Art glass, or just glass?

[glassbead]

Well, I've been thinking a lot about this lately and wanted to get some other opinions. Do you consider what you make to be art glass? Have you always considered it to be so, or was there a breakthrough that made you feel like you might finally be there? What do you think is the dividing line, or is there one? I'll start with my own ideas, and hopefully won't get blasted. I just want to know what others think. And who knows, by the end of it all, I may even change my ideas!
I am a lampwork glass beadmaker who has been making beads for about eight years. I have always been very uncomfortable when people classify me as an artist because of what I do. I am more comfortable being classified as an artisan. Until about two years ago, I certainly didn't feel that what I was doing could be even remotely classified as art. Decent beads, but I still had an awful lot to learn. (And still do.) It did seem like something happened at that time. It wasn't sudden, but I got the distinct impression that I knew what I was doing. It was kind of an amazing feeling. Of course the newness of it has worn off now, but I do feel like my beads show a certain something (most of the time) that wasn't there before.
So I have to say that I don't feel that working with glass necessarily makes one an artist, or that all lampworked, blown, or fused glass is art glass. And even now, I don't know whether to classify what I do as art glass. Certainly not all of it is, and what I feel might fit in that category might not meet the expectations of others.
Well, that's my perception. What's yours? Ok now, be nice!

[ROC]

101371

I'm no expert, but this looks like art to me.

[glassbead]

Thanks, that is one that I'd say yes to. Ya'll don't get to see all my marginal beads. Stop by some time and I'll show you!!!

[Dennis Brady]

Well, I've been thinking a lot about this lately and wanted to get some other opinions. Do you consider what you make to be art glass? Have you always considered it to be so, or was there a breakthrough that made you feel like you might finally be there? What do you think is the dividing line, or is there one? I'll start with my own ideas, and hopefully won't get blasted. I just want to know what others think. And who knows, by the end of it all, I may even change my ideas!
I am a lampwork glass beadmaker who has been making beads for about eight years. I have always been very uncomfortable when people classify me as an artist because of what I do. I am more comfortable being classified as an artisan. Until about two years ago, I certainly didn't feel that what I was doing could be even remotely classified as art. Decent beads, but I still had an awful lot to learn. (And still do.) It did seem like something happened at that time. It wasn't sudden, but I got the distinct impression that I knew what I was doing. It was kind of an amazing feeling. Of course the newness of it has worn off now, but I do feel like my beads show a certain something (most of the time) that wasn't there before.
So I have to say that I don't feel that working with glass necessarily makes one an artist, or that all lampworked, blown, or fused glass is art glass. And even now, I don't know whether to classify what I do as art glass. Certainly not all of it is, and what I feel might fit in that category might not meet the expectations of others.
Well, that's my perception. What's yours? Ok now, be nice!

You'll confuse people if your keep referring to the finished product as "art glass". That term has been traditionally used to refer to the coloured glass used for stained glass or kilnforming. The term "glass art" is more widely accepted as describing art made from glass.

That said.... whether or not something is "art" is entirely personal perception. If you want to call your work art, you can do so. You can call it anything yu want to call it. My personal perception is that the term "art" and "artist" have been so extensively overused, neither term any longer has any legitimate relevance. Some "artists" pile stacks of dog poop and call it art. Other "artisans" create magnificent work and don't care what it's called.

My thoughts? Just do good work and to hell with what it's called.

[ROC]

You're funny. Everything in your etsy is lovely. Maybe what differentiates between artist and artisan has to do with the process as well as product? Sometimes you go through motions (ppp), sometimes you have an idea and bring it to fruition, and sometimes you have happy accidents.

I may have an idea how you feel. I even have a hard time calling my space in the garage a "studio." As for the product, things I think are pretty lousy, others see as beautiful. That bee-holder's eye thing, ya know? (chuckle)

(Ha! Dennis, you jumped in while I was still typing!)

[Firebrand Beads]

Being an occasional copy editor, I agree with Dennis: in the term "art glass," art is modifying the noun glass. In the term "glass art," glass modifies the word art. So manufacturers produce Art Glass, and you turn it into Glass Art! Not sure if it's worth all of 2 cents, but there ya go...

[glassbead]

Curmudgeon, thanks for clarifying the art glass/ glass art thing. Yes, you're right in so many ways. And my dog will be happy to know he has been reclassified as an artist!

