Propane in the House? NO! [Archive]

MikeAurelius

2005-06-11, 11:35am

From the MSDS for propane:

"DANGER! Fires impinging (direct flame) on the outside surface of unprotected pressure storage vessels of Propane can be very dangerous. Direct flame exposure on the container wall can cause an explosion by BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion). This is a catastrophic failure of the vessel releasing the contents into a massive fireball and explosion. The resulting fire and explosion can result in severe equipment damage (meaning fire trucks!) and personnel injury or death over a large area around the vessel. For massive fires in large areas, use unmanned hose holder or monitor nozzels; if this is not possible, withdraw from the area and allow fire to burn."

This is a 'hot' topic, and we might as well get it discussed right off the bat. My intention is not to point any fingers but to get an idea of how many people are working safely with propane, and how many are not.

For those who aren't, what can we do to convince you to get that propane outside where it belongs?

barclayb

2005-06-11, 1:06pm

Great topic! I'm not using propane yet and this will help me set my studio up safely when I do.

Nicker

2005-06-11, 1:08pm

I can't vote, mine is kept in the welding shop beside the studio.

CorriDawn

2005-06-11, 1:57pm

Mine is kind of an other. My tank is in my garage. I know, it probably should be outside.

sadiesmom

2005-06-11, 1:59pm

Hi Mike,

My response isn't up there. When my tank is being used, I bring it into the garage and hook it up. Now, I can't say it doesn't stay in the garage overnight sometimes, but if I know I'm not going to be torching for a few days, it does go outside of the garage.

I had no idea you lived in MN until this new forum was started. If you ever come down to the twin cities area, I would love to impose on your time and knowledge and get your opinion on how my studio could be improved.

Thrilled to see you over here!!!
Denise

MikeAurelius

2005-06-11, 3:00pm

If the garage is attached to the house, that is considered part of the house.

Are there any particular reasons people feel the need to keep the tank inside in or near the studio?

Nicker

2005-06-11, 3:04pm

If the garage is attached to the house, that is considered part of the house.

Are there any particular reasons people feel the need to keep the tank inside in or near the studio?

All though my tank is in the shop which is attached to the house,my set up was installed by a welder, inspected by the buliding inspector, insurance adjustor AND the fire chief. If they say it's safe I trust them. I think 2 layers of fireboard and the fire chiefs OK is good?

Dale M.

2005-06-11, 5:00pm

Edit to nothing.

Dale

Jacinthe

2005-06-12, 3:38am

I store my propane outside my house, and when I use it, I have it sitting outside my window with the hose running through the window.

Hugs from Holland,
Sarah

danelady

2005-06-12, 7:17am

WHen you are like me and haven't been able to GET an outdoor tank installed due to your BOONINESS of location, you do as I have been doing. The BBQ tank comes inside WHILE I AM TORCHING. I have a quick release and pop it off as soon as I am done, OUt it goes to the storage shed AWAY FOM THE HOUSE. WHen it IS inside, I have it about 20 feet from my work area, behind a door.

Outdoor tank SHOULD be here in a couple more months (PTL!)
Lynnie

If the garage is attached to the house, that is considered part of the house.

Are there any particular reasons people feel the need to keep the tank inside in or near the studio?

Dale M.

2005-06-12, 8:42am

Edit to nothing.

Dale

danelady

2005-06-12, 8:53am

UPDATED July 4th. Propane tank has been installed OUTSIDE, Ventiliation installed INSIDE!!

Woohoo!
Lynnie

I know you're not attacking me, honest! You won't hear any arguments from me! I have an appointment to have my propane installed outside, just on a waiting list! Hubby will be placing a rack outside my studio window for me to place my propane tank on, and hose it indoors till then. I Read all the thread, thank you!

AAAARG........ Those are just the things and processes we don't want to hear... Mainly because it undercuts all the work we have been doing to promote safety... Suggest you put torching on hold till you can safely keep tank OUTSIDE at all times and have a proper connection piped into studio.

No this is not a attack on you, it is a just a comment on that the processes you are going by is flawed and that it is inherently dangerous even though you profess to try to do things safely.

Dale

bclogan

2005-06-13, 5:42am

My tank sits next to me while I work, but I'm working outside on the deck. As part of setting up my back room for torching, hubby is running a NG line into the room, so I won't need the tank anymore... except on nice days when I work out on the deck!

Barbara

MikeAurelius

2005-06-14, 6:04am

--bump--

beadstillmyheart

2005-06-16, 4:53am

Where do I go to see safety issue things for HH use? Is there some sort of checklist for all this stuff (propane or otherwise) somewhere that is concise?

MikeAurelius

2005-06-16, 6:15am

At the Art Glass Forum http://www.artglassforum.com

there are several sub fora, one on Safety, one on Technical Information. There are several dozen "white papers" that can be read all dealing directly or indirectly with torches and the Hot Head in particular.

WhiskerWood

2005-06-16, 12:03pm

I have my propane tank set up with a quick connect.
I bring it in to work and I take it out when I am finished...
I have a propane/natural gas sensor plugged in with battery back up and it is floor level...
So I feel mostly safe…
Eventually I will get it to where it comes in from outside but who knows when that will be…

starlia

2005-06-21, 9:50pm

Mine is kind of an other. My tank is in my garage. I know, it probably should be outside.
Mine is in the garage too.

Dale M.

2005-06-22, 7:30am

I know that this will cause discontent and I was thrashed for commenting on this subject before. But what is the justificatioin in having your propane tanks inside....

Its against NFPA codes, most municipal codes and it is dangerous....

Dale

Moth

2005-06-22, 7:44am

Dale, would you knock it off with the deleting your posts thing...I really wanna read the darn things blast it! I missed your posts for a long time, now you're teasing me.

~~Mary

Dale M.

2005-06-22, 8:36am

Dale, would you knock it off with the deleting your posts thing...I really wanna read the darn things blast it! I missed your posts for a long time, now you're teasing me.

~~Mary

Sorry..... From some feed back from a vocal person I got the feeling my post on propane safety were not welcome here, so I deleted them.... Walked away from it and decided that after somebody blows up their house and their neighbors and kills a few people and are walking around asking self "why me" (if they survive explosion) then I may explain it to them...

Dale

MikeAurelius

2005-06-22, 8:56am

Dale............you are doing it again.........

Dale M.

2005-06-22, 11:20am

I guess I can no longer post in this forum......... The SAFETY forum is no longer about safety.... It about who has approval to post here..........

Dale

Jilly Bean Beads

2005-06-22, 11:48am

I appreciate your posts Dale. Keep vocalizing.

MikeAurelius

2005-06-22, 12:23pm

Safety discussions can be handled in a mature, adult fashion.

Mr. Smiley

2005-06-22, 4:32pm

Ding ding ding!

Gentlemen, go to your corners... no name calling or hitting below the belt. Play nice! :D

Mr. Smiley

2005-06-22, 5:39pm

I guess I can no longer post in this forum......... The SAFETY forum is no longer about safety.... It about who has approval to post here..........

Dale

Dale, you are welcome to post here. You are also welcome to handle how you approach safety issues, different than Mike. You don't need Mike's permission to post on this forum. Please play nice with eachother... we want this to be a friendly place. If you guys have personal issues, please don't fight it out here. PM or email eachother. You don't have to agree on topics... just be respectful when you post. :D

Jilly Bean Beads

2005-06-23, 4:13am

Thank you Moderators - safety is so important for us all.

Su Poole

2005-06-24, 2:25am

Hi, Dale,

We live on a boat and use propane for cooking. The safety issues are many and the regulations are amazingly stringent, we have to pass a safety certificate inspection every four years including a test of the entire gas system or else we fail. When we looked at torching aboard the boat (ventilation is not the issue as we have more ventilation per square foot than any house would, also due to the safety regs) and we could easily set up an exhaust system more than adequate for our needs, we would have been able to connect our torch to the plumbed-in propane line in the boat. However, to support your discussion about safety, our tanks are required to be stored outside the boat proper, in a specially constructed locker that has low-level drainage holes to allow the any gas that could leak to drain away safely outside the boat. It's not required but many boats also have gas detectors installed at floor level to detect any stray propane gas, our cooking appliances such as the hob and oven all have flame-failure devises on them and all other gas appliances such as fridges or hot water heaters or furnace/heaters must be vented to the outside and not draw in room air for their combustion chambers.

That said, we are lucky enough to have a mooring with room for a shed, so we keep our propane tank outside the shed, and Mike's installed a variation of the 'Barley Box' over his work space with venting to the outside above the torch, and a wooden baffle just above the torching area to catch the fumes and keep them in that space till they're exhausted.

We've seen a few boats burned out because people were careless and thought they were doing things the right way. Safety is vital, and education of boaters is no more easy than any other group. It wasn't till the government and the EU created all the stringent regulations that boats became much safer places to live aboard and yet two weeks ago a couple were hospitalized simply because they were stupid enough to be refilling a kerosene heater INDOORS while it was still hot. The boat is a complete loss. They're only very lucky they're alive.

I understand completely your desire to educate and keep everyone safe.

-Su

MikeAurelius

2005-06-24, 6:06am

Dale, you are welcome to post here. You are also welcome to handle how you approach safety issues, different than Mike. You don't need Mike's permission to post on this forum. Please play nice with eachother... we want this to be a friendly place. If you guys have personal issues, please don't fight it out here. PM or email eachother. You don't have to agree on topics... just be respectful when you post. :D
My position is that I'd rather have an open, free of discord discussion on the merits of propane usage and installation.

BillBrach

2005-06-24, 6:20am

I see NO evidence of anybody "harassing" or "attacking" anyone in this thread.

Quite frankly, safety is not something most people "plan ahead of time" on, it is usually "after the fact".

"After the fact" in the sense of AFTER a minor accident, AFTER more thought when the "newness" of lampworking wears off, or AFTER someone points out a few problems in their setup.

I think that all Dale is trying to do is to bring it into the "forefront" of your minds, and to do that, he has to make an "impressionable" statement to get your attention.

We should be VERY thankful that we have people like Dale, who "keep an eye out" for safety issues. I'm sure if Dale were to see my studio, that he'd be able to find problems with it too.

Oh, and one more thing, WHY was this poll set up as a PUBLIC poll ?? I can certainly see why people would NOT want to vote in the poll, especially if they have a problem, because their names are shown !! I believe there would have been MORE results, and probably MORE truth, if this had NOT been a public poll !!

Respectfully,

Bill

MikeAurelius

2005-06-24, 6:29am

Bill - that's because Dale removed via editing all his previous posts. I'll not comment on that further.

And for the poll - I was trying to get an idea of what the percentages were of "good way" versus "not good way". As for the listing the names, I am unaware that there is a way to hide the names. If there is, would the administrators, please change the poll to a "private" poll? It was not my intention to have names listed.

Mr. Smiley

2005-06-24, 6:40am

For the love of Pete... would you guys stop picking on eachother? I see everyones point. Everyone has a different approach to how they deliver the safety message. Diversity will reach everybody. Arguing on who's approach is best dilutes the origional intent of this thread. I'm sure there are people that appreciate and need both approaches. Telling me it's not safe may not do the trick, but telling me I could blow up my neighborhood, just might get my attention... and vise versa. I think both approaches are valid and have their place. ;)

Dale M.

2005-06-24, 6:41am

Thank you Su and Bill for the continuing support of safety in the studio.

Dale

Mr. Smiley

2005-06-24, 6:42am

Craftylady

2005-06-24, 7:49am

This is all about Safety. I think we need to keep that in mind. I want to hear what you both have to say. If there is an iffy situation then let us moderators handle it. As long as no one is handing out bombs or dishing out names we are good. I like hearing or should I say seeing both sides of the story. Yes I think your Tanks should be outside. That does not mean that they are in all cases. But if we can educate lampworker's on the importance of this then we might make a difference. But if we fight over the situation then that puts doubts in peoples head. Let’s not put doubt in there heads. Let’s stick together and make this a place to learn about safety.

Laurie

Mr. Smiley

2005-06-24, 8:09am

Let's hear more about why it's dangerous to have them inside...

Propane gas is heavier than air. If there is a leak in your system, in an enclosed space, it will settle near the floor. This will build up and if it reaches an ignition source, it can cause quite a boom. Even if your tanks are stored outside, it is necessary to turn them off when not in use. The torch valves or hoses can malfunction and you could end up in the same boat... with it all leaking inside a closed space. I think the "why" to all of this is just as important when discussing the main problem. I'm sure you can all add to my feeble attemp at explaning the science behind the danger. :D

MikeAurelius

2005-06-24, 8:17am

This is a 'hot' topic, and we might as well get it discussed right off the bat. My intention is not to point any fingers but to get an idea of how many people are working safely with propane, and how many are not.

For those who aren't, what can we do to convince you to get that propane outside where it belongs?

That's all I need to say.

lunamoonshadow

2005-07-07, 10:37pm

shawnette

2005-07-08, 1:30am

I can't vote...because my answer isn't up there! "No, my BBQ tank stays outside, & I bring my hothead attached to it's rolling computer cart outside to torch whenever I can" :D
So I never actually have propane in the house...tho if I can figure out a way to safely run hoses for the winter...that might change...but it's not looking promising :( I'll likely have to just give up torching from Nov-May.

Why don't you just run a hose through a window? Until I get my permanent set-up built, I have a board in my window to give enough space to run the hose through, but still keep the cold/hot/bugs out. When I finish, I disconnect my hose from the tank and bring it (hose) in to close the window. I'm wayy to paranoid to to bring the tank in and it's wayy too hot to torch outside. (too many skeeters, too!)

lunamoonshadow

2005-07-08, 9:30pm

Oh--I have a basement apartment with a kind of weird set up--so I'm trying to figure out a "good way" to do the window thing....weird windows & all....Most of my windows are at "eye level" so the hoses would "hang" into the house when I was torching--I don't have any windows level with any tables....and I wasn't sure how the hothead would react to that since propane wants to flow down anyway....ah, the joys of living "underground" ;)
~~Lyn

MikeAurelius

2005-07-09, 5:18am

Cosmo

2005-07-09, 6:16am

I have a sort of non-related question for those of you who teach classes....

Where do you keep your propane when teaching? We teach in a bead shop. We have 4 torches going, and keep our propane in a separate room. Well, not really a room. The store is in an old building (about 9000 sq ft) and only the front half is finished. The back half is a large warehouse. There is a wall in the middle of the building. Where we teach is right along the back wall, and we put our propane in the back half of the building and run the hoses through the door. Is there anything better someone can suggest? We don't leave the tanks there. We take them for the class, and take them home when it's done.

Yes, we have good ventilation, BTW. So good that we have problems with it blowing the flames around if we aren't careful...

Dale M.

2005-07-09, 9:23am

There is a lot of things better........

First off the rules for propane storage may differ in a commercial zoning than a residential zoning situation... And from one area to another the country.

The best situation you can have is that propane tank be outside building, PERIOD. By placing it outside that keeps any possibility for propane that may be leaking from tank from accumulating inside building. Also be aware that a tank subjected to excessive heat (fire) will "blow off excess pressure" (tank safety valve) when INTERNAL PRESSURE of tank reaches 375psi, this may be caused by fire near location of tank. Best scenario would be tank placed in outside secure metal cabinet with ventilation holes top and bottom or a wire cage security enclosure..Also mark outside storage with "FLAMMABLE GAS" warning signs. By piping in gas in metal piping you remove danger of large volume of gas (tank) inside building. Propane should be piped in at LOW PRESSURE, NFPA codes state you can bring propane in at max pressure of 20psi. This can be done by having a fixed pressure regulator at tank. Also you should have shutoff valve (2) for gas piping one immediately before it enters building and other at "end" of piping before you distribute gas to adjustable regulator(s) or manifold (s) where hoses from torches attach. Each gas valve should be clearly marker that it is a "FLAMMABLE GAS SUPPLY" and clearly its "OFF and ON"" positions. Also suggest you include city building permits and inspection in piping processes and qualified or at least gas knowledgeable experienced people in plumbing process. Having it done right will cut down on liability issues with insurance and legal actions in case there is any litigation in case of fire or personal injury.

If situation is temporary, it still would be best to have hose long enough to keep tank outside... Temporary situation create a gray area where NFPA and local regulations may not apply. But good safety practices dictate tank be out side. Also where hose goes through doorways, use some sort of stop so hose is not pinched or cut by "closing" door.

