Liquid Oxy vs Generator - help please

[SilverSage]

I'm going to have to make a decision between running liquid oxy or buying a generator big enough to run a GTT Phantom. It's going out in the country about 75 miles from anywhere so tanked oxy would be a pain to run into town constantly. I talked to our local welding guys when I originally got the tanked oxy and they really didn't understand too much about the whole lampworking thing (no matter what I told them they thought a large cylinder would last for WEEKS on a lynx).
I'm not sure if I should lean toward liquid or a larger generator and really don't know what questions I need to be asking about either one. I would appreciate any advice anyone would like to give me. I've got an OG20 right now as well as tanked oxy.
Thanks for any help and guidance you provide!

[Cosmo]

Having just researched the exact same issue, here's what I have found...

-Generators are good, but are often loud and expensive. Liquid tanks aren't as expensive, but have to be refilled. And, they vent off excess pressure. How much and how often they vent vary from tank to tank and due to climate. If you get a liquid tank and leave it sitting, it will vent enough to empty itself in a couple weeks. If you are using it pretty regularly it will last much longer because you are using the pressure instead of letting it build up and vent off.

-Liquid oxygen is the most pure you can get. A generator won't be as pure but usually is good enough.

-Liquid oxygen has unlimited pressure. A generator doesn't. But, again, for a Phantom it should be plenty since they really aren't that big.

-Either system is going to be heavy and take up room. I think the liquid tanks we get here are about 700 pounds. So, you will have to get it delivered. Most oxygen companies won't deliver to urban areas, and only have a limited deliver area anyways. So that is something to take into consideration.

In the end I decided to go with liquid. I like the purity and unlimited pressure (we'll be running two Carlisle CC's and occasionally a Mirage).

[Dale M.]

Liquid oxygen seems to be a solution to high volume oxy use according to most information on the GLDG site. BUT there are issues. Liquid oxygen dewars have a delivery issue. It size is approximately 250-350 lbs. in weight (need to check this value) . This pretty much dictates it has to be delivered by supplier. Suppliers may or may not decide if you are a candidate for delivery... The have excuses like, roads won't support their delivery trucks, distance is to great, "we have a X mile limit", zoning codes don't allow liquid oxy in your location....

If its 75 miles for you to pick up tanks, then its 75 miles for them to deliver. Driving time plus load and unload time is going to be about 3 hours for them, they may want to charge premium price for delivery IF they will even deal with you. On GLDG site there is many horror stories about dealing with liquid oxy suppliers. Any deal you work out with supplier, GET IT IN WRITING and be sure terms are agreeable.

There is also safety issues....

http://www.cdc.gov/elcosh/docs/d0500/d000585/d000585.html

Dale

[kbinkster]

Well, there are a lot of things that factor into whether you should go with a dewar or with a generator. Or, it could even be that the solution for you is to keep several tanks on hand and periodicaly make the trip to swap them out (easier if you have a truck) or get them delivered.

As for generator vs. dewar:

Cosmo mentioned pressure. True, a Dewar can provide very high pressure. However, you do not need high pressures to run a Phantom. The Pro-4/Pro-8 generators put out 40 psi, which is more than enough pressure for a Phantom.

The other consideration is volume. A dewar will provide you with as much volume as any torch would ever need - until it runs out/vents off and needs to be refilled (and yes, if you don't use it, you will lose it with a dewar). If you buy a generator, you would have to make sure that it would provide enough volume for the torch you have now, and probably for any torch you think you might upgrade to.

A big consideration is cost. Generators are a big up-front expense, dewars are an ongoing, neverending cost. You should calculate how much oxygen you typically use and see if a generator would be worth it for you. For some people, it is definitely less expensive than going through tanks or liquid. But, it all depends on how much you use and how much you pay for it. Maybe ask around to see how much other people go through - and look at the size and volume of their work. A hobbyist bead-maker is probably using a lot less than a full-time production worker making larger items.

Then, there is the convenience factor. Having a generator means that you will never run out of oxygen. You also don't have to worry about lifting/moving tanks or having to rely on someone else to come deliver/move them for you. The downside is that you need to run a big, noisey air compressor. Some places are set-up so that the space and noise are not a concern, other places are not.

Generators are not a solution for everyone because everyone's situation is different. But, for some people, they definitely are a great way to go.