[glassbead]

ROC- yes, the going through the motions thing is part of the difference. Most of my accidents seem to be kind of un-happy. So my motto is: PAY ATTENTION!

[Hayley]

Having both my bachelor and master degrees in fine arts (not that it makes any difference except that I was surrounded by "aspiring artists"), I personally consider what I do with glass as craft, not art.

[StOrM]

so what is the difference between artist and artisan?

[scoutycat]

Hayley - Why craft not art? (jc)

[ROC]

I had to look it up, too.

Artist: one who practices an art; one who creates objects of beauty.

Artisan: skilled manual worker

(from Webster)

[Firebrand Beads]

My dictionary seems to think the "artisan" is more involved in a "skilled trade" than the artist is, per se. In general usage, it appears that "artists" are considered higher in the pecking order than "artisans." Like at art school, the "artsy-fartsy" folks generally lord it over the "artsy-craftsty" folks, right Hayley? Meaning if you study Art History you are somehow "better" than a painter, potter or printmaker... at least that's how it was where I went to college! ;->

[glassbead]

Your dragon tail bicone is lovely, Hayley, whatever you want to call it! From webster's New World Dictionary
Artisan: A worker in a skilled trade; craftsman
Artist: 1) A person who is works in, or is skilled in the techniques of, any of the fine arts, esp. in painting, drawing,, sculpture, etc. 2) a person who does anything very well, with imagination and a feeling for form, effect, etc.
Does that help? really?

[glassbead]

Oh, I knew the worms would find their way out of the can eventually!

[glassbead]

Oh hayley, speaking of worms, the word crafts is something I do try and divorce myself from because it's just TOO all encompassing.

[Firebrand Beads]

I hope no one takes offense at my "artsy-craftsy" versus "artsy-fartsy" comment! That's just the language we used to use, to joke around in the art dept at UofO in the 1980's...

[Wyldchlde]

I don't often post but felt the need to reply to this and it is not intended to be rude at all...just my opinion.Not everyone has the vision,the talent,the skill,the love or the passion to do what y'all do.When ever i look at the work posted,from beginner beads to what i think of as "the masters",it is all art to me.Take it from someone who can't do what you all do with glass,its all magic.

[glassbead]

Wylde, that's not rude, it's a compliment!

[StOrM]

that helps understand better....i think i would like to be called an artist then :)

[Dennis Brady]

Oh hayley, speaking of worms, the word crafts is something I do try and divorce myself from because it's just TOO all encompassing.

My preferred way to explain the difference between a craftsperson, an artisan, and an artist is,

Craftsperson - has good fabrication skills but doesn't produce original designs.
Artist - creates and designs but doesn't necessarily have fabrication skills.
Artisan - equally skilled at design and fabrication.

I have always preferred to be called an artisan.

[Hayley]

Hayley - Why craft not art? (jc)

To me (and that's just my opinion!), when something is functional, it usually is considered "craft." I had my emphasis in graphic design for my degrees, even tho I took all the drawing, painting, sculpture and photography classes as all my peers, we were never considered artists as they were because our work was functional.

My dictionary seems to think the "artisan" is more involved in a "skilled trade" than the artist is, per se. In general usage, it appears that "artists" are considered higher in the pecking order than "artisans." Like at art school, the "artsy-fartsy" folks generally lord it over the "artsy-craftsty" folks, right Hayley? Meaning if you study Art History you are somehow "better" than a painter, potter or printmaker... at least that's how it was where I went to college! ;->

Actually, the pecking order was that the art historians didn't even count when it comes to artsy-fartsy . . . it's the painters, sculptors, printmakers who were "better" than the photographers, and us graphic designers were considered the lowest in the order even AFTER the architecture students (who were even in the School of Art)!

For what's worth, I had my undergraduate degree from University of Hawaii and graduate degree from Yale.

Your dragon tail bicone is lovely, Hayley, whatever you want to call it! From webster's New World Dictionary
Artisan: A worker in a skilled trade; craftsman
Artist: 1) A person who is works in, or is skilled in the techniques of, any of the fine arts, esp. in painting, drawing,, sculpture, etc. 2) a person who does anything very well, with imagination and a feeling for form, effect, etc.
Does that help? really?

I consider myself an artisan and not an artist when I create glass beads. Some day I would love to create glass sculpture, thus hopefully will be considered an artist!

Others may consider themselves artists - using Webster's second definition.

As it was said before - I think we are all entitled to call ourselves whatever we like!