Dale

MikeAurelius

2005-07-09, 10:20am

Chad, when I moved my teaching studio to its present location, the building inspector and fire inspector both came through and did inspections. The fire inspector used NPFA (which our city has adopted as its fire code) rules. Propane has to be outside. All connections from the propane tank to the point of distribution have to plumbed in metal pipe, no rubber, even "T" grade. There have to be shut off valves outside before the line goes through the wall, inside after the wall entry, and at the point of distribution. Every 20 feet, the fuel gas line has to be marked with a sign indicating the gas in the line and direction of flow.

Visible on the outside of the building I had to put the NFPA diamonds for propane, compressed oxygen and liquid oxygen. The Rubbermaid "box" that I keep the propane in had to be protected from impact from vehicles (concrete filled steel tubes driven into the ground). Flexible metal hose from the tank to the main fuel gas line.

Valves had to be NFPA approved gas valves, ordinary water or compressed air valves are not code.

All connections had to be flare fittings or threaded fittings, not compression fittings.

No screw type hose clamps on any of the "T" grade rubber hoses. The ones I had needed to be removed and replaced with the twin ear compression type hose clamps.

Any place where the rubber hose could be bumped or moved was to be protected, so that the hose would not chafe or be cut or compressed accidentally.

If teaching is going to be a regular part of the studio activity, I strongly recommend that you bring the fuel gas installation up to NFPA standards BEFORE you have inspection. Chances are that if it is not to standards, the building inspector or fire inspector could red tag you and shut you down until the entire studio is brought up to code and re-inspected.

Rhapsody Fire Beads

2005-07-09, 5:29pm

Dale M.

2005-07-09, 7:24pm

I'm sorry to hear that.... Prayers go out for your familys loss...

Dale

lunamoonshadow

2005-07-09, 9:17pm

Lyn - torching with propane in a basement is never a good idea, it doesn't matter whether it is with a hothead or a oxy/propane torch.

Ventilation is difficult to manage, as is the problem of propane pooling. And running full pressure propane...I don't even want to think about it.

Yeah...it's a "walk out" basement (house built into the side of a hill--one side is "ground level"--but my doors are on that side, no windows) but that's why I take the torch outside & melt glass in the driveway--the tank lives outside in the shade of the porch, torch & table come inside when I'm done. I'm just peeved we've had a LOUSY summer so far & thinking of that 6 months of "too cold to torch" is making me crazy! (wonder if I can convince my brother in law his lawn tractor doesn't need to be stored in his shed? ;))

Prayers & hugs to your family Suzy....
~Lyn

mobility

2005-07-09, 11:48pm

Propane is nothing to mess with, keep it outside. Period. This weekend my hubby's cousin just lost his 12 year old daughter to a propane explosion from a leak building up under their house. They used it for cooking. She didn't make it out of the house alive.

~Suzy~

That's horrible, Suzy. I'm so sorry. Please give him and all of your family my condolences.

My friends' cabin in Crested Butte, CO. blew up because of a propane pipe leak in the basement. Luckily, they had gone home two days before. They usually turned off the gas from their large tank outside the house when they left but some people were coming the next week so they left it on. Thank god there were no casualties. It was still a traumatizing experience for them, so PLEASE be careful with any kind of fuel gasses. Parts of their cabin were found TWO BLOCKS away!

If you keep your propane tanks in a container outside, make sure you have vent holes near the bottom for the gas to get out and holes near the top for fresh air to get in. You don't want to open it with propane all pooled in there!

Also-- if you go the natural gas route, make sure you have a gas-certified plumber install your lines. If not a plumber, make sure the installer is gas-certified. Make sure you have on-off valves where they are easy to reach and are clearly marked ON-OFF in case of a problem. Have all lines and valves re-checked by a gas-certified inspector at least once a year.

Lots of things can ignite natural gas or propane in an enclosed space-- it's nothing to mess with. If you have any natural gas or propane lines in your house, they should be checked by a gas-certified inspector regularly. If you ever smell gas in your house, LEAVE IMMEDIATELY. Go to a neighbor's house and call the gas company. Let them come and turn off the gas and check for leaks. They have sophisticated leak-detecting equipment and can turn the gas off from a remote location if neccessary.

I know of way too many bad things happening to people, like my friends here in New Orleans who were killed when the shed that they kept their hot water heater in exploded when they opened the door. None of us here want to seem like school-marms or hall monitors but we also do not want to hear about something terrible happening to anybody.

Fuel can be dealt with safely and with a minimum of risk as long as we all take the necessary precautions to make it so. Replace compromised equipment when it breaks down, don't have large quantities of flammable gas in your house, check for leaks in your hoses and regulators once a month, and have a gas-certified inspector check all your gas appliances, lines and valves yearly. All of those precautions will minimize your risks, and you can torch to your heart's content, safely and happily.

Cosmo

2005-07-10, 2:03pm

The problem with our tank being outside is that we are on the second floor. If we were to move the tank outside, we would need at least 150 feet of hose, if not more. And, we are in a busy downtown area, so I'm not sure it would be safe outside.

I believe there is natural gas in the area, so I'm trying to convince them to tap into their natural gas supply to run the torches (plus it would be easier than me lugging tanks back and forth) but I don't know if that will happen any time soon...

PyroChixRock

2005-07-10, 2:04pm

My condolences, Suzy.

kandice

2005-07-10, 2:46pm

My god, how awful. I am so sorry to hear that. Folks, this is ***exactly*** why propane should always be outside. It's not difficult to drill a whole through a wall and have the propane piped in from the outside. It could save a life.

Propane is nothing to mess with, keep it outside. Period. This weekend my hubby's cousin just lost his 12 year old daughter to a propane explosion from a leak building up under their house. They used it for cooking. She didn't make it out of the house alive.

~Suzy~

Dale M.

2005-07-10, 5:10pm

Rhapsody Fire Beads

2005-07-10, 7:09pm

We just had our propane water heater replaced with an electric one, and after the horror of hubby's Cousin, I am so glad there is no propane wandering around under our house anymore! Their house just exploded and then burned to the ground, and the 12 year old Daughter was blown clear out in the front yard. They couldn't even find her for quite awhile!! Everyone else was sleeping and she was on the computer downstairs. Her Dad, had just finished a new family room, and had the propane turned on before bed, so they so could all have a nice family breakfast together in the new addition. Everyone else got out. It was the house my hubby grew up in, in Kansas. A big beautiful farmhouse!! So sad. Where I had never met them personally, it still makes you feel so bad for them, to loose their Daughter like that.
I had a good healthy fear of propane before, but now........???? I just don't understand why anyone would ever take the chance of loosing their child, or other loved one, or their own life??? Just get it outside!!! I'd rather NOT make beads, than risk everyone, and everything I love. How fun would it be to make a bead, after arranging a funeral?

~Suzy~

Cosmo

2005-07-11, 5:38am

Maybe propane is not a practical fuel in your situation.

Dale

Maybe not, but until they get their natural gas hookup, it's what we're going to have to do. It's sort of a double-edged sword... they don't want to get the natural gas hookup until they see that the classes are going to happen pretty regularly, but I can't teach classes with anything but propane.

I am, however, forwarding the shop owner this web site. This particular thread, actually. So hopefully that will be more convincing than I am...

NLC Beads

2005-07-11, 9:38pm

Question for Dale or anyone else who gets there first? :)
I am moving to a new house and putting a studio on the second floor. There is a walk-out, open air porch off the studio/bedroom. Would this be a safe place to keep a tank, as if there is a leak, the propane can still be blown away by the air? (I haven't done it yet, just want to know what would be the best way.)
Thanks much for a very informative thread.
Nikki

MikeAurelius

2005-07-12, 4:50am

If the porch does not have a staircase from ground level, the use/storage of propane tanks on patios or balconies on 2nd floor or higher is usually banned. The reason is usually having a house fire, not leakage of the tank. If there is a house fire, having the tank on the 2nd level will increase the amount of devastation a tank explosion would cause - think of a bomb dropping - an air burst causes much more damage than a ground burst does.

NLC Beads

2005-07-13, 7:38pm

Ahhh... thanks for the answer. Very appreciated.

Deneen

2005-08-05, 8:22am

Just curious..... If there is a propane leak in a basement that does not have a walk out, how do you get the pooled propane out of the basement?
Thanks.

BillBrach

2005-08-05, 8:32am

It will dissipate eventually but you might have to use fans to help it outdoors. They make special fan setups to do this, you've probably seen them when you drive past a street manhole that is being worked in. They have a fabric covered 'tube' attached to then to control either the pickup or discharge location.

Deneen

2005-08-05, 8:38am

Thanks, Bill!

kandice

2005-08-05, 2:59pm

Here's why I personally have my propane tank outside and have it piped in through the wall.

1. Propane is very dangerous to breathe. If there's a leak, whether you're torching or not, this gas can kill you. I don't want to have to worry about gas leaking and pooling in my home/garage where the people and animals can breathe it in. When I took my very first class in a studio, they had no decent ventillation and had the propane inside. I had chest pain and dizziness for a whole week. I don't want to go through that again, so I keep it outside.

2. I don't want my house to blow up.

3. It was very easy to drill a hole in the wall, pipe the hose through and seal it. Easy. So I had no good excuse not to do it.

So there you have it. That's why I have the propane outside, and why I encourage others to have it outside as well.

However, I don't take it personally if someone else takes the risk of having it inside. They're adults and are perfectly capable of making those decisions on their own. It's silly to me to get all worked up because someone decides to take a risk. I encourage safety. I want and wish for people to be safe. But if they decide to take the risk of doing something I view as unsafe, well.....then they take on the possibility of being poisoned or blown up.

Nicker

2005-08-05, 4:05pm

Just a small note about keeping your propane outside. Our house insurance policy is null and void if our propane (or any gass for that matter) is left outside unsecured. It's considered a "hassard". It needs to me inside a metal "theft proof" container and paddlocked.

Barb H.

2005-08-06, 6:28am

Hi guys! Since I'm a part time lampworker, I use the MAPP handheld small tanks. When our new garage is finished my hubby was going to set me up a workbench in the corner. Is there a problem with this kind of setup? Maybe if I ever get really into it then I can have the bigger tank and run a hose right to the bench from outside. Right now when the weather's nice I work on the deck, but come winter I was going to the garage. I know there's fumes either or, and will have good ventilation in the garage. And I would guess it's a no-no to use one of these in the basement small tank or not. Thanks for any help!
Barb H.

BillBrach

2005-08-06, 6:39am

If you don't want to go through the major hassle of putting in proper plumbing for your gas supply, you could just buy a bulk hose and tank of MAPP, or a BBQ bottle of propane, and simply carrying the tank back and forth.

Bring the tank into the garage, make beads, and return the tank to proper outside storage when done making beads. Even get a little free excercise in the deal.

Barb H.

2005-08-06, 7:02am

Thanks Bill....

MikeAurelius

2005-08-06, 7:15am

You CAN use single one pound tanks in the house. Current code allows for a maximum of two full one pound tanks in a residence. There is no real problem using them in a basement, provided you have good ventilation.

Barb H.

2005-08-06, 4:02pm

Thanks Mike! I always worried though with the hot water heater flame and furnace. We only have one window, and then I thought a fan would help push it up and out. Scary though! Although, that's one way to see if the co detectors are working. But then I've always wondered about welders and plumbing when they're in a basement, or would they shut down all the pilots, or is that even a concern? Thanks again Mike. Barb H.

MikeAurelius

2005-08-07, 8:04am

CO detectors will only detect carbon monoxide, unless you have a dual purpose detector that also detects propane/natural gas (Nighthawk sells them, and I strongly recommend them to every lampworker).

The reason single one pound tanks are permissible is that the volume of gas contained in the tank is so small, that even if there was a full blown leak, the average sized room is large enough that the explosive level of propane won't be met. This is not the case with 20# BBQ tanks though.

Your comment about one window concerns me though about ventilation - you will need more than that for good ventilation, unless you are venting out through a duct. The window is going to be needed for bringing in fresh replacement air.

I've never seen anyone welding in a basement, but plumbers do it all the time - and they don't turn off any pilot lights. Once the fuel gas has been burned, it cannot re-ignite - and the possibility of a leak is very small.

Barb H.

2005-08-07, 1:12pm

Thanks again Mike. We have Nighthawks throughout. And I also have the concern with the one window. So for now I think I'll just continue on the deck and wait on the garage. Of course this garage has been in the process for almost two years! Great contractor we have! LOL Thanks again and happy torching.

Kalera

2005-08-07, 1:25pm

All though my tank is in the shop which is attached to the house,my set up was installed by a welder, inspected by the buliding inspector, insurance adjustor AND the fire chief. If they say it's safe I trust them. I think 2 layers of fireboard and the fire chiefs OK is good?

I would assume that your welding shop is correctly vented for heavier-than-air flammable gases, which is something the fire chief would have looked for. That makes a huge difference. Areas which are not correctly vented allow any leaking gas to pool, which creates the risk of explosion, against which the firewall is no protection whatsoever. (A 5-lb propane tank will take down a house, and a few neighboring houses, if it explodes.) Propane tanks leak very frequently, which makes correct venting a necessity in a welding shop. There are codes that govern this, which is what the fire chief ascertained when he inspected your shop.

I'm only saying this so that people who are unfamiliar with the reasons your shop passed inspection don't think "Well, the fire chief says it's OK for Nicker to have her tank inside a building, so it must be safe for me too!" without looking into the specific conditions which make it safe in your shop.

Nicker

2005-08-07, 3:27pm

I would assume that your welding shop is correctly vented for heavier-than-air flammable gases, which is something the fire chief would have looked for. That makes a huge difference. Areas which are not correctly vented allow any leaking gas to pool, which creates the risk of explosion, against which the firewall is no protection whatsoever. (A 5-lb propane tank will take down a house, and a few neighboring houses, if it explodes.) Propane tanks leak very frequently, which makes correct venting a necessity in a welding shop. There are codes that govern this, which is what the fire chief ascertained when he inspected your shop.

I'm only saying this so that people who are unfamiliar with the reasons your shop passed inspection don't think "Well, the fire chief says it's OK for Nicker to have her tank inside a building, so it must be safe for me too!" without looking into the specific conditions which make it safe in your shop.

Good point, I was kinda trying to say instead of taking heresay from people online actually get a professional or two come and inspect your set up. Thanks Kalera I was pretty unclear.

Dale M.

2005-08-07, 3:42pm

I would assume that your welding shop is correctly vented for heavier-than-air flammable gases, which is something the fire chief would have looked for. That makes a huge difference. Areas which are not correctly vented allow any leaking gas to pool, which creates the risk of explosion, against which the firewall is no protection whatsoever. (A 5-lb propane tank will take down a house, and a few neighboring houses, if it explodes.) Propane tanks leak very frequently, which makes correct venting a necessity in a welding shop. There are codes that govern this, which is what the fire chief ascertained when he inspected your shop.

I'm only saying this so that people who are unfamiliar with the reasons your shop passed inspection don't think "Well, the fire chief says it's OK for Nicker to have her tank inside a building, so it must be safe for me too!" without looking into the specific conditions which make it safe in your shop.

Let me also add, in most welding shops ACETYLENE is used as a fuel. It is a lighter than air gas and will float off (upwards) and not pool like propane...But that does not negate the need for good ventilation.

Dale

sandra j ziolkowski

2005-08-09, 3:44pm

Thanks to all of the safety minded threaders Im working with out all the head aches and possible long term damage due to carbonmonixide poisoning not to mention fear of explosion.. Now I have my tanks out side and am having an exhaust system enstalled tomorrow so I dont kill my self. Maybe it would help if someone tells of the ills of long term build up of carbon monoxidewithout proper venilation. Just a thought:) Anyway I am very greatful. Being brand new at this I havn't read all the threads that have been written over time,so itjust sounds like plain good advice.
Thanks again
PS
And if there is anyone newer than I out there oxygen concentrators are the way to go. Me and my Minor burner are "very happy".
Sandi

MikeAurelius

2005-08-10, 6:01am

There is plenty of information on the web about CO poisoning - do a yahoo search on the keywords "carbon monoxide poisoning".

mattmoss

2005-09-02, 12:34pm

Hi folks...

I'm still a newbie, having only worked with MAPP gas in the small canisters and a HH. I had been planning on moving to propane/oxy/minor, but after reading this thread, I don't think I can. I'm in a second floor apartment of a private house, so I can't go drilling holes and I doubt it would be safe/easy to start dragging lines up to the second floor... nevermind where to actually put the propane tank.