[PaulaD]

We have been using liquid oxygen since we opened. I did look into a large generator system but it was $25000 and also required modifications to the electrical system that would have been another $4000. These systems are power pigs and really noisy and also require another system to keep everything cool. (Don't have much experience with the smaller systems.)
The dewar that we use weighs 750 lbs and the delivery place brings in in on a dolly. It lasts much longer than most people think. I usually get 8 to 12 weeks out of it and that is running classes off of it. If not used it vents at 1% a day and still lasts a good 8 to 10 weeks.. There are home systems now where they will install a tank in your home and then come and fill it from a truck. There is nothing else like liquid oxygen for getting the best colors out of your glass. I can even see a difference between using liquid and high pressure tanks. People in the studio notice the difference right away.
And it's quiet!
There's also a system available that will fill a high pressure tank in your house overnight is delivery gets to be a problem.
Paula

[SilverSage]

Delivery is the biggest issue for us no matter what. I expect the torch to run 30-40 hours per week. I expect we will eventually run a GTT Mirage, but I don't foresee anything larger than that.
We are building on some property we have out in the boonies so there is about 10 miles of dirt road to travel down and some of it is rather rough (it's the sort of place where you don't come visit us without 4 wheel drive if there's rain or snow).
To have 4 or 5 tanks on hand would cost $225 per tank for the lifetime lease plus $37.50. Right now I can't even get the oxy supplier to discuss liquid oxy with me as they say it is only for commercial/industrial customers so first I have to win an argument that says I qualify. They are the only supplier near me.
DH is currently converting our old cabin (read one room shack) into a glass studio for me so I have a lot of input into how things end up.
Can I add an addition to keep a generator noise down? Can generators be stored outside? Do they have to be kept at a certain temperature even when not in use?

[Bubba]

How do I calculate the amount of tanked O2 I am consuming before I make a move to Liquid O2?

Then I guess I need to factor in 1% loss for each day I dont use it?

[Cosmo]

Basically, if you aren't using a full 282 (or whatever the biggest tank you can get is) per day, you probably won't be able to justify going to liquid. The size liquid tanks we get around here last about 30-40 times as long as a regular tank.

[SilverSage]

Basically, if you aren't using a full 282 (or whatever the biggest tank you can get is) per day, you probably won't be able to justify going to liquid. The size liquid tanks we get around here last about 30-40 times as long as a regular tank.

That's helpful. I go through a full 282 in about 1.5 days.

[Cosmo]

Well, "day" is not a very precise unit of time. I guess I should have said maybe 4-5 tanks per week, or something. It depends on how often you work and all that.

If you are going through that much on a Phantom in 1½ days, you must be working every waking moment. Or working with the outer flame on all the time. My CC doesn't use that much, and it's an oxygen hog.

[SilverSage]

LOL Let me rephrase then. First, I meant 2 1/2 days not 1 1/2. It's on a lynx and I think I was guessing about 20 hours on the tank. I've got a phantom on order and am building the new set-up for it. If that still sounds like too much then I must be doing something wrong (feel free to help if it sounds that way).

[SilverSage]

I am expecting to be able to spend a lot more time on glass once everything is built. We're in town now and my time is really limited so I struggle for glass time.

[Norskiglass]

If you are working daily an OL-50 LOX will give you a month of unlimited supply or more.....

~W~

[Cosmo]

That still sounds like an awful lot of oxygen to be using on a Lynx. But, I'll admit I don't have much experience on one, so I can't say for sure.

[SilverSage]

That still sounds like an awful lot of oxygen to be using on a Lynx. But, I'll admit I don't have much experience on one, so I can't say for sure.

Hmmm....okay, I will check around for more info on that then. Thanks!

[SilverSage]

Can anyone tell me who I would look to that would sell generators that would run a Phantom or a Mirage?
Thanks!

[kbinkster]

LOL Let me rephrase then. First, I meant 2 1/2 days not 1 1/2. It's on a lynx and I think I was guessing about 20 hours on the tank. I've got a phantom on order and am building the new set-up for it. If that still sounds like too much then I must be doing something wrong (feel free to help if it sounds that way).

That seems excessive for a Lynx. First, check for leaks. Then, check what type of flame you are running. You could be running too oxidizing a flame, which does two things (1) you pass a lot of oxygen through the torch, and (2) you would be running a cooler flame that way, thereby taking longer to heat the glass, hence passing even more oxygen through the torch than is needed.

What do your candles look like?

[meadowesky]

I have to pick up my liquid in the next state and it is still worth it.
I get a pretty good deal at 90$ a month dont pay rental.
I love my liquid. I am on my 2nd week on liquid on a cheetah and freaking love it!!

[Cosmo]

I have to pick up my liquid in the next state and it is still worth it.
I get a pretty good deal at 90$ a month dont pay rental.
I love my liquid. I am on my 2nd week on liquid on a cheetah and freaking love it!!