Oh hayley, speaking of worms, the word crafts is something I do try and divorce myself from because it's just TOO all encompassing.

I know - the word "crafts" is broad . . . shall we come up with a word somewhere between "art" and "craft?" ;-)

[Hayley]

My preferred way to explain the difference between a craftsperson, an artisan, and an artist is,

Craftsperson - has good fabrication skills but doesn't produce original designs.
Artist - creates and designs but doesn't necessarily have fabrication skills.
Artisan - equally skilled at design and fabrication.

I have always preferred to be called an artisan.

Interesting, Dennis . . . I can't say I agree 100%. I do woodworking and build furniture that is original in design and my craftsmanship has been called high quality . . . thus with woodworking, I consider myself a good craftsman (craftswoman, whatever) and not an artist or an artisan. . .

[Dennis Brady]

I know - the word "crafts" is broad . . . shall we come up with a word somewhere between "art" and "craft?"

Artisan.

[Dennis Brady]

Interesting, Dennis . . . I can't say I agree 100%. I do woodworking and build furniture that is original in design and my craftsmanship has been called high quality . . . thus with woodworking, I consider myself a good craftsman (craftswoman, whatever) and not an artist or an artisan. . .

Another way to view it might be to suggest that where a craftsman uses wood to build furniture, an artisan uses it to build violins. I think the appropriate label for Antonio Stradivari is master artisan.

The pecking order disputes almost always arise out of credit for creation rather than workmanship. Everybody that studies architecture or stained glass knows who designed Fallingwater. Does anybody know (or care) who built it?

[houptdavid]

Just a note...it was Walter Hall who built it and if it wasn't for changes he made in the reinforcement Fallingwater would have fallen down...so just cuz you have a degree dosen't mean you know better

[Dennis Brady]

Just a note...it was Walter Hall who built it and if it wasn't for changes he made in the reinforcement Fallingwater would have fallen down...so just cuz you have a degree dosen't mean you know better

Builders often refer to architects as people that draw pictures of collapsible buildings. That doesn't change the fact that art is in the design and not the fabrication. Hall may have been a superb craftsman but he could never claim his work was art while FLW is widely acknowledged as an artist - for both his architectural and stained glass designs.

Perhaps another factor in considering the difference between craftsperson, artist and artisan is that while an artist might be concerned only with the design, an artisan will be equally concerned with the engineering.

[Hayley]

Just a note...it was Walter Hall who built it and if it wasn't for changes he made in the reinforcement Fallingwater would have fallen down...so just cuz you have a degree dosen't mean you know better

Walter Hall didn't build it all by himself. He was part of a team including structure engineer, etc....and, yes, the architect himself.

In many fields, having a degree (and a license in an architect's case) DOES mean that you know better - have you ever seen the drawing set they have to put together, including details of how everything is built? . . . But they don't claim to know it all. It's the structure engineer's job to make sure that the building doesn't fall down and that the vision of the architect can be carried out.

[swamper]

Okay, I think that anyone who picks up a box of Crayolas and puts them to paper is an artist - some are good - some are not.

Call yourself what ever you like and let the public decide if they like your work.

About the "glass art" "art glass" thing - I think what we do can be called "art glass " - all lower case as opposed to what the manufacturers make "Art Glass".

I named my garage studio, "Black Bear Art Glass" because I liked idea of using BBAG for short. No one has ever told me that I was out of line so I think we beadmakers as a group stress too much over tags and labels.

Linda

[Dennis Brady]

Walter Hall didn't build it all by himself. He was part of a team including structure engineer, etc....and, yes, the architect himself.

In many fields, having a degree (and a license in an architect's case) DOES mean that you know better - have you ever seen the drawing set they have to put together, including details of how everything is built? . . . But they don't claim to know it all. It's the structure engineer's job to make sure that the building doesn't fall down and that the vision of the architect can be carried out.

Who has a degree has nothing to do with it. The artistic vision came from the architect. What he did can be called art. What the builder and engineer did can't. Their function is limited to executing the architect's artistic vision. That's why all the credit goes to the architect.

If you buy a pattern to make a stained glass lampshade and select all the colours of glass and build that lamp, you will never be anything more then a fabricator. No matter how superbly you built that lamp and how great your colour selection was, you are NOT an artist. You're a fabricator. The ONLY one that can claim to having produced art is the original designer of that pattern. In the case of Fallingwaters, FLW is the artist. All others are fabricators.