I guess my question, then, is if it's still safe to continue using those MAPP gas canisters indoors? How much ventilation would that require? (IE, do I need to start putting in ductwork/etc, or could I get away with a couple of simple fans, one in, one out, in the two windows in the room?)

Thanks...

danelady

2005-09-02, 1:11pm

Just wanted to add one FURTHER UPDATE. Hubby installed a CO/FIRE alarm ABOVE my work station last week! I feel VERY safe now! Thanks for all the advice, Bill, Mike and Dale!
Lynnie

UPDATED July 4th. Propane tank has been installed OUTSIDE, Ventilation installed INSIDE!!

Woohoo!
Lynnie

I know you're not attacking me, honest! You won't hear any arguments from me! I have an appointment to have my propane installed outside, just on a waiting list! Hubby will be placing a rack outside my studio window for me to place my propane tank on, and hose it indoors till then. I Read all the thread, thank you!

MikeAurelius

2005-09-07, 11:58am

Good for you!!!!!

Woo hoo!!!

SL Beads

2005-09-23, 1:28pm

Dale M.

2005-09-23, 4:16pm

Dear Mike: It seems that some people keep their propane gas next to them while working, but they put it away when done. Is this setup acceptable? Is the issue about keeping the tank away from flame and possible flying glass? If so, can this be accomplished by covering the tank with some protective material? SLBead

The issure is leaking gas.... And no, this setup is not acceptable. Having tank next to you is not good, its not safe, and if it is leaking you have explosive bomb right next to you!...

Nothing you can cover tank with is going to make it safe. Only thing safe is tank outside, period!

Dale M.

MikeAurelius

2005-09-24, 7:21am

As Dale says. For awhile there was discussion about putting the propane in a box, whether to "hide it" from inspectors or to protect it. Once it was pointed out that if there was ever a fire and the fire personnel entered the house and could not see the propane tank, they wouldn't know it was there and probably would not take the necessary steps of protecting it or getting the hell out of the building.

What some people don't understand (especially hot head users) is that they are using full tank pressure (100 psi plus). If there were ever a leak in the hose, whether cut by sharp glass or burned through from hot glass, the tank would empty itself in very short order. As I recall, the explosive concentration of propane is somewhere around 4% - meaning that if 4% of the air is "contaminated" with propane, it will explode if exposed to an ignition source. With full tank pressure, explosive concentration will be met in seconds. Some people use the excuse that with the tank right next to them, they can react quickly and shut the tank off in time. This is totally wrong thinking.

cattmr

2005-09-24, 1:59pm

Dale M.

2005-09-24, 8:04pm

Here's one
We are going to start traveling in a motorhome and will have to carry our tank in one of the storage bins. One is ventilated will that be ok as it will not be hooked up till we arrive and set up. The tank will remain outside away from the rig about 25 feet. Jack brown

Yes... In properly VENTILATED storage compartment!.... It's quite common for motor homes to have their propane supplies in VENTILATED storage compartments... The key here is propane gas settles downward, in motor home situation there if free air space below "coach" and there is always air movement to dissipate the propane if it were to leak.

Dale

SL Beads

2005-09-27, 6:23am

JavaGirlBT

2005-09-27, 6:35am

Does she know something that we don't know?

No, I would say that we know something that she doesn't know.

MikeAurelius

2005-09-27, 6:52am

CJ's book is FULL of some very bad things. For example, she adds a lot of fuel to the clear safety glass vs didymium debate in the safety chapter.

The problem as I see it (in my own not-so-humble opinion, of course ;) ) is that people read these books as if they are the un-mutable truth and bible. Got news for ya! They aren't. In many cases, these books are nothing more than an accident waiting to happen. CJ's been asked many times to update the photographs and "discussion" in her books to reflect current knowledge about safety topics, and she totally refuses to do so.

And when, if ever, she does change them, there is still going to be uncounted thousands of these books with bad information floating around the world.

I freely admit that I've been very outspoken in the past about CJ's attitude towards safety, and the post above shows that inspite of the tens of thousands of words about safety, it is still disregarded by those of us who put money ahead of safety.

It's a damn shame, and one day, someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed by following the practices shown in books like CJ's.

Dale M.

2005-09-27, 7:40am

Has anyone checked Cindy Jenkin's Book "Making Glass Beads?" The creator of HH torch shows in her book (page 20) a pic of typical single-fuel work station. Guess where she has her bulk fuel tank placed. Right under the table with the torch on it. Also on the page 21 she has a different pic with the propane tank and the oxygen tank right by the torch. Does she know something that we don't know?

Ever consider those pictures where for an EXAMPLE on how equipment is setup... Not for safe operation, but to illustrate the mechanical connection...

There is a lot of things written in a lots of books ... Do you take everything as gospel truths...

Dale

SL Beads

2005-09-27, 3:28pm

Dale M.

2005-09-27, 4:55pm

Dear Dale M: I understand what you are trying to say, but in the same token she should have thought about who she was writing the book for. The book is for the beginners who know nothing about the safety issue as yet. So of course beginners follow the gospel and try to follow it faithfully. She really should have thought about that, in my opinion.

And not to cast any doubt on her abilities to make beads because she is a very accomplished beads maker. But maybe she knows nothing to very little about some aspects of safety, and why it was not addressed in her books. That is why these forums flourish, because the newest latest most correct information is available...

Dale M.

PamS

2005-09-29, 8:08am

Dale M.

2005-09-29, 10:38am

Greetintgs,

I just found this forum and it looks great. I've been keeping my oxy and propane in the workshop (I know, bad idea) and would like to find some very specific informationl on how to plumb them both outside, including a materials list and suggestions on where to find stuff. Can I use copper tubing to run through the wall? I'd like to be able to leave the cylinders open outside and shut them on/off with valves inside attached to the pressure guages (and then to the hoses). Is that feasible and if so what kind on on/off valves shoud I use?

I also would like to know if it's ok to put the oxy and propane cylinders next to each other outside or do they need to be seperated somehow.

Any advice or directions to a tutorial would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Pam

First some information....

National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) codes prohibit bringing propane into residence (if garage is attached to house it's considered part of residence) at as pressure of more than 20 psi. So if you want adjustable regulation at studio "bench" you need to have a intermediate pressure regulator on propane tank. Average propane tank pressures run about 125psi.

Tanked oxygen can have a pressure at up to 2300psi. It is very expensive to try to bring oxygen into studio at these extreme pressures. Plumbing assemblies have to be the absolute best quality and plumber better be high pressure gas certified. However! The solution is quite simple. Have a intermediate pressure regulator on oxygen tank as well (same concept as propane). I am not sure , but I don't think there is a restriction on oxygen pressure as there is on propane,

At this point I would have intermediate regulator on propane tank set at something like 10psi and intermediate regulator on oxygen tank can set to 20psi. This may vary some according to your personal needs.

Then I would connect intermediate regulators to copper or steel piping to enter studio. This is quite common process and quite similar to natural gas piping found on most areas. You can simply connect intermediate regulators to steel/copper piping with flexible hoses (welding style) or soft copper tubing. HOWEVER AND THIS IS IN CAPS FOR EMPHASIS - NOT SHOUTING. IT'S ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT YOUR LINE(S) FOR THE OXYGEN PLUMBING CONTAIN NO OILS OR OIL BASED THREAD SEALERS. AN OIL-OXYGEN MIX IN PIPING IS A RECIPE FOR A SPONTANEOUS EXPLOSION. Metal oxygen line must be scrupulously clean before connecting to oxygen supply.

Once piping is inside studio, any good quality valve rated for "fuel gas" should be acceptable (also for oxygen - But should have GREEN handle) With valves at end of piping you can attach the second set common style adjustable welding regulator to end of shutoff valves. Valve should be clearly labeled as to what they control (fuel/oxygen) and their off/on positions. Shutoff valves and inside regulators should also be supported by brackets securing them to the wall. Believe threaded inlets on regulators are "1/4 inch pipe thread" (once tank connector is removed). From there its standard welding style hose to torch. All "rubber" hoses should be grade "T" for propane gas use.

As for tanks sitting outside and together, there is not a problem. Just be sure that oxygen tank is chained to wall (or post) in upright manner, its a safety issue, keeps it from falling over and breaking off top valve. A local glass artist placed her tanks in a RUBBERMAID outside garden storage locker for appearance and security.

Also if you find this a bit too extreme or intimidating, you may want to explore having natural gas piped into studio and using oxygen concentrator/generator instead of tanked propane and oxygen. Just keep in mind some torches (large ones) do not function on the relative low pressures of natural gas.

Dale M.

swanseafarm

2005-09-30, 6:47pm

I keep my tank outside at all times. The hose is run in through a sliding door when in use and totally disconnected when not in use.

PamS

2005-10-01, 2:59pm

Hi Dale,

Thanks for the info. I'll look into an intermediate regulator between the tank and my existing regulator - hadn't thought about that! I do know about the risk of putting oil or any petroluem product near oxygen. I fly gliders and we have oxygen installed in them for flying at altitude. We don't even use petroleum based chapstick.

I'll post a photo after I get it all installed.

Regards,
Pam

Dale M.

2005-10-01, 5:05pm

Christine Scott

2005-10-19, 9:29pm

This is a great discussion... things are different here in oz
We all have gas bbq on our veranda's be it front back whatever, and be it house or unit.We refill our gas bottles at servo's and average is 9.5kg and we have all our taxis run on gas and loads of cars..
we do not even think about gas ...
Most people don't even turn off at cylinder when not in use.. I do, can't remember why.. I have never heard of gas blowin up.. in the household situation or vehicle.
Interesting..

GlassJules

2005-10-20, 6:53pm

I am having trouble wading through this whole thread to catch up, but I was wondering, did anyone post pictures of how they pipe their propane through a wall?

My husband is done with the framing and wiring on closing off of our 3rd stall into a workshop area, and we had someone come in and do an estimate for venting and natural gas hookup. She felt relatively certain that they would not be able to get permit for this application for natural gas...bummer, because that is what I had in Fargo. I am seriously bummed because everyone I've called just acts like I have a third head when I describe what I want. Idaho is not exactly a hotbead of glassworkers to have set a precedent before me... :-({|= :-({|= the same was true in Fargo, but somehow we got through all that.

Anyway, to my question...does anyone have pictures of their propane outside setups? If I go the route of putting my propane outside, I've gotten the general gist that I need to put it outside in a deck box or some such, but I don't know what kind of piping to run through the wall, how to seal the hole and/or make it attractive (brand new house, I would like to make it look nice and finished) and what needs to be on each end.

What I want is a materials list of what to buy to accomplish this.

I am also puzzled -- with this setup, are you forced to run outside to turn on the gas at the cylinder each time, or do you have some kind of dual control setup here, or do you leave it on all the time, and just turn it off at the torch?

Dale M.

2005-11-06, 12:40pm

Bottom line is you can pipe in propane at a maximum pressure of 20 psi, it should be in steel/black iron pipe. And follow same plumbing rules as natural gas or commercial propane appliance supply plumbing. A shut off valve is required at outside wall and you will need one inside at end of steel piping. Yes it needs to be sealed where it goes through wall, simple caulk will do. Some sort of flex connector needs to be placed between tank regulator and steel piping.

Tell contractor you want extra gas line run for "gas clothes dryer" in new room...Have them stub it out, put shutoff valve on end and "cap" it ...You can remove cap and put on hose adapter fitting later.

Dale

MikeAurelius

2005-11-07, 6:52am

Here are two pictures showing one way to do it. I've since replaced the rubber "T" grade hose on the first picture with flex metal gas line fitted with a quick disconnect and replaced both shut offs with fuel gas shut offs, but these pictures should give you the basic idea of how it's done.

Dale M.

2005-11-07, 9:29am

Mike... Where is sign " EMERGENCY GAS SHUT OFF" near valve on inside?

Just a thought!

Dale

MikeAurelius

2005-11-07, 11:13am

As I said, Dale, it's an old picture, taken before all the work was completed.

Islandgirl

2005-11-12, 4:22pm

I too do not fit into your poll, my bead shop is a seperate building well away from the house, with totally inflamable crushed rock in between, (>100ft) aside
{ I usually don't bother with shoes when I go get my beads in the morning, even whe there is half an inch of snow....,} my tank is inside that building, could be moved outside, but it's legal here.... we checked!

Lynne

need not in house but indoors on your poll!

Bacchae

2005-12-11, 8:59am

MikeAurelius

2005-12-12, 9:17am

But not in all parts of the country. The dual monitor (CO and fuel gas) is available only at about half of the 'home improvement' stores around the country - you won't find them where propane is not a widely used fuel - like in large cities. I also seem to remember reading someone writing that they were not available in California at all, but I don't remember where I read it or who wrote it.

Darelyn

2005-12-12, 10:47am

Wow. This has been an eye-opening thread. I have a HH with a propylene tank in my basement. Mike, I live in MN, too. Can the tank be stored outside in the cold weather? If I'm not going to use it, can it go in the shed? If we upgrade to a minor, can those tanks be in the basement? Do all tanks have to go outside with special covers to be safe?

MikeAurelius

2005-12-12, 1:00pm

The tank MUST be stored outside, ALWAYS (caps for emphasis). It can be in a shed, providing the shed is not physically attached to the house.

Tanks of fuel gas of any kind are not allowed in a house. Period.

Tanks should be always outside, whether in use or not. Keep them in a storage tub - Rubbermaid makes them as do other companies.

Darelyn

2005-12-12, 7:12pm

Dale M.

2005-12-12, 8:55pm

Thanks for the info.
I read "Bottom line is you can pipe in propane at a maximum pressure of 20 psi." Does this mean that you should never use a hothead attached to the propylene tank, even if the tank is outside and the hose is brought into the house, since the HH has a higher pressure?
Is the only option to upgrade to the ox/prop outside or use the little mapp tanks inside?

NO.... IT says you can not pipe it in as a permanent installation at a pressure of more than 20 psi. NFPA does not make a ruling for Propane/Propylene/MAPP being brought into studio in a TEMPORARY situation with a hose brought in through a door or window as long as the tank remains outside. Some people have argued this is still not safe, though it is legal. It is up to you if you use this temporary situation. Just remember at end of torch session hose must be disconnected from torch (or hose including torch) must be removed and stored outside.

Here is excerpt from a document in another thread on this board.

The use of a extension hose and bulk tanks is not a use that was ever considered when the Hot Head type torch was designed. Adding the bulk tank of fuel, and a long extension hose is something that has “grown out of necessity”. The necessity of having torch inside and fuel tank outside. Understand that doing this is a “gray area” in fire prevention regulation and you do so at your own risk. I believe this process is inherently safe but does not conform to NFPA rule if you follow the literal interpretation of NFPA writings.

Full document can be found here:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831

Or here:

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

Dale M.

Dale

Fana

2005-12-12, 10:29pm

<snipped>

Here is excerpt from a document in another thread on this board.

The use of a extension hose and bulk tanks is not a use that was ever considered when the Hot Head type torch was designed. Adding the bulk tank of fuel, and a long extension hose is something that has “grown out of necessity”. The necessity of having torch inside and fuel tank outside. Understand that doing this is a “gray area” in fire prevention regulation and you do so at your own risk. I believe this process is inherently safe but does not conform to NFPA rule if you follow the literal interpretation of NFPA writings.

<snipped>

Dale

Our house has natural gas which means pilotlights for the heater as well as the hotwater heater. Grey area or not, my propane tank, my hose, my Hot Head and I are staying outside on the deck......and drat, it is cold right now :)

Thanks Dale (and Mike and others) for your warnings about HH and bulktank, it sure has opened my eyes.
_____
Sheila

Antoñio

2005-12-13, 1:22am

If the garage is attached to the house, that is considered part of the house.

Are there any particular reasons people feel the need to keep the tank inside in or near the studio?

Well Mike, you might not like my answer to your loaded question but here it is:

I have had an average of 15 lbs of propane in my work area for many, many years now. There was a time when the shop caught fire and the tanks were sooted pretty heavilly but, hey...no explosions resulted.

I keep my tanks up to date is about all I can say in defense. Perhaps I have been lucky or perhaps this is just one more thing that we have overreacted to --like radon and asbestos levels in houses. (Not solely my opinion but the opinion of the health and safety inspector for my county.)

On the flip side I know that propane, being heavier than air, will sink to the floor should a leak develop. The collection of a large quantity near the floor might set up the conditions for an explosion should a serious leak occur. However, I have not ever had a problem since propane seems to dissapate quickly and isn't poisonous to breathe.

