only the rods. But I am very shocked that the type of gas you use doesn't determine the type of ventilation you have because natural gas rises and disapears were propane produces carbon monoxide which collects on the floor and needs to be pulled out. This is the main reason I did the up front expense of natural gas...safer and money saving in the long run (at least that was before these crazy gas prices).

[MikeAurelius]

Ok - here's the issue, as has been mentioned before. Your "ventilation system" appears from your description to be nothing more than a heating/cooling system.

When you turn on your torch, you are generating a variety of combustion by-products, including, but not limited to carbon monoxide, various nitrogen oxides, etc. Additionally, you also the the rare earths and metals burning off in the flame from the glass. All of these things *must* be removed from the studio. The *only* way to do this is with a separate ventilation system, ducted outside. Fresh make up air is required as well - for every cubic foot of air exhausted, you need a cubic foot of clean fresh air replaced.

An air conditioning system (or heating system) is NOT a ventilation system for glassworking.

Your comment about the molecular weight of the relative gasses (propane versus natural gas) is irrelevant to the needs of removing combustion air.

Every device that burns with an open flame needs to be separately ventilated.

[DawnT]

WOW...I created quite a stir...When I had my studio designed it already had a ventalilation system in the ceiling and the A/C guy that moved my gas line checked the air movement and said that if I needed anything else it would just be a fan. I have two large vents in the ceiling one being right above my work space. But I don't use frit or powders of any kind only the rods. But I am very shocked that the type of gas you use doesn't determine the type of ventilation you have because natural gas rises and disapears were propane produces carbon monoxide which collects on the floor and needs to be pulled out. This is the main reason I did the up front expense of natural gas...safer and money saving in the long run (at least that was before these crazy gas prices).

I really didn't mean to jump on you or start anything. I just wanted to make sure that Cracked Bauble had all the correct safety information when setting up her studio :grin: .

[Cracked Baubble]

wow! Thank you everyone for your great input!

[Cracked Baubble]

Actually, according to ACGIH, the requirements for air movement are 80 CFM per square foot IF you are running a bench or wall mounted hood, and 125 CFM per square foot if you have a ceiling mounted hood.

Don't "round" or average the numbers.

There's an article due out soon in a leading lampworking journal which will cover all the aspects of ventilation design for the glassworker. :wink:
okay... so I have a 76 sqft room if I'm doing the math correctly you're saying I need 9500 CFM of air flow through the room for a ceiling mounted exhaust?
That seems like gusts of wind to me LOL
I'm hoping to use a window air conditioner in the summer months to cool the space but what few gave me CFM were less than 300

[MikeAurelius]

No. The amount of CFM is based on the HOOD measurement, not the size of the room.

You will have to construct a hood, let's say 2 foot by 4 foot. Thats 8 square feet. Multiply that by 80 CFM per square foot and you have 640 CFM.

A window air conditioner IS NOT a ventilator for torch working. It will not do the proper exhaust and fresh air exchange that is required for torch working.

As I wrote above, your torch working REQUIRES a separate ventilation system. You cannot use an in-place forced air heating/cooling system or a window air conditioner to ventilate your workstation. The combustion by-products from the torch, as well as the rare earth/metal vapors MUST be exhausted outside separately, and fresh outside air supplied to replace the exhausted air.

[Cracked Baubble]

yes, we're working out the actual ventilation system, but will a room air conditioner allow enough replacement air?
on the few ac's that have given the CFM spec they are less than 300cfm one was actually 305cfm but it was $600!
So my concern is the room air conditioner will not be able to blow enough air in to make up the amount of air leaving through the exhaust system...

sorry if I'm over thinking this I gotta do something while I wait to buy a torch LOL

[MikeAurelius]

No.

What they are talking about is air flow through the system. Window ACs pull room air through the cooling coils and dump the now cool air back into the room. Even with the so-called ventilator "open" you are not exchanging air.

You need a separately supplied fresh air intake. It needs to be a minimum of 10 linear feet from the exhaust duct. It can be an open window or door or a duct stuck through the wall, as long as it can provide an unimpeded free flow of air in the same amount as that being exhausted.

An 8" round duct can provide 350 CFM of fresh air without restriction. If you have a 650 CFM exhaust fan (from the example above), you would need either two 8" ducts or one 12" duct (based on free flow area, an 8" duct is 50 square inches, a 12" duct is 113 square inches).

[Cracked Baubble]

Thank you Mike that is exactely what I was looking for!!

So my next question... lol do you think with a vent on the opposite side of the room (my room is 11' long) or a screen door (I have bug issues) that moving enough air through the room will make the ac unnecessary? It just seems to me if your moving enough air that running an ac would be a bit wasteful

[MikeAurelius]

Well, that's part of the big problem with ventilation, when you have to start moving fairly large quantites of air, is keeping up with the heat/humidty issues.

One of the things that can be done to help alleviate part of the problem is to duct the fresh air into the workstation area, either from underneath, through a vent in the bench top, or from either side with vents along the bottom of the workstation side.

This will create a curtain of air and will only slightly affect the room air itself.

Being down south in OK, you do have some issues with heat (grin), and I can certainly understand the need for AC.

Up here in MN, we have both the heat/humidity in the summer (90+ with 70% humidity) and cold in the winter (below zero for days at a time). This was a big issue for me when I moved my studio to my new location. I brought in a separate fresh air duct and brought it directly underneath the workbench. Inside each hood for each workstation is a vent mounted to the benchtop, exactly like you'd find on a floor. This provides the fresh air. The exhaust system pulls it straight up and out, and the only place you can tell that fresh air is being brought in is right near the workstations.

[jokersdesign]

Well, that's part of the big problem with ventilation, when you have to start moving fairly large quantites of air, is keeping up with the heat/humidty issues.

One of the things that can be done to help alleviate part of the problem is to duct the fresh air into the workstation area, either from underneath, through a vent in the bench top, or from either side with vents along the bottom of the workstation side.

This will create a curtain of air and will only slightly affect the room air itself.

Being down south in OK, you do have some issues with heat (grin), and I can certainly understand the need for AC.

Up here in MN, we have both the heat/humidity in the summer (90+ with 70% humidity) and cold in the winter (below zero for days at a time). This was a big issue for me when I moved my studio to my new location. I brought in a separate fresh air duct and brought it directly underneath the workbench. Inside each hood for each workstation is a vent mounted to the benchtop, exactly like you'd find on a floor. This provides the fresh air. The exhaust system pulls it straight up and out, and the only place you can tell that fresh air is being brought in is right near the workstations.


This is a great way to build your ventilation system. I plan to have a local company build an enclosed hood for my worktable and I plan on running fresh makeup air straight to my table. I decided to build this way because I want to minimize room temperature heat loss during the winter and minimize room temperature cooling loss from bringing in hot humid heat during the summer.

I have gotten the change to see Mike’s studio and is setup and ventilation system and it is very impressive.

[Cracked Baubble]

wow! I found the pics in the studio forum
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603 (for anyone interested) I love the shine of the steel! it looks so clean

so now my questions are (lol you knew there would be some didn't you?)

does this affect the flame at all? The class I took had a fan going and the flame was jumpy didn't like it a bit (you'd be appauled at her ventilation system lol)
and could I do this without the box?

My bench is along the back wall and I could put a vent(s) through the wall right above the bench with an overhead hood.

[MikeAurelius]

No. Doesn't affect the flame at all.

As long as there is a suction hood somewhere above the work area, it will still work. You will need some baffles to bring the side walls of the hood down, but it will work.