As is mentioned in every discussion about what is art, there are many variables and pretty much anything can be labelled art - but there is one universal constant that applies regardless of what label anyone selects. Only the creator can claim to be an artist. It it ain't original, it ain't art. If you create a unique and original design, you can claim it's art - but no matter how fine your workmanship is, you can never do that with a copy or derivation of another design. Because there is very very little in bead design that could be considered unique or original, there is very very little in bead design that could be consideed art. It can be superb craftsmanship, but that doesn't make it art no matter how badly the bead maker wants to claim it is.

I suggest the same standard would appy as applies for copyright. If what you make isn't original enough to be protected by copyright, it isn't original enough to be called art.

[Dennis Brady]

Okay, I think that anyone who picks up a box of Crayolas and puts them to paper is an artist - some are good - some are not.

Call yourself what ever you like and let the public decide if they like your work.

About the "glass art" "art glass" thing - I think what we do can be called "art glass " - all lower case as opposed to what the manufacturers make "Art Glass".

I named my garage studio, "Black Bear Art Glass" because I liked idea of using BBAG for short. No one has ever told me that I was out of line so I think we beadmakers as a group stress too much over tags and labels.

Linda

The term "art glass" is about a century old and is used to differentiate from window glass.

Almost everybody in the glass industry would assume that Black Bear Art Glass was a seller of glass supplies - whereas they would assume that Black Bear Glass Art sells things made from glass.

Art glass is coloured glass used to create glass art.

[pam]

The term "art glass" as used by the stained glass world, does not dictate the use of the term in other worlds. Thus we see Fenton Art Glass to describe handmade blown and pressed glass, Pismo Contemporary Art Glass displaying works by Chihuly and Tagliapietra and Kuhn. You can also look at Frantz Art Glass and Sundance Art Glass. Art glass is the term for using glass as the medium to create art.

With regards to the statement that everything has been done before with beads and therefore everything we do is derivative, then I suppose that all people who paint and use a rectangular canvas is doing nothing but derivative work. Our canvas is an amount of glass with a hole through it. What is done with it is determined by the artist who creates on this canvas. We are just at the tip of the iceberg with regard to beads. Look at the creations that have come out in the last 15 years. Look at the new types of glass, new tools, and tell me we are doing derivative work. Each and every artist that picks up a piece of glass and puts it into the torch is on their way to creating a unique piece of art. The only way to turn that into craft is to use a pattern or copy someone else's work.

[glasshouse]

Thanks for the great answer, Pam! I recently donated a focal bead depicting a forest glen scene complete with encased mushrooms to my local mushroom hunting society for a silent auction. I wrote Art Glass Bead as the description. It seemed to be a simple way to title the bead so that people would know that it was one of a kind, handmade by me.

My father had his own one man hot shop during the so-called Studio Art Glass Movement from 1970 until the early 80's. His pieces are original and beautiful works of art. No two were exactly the same, even within a set of goblets. His studio was called Paul Brown Art Glass. I doubt anyone was ever confused by it. Rather, the term "art glass" was the perfect description. Back when I grew up, stained glass was "stained glass," and handmade glass items were "art glass."

.02 from a girl who grew up with art glass

:) Kelly

[swamper]

Well spoken, Pam and Kelly. You explained what I couldn't find the words for.

[glassbead]

Lots of different ideas and opinions here, which is what I was hoping for. Just when one person convinces me that they're right, another chimes in with something else I have to agree with.
Pam and glasshouse, thanks for your input about art glass. I knew the art glass movement was a real thing, and knew it didn't refer to glass manufacturers, so I was still a little muddled about things. As I think I said in the beginning, I on;y began to feel my glass was approaching art in the last couple of years. This was when I realized that I had enough control over the medium to make what I wanted to make (most of the time). And I do really try to come up with ideas of my own. Though I may start with directions or ideas from someone else's work, I find I always tweak it to my own tastes, often mixing techniques in one bead.
Dennis, you make a lot of valid points too. I still prefer artisan for myself. I like the idea of kind of crossing the artist, craftsperson line in both directions.
Thank you all for the great input!