But in direct answer to your question: I am lazy! I see no reason to haul tanks in and out every night. They just don't seem any riskier than having a 5 gal jug of fuel for the mower, paint thinner, or that old can of starting fluid in the shop. How many of you store that can of gas outside?

If I am in denial about all this and you have some sound factual data that would prove my indifference wrong, would you please let me know? Oh, and would you please tell me what the hell they use to scent the stuff with? I mean, couldn't they have used roses or lilac scent instead of the garlic/roadkill smell they use??

Thanks for your sincere concerns for us arteeest types. I for one really apprectiate it !

Antonio

MikeAurelius

2005-12-13, 6:33am

Antonio - how about this: what you are doing, is, plain, purely, simply, I-L-L-E-G-A-L.

You risk everything by keeping the tank inside. You got lucky ONCE. You may not get a 2nd chance. And what about the fire fighting professionals? You put them at risk by keeping the propane indoors. Imagine your surprise if you survive the explosion, to find a lawsuit from the families of the fire fighters killed or seriously injured by your negligence. Imagine your surpise when your insurance company cancels your insurance and refuses to pay for any and all damages because of illegal storage of a flammable fuel gas.

Sorry, but I have no time or patience for people who are lazy, in denial or indifferent to the risks and hazards.

If you want factual proof, go read the NFPA rules and regulations. They are adopted nationwide by every city, town, rural area in the U.S. They state quite plainly: Fuel gases such as propane may not be stored, kept inside a residence or attached building to a residence. The maximum amount of tanked fuel gas permitted is two one-pound cylinders.

People who work in separate out-buildings or commercial buildings are still required to follow similar rules, meaning that tanked propane MUST be kept OUTSIDE at all times. There is no waiver for laziness. There is no free pass for people in denial. You don't get permission to not follow the law because of indifference. The law applies to EVERYONE. What you are doing is not only putting yourself at risk and those around you, but you are also putting the entire glassworking community at risk - all it will take is a couple of "accidents" and all of a sudden, the insurance companies and the building inspectors and the building code writers are going to sit up and take notice of "us". So far, we've flown under the radar and have avoided a whole bunch of trouble, just because there have been no "accidents".

Darelyn

2005-12-13, 7:16am

[QUOTE=Dale M.]NO.... IT says you can not pipe it in as a permanent installation at a pressure of more than 20 psi. NFPA does not make a ruling for Propane/Propylene/MAPP being brought into studio in a TEMPORARY situation with a hose brought in through a door or window as long as the tank remains outside. Some people have argued this is still not safe, though it is legal. It is up to you if you use this temporary situation. Just remember at end of torch session hose must be disconnected from torch (or hose including torch) must be removed and stored outside.

Thank you for answering the questions. I did read those other articles, and just wanted to make sure I understood.

So for folks who use the oxy/prop solution, those tanks are also stored outside and piped in?

MikeAurelius

2005-12-13, 8:33am

In most cases, Darelyn, yes. There are *some* who won't (see above), but the law states that it *must be*.

Dale M.

2005-12-13, 8:38am

So for folks who use the oxy/prop solution, those tanks are also stored outside and piped in?

Yes.... Propane tank is to remain outside. Only exception is up to 2, 1 pound, cylinders. Anything bigger has to be outside. Yes this applies to tanks used with oxygen/fuel torches. The great thing is that you CAN pipe in propane at a max of 20psi and fuel/oxy torches usually do NOT need that much pressure.

Dale

Darelyn

2005-12-13, 8:54am

OK, I think I finally got it. Thanks, all!

Darelyn

2005-12-13, 11:36am

I just thought of another question. If I were to upgrade to a minor or some other oxy/prop torch, could I still use my tank of propylene with the oxygen? Or does that need to be another type of propane?

MikeAurelius

2005-12-13, 1:05pm

Nortel doesn't really recommend anything other than propane or natural gas. That being said - you can certainly use up what's left, then convert to straight propane when the tank is empty.

Darelyn

2005-12-13, 1:11pm

Thanks!

Sue in Maine

2005-12-13, 1:23pm

Mike,

I'm waiting for my Maine Oxy safety guru to get the hose in for my mini cc. I'm switching from hh with bulk propylene (OUTSIDE and in thru a hose in the window- which I've finally used up) to my mini cc, complete with pressure guage and f.b. arrester. The question is: when Maine Oxy delivered my PROPANE for the mini cc, they hooked up my hh hose to the tank. Not a problem as I haven't done anything with it but my safety guru told me I c*o*u*l*d use my hh with the propane. I asked him about propane going thru the hose that formerly had propylene going thru it and he said it was okay. I have NOT dared to try it but I'm having some torch withdrawals here. Is he right? Can I or should I wait? I want to be as safe as I can.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Sue

Antoñio

2005-12-13, 1:24pm

Antonio - how about this: what you are doing, is, plain, purely, simply, I-L-L-E-G-A-L. So is parking in a yellow zone. My question was: Is it dangerous and can you cite some statistical data which backs your assertions?

Sorry, but I have no time or patience for people who are lazy, in denial or indifferent to the risks and hazards. Who is asking for you patience?

If you want factual proof, go read the NFPA rules and regulations. They are adopted nationwide by every city, town, rural area in the U.S. They state quite plainly: Fuel gases such as propane may not be stored, kept inside a residence or attached building to a residence. The maximum amount of tanked fuel gas permitted is two one-pound cylinders. I want proof that this is dangerous. Not proof that it is illegal.

People who work in separate out-buildings or commercial buildings are still required to follow similar rules, meaning that tanked propane MUST be kept OUTSIDE at all times. There is no waiver for laziness. There is no free pass for people in denial. You don't get permission to not follow the law because of indifference.The law applies to EVERYONE. What you are doing is not only putting yourself at risk and those around you, but you are also putting the entire glassworking community at risk - all it will take is a couple of "accidents" and all of a sudden, the insurance companies and the building inspectors and the building code writers are going to sit up and take notice of "us". So far, we've flown under the radar and have avoided a whole bunch of trouble, just because there have been no "accidents".

Your alarmism, thus far, has rendered no proof of your assertion that propane stored indoors is dangerous....other than, of course, it's potential to explode if surrounded by fire. But then, fire is the actual danger , isn't it? I mean I could name a dozen substances that *could* explode should they be exposed to a fire. You still offer nothing but alarmism ...no proof sir.

I suggest you put your mind to the task of finding good, solid evidence that indoor propane has *caused* accidents or is inherently dangerous, and avoid accusation and inuendo. Are you offering yourself up as an expert in these matters? If so, bring on the proof , and spare me the tedious alamism...in your own words we have, "flown under the radar". I take that to mean there have really been few accidents actually *caused* by leaky propane.

Also, what makes 3 gals of propane stored indoors more dangerous than the 100 gallon tanks just outside the window? Sorry, but I just don't get it and suspect it is just another arbitrary rule foisted upon us by some bureaucrat wishing to justify their job security.

Proof sir, not alarmism. Should you provide it I will listen.

Antonio

Sue in Maine

2005-12-13, 2:26pm

Darelyn

2005-12-13, 2:27pm

OK, I'm still trying to envision the setup. I was reading the other post about cold oxygen tanks. Does the gas tank go outside and the oxygen go inside the house? Can both stay outside (even in MN)?

Dale M.

2005-12-13, 4:19pm

OK, I'm still trying to envision the setup. I was reading the other post about cold oxygen tanks. Does the gas tank go outside and the oxygen go inside the house? Can both stay outside (even in MN)?

First there is NO rule for oxygen tank other than it needs to be chained up for safety. It can go inside or outside. IF fuel is outside why not keep oxygen tank outside too... Oxygen tank does not know if its cold or hot, it doesnt care.

One of these rascals outside studio to put tanks in and with both oxy and fuel piped in to torch makes a great arrangement...

http://www.rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/product/detail.jhtml?prod=HPFG374901+714&attributeId=HPATT4005&nextType=&currentType=HPCAT02&locationId=LOC00001&thirdMenuIndex=5

Dale

Antoñio

2005-12-13, 6:05pm

Antonio,

The only one responsible for the choices you make is you but your decisions affect other people and I'm not sure you have the right to put them at risk by breaking laws, regardless of what your personal opinion of them is. Gee, I don't like the rule so I'm not gonna follow it. I'd think that with one fire that you got lucky on, you'd be the first one hopping onto the safety bandwagon.
Mike made some good points on the insurance and lawsuit issues but there is one he didn't mention. If you are responsible for someone dying, how are you going to live with yourself, especially if you knew you shouldn't have been doing what you did in the first place.

Mike gives us a lot of valuable safety advice on this forum and I, for one, appreciate it. I don't see the sense or need to have him "justify" anything.

Sue

How am I putting anyone at risk? How is there more safety in storing 2 lbs of propane over 3 ? How does having a 100 lb propane bottle outside the window make a firefighter more safe than having 3 lbs indoors?

I do not blindly accept rules just because they are rules. I suggest you should not do so either. Not all rules are gems of wisdom.

I am asking for advice on the subject because it does not seem to make sense; not questioning the former value that Mike has provided to the forum. I questioned his conclusions on this specific matter only and got a long diatribe attacking me personally. This indicates to me that there is no substance to his arguments.

I suggest you refrain from judgement before you understand fully the context of my query. I in no way meant any disrespect, but seem to be receiving disrespect in return for an honest question.

Antonio

Darelyn

2005-12-13, 6:17pm

Thanks, Dale.

!ngridh

2005-12-13, 6:23pm

OK now don't yell -I get the message...I saw that 1-2 lb tanks can be inside. Now is anyone going to rebutt that?

Kevan

2005-12-13, 6:41pm

So how come the jewelry store can have a big canister of propane sitting right there next to the jewelers bench?

Dale M.

2005-12-13, 8:46pm

So how come the jewelry store can have a big canister of propane sitting right there next to the jewelers bench?

Because its a COMMERCIAL establishment.... Different rules than RESIDENCE...

Dale

Kevan

2005-12-13, 8:53pm

Because its a COMMERCIAL establishment.... Different rules than RESIDENCE...

Dale

Wouldn't it have the possiblity of killing a whole lot more people inside of Fred Meyers than in my garage?

Antoñio

2005-12-13, 9:41pm

I have never heard of gas blowin up.. in the household situation or vehicle.
Interesting..

Me neither... That's because it's highly unlikely.

However, there are those alarmist types that will try and logically argue that if a thing is "possible" ; if one person *might* die , that we should be doing something about it. The argument lacks balance.

By that line of reasoning we should all errect protective domes over our houses because a meteor *might* hit us. Or maybe we should avoid all sporting events because a terorist *might* attack us. Or maybe we should preemtively attack Iraq because Sadaam *might* come and get us. The ole' domino / logical extrapolation theory is exploited over and over again and when someone wants to further some agenda. And when someone steps up and asks, "Why?" They are always met with anger and resentment.

There is a fine line between intelligent safety concerns and paranoia. Personally, I think we are all a bit too reactionary in this country. I think we need to legalize marijuana so that we can all relax a bit. ;-)

Antonio

Antoñio

2005-12-13, 9:44pm

Wouldn't it have the possiblity of killing a whole lot more people inside of Fred Meyers than in my garage?

Doesn't Fred Meyer's sell starting fluid stacked on the shelves in the auto section? That stuff is way more exposive than propane. They use it (ether) in race cars to get more ooomph. Can we infer from this that Fred Meyer's and the Fire Marshal believe that these explosive substances, when handled with proper care, are not likely to cause a problem?

Further, (and I would love some firefighters to chime in here) I think that explosion is way down the list when it comes to deaths resulting from fires. Way up there is strutural failure and inhalation of toxic fumes from burning plastic substances. Perhaps we should store our couches and rugs outside at night?

By the lack of response to my question, I think it is clear that the "it's dangerous" perspective has been totally disproven. There is no reason to supponse that 2lbs of propane is a resonable storage amount while 10 lbs is not--that one poses more danger than the other. Nor is there any reason I can imagine that would make a 100lb container outside the window less dangerous than a 3 pounder inside.

Sorry Mike, but I must respectfully disagree.

Antonio

Kevan

2005-12-14, 12:05am

Hardware stores are lined with flammable and exposive products. How can Home Depot have 50 1b. canisters of propane on the shelf and that be more safe than having a 3 lb one in my garage?

It can't. It's stupid.

There's a bigger fire hazard at my nail salon.

danelady

2005-12-14, 3:41am

You guys need to consider 2 things (and remember I did at FIRST keep my propane indoors.. I'll tell you why I DON'T now, in a bit) heres the 2 things:
1. You and your family LIVE in your house. A propane leak in there WILL kill. Period. one spark and you are all bye-bye

2. Keeping propane indoors is illegal. period. always. (EXCEPT for some businesses and thats a whole other issue) IF you should have a fire, inhalation accident or ANY of the above.. insurance won't pay, you will go to jail, and you'll probably have killed or maimed someone you love.

Now, here's what convinced me to get my propane outside FAST!
An acquaintance of mine had his propane tanks in a covered ., screened and partially glassed in concrete porch. I asked him last year if it was safe... and he assured me that "he always had it that way.. lots of ventilation since the porch only had a half roof and all screened. Long story short.. one of the fittings failed while the family slept. Wife went out on the porch to smoke, as she always did, in the AM and there was a horrific explosion. 3rd degree burns and 6 months of skin grafts later, yes she is still alive. Insurance did NOT cover house damage because they consider a screened porch INSIDE STORAGE. The back half of their house was trashed. Wife almost killed. Over keeping a $20 tank of gas under cover, when they could have EASILY piped the gas thru the screens or door and left the tanks outside.

Thats ALL I have to say!
Lynnie

Here is a pic of the Propane tank OUTSIDE and the quick connect/Flashback arrestor we have set up. I simply disconnect the hose It is all enclosed in a rubbermaid container turned on it's side. I drilled a hole in one side for the hose to slip thru and keep it closed.
http://www.doglogic.com/AUCTION/images/propanesetup.jpg

Hardware stores are lined with flammable and exposive products. How can Home Depot have 50 1b. canisters of propane on the shelf and that be more safe than having a 3 lb one in my garage?

It can't. It's stupid.

There's a bigger fire hazard at my nail salon.

MikeAurelius

2005-12-14, 4:50am

A tank OUTSIDE can be SEEN by firefighting professionals who can put a hose on it to keep the liquid fuel inside from boiling.

A tank INSIDE cannot be SEEN by firefighting professionals until they enter the building, and the liquid fuel may already be boiling from the heat, and an explosion may soon ensue -- the professionals may not have enough time to evacuate.

I just love the way people need to justify their actions by denegrating generally accepted rules and regulations and demand reasons why THEY need to follow them and try to point out that other people don't or try to compare apples to oranges (household studio versus commercial establishment with overhead 'wet' sprinkler systems and advanced firefighting equipment built into the store).

It's also very obvious that certain people did not read the opening post to this thread, so I'll repeat it for clarification:

From the MSDS for propane:

"DANGER! Fires impinging (direct flame) on the outside surface of unprotected pressure storage vessels of Propane can be very dangerous. Direct flame exposure on the container wall can cause an explosion by BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion). This is a catastrophic failure of the vessel releasing the contents into a massive fireball and explosion. The resulting fire and explosion can result in severe equipment damage (meaning fire trucks!) and personnel injury or death over a large area around the vessel. For massive fires in large areas, use unmanned hose holder or monitor nozzels; if this is not possible, withdraw from the area and allow fire to burn."

Dale M.

2005-12-14, 8:58am

Excerpt from previously posted article....

NATIONAL FIRE PREVENTION ASSOCIATION ( NFPA - Section 58 )

Using and storing these "gases" is regulated by the Nation Fire Protection Association ( NFPA) and or a set of local ordinances. A copy of the NFPA codes may be purchased here:

http://www.nfpa.org/Codes/index.asp

Note: They are not available for viewing online.

Or:

NFPA (National Fire Protection Association)
1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, MA 02169-7471 USA
Telephone: +1 617 770-3000 Fax: +1 617 770-0700

The NFPA stipulates that natural gas may be brought into a residence in steel piping at a maximum pressure of 5 pounds per square inch (psi) . It is generally brought into residence at the pressure of ¼ to ½ psi or 6.9199 to 13.8399 inches of water column (wc). 27.6799 inches of wc is equal to 1 psi.

The NFPA stipulates propane may be brought into a residence at the maximum pressure of 20 psi . And must be in steel piping.

Please note it is against NFPA and most local ordinances to bring either gas into residence with rubber or vinyl hose just pushed through a hole in the wall.

