Pre-Mix and Surface Mix

[Cindy2]

Hi All,

I've got a very specific question regarding pre-mix and surface mix torches. I have a minor which is a surface mix but I'm thinking of purchasing the Nortel midrange with the pre-mix tip mounted on top.

When I light the minor, I turn on the propane first then add the oxy. Do I do anything differently with a pre-mix? At the end of a session, when I bleed my hoses and I POOP (oxy off first then propane) - should I do something different or POOP is fine?

Thanks for your comments.

Cindy

[Dale M.]

Nope.... You procedures are the same no matter what torch type...

Dale

[Cindy2]

Okey dokey! Thanks, Dale!

[mary1_$]

I have a nortel major premix top w/ blk. Can I just use the minor on top and not fool with the major till I need a bigger one? Sounds stupid dont it. I just dont want to use the major now but may want it later.

[Cosmo]

Yep. They have separate knobs, so you can operate the two independently of each other. The torch I teach on is a Mid-Range with a premix top, and I only run the premix when teaching.

[Cindy2]

Hey Cosmo,

What do you run your midrange on? Tanked oxy? I've heard that the premix burner can be reducing - what's your experience?

Thanks,
Cindy

[Cosmo]

I run it on two Devilbiss concentrators (the ones we have on sale right now). It runs well. I'm using both the single tip and 7 port tip. Of course no concentrators are as good as tanked oxygen, but for teaching pendants and smaller marbles it does nicely.

[Leanne]

I noticed on your website you make lots of softglass beads?
i may be wrong but I thought pre mix was not good to use for soft glass? It's pretty much for boro people?
I work both boro and soft glass. I use both the minor surface mix and the midrange for boro and use the minor for soft glass.
If you work soft glass I would say definitely do not get the premix top get the same torch I have midrange w/ minor top and you wont be dissapointed!

[Cindy2]

Hi Leanne,

Thanks for the comments. Not sure if you were talking to me or Cosmo but I'll assume it's me! LOL! Yes, I work soft glass but I want to upgrade to work with boro - I have a pretty good stash of boro that I don't use because the minor is slow for boro. I want a torch that can melt the boro a bit quicker but I don't want to give up the soft glass. So that's why I asked about the premix top torch. I could have the minor set up and a midrange with the premix top.

I wondered if anyone found the pre-mix flame reducing - probably should start a different thread for that question!

Cindy

[pam]

Hi Cindy, I once heard from a real pro that when using a pre-mix torch, instead of POOP, you should use POPO. This eliminates a lot of the popping that you get with pre-mix torches.

With regard to the flame chemistry of pre-mixes versus surfaces mixes, pre-mixes are more reductive and do not do as well with soft glass. Also, developing colors with hard glass is much harder. It can be done, but is much harder. This is just my experience from working as TA for Suellen Fowler for a couple of years. I believe the pre-mix torches work really well for clear boro.

[Cindy2]

Thanks, Pam! I'm hearing that the flame on a premix is reducing - it's good for me to know because that could cause a huge disappointment for me.

I know it's not that you can't work with a reducing flame - afterall look at all the beautiful work that gets done on hotheads and I have a friend who uses propane only and her white and colors are gorgeous. But if you're going to use a reducing flame, you need to be prepared for it.

Thanks for the tip on POPO too.

Cindy

[Cosmo]

For me, it's not so much the flame chemistry as it is the heat of the pre-mix. My Nortel pre-mix I can run cooler and work soft glass without burning it up. My Carlisle pre-mix I can't do that. I know some people like Paul Stankard use a CC for soft glass, but us mere mortals don't seem to have the same touch that he does.

[pam]

I agree, Cosmo. Paul uses a Carlisle - or at least he did when I took a class with him, but I also think that with the tiny flame he uses it doesn't seem to make a difference. Hey, I think he could use a candle and still come out with fantastic art!!

[Cindy2]

So what you're saying, Cosmo is that you burn up the glass not so much that the premix is reducing but that it's too hot. Am I right?

I would really love to just test out some of these torches but I won't be going to the Gathering and I don't know anyone locally who has anything other than hotheads and minors. I want something with heat for the boro and a wider flame for bigger beads and sculpture.

It's been over a year I've been trying to decide - I don't make a quick decision, do I? LOL!

Cindy

[Cosmo]

No. I run a neutral flame. But it's hotter than a surface mix, so it tends to boil the glass.

[Cindy2]

Thanks for the reply, Cosmo! I didn't word the statement clearly so it was confusing But your answer was perfect! The premix is hot - that's what I'm looking for - thanks muchy!

Cindy

[Leanne]

To be honest cindy I would sell your minor and buy a midrange with a minor top. What you will then have is exactly what I have. i use the minor for my soft glass and boro beads. i then switch on the midrange if I want to make boro pendants etc. The minor does have a lot of power.
Then you only need the one torch. between the midrange and the minor on top you will have everything you need for your softglass and boro needs unless you want to make really big boro stuff.

[Leanne]

I guess it's up to you though. have you tried a midrange before ??? Maybe try someones midrange/minor combo and you will see what I mean it is a great torch. i am thinking of upgrading but I really don't need to. The torch I am on will be sufficient to make everything from my soft glass beads to boro marbles and pendants and even small blown work for several years!

[Cindy2]

Thanks for your thoughts, Leanne. No one in my area has a midrange but I thought that since I've been working on a minor, I'd stay with the same line of torches. I really like my minor, it's a real workhorse. On tanked oxy, the minor has a kick@## flame. I'm on an oxy generator right now - I bought it in anticipation of buying a bigger torch.

In another thread awhile ago, someone had mentioned that the premix was great for boro - so I was considering the premix for that reason. I was under the impression that the midrange lower burner wasn't as good for boro - but from what you've said, your experience is that the lower burner is plenty hot for boro.

I think I'm emotionally attached to my minor! LOL! It's taking me sooooo long to decide what to upgrade to! LOL!

Cindy

[Leanne]

The midrange cranks for boro. It's sweet. In fact this thread has got me thinking about my torch and I don't think i'll bother upgrading. I only wanted a new torch because I wanted one not cause I needed one!!!!!

I actually got the midrange because of that same reason I wanted it but didn't really need it. Now I would NOT be without it. I could probably make most of what I want to make on the minor (just to try it out between my last post and this post I made a nice implosion pendant with 12mm clear rod with the very last fart of oxy left in the bottle and I made it on the minor!!!! when i tapped off the cold seal at the end I was down to about a 2 inch flame so it was perfect timing for the end of the bottle! It was slower than the midrange though)

It's up to you I guess I am a bit biased because I have never used a premix. I guess like you said if you hung on to the minor you could get the midrange with premix top and then have all 3 torches!!!

The midrange can get a pretty good flame! I have only had 1 time when it was really slow going because I made something a little too big....

You will not be dissapointed with the midrange. It's a good torch for the price! I have only tried nortel and bethlehem torches. Im a bit of a nortel girl they seem to last and last and last if you don't turn the taps off too hard.