[Dennis Brady]

Lots of different ideas and opinions here, which is what I was hoping for. Just when one person convinces me that they're right, another chimes in with something else I have to agree with.
Pam and glasshouse, thanks for your input about art glass. I knew the art glass movement was a real thing, and knew it didn't refer to glass manufacturers, so I was still a little muddled about things. As I think I said in the beginning, I on;y began to feel my glass was approaching art in the last couple of years. This was when I realized that I had enough control over the medium to make what I wanted to make (most of the time). And I do really try to come up with ideas of my own. Though I may start with directions or ideas from someone else's work, I find I always tweak it to my own tastes, often mixing techniques in one bead.
Dennis, you make a lot of valid points too. I still prefer artisan for myself. I like the idea of kind of crossing the artist, craftsperson line in both directions.
Thank you all for the great input!

For years my customers kept asking me to produce an "Artist's Statement". I'm not happy with the term artist so the idea of making a statement as one seemed silly. In fact, I've always thought all "Artist's Statements" were pretty silly. However, after years of being pestered, I finally relented and produced this:
http://www.debrady.com/about/artistsstatement.htm

[Hayley]

I like your artist statement, Dennis.

Interesting thread . . . I just want to add that although I don't consider my glass beads art, I have no problem that others consider what they make art or call themselves artists. As long as we all create and have fun doing it, a name is just a name . . . it's the process and the result that count! ;-)

[scoutycat]

I've thought a lot about the difference between artist and craft person, and what I decided is this:
An artist is trying to communicate a view of the world (or part of the world) using some medium. They may be hampered by their skill in a particular medium, but the medium is a merely a tool to pass on the message. The key question for artists is why did they do that?
A crafts person is attempting to produce a quality item in a specific medium. Skill and technique in a specific medium is the focus, and a message is not important or at least significantly less important. Design is not especially important, and may or may not be original. The key question for crafts people is how did they do that?
Artisans are high end crafts people who attempt to produce objects with a high quality original design. Design, beauty and function are the focus, with an interest in appealing to a large body of people. The key question for artisans is What did they do that for?

Hayley - I'm intrigued by the functional vs non- functional idea. IMO, it leads to some silliness. For instance, a vessel that has had it's shape altered so that it is no longer a vessel but a non-functional object reflecting the traditional vessel shape is just silly. It's art if I can't stick a flower in it, and craft if I can? Hmmm. And, are beads functional or decorative? What about decorative painting - people follow patterns and aren't trying to say anything about anything, they just want a pretty thing for their foyer or whatever. Not trying to argue, just thinking out loud :)

[Hayley]

Hayley - I'm intrigued by the functional vs non- functional idea. IMO, it leads to some silliness. For instance, a vessel that has had it's shape altered so that it is no longer a vessel but a non-functional object reflecting the traditional vessel shape is just silly. It's art if I can't stick a flower in it, and craft if I can? Hmmm. And, are beads functional or decorative? What about decorative painting - people follow patterns and aren't trying to say anything about anything, they just want a pretty thing for their foyer or whatever. Not trying to argue, just thinking out loud :)

I think you misunderstood! Something that is non-functional doesn't automatically makes it art! ;-) In your example, a vessel that has had its shape altered so that you could no longer stick a flower in it, to me, is just a vessel that should be thrown away! lol!

Beads are functional in my opinion, thus I consider my glass beads craft and not art.

Speaking of decorative painting . . . now we are entering another part of "what is art" . . . one of the forefathers of graphic design is Toulouse Lautrec. He was definitely an artist but he also did a lot of posters with amazing illustrations and hand-painted typography. So the question is - are illustrations art? If not, when does a painting stop being a painting and becomes any illustration?

Curiously the California College of Arts and Crafts in the Bay Area, after 96 years, was renamed to the California College of the Arts.

[scoutycat]

ITA, hayley! But there are a lot of artists out there (esp. glass workers & ceramics/ potters, IME) who deliberately curve the necks of their pieces so they can't be used, or make the hole too small etc. Or teapots you couldn't fill with water or pour from, and other things that are made to be art pieces ''reflecting" a particular form. Certainly, there are plenty of people who would be horrified to see their art used as a functional piece. I think that people are questioning this now, in this age of too much stuff, and so there is a re-awakening of craft and functional work as art.

[Lisi]

I hope no one takes offense at my "artsy-craftsy" versus "artsy-fartsy" comment! That's just the language we used to use, to joke around in the art dept at UofO in the 1980's...

No offense at all, and I just had to laugh about this, heehee! My father was an artist and he worked for an advertising agency in Chicago back in the 50's. He used both of those descriptions all the time! ;) :D

[glassbead]

Dennis, your artist's statement is hilarious. And it really does tell people a little something about you! I've gone a much more traditional route, trying to use every little thing I've ever done to prove that, indeed, you should care about my work. My sister tells me that people even use the Edinburgh festival and fringe fest, which is an open street fair that anyone can join, on their artist's statements, since most folks have no clue. And I agree, many artist's statements are just a lot of hooey.