The NFPA also prohibits storage and use of a propane cylinder over the size of "1 pound" in a residence. Although it is permissible to store 2 such "1 pound" containers inside at any give time. This means your 4.5 and 11 and 20 pound cylinders (or larger) MUST BE STORED OUTSIDE. If concerned about out side storage you can either provide a secured (locked) storage enclosure or if its only appearance you can use a decorative enclosure. Just be sure what ever enclosure you use, that it is well ventilated at bottom of enclosure to prevent propane pooling in enclosure.

Actual NFPA document is available here:

http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=5804&query=section+58&target%5Fpid=5804&link%5Ftype=search

Just pay the $36 and be an educated lampworker.

Also find full document on Natural Gas and Propane notes here:

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020

Dale M.

Antoñio

2005-12-14, 11:22am

Dale, Mike, Danelady...

Thank you all for the intelligent replies. I want to know that I have reconsidered and believe it is probably better to err on the side of caution and so I will be piping my propane in after many years of not doing so.

It is always better, I think, to appoach those who do not agree with your initial assertions with respect. Respect engenders better communication especially amongst those with the 'artist mentality"--those who are not afraid to question the status quo and pretty much live " on the fringes " anyway.

I often take an adversarial stance on an issue just to bring out the very best in people and help me to clarify my own thinking. Often people "rise to the occasion" and produce their best when challenged. I am one such person.

I have dealt with building departments, fire inspectors, and labor & industries quite extensively in my real estate dealings. I know that there are many arbitrary rules and regulations that make no sense--rules that have been granfathered in and remain for no good reason. Perhaps you have seen examples yourself.

In this particular case I have weighed all your arguments and think you guys may be right. I bow ( but not too low ;-) ) to your judgements.

Have a wonderful and safe holliday season,

Antonio

BlueStudioBeads

2005-12-17, 8:48pm

Wow, this has been a great inspiration for me to get my propane tank out of my studio. Here's my situation: my studio is above a detached garage. My home is heated with natural gas but the studio has a separate large propane tank for heat. Which would be easier/cheaper/faster -- to use the existing propane tank for my fuel source (is there a way to piggyback off the line already plumbed) or to have a line put through the wall for a separate smaller tank?
Thanks for your advice!
Dyann

MikeAurelius

2005-12-18, 6:26am

If you piggy back off the already plumbed line, you are locking yourself into a low pressure already regulated, usually non-changable pressure setting.

What I'd do is have the gas people "T" off the line BEFORE the regulator, put a 2nd regulator on the line, it can be fixed at 10 PSI (maximum is 20, but I've NEVER seen anyone in glassworking use more than 10 PSI). Inside the studio, use a 2nd settable regulator set at 5 PSI. Using dual regulators will give you the ability to adjust your pressure as needed.

Doolollies

2005-12-18, 8:55am

I would like to say after years of following (lurking) in the forums that if it were not for some people who are willing to teach and inform on safety issues that I believe there would already have been some unfortunate and deadly outcomes. I think there are many people who read the forums for all info fun and safety issues alike that don't post frequently or never post that go away with information that they would not otherwise have access to. So I believe you are touching huge numbers of people that you aren't even aware of. Thanks Dale and Mike especially for all your diligent help all these years. I personally respect these issues on fuel safety. IN addition the issue that an accident with these fuels whether or not my fault would invalidate my home owners insurance if they were improperly stored and used is another point well taken. I can also tell you after my own PERSONAL experience with storing 2 one pound cylinders of Mapp gas ...legal or not... I will never even have the one pound tanks stored inside again. I had a one pound Mapp tank that leaked and believe me that little tank was enough to convince me that even that was not worth the risk. About 2 yr. ago here we had a large house EXPLODE and horrible fire and surrounding houses heavily damaged do to propane tanks stored in all places the living room. Was he heating with them? That was the original thought according to the fire dept. investigation. Can't ask the resident because he is dead. So... again, thank you and carry on. Have fun but always safety first.
Linda

brimmy

2005-12-19, 2:22am

I have a question.

I use a Hot Head on MAPP Gas. The cannisters I currently get are the small one pound tanks (the tiny yellow ones that only last for two to three hours that you can buy at Rona or Canadian Tire). Since I live in a small apartment with no garage, no balcony, no yard, they sit in the corner behind my front door. (I will have upwards of five full tanks and ten empty tanks there at one time).

I am looking into upgrading to a larger tank system. I can get 10lb and 20lb tanks (20lb tanks are standard propane tanks for BBQs) filled with MAPP Gas from a local welding supplier. I will be getting a regulator, backflow valve or whatever and all the other little doodads including an extended hose and quick release so that my tank can be on the other side of my apartment from my studio. I called the fire department and talked to a residential fire inspector as to my plans of having this tank within my home. He hung up to do some research, and called back the next day saying that he didn't see any problem with me having this cannister within my home.

Does anyone have any safety experience with MAPP Gas and be willing to give me some suggestions to make my intended setup safer? Does anyone have any suggestions on any economical ways to solve this problem?

Since MAPP Gas is apparently heavier than air, I was thinking of having some sort of top open but airtight container (like a rubber bucket) that the tanks can sit in. I have seen this with other set ups, and if the container is big enough, it will temporarily contain the leak so that someone attentive can find it and deal with it before it becomes a more immediate problem. This in no way diminishes the danger of ignition as there are still lingering vapours, but it does contain the gas from leaking across the floor, causing asphyxiation in small animals, children or anyone breathing below knee level.

MikeAurelius

2005-12-19, 7:38am

Canadian laws about propane safety must be very different from US laws - but the hazards remain exactly identical.

DO NOT keep propane tanks or MAPP tanks or any other explosive/flammable fuel gas tanks in your apartment PERIOD. ALWAYS KEEP THEM OUTSIDE.

Get rid of the empty one-pounders - they cannot be refilled - they contain small amounts of fuel and in a fire will act like hand grenades when exposed to fire and flame.

Keep no more than two filled one pounder tanks in your apartment at any one time.

Just because the laws are different does not diminish the risk to you, your family and your apartment building in anyway whatsoever. Not only are you placing yourself and your family at risk, but every single person who lives in your apartment building.

This is A Very Bad Idea.

I strongly urge you to continue using one pound propane tanks - or move your studio into a place where you can safely use propane tanks.

There really is no such thing as 'temporarily containing a leak' of propane gas - once you have a leak, you have a potentially fatal problem - that of an explosive gas waiting for a spark. The leak may not come from the tank area, in which case the bucket serves no purpose whatsoever. The danger from propane is not asphyxiation, but the low volumetric level required to reach explosive concentration. And a bucket is the perfect container to reach that level -- it is far better to allow the propane to spread than to contain it in one small area where the concentration can reach explosive levels in a very short time. A wider area allows for more immediate notice that there is a problem, either by using Nose Mark I, or by fuel gas leak detector devices.

Do the only safe thing - put the tank outside where it belongs.

Dale M.

2005-12-19, 8:44am

I totally agree with everything Mike has said....

The laws may allow it, but practical sense and personal safety should override the fact the law is lax on the subject... Really have to wonder about the qualifications of your fire officials.

There is no way to practically contain leaking heavier than air gases. The only solution is "dilution" and that can only happen if a large volume of air is moving across floor and pulling gasses out side. This means all the time, not just when you are at the torch with ventilation running, because you never know when you may have a leak.....

Dale

brimmy

2005-12-19, 2:22pm

Again, we have the problem that there is no possibility of putting teh tanks outside. I have no yard, no patio, no garage, no storage. I am also not allowed to just throw away tanks. If the collectors believe that there are tanks in my garbage, they can refuse pickup. I have to spread them out and put one in the center of each full bag. Since I do not make much garbage, sometimes the empty cannisters pile up, sometimes I can get rid of them all. I try to only keep my one cannister for my torch and one spare at a time, but since I work on my beads at night (darker and easier to see the glow) I have to plan on this. In one night I can use upwards of 4 tanks. If I know I need to do that much work in one night, that is when I will have upwards of 5, but the rest of the time, there are no more than two.

Instead of just preaching about what I am doing wrong (I know what I am doing, the hazards and safety issues included) how about some constructive suggestions on how to make my apartment safer. Its a catch 22. To make my apartment safe, I need to get rid of the torch and move into either a house with an unattached shed / garage or get a studio. To be able to afford the move to somewhere much much more expensive, I need to keep making beads and my other art. So, I will gladly live with what risk I can reasonably minimize and be as careful as possible (I know its not much, but no one in the building smokes, we have no candles, incense, no gas stove, the torch is the one obvious ignition source) and save up every little penny in hopes of getting a more suitable living space sooner rather than giving up and working for McDonalds.

MikeAurelius

2005-12-19, 3:53pm

Brimmy - that is the point we are trying to make - there is no possible way you can make your apartment safe to use a propane tank inside. If you have a leak, you will have full tank pressure (120 PSI) of propane spilling into your apartment space - in less than 30 seconds, the gas will reach explosive threshold. There is no way around this - it is basic physics.

Continue to use your 1 pound tanks, it is the safest way you can work.

brimmy

2005-12-19, 6:46pm

Dale M.

2005-12-19, 9:09pm

According to the fire department, MAPP Gas tanks and propane tanks are different. Which is why I would be allowed a tank equivalent to a BBQ tank in my apartment. Thank you though. When I am finally ready for my new set up, I will post here for suggestions.

I think you need to go back to fire dept. Tanks for propane and MAPP can be intermixed (we are talking physical design and mechanical properties) and physical properties of the gasses them selves are similar.... As both being LPG gases and heavier than air and both explosive...

Suggest you get MSDS sheets for both fuels and compare dangers.

http://phyvirtual.nju.edu.cn/material/MSDS/G118.pdf
http://phyvirtual.nju.edu.cn/material/MSDS/G74.pdf

This makes me doubt fire dept officials even more then before.

Dale

danelady

2005-12-19, 9:21pm

Nope, a BBQ Tank is illegal in your apt. You could kill everyone living there with one! If you value your freedom and your life, get the tank out ASAP... please. Call the fire dept and have them over for a visit. You'll see!According to the fire department, MAPP Gas tanks and propane tanks are different. Which is why I would be allowed a tank equivalent to a BBQ tank in my apartment. Thank you though. When I am finally ready for my new set up, I will post here for suggestions.

brimmy

2005-12-19, 9:35pm

danelady : Please read previous posts. I do not have a BBQ tank in my house (only the little 1lb MAPP gas cannisters, as explained above). The discussion is based upon my phone call with the fire department as to what my options were for upgrading my torch and that was their suggestion (after hanging up, researching and calling me back the next day).

Karen Hardy

2006-01-11, 6:07pm

Joining in late here. Hi boys and girls. I just built a studio in my garage and (bad girl) I do have the propane inside. Even after reading through all the pages of posts I'm having trouble envisioning how I'm going to go about putting the tank outside and putting a hole in the wall and what kind of hook-up it's going to be. Someone recommended to me that I should put a dryer vent in the wall and feed the tubing through that - would that be ok? How would I turn the propane on and off - would I have to run around to the backyard and then run back around to turn it off again?

I'm 100% in agreement that it's stupid to have the propane in the house (attached garage/studio) - so you all can save your breath verbally smacking me around. I'll do it myself even {smack}. I'm a good girl, I just don't know how to go about fixing things, and haven't been able to figure out how to do it the best way. If you can explain it - try and keep it to a 4 year old comprehension level <g>. I'm not stupid, but sure feel that way when it comes to the technical stuff. Pictures would be a lifesaver (no pun intended).

Oh - Mike, I bought your glasses a while ago (biker style!) and I adore them. No more headaches or blurry vision from eye strain and flares, and I look bitchin' in them (isn't that the most important part?). Awesome product!!! Got lots of compliments on them at the last Glass Society meeting.

Karen Hardy

Dale M.

2006-01-11, 9:44pm

NFPA stipulates any propane coming into building needs to be in metalic piping... That means you can not just poke hose through hole in wall or through something like dryer vent....

Dale

Karen Hardy

2006-01-11, 11:19pm

NFPA stipulates any propane coming into building needs to be in metalic piping... That means you can not just poke hose through hole in wall or through something like dryer vent....

Dale

Hi Dale!
So now, color me even more confused. It's ok to have the propane tank outside and chuck a hose through a window, but if I want to put in a dryer vent and pass it through there that's not kosher? I'm more concerned about safety than NFPA requirements (although I'd prefer that my insurance agent not run away screaming in panic when he sees my studio setup too).

I just don't see how I can properly set this up myself without calling in a professional (and then, that begs the question, what KIND of professional, plumber? electrician? And what exactly do I tell him/her that I want to have done? I have a handyman that does odd jobs, but he's a little gung ho and would gladly assemble a nuclear bomb in the bathroom for me if I had the plans and materials - so I can't count on him for safety issues).

Karen

MikeAurelius

2006-01-12, 5:25am

Karen - what you must understand is that the NFPA *IS* the underlying safety standard when it comes to fire safety AND fuel gas safety.

Passing a line through a window is considered a temporary installation, and as such is not regulated by NFPA.

Penetration of a wall in a specific method to provide a 'pass through' for a fuel gas line is considered a permanent installation and *IS* regulated by NFPA.

Wall penetration is very easy to do.

You will need metallic pipe, usually about 4" longer than the wall is thick. You will also need two fuel gas rated valves, one inside and one outside.

Drill a hole in the wall where you want the pipe to run. The hole should be at least 1/4" larger than the pipe outside diameter. Pass the pipe through the wall. Have someone hold the pipe in place and with either fuel gas rated pipe dope or teflon tape, coat the threads and mount the fuel gas valve on the other side. Brace or block the pipe at this point to keep it from moving.

Switch ends with your helper and attach the other fuel gas valve on the opposite end in the same manner with dope/tape.

Attach a rubber hose adapter to the inside fuel gas valve - usually a 1/4" barbed end on one side and pipe thread to match the fuel gas valve. Use pipe dope or teflon tape to seal the threads. Use a proper hose clamp - not the screw type, but a compression hose clamp and attach your "T" grade hose line (red). You can also get a pipe thread/B fitting from your local welding supply store and attach the "T" hose to that if you don't want to cut the fitting off.

On the outside, use the proper adapters to mount a flexible metal fuel gas line to the outside valve on one end and a fuel gas quick disconnect on the other end (matching QD on the regulator).

If you want a professional to do this, select a plumber who has experience with fuel gas plumbing. This type of installation *usually* does not require a permit, but check with your local building authorities to be sure.

Failure to do it the proper (NFPA) way, would probably result in the cancellation of your insurance and non-payment of any claim in the case of a fire.

MikeAurelius

2006-01-12, 6:39am

Here's a couple of pictures that might help.

The first is from the inside, the second from the outside.

Note that the outside picture shows a rubber hose running from the valve to the fuel tank - this was changed shortly after to the picture was taken to a flexible metallic pipe.

Dale M.

2006-01-12, 9:22am

Hi Dale!
So now, color me even more confused. It's ok to have the propane tank outside and chuck a hose through a window, but if I want to put in a dryer vent and pass it through there that's not kosher? I'm more concerned about safety than NFPA requirements (although I'd prefer that my insurance agent not run away screaming in panic when he sees my studio setup too).

I just don't see how I can properly set this up myself without calling in a professional (and then, that begs the question, what KIND of professional, plumber? electrician? And what exactly do I tell him/her that I want to have done? I have a handyman that does odd jobs, but he's a little gung ho and would gladly assemble a nuclear bomb in the bathroom for me if I had the plans and materials - so I can't count on him for safety issues).

Karen

Mike pretty much said it all...

Dale

docdana

2006-02-19, 4:51pm

I freely admit that I've been very outspoken in the past about CJ's attitude towards safety, and the post above shows that inspite of the tens of thousands of words about safety, it is still disregarded by those of us who put money ahead of safety.

It's a damn shame, and one day, someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed by following the practices shown in books like CJ's.

You might find this interesting then. My mother bought me my first HH last year. I torched with it a few times (went through 2-3 bottles). Then 1 day I lit the torch and it exploded! Really.........., right in my face! I was extremely fortunate that the blast was directed away from me and the torch, MAPP gas bottle and all, was ripped from the table bracket and flew across the garage. Other than years taken off my life and a burned tractor seat (still burning torch landed on my DH's John Deere seat burning it to smithereens) I was not injured. Called Hot Head Source, talked to CJ's "manager" who told me she was so glad I was OK, they'd replace my torch (as if I really wanted another!) and said that I must have one of their "older" models. She stated that they had some problems with the threading where the torch head met the stem and some torches leaked a little! That's great, they knew about this problem, redesigned the torch but never issued any public warning or recall!!! So I agree with your assessment Mike and even if nobody else has a problem with their HH, I won't deal with anyone that doesn't put their customer's safety first! Even if she is not an expert on these safety matters, then she should hire a consultant who is or put a disclaimer in the book revealing that her book will not address safety matters and direct people to a reputable source for more info.