How do you transport and load/unload it? I know the liquid tanks here weigh about 700 pounds.

[meadowesky]

LOL you should see it!
so I take a pickup truck there. They load it with a fork truck into the bed. I use about 8 heavy duty ratchet ties and ratchet it until it wont move. At all.
I bought a can cart for 400$. when home we put up the ramps to the back of the truck, get the can on the cart, and wheel it down to the ground. Easy peezy.


And as far as oxy use on the lynx, cheetah, or phantom...
I keep hearing people talking about how much oxy they are going through. and then I hear people responding that they should be using "soooo much less or are running the torch wrong" ya know, they use alot of oxy. ALOT. I can easily go through a 337 cf tank in about 12-13 hours. Sometimes I run a slightly reducing flame but when I need it that oxy is on. When I was considering what torch to buy, I remember reading that the GTT torches are more efficent when they are really crankin it out. I actually think that Kbinkster was the one who quoted the oxy use of several torches.
I guess it doesnt matter to me anymore, i love my torch and i love liquid oxy. (which happens to be the only way I can afford to feed my little cheetah.)

[SilverSage]

sigh....I feel like I'm losing it completely. It was a cheetah I had on the tanked oxy - the lynx ran great on the OG20, but the cheetah didn't. Anyway, I sold the lynx when I got the cheetah and missed my lynx so much I decided to get the phantom. Starting to feel blonder by the minute!

[pam]

You know, Julie, it just goes to show how different people use different torches in different ways!!

I run my Cheetah on the OG20 and have no problem with it at all. My beads are 4 to 6 inches long...........however, I work slowly because what I am doing takes quite a bit of detail work, so I am not heating a great big batch of glass at one time (most of the time). I think 20 hours on the large tanked oxy sounds about right. That's really what I used to get, before generator.

[PaulaD]

i love my torch and i love liquid oxy. (which happens to be the only way I can afford to feed my little cheetah.)

I agree...The Cheetah running on liquid oxygen is just magnificent!

Paula

[kbinkster]

sigh....I feel like I'm losing it completely. It was a cheetah I had on the tanked oxy - the lynx ran great on the OG20, but the cheetah didn't. Anyway, I sold the lynx when I got the cheetah and missed my lynx so much I decided to get the phantom. Starting to feel blonder by the minute!

I talked to Willy about using up a tank in 2 1/2 days on a Lynx. He said that if you are pushing the Lynx really hard and working long hours, sure you can go through that much. I was going by my experience making beads and doing some small boro on a Lynx when I was on tanked oxygen. It took me about 5 days or so (of working 6-8 hours a day) to go through a tank, longer if I wasn't working long hours. If you are working larger and harder, then you would definitely go through more than I did.

The Cheetah will definitely use more oxygen than the Lynx, because it is considerably larger.

[kbinkster]

I keep hearing people talking about how much oxy they are going through. and then I hear people responding that they should be using "soooo much less or are running the torch wrong" ya know, they use alot of oxy. ALOT.
I heard you make that complaint once before in another thread and I asked you to describe your flame and you never bothered to answer.

If you think that a Cheetah uses a lot of oxygen, then you should try running some of the other torches in that size range.

I can easily go through a 337 cf tank in about 12-13 hours.
That puts your oxygen use at about 26-28 CFH. The Cheetah only needs about 22 CFH for its maximum flame. Running at its maximum neutral flame, full out, no breaks, just running non-stop, you should be able to get about 15 hours out of it. It sounds like you are pushing more oxygen than is needed through your torch. Again, I had asked you in a previous thread to describe the candles you were running to see if perhaps you could make some adjustments and you never bothered to reply.

Sometimes I run a slightly reducing flame but when I need it that oxy is on. When I was considering what torch to buy, I remember reading that the GTT torches are more efficent when they are really crankin it out. I actually think that Kbinkster was the one who quoted the oxy use of several torches.
Yes, I was the one who quoted the consumption rates. The Cheetah uses about 22 CFH for its maximum flame.

What are you considering a reducing flame? I wouldn't know what you think because the last time I asked, you never bothered to answer.

I guess it doesnt matter to me anymore, i love my torch and i love liquid oxy. (which happens to be the only way I can afford to feed my little cheetah.)
I'm really glad that you are loving your Cheetah, but it is really unfair to paint it as such an oxygen hog. I know of several people who run Cheetahs on tanked oxygen without any problems (and they make bigger pieces than you do). To suggest that it goes through so much oxygen that it is impractical to run it on anything but liquid is especially unfair since apparently you won't even entertain the idea that you could be running more oxygen through the torch than it realy needs.