[glassbead]

And here is a quote from one of your web pages, Dennis
"True Art is ever progressive and impatient of fixed rules.
Because a thing has always been done in a certain way is no reason why it should never be done in any other."
............LOUIS COMFORT TIFFANY

A good assessment by a true artist! So much of what we're talking about here is really just a matter of semantics and personal perceptions. And a certain amount of, I think, cache and exclusivity in some communities.

[Dennis Brady]

I like your artist statement, Dennis.

Interesting thread . . . I just want to add that although I don't consider my glass beads art, I have no problem that others consider what they make art or call themselves artists. As long as we all create and have fun doing it, a name is just a name . . . it's the process and the result that count! ;-)

I have a friend that teaches business at an arts college (what a concept - teaching business to aspiring artists) that provided a comment I've adopted.

"Artist" is a gift word. You can give it, but you can't take it. If someone calls you an artist, they're praising your work. If you call yourself an artist, you're stroking your ego.

[Dennis Brady]

And here is a quote from one of your web pages, Dennis
"True Art is ever progressive and impatient of fixed rules.
Because a thing has always been done in a certain way is no reason why it should never be done in any other."
............LOUIS COMFORT TIFFANY

A good assessment by a true artist! So much of what we're talking about here is really just a matter of semantics and personal perceptions. And a certain amount of, I think, cache and exclusivity in some communities.

That comment applies as much to business as it does anything else.

You like quotes? Here's another.

It's not enough to "think outside the box".
Creativity comes from not ever entering the box.

.......Dennis Brady

[glassbead]

I like to try and think outside my own personal box. Not always easy, and I often forget.

[glassbead]

Oh, and I like the gift word idea. I do feel that many people who call themselves artists are patting themselves on the back.

[Hayley]

I have a friend that teaches business at an arts college (what a concept - teaching business to aspiring artists) that provided a comment I've adopted.

"Artist" is a gift word. You can give it, but you can't take it. If someone calls you an artist, they're praising your work. If you call yourself an artist, you're stroking your ego.



Oh, and I like the gift word idea. I do feel that many people who call themselves artists are patting themselves on the back.

That's one of the reasons I don't consider my glass beads "art" . . . same concept . . . must be the Asian upbringing . . .

[Firebrand Beads]

I like the way you describe the inherent questions, Scoutycat...
And Hayley - thanks for that perspective! I guess being in the metals lab at UofO kept me far enough from the fray in the Art Dept that I didn't realize the hoity-toity Art History students were "lording" it over the painters, printmakers and metalsmiths because they had more to prove! Plus, they had the architecture students to kick around. ;->

[Dennis Brady]

I like the way you describe the inherent questions, Scoutycat...
And Hayley - thanks for that perspective! I guess being in the metals lab at UofO kept me far enough from the fray in the Art Dept that I didn't realize the hoity-toity Art History students were "lording" it over the painters, printmakers and metalsmiths because they had more to prove! Plus, they had the architecture students to kick around. ;->

If you propose a project idea to an Engineering grad, they’ll ask you, “How can it be built?”

If you propose the idea to an Accounting grad, they’ll ask, “How much will it cost?”

If you propose the idea to a Law grad, they’ll ask, “Is it legal to do that?”

If you propose the idea to an Arts History grad, they’ll ask, “Do you want fries with it?”

[houptdavid]

Dennis,

I must say that I love your "Artist Statement"

[Dennis Brady]

Dennis,

I must say that I love your "Artist Statement"


Thanks.

It's my way of saying that I think what you do is more important then what you're labelled. It's also because I'm fundamentally mercenary. I'll not only prostitute my "art", I'll haggle on the price. I make stuff to sell - never had any interest in building a collection of my own work.

[kmd]

In a previous lifetime BG ( before glass) I was a Textile Artist. I tried calling myself a Fibre Artist, but lot of people got muddled with the dietetic concept of fibre, and speculated wildly on what it was that I did. I worked with textiles, and I considered that what I tried to do, and sometimes succeeded with, was create art with textiles. I encouraged my students to think the same way, and refer to their workspace as a studio, ( not the sewing room) One student humbly told me that she could only work in her Garagio.