Just my scary tale, thought I'd share! Thanks so much Mike and Dale for all the info you two have provided, hopefully keeps us all safe!

Dana

Hothead Beads

2006-02-22, 1:23pm

Can I change my earlier vote? My tank is OUTSIDE now! :-D

rusticstudio

2006-02-22, 6:57pm

I'm still confused: If you pipe the gas in, you still have to go outside to turn it on or off? Where my studio is situated, there is a window, but I would have to trek quite a ways around the corner, upstairs through the house, outside, and fish around under the deck to access that window area. I want to be safe, but I also don't want to make it such a PITA to torch that I never want to do it.

Dale M.

2006-02-22, 7:54pm

With approved metallic piping and proper shut off valve you do not have to turn off gas at tank when done, BUT it would be safer if you did. With approved metal piping your gas for torch is no different than any other gas supply in home for any appliance... BUT you still have to shut off inside valve at minimum when done torching to be safe.

Dale

IF-Designs

2006-02-25, 10:34am

I suggest you go talk to you home insurance representative and see what THEIR take is on it. As others have said in the off chance you DO have an explosion and kill someone or destroy your house your gonna be SOL because insurance WILL NOT PAY.

Now ask yourself is being stubborn about a $50-100 install worth the potential cost of loosing a loved one? Loosing your home? Loosing your Insurance coverage if you DO have an explosion from a leaking tank?

Karin
By the lack of response to my question, I think it is clear that the "it's dangerous" perspective has been totally disproven. Antonio

danelady

2006-02-25, 11:26am

You might not be REQUIRED to, but it sure is a whole lot SAFER if you do!
If you have a fire indoors, you may be placing lives in jeopardy (yours or fire personel) if the gas is ON, especiallly if you don't have other gas appliances. Firefighters look for stoves, Gas water heaters and LARGE outdoor Propane taks for indoor gas, but wouldn't think to assume a SMALL tank is piped indoors.

I turn mine OFF outside, then let the flame bleed out the remainder of the gas, then turn it of INSIDE.I'm still confused: If you pipe the gas in, you still have to go outside to turn it on or off? Where my studio is situated, there is a window, but I would have to trek quite a ways around the corner, upstairs through the house, outside, and fish around under the deck to access that window area. I want to be safe, but I also don't want to make it such a PITA to torch that I never want to do it.

laurellanestudios

2006-03-08, 4:45pm

Can I jump in with a question?

I'm guilty of keeping the propane tank in my attached garage. I'd like to have the tank put outside but have the guage and on/off valve inside. Who would I hire to do this...a plumber? Or, is this a do-it-yourself project for my somewhat handy husband?

Also, can the tank be just outside the house or should it be several feet away?

Thanks. Appreciate all the good info.

Dale M.

2006-03-08, 5:01pm

It could be a do it yourself job, IF the person doing is expierenced in gas piping... Best is probably to have plumber do it... Also check local building codes, it may have to have local building inspector check it when complete.

Dale

cherylsart

2006-04-09, 6:14pm

I see that it's ok to have these small bottles indoors. I have a spare bedroom that has a sliding glass door. I'll be starting out with a HH torch. If I put a fan at floor level pointing out the door, will that provide adequate ventilation? And should there also be a fan at a higher level for fumes from the torch itself?

Also, I live in a windy area. I am guessing that this would preclude working outside? I'm like the gal who lives in an apartment. No garage, but I do have a fenced back yard. I will probably be using the HH for awhile. Propane is a widely used fuel in this area. Many of the homes in our town run on propane rather than natural gas. I can get the larger tanks here. Did you say that I *can't* run a hose from the bbq tank through the sliding glass door from outside? If thats the case then I would opt to keep using the small bottles.

Thanks so much,

Cheryl in California

MikeAurelius

2006-04-10, 4:46am

No, you CAN run a hose through an open door to an outside fuel tank. This is a *temporary* installation, and it must be taken apart at the end of the session.

Remember you can only have a maximum of 2 (two) 1 pound tanks inside your house at any given time.

No, a fan pointed towards a door (or window) isn't sufficient ventilation. There are a lot of ventilation threads here in the safety forum...I strongly suggest that you read them.

cherylsart

2006-04-10, 8:47am

Thanks Mike. What about working outside? Also, if a fan pointing out the door won't work, is there anything that will? I rent my apartment so I can't go cutting holes in walls to install fans! I do have the option of setting up in my Dad's garage that has a line from the house propane supply into a place where I can set up a studio. It's an hour round trip so I really need to make sure this is something I want to do before I set up there. And I will read the threads on ventilation! Thanks again!

collectiblesbyrose

2006-04-17, 8:12am

Thanks to Dale, Mike, and Bill.....I have mine outside. DH still thinks it would be safe inside...sigh.

MikeAurelius

2006-04-18, 4:18am

Did you mention the insurance part to him - that if there is a fire/explosion, the insurance could/would be cancelled and no payout to you?

Dale M.

2006-04-18, 8:55am

.I have mine outside. DH still thinks it would be safe inside...sigh.

Have hubby look at this message thread...

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9844

Dale

Roseanne

2006-05-09, 11:20am

Cheddarlander

2006-05-10, 5:38pm

My tank is outside on the deck and plumbed into my basement studio. It took a long discussion to get my husband to drill that hole in the house but I'm happy he did. And the gas store was happy to lend advice and help so that it was done right. I feel safe in my studio and that piece of mind is worth a lot to me.

Karen

IF-Designs

2006-05-11, 5:57am

Here's another example of a 20lb propane tank in the house that just happened yesterday, here in Ohio... I wish you could see the pictures. It blew the back of the house off. Please be safe! http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/05/09/20060509-D10-01.html
wow the h eater he was using was meant to be used with the 1 lb cannisters and he hooked a 20lb tank to it at least thats what I get from the story. Thats so dangerous not only that but he could have died from carbon monoxide poisoning if the house had not exploded first! There was a horrible tragic incdent in my honme town a few years ago some kids were camping in a truck and used a propane heater in a closed up truck and all died from carbon monoxide poisoning :(

MikeAurelius

2006-05-11, 6:05am

Around here they call them 'fish house killers' during the ice fishing season. Every year there seems to be a handful of people who 'just don't get it' and die from CO poisoning with these things running full blast in a tightly sealed ice fishing shack.

At least here in MN, they do sell them so that they can be used with a 20# tank, heck, I've got one in my shed that I used when I was building my house - try running PVC and copper pipe when its below zero!

ChaoticGlass

2006-05-11, 11:52am

That guy was doing something he really shouldn't have.

I have a question while I'm here, I have a propane grill in the garage with a 20lb tank on it. My garage is under a bedroom in the house, and I was told by the community that I can't keep it outside. So it's okay to store it inside, as long as it's not used inside. Then I saw a neighbor in his garage grillin' away with the door open. These houses are villas so they share a common wall. When I said something, i was told it's ok b/c the door was open and the grill was only 2-3 ft away from it.
So would it be that bad to hook up a phantom and work 2-3 ft away from the door?

I am under the impression that a propane grill uses more BTU's than a phantom. And higher BTU's increases the chances of an exploding tank.
Is this correct?

Has anyone ever heard of a phantom blowing up a 20 lb propane cylinder?

Dale M.

2006-05-11, 5:40pm

Its not the BTU or anything to do with flame.... NFPA (National Fire Prevention Association) states "you shall not store any propane tanks larger that one pound in a residence". It also states "If garage is attached to house, its considered part of residence"... It has to do with the VOLUME of gas stored in container in residence (garage). Tell manager that storing the 20 tank in garage is illegal in almost every state in US... Have him go to library or fire department and look up NFPA Part 58 on rules for storing propane tanks. I think state and county and city law trumps managers (community) rules.

Dale

MikeAurelius

2006-05-11, 6:13pm

Tanks explode when they are impinged upon by open flame. Go back to page 1 and read the first post that started this thread. That is why it is unsafe and illegal to keep more than (2) one pound cylinders of propane inside a residence (be it single family or multiple family) or attached garage.

MikeAurelius

2006-05-19, 9:07am

No, it isn't reasonable, and despite what the fire marshall and the fireman said, keeping a 20# propane tank inside an attached garage is a violation of the fire code in every single state in the US.

If there is a fire and resulting explosion, the fact that you had a 20# propane tank in the garage is enough for the insurance company to void your insurance and not pay out on the claim.

You may also get sued by the fire department if there is any loss of property (fire trucks or equipment) or loss of life, and again, your property insurance company probably won't defend you on that either.

I don't know how many times its been said by me and others...

DO NOT KEEP YOUR PROPANE TANKS IN THE HOUSE OR AN ATTACHED GARAGE.

Stop trying to find ways around this, and just break down and do it the right and safe way, please!!!

ChaoticGlass

2006-05-19, 3:12pm

I probably shouldn't have even posted in the first place. To me it seems like the only examples of explosions that have been given are situations where the tanks are being misused. It's not possible for me to drill freaking holes in the walls and pipe the gas in, the community doesn't allow tanks to be stored outside. Property insurance won't even pay for hurricane damages, so there is no argument. MIKE: YOU DONT NEED TO USE CAPS, I'M PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF READING LOWERCASE LETTERS. When I blow my neighborhood up you'll be the first person to know. Why do you feel the need to try and make people feel ignorant for asking a question?

Juln

2006-05-19, 5:17pm

Yeah, propane in the house, what the heck!
If it blows up I was probably cursed by Satan and would have died some other way.
Mike Aurelius would be all thrilled if my house blew up anyway.

lindag

2006-05-20, 1:20am

I've read some of this thread and when I came to your last post Courtney, I shook my head and closed the window and walked away. I thought about what you said and I had to come back to write this. I couldn't not write, in all good conscience.

Accidents happen, equipment fails, s**t happens, it happens all the time, everyday to people like you and me. Are you really willing to risk your life and those of your loved ones, neighbors, etc.?

Picture this: A brand new full tank of propane or maybe it's a full tank that you swapped at the hardware store, sitting in your garage overnight. What you don't know is that the valve has a leak, a manufacturing defect perhaps. While you're upstairs snugly and smugly asleep, that tank is leaking. You get up in the morning and go to the garage and flip on the light switch and boom, you're dead - or so severely burned you wished you were. Whoever was upstairs with you might be dead too. Anyone nearby is injured by exploding debris or burns.

Mike knows what he's talking about, take his advice. It is illegal in every state of this country to have more propane than 2 one pound cannisters inside your house. It's the law for a reason. Maybe you just don't want to hear the truth because the truth doesn't work for you. Think of what you're risking. Think of what you've got to lose.

It comes down to this...if you can't do it right, don't do it. It's a simple concept, just not what you want to hear.

Dale M.

2006-05-20, 8:33am

Listen to Lindag and Mike and take heed to what they say!!!

Dale

MikeAurelius

2006-05-20, 5:25pm

Courtney -- forums like this exist for a reason - to spread information on the correct and legal way to do things.

We can't force you to do it the correct and legal way - that's your personal decision.

However - please keep in mind that if there is an "accident", insurance adjusters are going to be looking at internet websites like this, and they are going to see that those of us who know, have been giving the same advice over and over and over and over and over and over (ad infinitum)...

In the end, it's your decision about whether you put yourself, your family and neighbors at risk.

When I write in caps, it's always for emphasis. I don't shout, and I try not to make people feel ignorant, but when it comes up, I have to ask this: If we haven't said it enough, or in so many different ways, why are you taking offense at what I wrote, when you already knew in advance what I was going to write? Did you really think that you were going to get special dispensation because of your (not) special situation?

I'm sorry, but safety is the number one issue for me and Dale and many others. You may not like the message or the way it is delivered, but the message remains the same. We are trying to keep you and everyone else safe. You are under no obligation to follow our advice, but if you don't follow the advice, you are putting everything you own and those nearest and dearest to you at risk. If you can live with that, and those that live near you can live with that, fine...

Mr. Smiley

2006-05-21, 10:16am

I see peoples point about the propane being inside. I see why it's illegal and I don't condone keeping any tanks inside. I would also like to add a bit of advise for the safety freaks... don't drive a car. Accidents happen. Mechanical failure to your vehicle can cause an accident and you and your loved ones can DIE! My advise is to build a cement cube and get inside. Pay for food to be dropped in a hole daily, ahead of time. Maybe contact the meals on wheels in your area. Don't forget the bottom hole, you'll need some place to poop. My only point to stating this is... life is full of risks. You've stated your case for safety. Your points are valid. What people do from here is really up to them. Life is full of risks and some people are willing to take more than others. You've done your part, just stop short of stuffing it down peoples throats. :D

jokersdesign

2006-05-21, 10:31am

You know what I don't under stand about propane tanks in the house is almost everyone’s house I go to that is not into lampworking has 1 or more 20 lb propane tanks in their garage that is attached to the house.

Also at work in our warehouse the forklifts have 20 lb propane tanks on the back and this warehouse is on the small size no bigger then a 2500 sqft home.

So I would think this is just as big or even bigger safety hazard. Why are the city officials not cracking down on businesses and home owners?

MikeAurelius

2006-05-21, 10:35am

Commercial and industrial zonings have different code regulations than residential zonings.

As for the city officials not cracking down on residential codes - call city hall and find out!

lindag

2006-05-21, 2:13pm

I would also like to add a bit of advise for the safety freaks... don't drive a car. Accidents happen.

Yes, accidents do happen, that was my point. Also, it's legal to drive a car.

daisydog7

2006-05-21, 4:23pm

Mr. Smiley

2006-05-21, 4:56pm

I don't think you have to unhook it to be legal... just turn it off at the tank. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be corrected shortly. ;)

Mr. Smiley

2006-05-21, 4:57pm

Yes, accidents do happen, that was my point. Also, it's legal to drive a car.

If I only did what was legal, I'd not be having nearly as much fun! :lol:

jokersdesign

2006-05-21, 5:07pm

Commercial and industrial zonings have different code regulations than residential zonings.

As for the city officials not cracking down on residential codes - call city hall and find out!

Ok I understand Commercial and industrial zonings have different code regulations than residential zonings. But the safety issue is the same. If a forklift with a 20 lbs propane tank leaks it will explode and there will be people dead.

So it doesn’t make sense how just because it is a Commercial zone it is acceptable to have propane tanks inside when the danger is the same.

In fact the forklifts with propane tanks at work are stored in the warehouse over night. I would think that at least they would disconnect the propane tanks from the fork lifts and store then outside the warehouse.

Mike I did call the city where I live and I was told that I CAN have a 100 lbs propane tank inside my garage at all times connected to a garage heater as long as I have my garage vented. I was shocked that they did not say I would have to store the tank outside the house 10 ft away from any solid structure and have a pipe plumed into the garage connected to the heater.

So should I be concerned about my neighbor across the street from me that stores his BBQ gill inside his garage with a 20 lbs propane tank and when he grills he grills right in the middle of his garage instead of outside his garage?

would GOD think I'm not a good neighbor if I called the city officials.

Dale M.

2006-05-21, 8:16pm

One person posted hear that having an indoor tank that leaked would present a danger if someone turned a light on. I thought this gas was heavier than air and remained on the ground. If that is true, would a light on the ceiling ignite it? Outside I have an automatic light about 10 feet in the air, so is that a similar situation? Thanks for info, Pam

Actually its not the light fixture at ceiling.... Its the light switch on wall that is more likely to arc, and its only about 36-40 inches off floor. Alot closer to gas accumulation near floor... Then there is the pilot light on gas water heater..

Dale

Juln

2006-05-21, 10:43pm

if there is an "accident", insurance adjusters are going to be looking at internet websites like this, and they are going to see that those of us who know, have been giving the same advice over and over and over and over and over and over (ad infinitum)...

Okay, I can't help but question that. Why the hell would insurance adjusters care about what advice is being given on lampworking sites? It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to the insurance adjusters or actuaries. The suggestion seems bizarre to me.

MikeAurelius

2006-05-22, 4:53am

Brent - the hose would have have to be completely disconnected. Running a soft wall rubber hose through a vent opening is considered a temporary installation, and by the rules, has to be disconnected after every use. Simply turning off the valve is not enough.