One artistic quote that I love and I have displayed in my studio is, I think, attributed to Picasso.

"An artist is someone who looks at what everybody else is looking at, and sees something no one else has ( or maybe it was can) see. "

kmd

[Cosmo]

I think you misunderstood! Something that is non-functional doesn't automatically makes it art! ;-) In your example, a vessel that has had its shape altered so that you could no longer stick a flower in it, to me, is just a vessel that should be thrown away! lol!

Beads are functional in my opinion, thus I consider my glass beads craft and not art.

Speaking of decorative painting . . . now we are entering another part of "what is art" . . . one of the forefathers of graphic design is Toulouse Lautrec. He was definitely an artist but he also did a lot of posters with amazing illustrations and hand-painted typography. So the question is - are illustrations art? If not, when does a painting stop being a painting and becomes any illustration?

Curiously the California College of Arts and Crafts in the Bay Area, after 96 years, was renamed to the California College of the Arts.

Just because something is functional does not mean it is not art. Pakoh wrote a whole book on that subject. (http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal679_Redefinition_by_Pakoh.asp)

These items are 100% functional, but I doubt anyone will say they don't qualify as "art":

http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal20534__Dark_Angel_.asp
http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal24834_Shiva_Chillum.asp
http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal6868_A_Rattie_honeycomb_larva_bub.asp
http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal27920__Journeys_.asp
http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal24081_5_-_1_4.asp

Those guys are artists, no question about it.

[Hayley]

Just because something is functional does not mean it is not art. Pakoh wrote a whole book on that subject. (http://www.glasspipes.org/Gal679_Redefinition_by_Pakoh.asp)

These items are 100% functional, but I doubt anyone will say they don't qualify as "art":

Those guys are artists, no question about it.

That's your opinion, Cosmo . . . I was just stating mine . . . that I don't consider most objects that are functional, art . . . then again there are exception to any rules. Pakoh's book is also based on his opinion. Isn't that why it's great to live in the world we live in right now (at least the part we live in!) - we are all entitled to our opinion.

[Cosmo]

So in order to be "art", it must have no function? By that token, a paperweight wouldn't be art because it can hold down paper. A painting wouldn't be art because it can be hung to cover a crack in a wall. A statue wouldn't be art because it can block the sun and provide shade.

Doesn't make sense to me, but, like you said, that's your opinion...

[Hayley]

So in order to be "art", it must have no function? By that token, a paperweight wouldn't be art because it can hold down paper. A painting wouldn't be art because it can be hung to cover a crack in a wall. A statue wouldn't be art because it can block the sun and provide shade.

Doesn't make sense to me, but, like you said, that's your opinion...

I think you are splitting hair here . . . the painting was put there by someone to cover a crack in a wall and was not the original intention of the artist when it was created . . . same with the statue . . .

[Cosmo]

Not splitting hairs. Just looking for clarification. Art, to me, is in the eye of the beholder, not the eye of the creator.

[Hayley]

Not splitting hairs. Just looking for clarification. Art, to me, is in the eye of the beholder, not the eye of the creator.

Exactly - and I, the beholder, was just stating what I consider as art! ;-)

[pam]

Well, it is interesting the different viewpoints. I really have to say that I, personally, don't determine art by whether the object is functional or not. I guess in a very strict sense, art could be defined as "decorative" only, but I find that to be a very harsh definition myself. Chihuly makes bowls along with his other art, William Morris makes pots along with his other art. Stankard's paperweights I consider art, even though they are made to hold down papers. Tiffany vases, even though they can hold a flower, I consider art. There are literally hundreds of jewelry makers that I consider artists, as well as fiber artists who make the most beautiful coats that I have ever seen. I suppose that I differentiate between "fine art" and art. One can create art from twigs in the backyard, and form them into a wall hanging or a chair. They both can be works of art.

[klcbeads]

I always thought an artist was someone who had a deep passion, desire and obsession to materially produce with their hands and imagination something that is inside of them. When you have a vision and must unleash that vision through whatever medium, the result has always been considered art to me. Most artists would never dream of considering themselves artists, they are just doing what they feel they need to do, and express what they fee they needl to express. When you look at something and wonder what the person was thinking when they created their creation, and their work inspires you to actually care why they do what they do, isn't it art? It doesn't matter to me whether it is through glass, paint, garbage slung together, crayons, etc. Anyone can make art, not everyone can make a masterpiece.