Juln - it proves intent. If advise has been given AND IGNORED there is intent to defraud the insurance company. Insurance companies will look for any reason not to pay out on a claim.

ChaoticGlass

2006-05-22, 6:22am

Mike,
Insurance companies here in So. FL are dropping people because they don't want to pay to fix a roof, replace windows, rebuild walls, etc... They aren't going to play FBI and trace my IP address for the cache history. Perhaps my lax attitude stems from the fact that when June 1st rolls around people buy extra propane tanks for their grills, and more gas cans for their generators and where do the majority of people store it? In their garages. When they issue the statement that we are going to get hit, we all go to fill up those gas cans, not just 5 or 10 gallons, but a minimum of 30 gallons is average here if not conservative. EMS here tells us to chain our tanks (gas and propane) in an area that is sheltered from wind. For many, that's the garage or even in the house. I can't tell you how many houses burn down because people don't know how to fuel a generator, when they get power back up flames shoot out of them. Seriously, I'm more afraid of the guy across the street with a 60 gallon gas tank in his garage, that will be filled soon to run his gen. I'm not able to install the tank outside, so it's just going to come down to preparation. I run a fan on the ground constantly and the door stays open so the gas can disperse if I do pick up a leaky tank. I disconnected the automatic opener and I have a battery powered shop lamp. I know you're not going to condone this, and I'm not asking you to. I still feel like my set-up is twice as safe as the shop I worked in before, and that's all I have to say.

MikeAurelius

2006-05-22, 6:57am

Running a fan on the floor where propane could pool is about the worst thing you can do - if propane should leak, the electrical fan will most likely ignite the propane. All it takes is a small spark...

If you are going to do this, get the fan off the floor and at least 3 feet above the floor blowing down and out.

ChaoticGlass

2006-05-22, 7:10am

Ok, I'll do that. I was concerned with the fan not being low enough, so I put it on the floor. I also started looking for battery powered fans (for in my house too) does anyone know where I can find some?

jokersdesign

2006-05-23, 1:46pm

why don't you just use a 2 lb propane tank.

smutboy420

2006-06-06, 5:10am

So how come the jewelry store can have a big canister of propane sitting right there next to the jewelers bench.

and
at work in our warehouse the forklifts have 20 lb propane tanks on the back

I'm going to problely get flamed for this.
But the reason you can have a tank on a fork lift inside or by a jewelers bench. or By your glass blowing bench.
Is because its pefectly legal in most places to USE propane indoors.
Every one is getting storage and use confused.
You are not allowed to STORE it inside. But you are allowed to USE propane inside in most places that I am aware of.

They don't make you run a big hose from your fork lift to the outside. But un used tankes are supposed to be stored outside in most places.
the reasone they don't have to be unhooked at night from a fork lift or from your torch or a jewelers torch. Is because its considered in use when its hooked up even if its not running.

MikeAurelius

2006-06-06, 6:16am

Uh, no. Under the NPFA rules, you can have a maximum of 2 (two) one-pound cannisters in use or in storage in a residence. A 20# bbq tank exceeds the NFPA rules by a considerable amount for a residence.

The quotes above are all commercial/industrial use, and those rules are very different from residential rules. A lot of jewelers use acetylene, which is a far different gas (behavior-wise) from propane (although some jewelers do use propane).

Dale M.

2006-06-06, 7:35am

To further expand on what Mike said...."Use" and "storage" are synonymous terms as to where propane tanks may be paced in residence... Propane powered forklifts are usually in rather open ventilated warehouse situations, and propane tanks in jewelry stores are usually classified under a business setting... All three situations, residence, warehouse and business are covered by a different set of NFPA rules as to how propane can be stored & used...

Dale

Juliac

2006-06-07, 1:29pm

Thank you for this post everyone! I have moved my tank outsode with a temporary hose running through a window. I know you referenced a rubbermaid tank holder and I saw the one on it's side. Is there one rubbermaid makes or one someone makes to keep it contained and prying minds out if it?

MikeAurelius

2006-06-07, 3:53pm

As long as the lid closes, it really doesn't matter which particular model, or even manufacturer.

ChaoticGlass

2006-06-07, 6:29pm

Julia,
Put a BIOHAZARD sticker on the outside and noone will want anything to do with it. I get mine from home depot, the one I go to has a ton of different sizes and I even have one for my rolls of wrapping paper.

Juliac

2006-06-10, 7:57pm

Thanks guys, will do!

MikeAurelius

2006-06-11, 6:02am

NO Do NOT put a BIOHAZARD sticker on it - you will have neighbors and the city on your butt. DO put a PROPANE sticker on it.

danelady

2006-06-11, 5:24pm

He isn't TRYING to make you feel ignorant Courtney, he is TRYING to make you LISTEN, as you are obviously unwilling to do, and possible save your life DESPITE yourself (you and or anyone else who insists on keeping propane tanks inside).The life you take may be someone WE love!I probably shouldn't have even posted in the first place. To me it seems like the only examples of explosions that have been given are situations where the tanks are being misused. It's not possible for me to drill freaking holes in the walls and pipe the gas in, the community doesn't allow tanks to be stored outside. Property insurance won't even pay for hurricane damages, so there is no argument. MIKE: YOU DONT NEED TO USE CAPS, I'M PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF READING LOWERCASE LETTERS. When I blow my neighborhood up you'll be the first person to know. Why do you feel the need to try and make people feel ignorant for asking a question?

danelady

2006-06-11, 5:48pm

Julia, Just buy a cheap Rubbermaid type Box that the propane tank will fit into. Cut a hole in the Bottom for the hose, then stand it up on one of the small ends, put your tank in, run the hose in, then place the lid on! Vpila!:love: Thank you for this post everyone! I have moved my tank outsode with a temporary hose running through a window. I know you referenced a rubbermaid tank holder and I saw the one on it's side. Is there one rubbermaid makes or one someone makes to keep it contained and prying minds out if it?

nlinaz

2006-06-17, 4:47pm

I have a question about storing the propane tank outside in container. I will be putting the tank on my patio outside my sliding glass doors with the hose running through a doggy door. I am in Arizona and the afternoon sun will be on the patio, temps up to 115+ in the sun. Is it ok to keep in sun?? I have nosey neighbors that see everything, and no shed to store in. Thanks
Nancy

MikeAurelius

2006-06-17, 5:47pm

Not a problem, however, if you keep it in a rubbermaid or equivalent container, it will be shaded and out of the sun.

One thing that's fairly important is to keep as much of the T grade house OUT of direct sun as possible - sunlight will breakdown the hose over time - several years, but you should still keep the exposure to a minimum.

nlinaz

2006-06-17, 6:55pm

I'll probably get a Rubbermaid trash can, 33 gallon size. Is just a hole for the hose enough or should I make many? Also should the lid be on tight or loose?
I spoke to 2 bbq stores today, one said it was ok to store tank in garage the other said no way! And I'm gonna get an outdoor shade to block my side neighbors. Thanks everyone and esp. you Mike!

MikeAurelius

2006-06-18, 5:11am

Not in the garage, if it is attached to the house.

Remember that anytime you put propane into an enclosed container, trash can or deck box or whatever: drill holes in the bottom in case of a leak - the propane will seep out and not build up. You can use screen to keep mice and insects out. Drill a hole in the side or route the hose out the top, but make sure the hose cannot be squeezed or abraided.

Also, if it isn't obvious that there is a propane tank inside the enclosure, NFPA code states that there has to be a sign on the container indicating that there is propane inside. This will alert the fire department to take the necessary steps in case of a fire.

I'd put the lid on tight, just to ensure it isn't blown away in windy conditions. If there are holes in the bottom and side, the lid can be tight without a problem.

tiggybubba

2006-07-21, 1:33pm

Ok I have now completely rethought my potential set up (I say potential as I dont have my torch yet). My plan was to do this outdoors in the open carport until winter and then take the tank indoors when I wanted to use it in the second story spare room. Ok I get it...not a good idea!@

My question? Can I run my torch in that bedroom with the tank outside on the ground and run a hose (it would be about 10-15') from that tank up to the second floor? After each session turning off the gas, draining the lines and putting it all away? I cannot drill holes in my garage (no room in there anyways!) as the strata will not let me.

Or barring that, If I bundle up real well, can I continue to torch outside when its cold? I do not have a kiln yet but hope to before the end of the year. I was going to do the crockpot and vermiculite method and batch anneal. Will the beads crack in the cold air?

I would rather not do it outside year round. It can get pretty nasty in the winter here. Very windy (for good ventilation) but very wet and miserable.

I look forward to your suggestions.

Thanks again.
Leslie F

LazyLizard

2006-07-30, 12:08am

NO Do NOT put a BIOHAZARD sticker on it - you will have neighbors and the city on your butt. DO put a PROPANE sticker on it.

Howdy Mike and Dale! I have a rubbermaid cannister over my 60lb tank - outside of course - it has a flip-top lid (which I stick the hose in when I use it) and the bottom is cut off with several holes cut in the back for even more ventilation. Pretty much it looks like a trashcan, I read one of your posts earlier and saw where if there is a problem the fire dept. needs to see the tank so I thought I would get a Mapp sticker and put it on it, this is okay right? Where would I get one? Thanks! Jodi

Dale M.

2006-07-30, 8:39am

Howdy Mike and Dale! I have a rubbermaid cannister over my 60lb tank - outside of course - it has a flip-top lid (which I stick the hose in when I use it) and the bottom is cut off with several holes cut in the back for even more ventilation. Pretty much it looks like a trashcan, I read one of your posts earlier and saw where if there is a problem the fire dept. needs to see the tank so I thought I would get a Mapp sticker and put it on it, this is okay right? Where would I get one? Thanks! Jodi

Check local safety product suppliers (check yellow pages) or some on line sites, there are a bunch of sites that sell biohazard and other hazard stickers...

Quick GOOGLE search for "hazard signs LP gas" turned up...

http://www.compliancesigns.com/
http://www.prattsafety.com.au/safety_signs
http://www.emedco.com/prodGroupSTgrid.asp?dept_id=2021
http://www.graphicproducts.com/signs/signs023c.html

And many more...

I would think something as simple as "DANGER PROPANE" would be good as a "minimal" warning.... Propane has same properties as MAPP so its serves same purpose. Even if its not technically accurate.

Dale

LazyLizard

2006-07-30, 5:53pm

Sweet! Thanks Dale! Jodi

danelady

2006-07-31, 8:24am

I went to the ComplianceSigns.com site and ordered Adhesive "DANGER Propane" Stickers!
Here is my invoice FYI
Order Number: 7356 Quantity:Name:SKU:Each:Total:1ODE-5385 - PROPANE ODE-5385$12.00$12.00 Label 5x3.5 (4pk) [-5L] $12.00 Subtotal:$12.00

joey301

2006-08-15, 11:50am

In the past several weeks I have been reading about the dangers of having propane indoors, which I did. I work in my garage. I have moved my propane tank (around 20lb) outdoors. I am on a canal and my garage has flood vents on three sides. I have run the hose through one of these vents. The tank is right outside the garage, and the hose runs probably three feet to my torch. Now, if I understand correctly, if I unhook the hose at the end of each session, I am legal. Do I have to unhook at both ends, or only on the outdoors (the tank)? Will this be excessive wear and tear on the fittings and the hose?
I am presently using a Hothead, but am soon to switch to a Minor torch. I have all equipment except the oxygen generator and should have than within a month or two. Will the system using the Minor torch be a safer system. It will have a flashback arrestor but my present system does not.
This is all so confusing, and when I started making beads 6 months ago I didn't realize an indoor tank was illegal. Yes I have the Cindy Jenkins book.
One person posted hear that having an indoor tank that leaked would present a danger if someone turned a light on. I thought this gas was heavier than air and remained on the ground. If that is true, would a light on the ceiling ignite it? Outside I have an automatic light about 10 feet in the air, so is that a similar situation? Thanks for info, Pam

I have been reading this site for a while today and I am finding better safety info here than anywhere else I have looked. I use acetylene and I have the small MC tank in my basement. I am very concerned about safety and I have some questions:
1. Where can I go to find out exactly what I need to make my house safe while having the tank in the house?
2. I do have a window in the basemen, but who is the best group (plumbers, HVAC people) to get to come to my house and install an outside configuration?
3. I saw this here...isn't the wear and tear on the system from tightening and untightening the tank to take it outside and then back inside creating an unsafe situation due to wear and tear?
4. Are small tanks safer to use? Is there a size that is ok to be inside?
5. If I get in touch with some safety inspector, will they arrest me for having a tank in my house?
6. Can I get a rider on my house for additional insurance protection?

I am new to this group, and my primary interest is silver smithing, but this seems so appropriate to my concerns are there seems to be a very good discussion here. So thanks to all of you.
Joey

Dale M.

2006-08-15, 4:15pm

Acetylene comes under different safety category than Propane/MAPP/Propylene. It is lighter than air there for it rises and dissipates in a room so if you have any ventilation its safer.... BUT I still do not recommend tank with anything flamable in basement or in rest of house for that matter... It should stay outside all the time. Period. Besides why would you want to lug tank(s) up and down stairs when ever you change tanks anyway...

http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/Acetylene.pdf

Tank and regulator fittings (threads) are made to be connected/disconnected when ever necessary. Its the nature of the beast. If you ever wear them out they are replaceable....

The only acceptable propane/MAPP for inside storage are the 1 pound tanks and NFPA stipulates only 2 inside at any time.....

IF you get in touch with safety inspector chances are he/she will not understand your questions and if you can't explain your situation satisfactorily to them they will probably not arrest you but will probably shut your work down till they are satisfied your have safe conditions.....

As who is best Plumber or HVAC personnel is like a coin toss, it all depends on whether the technician is capable or qualified to do what ever it is you want...

Dale

FourTailsLampwork

2006-08-18, 7:32am

Okay, Mike and Dale, you will both be happy to know that this beginning beadmaker is changing her garage set-up because of this thread. My garage is attached (though separated from the house by a 11' square screened pass-though), so I don't want to keep the propane inside it. My garage has of course the car door, a regular door leading to the screened pass-through, which leads to the house, and on the other side, two windows. I had my table set up on the side of the garage nearest the door with the propane tank in a Rubbermaid container on the other side of the wall in the pass-through, but I am changing my set up to having the workstation on the window side, with the propane outside the window. I will run my Hot Head hose through the window and bleed lines and disconnect after every session (which I do anyway, because propane scares me green). (Plus the fan sits in the window and pulls fumes away from my face, and there's another fan as well, and the fan ensures that there is no pinching of the rubber line.) Plumbing in a line is not practical at this time because I have my house on the market, and as I look for a new house I am also looking with an eye toward safe lampworking sites. There (if I continue lampworking) I will either have a qualified plumber install the lines or my VERY capable and up-to-code working BIL do it (if I can ever drag him up to Georgia). The container is labeled--$9 for a sticker and $9 for shipping seemed excessive, so I downloaded an official propane warning image from the OSHA site, printed it on my color printer, and enclosed it in thin plastic (transparency film works great--in fact, I printed a couple stickers ON transparency film!) and taped that to the container.

My question is this: The pass through is totally ventilated and totally shaded, but the window side of the garage is also the side that gets full afternoon sun. Here in hot, humid Georgia enclosed containers may shade their contents, but even with proper ventilation the heat inside them can get quite high. So placing my BBQ tank in a vented Rubbermaid container might shield it from the direct sun, but not from the heat. How high ambient heat is too high? Will it make the tank explode?

A friend lost his wife recently in a freak fire--she plugged in a heating pad, dialled it up high, and it exploded in her face. The resulting fire took out the entire back of their house--and their pets. I had always cherished the fantasy that animals would get out of a burning house if a suitable door was provided--I always have a cat-door for mine--but reality is that they will often hunker down under something like a bed and die of smoke inhalation. So I ask because I don't want to be come a crispy critter, or lose any of my "children"--Mincot, Bellacoolah, Molly T., and of course the handicapable (i.e. paralyzed in rear) Welsh Corgi, Piglet.

Dale M.

2006-08-18, 8:38am

Sorry to hear about your friend.....

At ambient temperature of the air surrounding the tank will definitely have a effect on internal pressure of tank . As propane heats it vaporizes more gas off the liquid in tank thusly increasing internal pressure. BUT think about this, there are thousands of tanks all over the world in harsh environments from freezing cold to blazing desert heat and there is very little problem with the tank bursting from the internal pressures.

This site will give you a chart as to what internal pressures are in tank at approximate ambient temperatures....

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

Federal regulations require any tank to meet certain criteria and one is bursting pressure. I can't find exact data but at this time I know its quite high and there is no danger of your tank bursting from internal pressure unless there is some defect in manufacturing process when tank was made or it is severely rusted or damaged since its manufacture.

Here is huge DOCUMENT on propane tanks and valve.....

Propane council document (http://www.propanecouncil.org/files/10202_Battelle_Cylinder_Report_Final.pdf#search=%2 2propane%20tank%20bursting%20pressure%22)

Buried deep in document is statements about pressure relieve valve in tank valve and its ability to release internal pressures if inter tank pressure become in excess of 240psi.... Remember venting propane from excess pressure in tank will cause propane gas to be in area of tank so it should have some free space (vented enclosure ok) so it can dilute into surrounding atmosphere to a level where it is not dangerous....

Dale

MikeAurelius

2006-10-17, 12:32pm

-- bump --

Hayley

2006-10-17, 2:12pm

Thank you, Mike, for bumming this thread up. It took a while to get through all eight pages but I read it all! I am upgrading from my HH and have been reading everything I could on safety - propane storage, ventilation, intake air, etc. I appreciate everyone's input and advice and want to thank you all for helping us newbies do things safely.

Mike, as soon as I draw up my studio layout, I will post something re: ventilation and ask for your advice. Still deciding on which torch - MiniCC, Bobcat, Minnow. . . there are so many choices. I will get an oxycon from Kimberly, a Glasscraft hood, get a stainless steel enclosure fabricated, use non-flexible ducting for ventilation, gets holes drilled for hood and propane pipe with two valves.

Boy, this hobby is a lot of work! . . . and I am loving it!

Hayley

MikeAurelius

2006-10-17, 2:39pm

No problem Hayley. When I saw that someone was asking about this issue, I thought it was time for a bump.

Just let me know when you are ready!

allstar

2006-10-20, 12:40pm

Mike, Dale and all...I feel very very lucky today (and overwhelmed)...I am at a point in the "set up", where i can do the BEST things when it comes to Safety. I read every word in this thread, and was awake most of the night, going over it. I appreciate the info so much and ONLY wish there was a "Checklist or Things to do first list for Beginners", It should be required reading at the top of the site (every site) and would listed all the "must figure out first" things. It would have given me much greater pause before starting and I have been reserching this for over a year.
For some of us it's much easier to look at the "pretty beads" and glass, our creative side takes over and we buy all the "stuff" and then, worry about the rest later. Not good.
This is not a craft/hobby you "jump" into and I wonder how many would if they realized they were not in a place where they could or should be messing with propane.
Well my new motto, Better to learn than Burn... you're welcome to use it:) , maybe it should be the title of the "Beginner To do (first) list"!
Vickie

Dale M.

2006-10-20, 4:47pm

O:) O:) O:) O:) O:)

Dale

MikeAurelius

2006-10-21, 4:18am

Thank you Vickie - we try hard.

I'm glad you brought this up actually - it's one of the things I routinely bang my head up against the wall over. This is not an inexpensive hobby. And unfortunately, when someone gets 'the bug', they want to jump in and start producing, and completely overlook the safety factor.

Safety isn't cheap. Especially if you have to something over to make it right.

For example: plan on spending a minimum of about $4-500 on ventilation. Apart from kilns and torches, ventilation is the most expensive item of the safety-related issues. Eyewear is next.

Fire extinguishers, fire blankets (does anyone have one? I do!), first aid kits with special burn equipment. Propane safety. Oxygen safety.

The list goes on and on.

PixieFireBeads

2006-10-28, 3:41pm

Okay, so I have to admit I am one of those people who was not going to change my setup no matter what anyone said. Propane in the house and an open window with a fan. That was it, I was set, until my husband said he smelled burnt propane. He has COPD and while I can be cavalier about my health I can't be about his.

So today we put a fan in the wall with a vent cover and a register, at 300 cfm it should change the air in my room one time every 5 minutes. The fan we picked up is better than any of the hoods we were looking at. We've got it set up optimally and I moved my tank outside. I figured if I was going to make big holes in my new siding a little hole didn't matter.

Now I'm wondering if I need to do anything to protect the propane tank. There is an area outside of town where people use propane predominantly for everything and I see these big tanks sitting out there without cover or anything and they seem to be fine no matter what the weather. I'm sure the tank will be okay but I'm worried about my regulator. Is there anything I need to do to protect it?

Any comments would be appreciated, thanks.

Ez

Edits: He says is 500 cfm not 300, I got that backwards. But I just told him I thought maybe it still needed to be bigger, he said we can add another fan.

MikeAurelius

2006-10-30, 5:00am

Use an outside storage box - Rubbermaid makes them, as do others.

Using room air changes is not a good way to calculate ventilation - for our purposes (lampworking), you should have a hood of some kind to trap the fumes and exhaust them outside. CFM is based on the size of the hood, not the size of the room.

Using just an exhaust fan in a window does not remove the fumes in front of you and from the torch - it just pulls the air from the general room...

swanseafarm

2006-10-30, 6:53am

Mike and/or Dale,

I have been told that getting fresh air into the room while torching is as important as the exhaust, and if you have to choose one, fresh air intake should be done first. Right now I am revamping my studio space which is now in my living room and is about 20' x 26' and very open. I have fresh air circulating and coming directly from outside, and my Oxy con is run outside. The propane tank is ALWAYS outside. My exhaust to the outside is not hooked up at this time. I won't be able to hook up the exhaust fan for a couple more months. I typically torch 2 - 3 hours at a time sometimes 3 times a day and probably 4 - 5 days a week. So far I am not ever smelling gas or getting headaches or other negative symptoms. I know this is not a safe scenario but there is nothing I can do about it for the time being. Is drawing in all the fresh air from outside as possible while working under these less than desirable conditions keeping me as safe as possible? I know several other lampworkers that work under similar conditions that have no problems. They all work in big open areas with lots of windows and fresh air being pulled in constantly. I don't want to push my luck though. [-o<

MikeAurelius

2006-10-30, 7:37am

Bonnie - that's a popular misconception, I'm afraid.

Exhaust should always be done first. You can always open a door or window to get fresh air in, but you can't get all the bad stuff OUT without a good vent system.

A lot of times, it is realy easy to just do both at the same time - you are running ducts for the exhaust, and you have all the materials and tools available at the same time. Ducting for intake should only run about 25-30% of the exhaust ducting (roughly speaking).

I would strongly encourage you to reconsider hooking up the exhaust system, even if you have to (temporarily) run flex duct and out a nearby window - SOME exhaust is better than none.

The biggest issue that you are contending with is NOX (nitrogen oxides). These have a very distinctive sulphur/skunk like odor, but you don't notice them while you are torching - it will be people who walk into the room from outside who will notice it first.

NOX will affect your lungs, sinus membranes, and may also give you a good case of 'red eye'.

You have to collect and draw these fumes out of the room and outside -- simply circulating them around the room may temporarily dispurse them, but they will build up in concentration and then you will start to get ill.

swanseafarm

2006-10-30, 7:57am

MikeAurelius

2006-10-30, 7:59am

No problem Bonnie, that's what Dale and I are here for.

PixieFireBeads

2006-10-30, 11:26am

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to the Home Depot to look for a storage box this morning.

In regards to the fan, it's not a fan in the window. It's a fan in the wall directly in front of the torch. When the door is shut a vacuum is created and pulls air from a window across the room. We tried it out last night, with both the torch and the kiln going; our daughter who generally screams about the smell of anything walked in and didn't even realize I had the torch on.

When we started we looked at hoods and didn't feel there was enough power, of course we were just looking at kitchen hoods. We saw an exhaust setup for Island Glass and Box in a video and decided to call the grow guy to get a good fan to do something similar to what she did.

Is it optimal, probably not. For the moment we are pleased that it is better than it was and we've been discussing hoods since before the project was complete (which is when I actually started researching it and found the wealth of information you guys have here about the subject). Yes, I'm a tard, never professed not to be, I prefer looking at the pretty pictures of beads!

I'm sure our *second* ventilation project isn't far off and will be more conventional. In any event I'm glad to get the damned propane out of the house!

Jim Moore Tools

2006-10-31, 10:15am

Not only is propane dangerous so are unchained oxygen bottles. If you knock one over with out the cap on it there is a chance that the top will shear off. This is spectacular, most often it acts like a rocket clearing a nice path and shooting through brick walls. They can also disintegrate into little pieces of flying metal but I think this is rare. Always keep the cap on the bottle when it is not in use, it does not matter if it is empty. The valve is fragile and bottles do explode when being filled think about the next person to have the bottle or the person who has to fill it up. Chain your bottles it is like wearing a seat belt. Jim

Dale M.

2006-10-31, 11:07am

Good point, Jim.

Dale

janetcameron

2006-11-01, 7:44am

OK - I am new and just learning, and have the BBQ tank in my cellar. I DO have propane outside that I use for cooking. Will my propane company know what to do to run a line for my torch? I have been reading about one shut off valve outside and another by the torch. How do I do this? Is there something that describes exactly what I need done? THanks. I really appreciate these threads and read them religiously.

MikeAurelius

2006-11-01, 7:47am

I would suggest that you have the propane company do this work for you. They know the requirements for such types of installations and can do it safely.

It can also be done by a plumber, but I'd suggest you talk to your propane company first.

janetcameron

2006-11-01, 8:07am

Thanks

Dale M.

2006-11-01, 8:55am

Bob Torbett

2006-11-13, 11:28am

Just to show some of the problems of leaking propane. I had a customer in the home improvement store where I work part time. He had a propane leak and finally tracked it down to a crack in the fitting to the tank. Had that been inside his rv, he may not be here today to talk about it. The -O- ring on the fitting was worn out and he over tightened the fitting to the tank causing it to crack without his knowing about it. I may be wrong, but I think this is just one of many issues that caused the change-over to the new style connections for propane.

Bob

evolvingBeau

2006-11-17, 11:31am

The need to keep propane gas tanks outside is made very clear in this thread, but it's all null and void if you don't regularly check your plumbing/hoses for leaks and/or don't remember to always shut off the gas at the tank when you're not working.
Having the tank outside solves the exploding TANK issue but if you have a leak you're still pumping flammable gas into an enclosed space, which is the way that explosions happen in the first place...LEAKS..
You can buy leak detector solution (just a surfactant liquid with a swab in the bottle) or use some little really soapy water swabbed liberally around the thread area of each and every connection looking for any bubbles. You will either need to tighten, add teflon tape or replace any leaky connections.
You also want to check to make sure your valves on the torch itself are closing properly, this is all just as important (if not more-so) as where you keep your P-tank.
If this has already been mentioned then good, there are so many pages in this thread that repetition is not a bad thing.
Beau

Dale M.

2006-11-17, 3:17pm

Good argument for practice of bleeding lines down when done with torch session .. Ensures tanks are really tuned OFF at end of session...

Dale

cherie

2006-11-21, 11:21am

How far should the propane be from your working area outside/??

MikeAurelius

2006-11-21, 11:34am

Doesn't really matter. For large bulk tanks, say in excess of 100 gallons, I believe that NFPA says they should be at least 15 feet from any structure. Smaller tanks can be anywhere. I'd keep it near a doorway if possible so you can get to it easily.

It's always a good idea to protect the tank in some fashion so that it isn't always exposed to the elements and the prying eyes of neighbors...

La Bianca

2006-12-14, 5:33pm

Dale asked, why install the propane tank in the house.

I have it next to my desk in the house. It's a bit scary, but when it's outside it's scary also. I read that propane tanks are sensitive for cold and warm. (correct me if i am wrong)
And if you leave the tank outside with warm weather and in the cold that thats not very safe then.

It's difficult for me to install the tank outside. In the winter i need to keep the window open to hang the hose outside and i have to climb outside the window to turn the propane tank open and climb back in. See left on the picture. The Propane tank is on the right. I have an propane alarm it's hanging under my desk.

I would like to build an savety box for inside the house where the tank could be placed in. But what material must be used. When a tank explode it has so much force, its scared to 'work like this. But i can't see another option.

I am sorry for my bad English writing. I do my best.

http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/376/werkplekxg2.jpg

Dale M.

2006-12-14, 9:13pm

I give up.... 242 message to get to this point and all or most have something to say how wrong it is to have propane in the studio/residence and people still ask why.....

Dale

La Bianca

2006-12-15, 3:27am

I did not asked why Dale!

I ask if there is an sort of safetytank for in the house. I know lot's of company's who work inside with propane. In a camperhome the propane tank hanging outside the mobile home. When its explode it's probebly also makes an lot of damage inside. I try to ask if there is anoher option.

Also there is no answere over the hot en cold issue. Propane does not love hot or cold weather. And whe you have your propane outside the house its open to hot and cold. Is that so safe? How do others think of that?

MikeAurelius

2006-12-15, 5:22am

There is no safe way to keep propane in your house. Period. End of discussion.

There is NO SUCH THING as a safe box for propane. Propane will explode and level a house and no box could ever contain the blast.

Propane is neutral to hot and cold air temperatures. When it is hot outside the pressure in the tank rises slightly. When it is cold outside the pressure in the tank drops a bit. It is not a safety issue. The issue is protecting the regulator from the weather. I live in Minnesota. My weather is probably as extreme as yours is -- we routinely get 95+ degrees F in the summer and -30 F in the winter. I torch year round. My tank is outside, kept in a plastic storage box to protect the regulator.

There are lots of commercial businesses that use propane indoors as well -- but the difference is the size of the building and the amount of fresh air in the building. A propane tank on a forklift can leak, and most likely the propane will not explode because of the size of the interior space. A propane tank in a room of a house can leak and most likely it WILL explode because of the small size of the interior space. It all has to do with concentration of fumes.

On a mobile home, the tank is OUTSIDE. If there is a leak, it will leak to the atmosphere and there is little chance of an explosion.

Please. For your sake, and that of your family, get the propane tank OUT of your house.

La Bianca

2006-12-15, 3:42pm

Thank you very much Dale for the information.

I am going to think of a way to take it outside the house. It's gonna be an huge problem because i live in an appartment on the first floor with no Balcony. :|

MikeAurelius

2006-12-15, 4:12pm

Living in an apartment makes it even more imperative that it be outside. Do you realize that you are putting the entire building at risk?

Here in the US, it is fairly generally accepted that people who live in apartment buildings should stick with either natural gas -or- a hot head torch with one pound propane/MAPP gas tanks. Bulk propane tanks and apartment living are not a good combination.

La Bianca

2006-12-16, 6:11pm

Thank you Mike,

My explanation whas not so good.

I life in a apartment on the first floor but there are not living people above me or underneath me. I live above an old cow stable and there are no animals or people besides me and my partner and my doggie.

What you say about propane is neutral to hot or cold you are very right.
But how about the tank, when not used for a few months, it most get rusty. Or how about the the gas hose. Look at your hose after an month hanging outside an window with an tempature of 35 degree celcius..or lots of cold. I heard some people are hanging the hose outside the window. That's not so safe eather.

I get an inspection of the fire department this week and wait what they are saying.

Everytime you buy an new propane tank make sure it's bought from an good company. Never use a secondhand tank. Make sure the hoses are in mint condition. Check with soap always before you start working if there are no leaks in the hose and check with soap the fittings. Have good ventilation and only work when you are in good condition yourself. Stay allert. I also have an propane alarm hanging just above the floor.

I am not some dummy, and i am not crazy. I work as save as i can. I also called my insurance company and let them now what kind of work i am doing and it whas no problem. I diddent even have to raise the insurance. So i only have to wait for the fire department to check my indoor beadmaking room.

Most beadmakers in Holland have their propane tank in the house, and it's good to know that there have been no accidents. Just work as save as you can. I don't hope i get someone frustrated again. I just wanted to say my thing here. I think it must be possible on a forum like this. If there are discussions about things like this it's an good thing. It makes people allert and think more about their safety. Don't be mad at me for this.

There whas in an newspaper last week that an man had been blownup in his car. His wife and he had just visit an secondhand market and he bought himself a propane tank.
He put in the back of his car and his wife whas getting more stuff as the man whas waiting for her in his car. The propane tank exploded in his car. The guy is dead. But what whas in that tank...whas it propane you don't know...second hand. How old whas the tank. Most accidents happens with old tanks. So make sure to buy good and new ones everytime you buy a propane tank.