[Hayley]

Well, it is interesting the different viewpoints. I really have to say that I, personally, don't determine art by whether the object is functional or not. I guess in a very strict sense, art could be defined as "decorative" only, but I find that to be a very harsh definition myself. Chihuly makes bowls along with his other art, William Morris makes pots along with his other art. Stankard's paperweights I consider art, even though they are made to hold down papers. Tiffany vases, even though they can hold a flower, I consider art. There are literally hundreds of jewelry makers that I consider artists, as well as fiber artists who make the most beautiful coats that I have ever seen. I suppose that I differentiate between "fine art" and art. One can create art from twigs in the backyard, and form them into a wall hanging or a chair. They both can be works of art.

Pam – I think you help me clear it up a bit . . . I have been discussing "art" as "fine art."

[Firebrand Beads]

Gads this is a GREAT discussion! Funny you mention Chihuly.... that's one case that really bugs me about the PUBLIC perception of "artist" versus "craftsman." Dale Chihuly hasn't blown a piece of glass himself since he lost an eye in 1972. But the public thinks of him first when they think "glass artist." If you don't believe me, ask someone you know who knows virtually nothing about glass! I appreciate that he gets credit for putting together these grand installations and all, and that he can get the backing to do these projects *because* of his name recognition. But it really bothers me that some of the best glass artists in the world (like Lino Tagliapetra (sp?)) do the actual work and Chihuly gets his name on them. If Lino's name was on the work that he does in this large public arena, then he might have enough name recognition to get the money to do these kinds of projects too -- and actually blow the glass he's getting credit for. I think Lino is a genuine artist, but he gets treated like a craftsman. For what it's worth, Chihuly DOES paint some abstract impressions that he gives the glass blowers for "direction." So maybe he's a "real" artist because he paints! ;-> Just my 2 cents worth (but you can take a discount.)

[pam]

I tend to agree with you to some extent, Firebrand, however it is my understanding that the concept of the pieces made in his studio is his, so I suppose he is the artist, though I agree that those that blow glass to create his concepts are great craftsmen and when creating their own concepts in glass are great artists.

And klcbeads, I agree with your completely.

I too am enjoying this discussion.

[prairieson]

...I suppose that I differentiate between "fine art" and art....

Even that line can get blurred... SOFA (http://www.sofaexpo.com/).

[Hayley]

Even that line can get blurred... SOFA (http://www.sofaexpo.com/).

Thank you for the link, John . . . I think the way I look at it is that when someone makes something functional, they don't necessarily set out to make "fine art" . . . it's after the fact that the pieces may be considered "functional art" . . . then again is functional art "fine art?" . . . definitely blurred . . .

In any museum, there are loads of functional objects - from the Chinese porcelain bowls some emperor used to stone arrowheads from some aboriginal tribe . . . but the people who made these objects were not necessarily artists and the objects were not considered art.

[pam]

So, the question becomes, would the Mona Lisa have been any less a work of art if it had been painted on a trunk? Is the Cistine Chapel any less a masterpiece because it is painted on a ceiling? Is Michaelangelo any less an artist because he painted a ceiling?

If one chooses a non-traditional canvas on which to execute their art, is it therefore not art?

[Hayley]

So, the question becomes, would the Mona Lisa have been any less a work of art if it had been painted on a trunk? Is the Cistine Chapel any less a masterpiece because it is painted on a ceiling? Is Michaelangelo any less an artist because he painted a ceiling?

If one chooses a non-traditional canvas on which to execute their art, is it therefore not art?

As I said before, that is just my opinion . . . and there ARE exceptions to that rule!

The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is definitely fine art . . . Michelangelo was commissioned to paint a mural which happened to be a ceiling and not a wall.

Frankly, I think if the Mona Lisa was painted on a trunk, it probably wouldn't have the stature is has as a masterpiece . . . at a minimum, it would not have been preserved as well.

[Firebrand Beads]

As I said before, that is just my opinion . . . and there ARE exceptions to that rule!

The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is definitely fine art . . . Michelangelo was commissioned to paint a mural which happened to be a ceiling and not a wall.

Frankly, I think if the Mona Lisa was painted on a trunk, it probably wouldn't have the stature is has as a masterpiece . . . at a minimum, it would not have been preserved as well.

Of course, if she were on a trunk, she'd be PANDORA! :biggrin:

[scoutycat]

I didn't mean to get everyone off picking on Hayley - I actually think that function vs. pure decoration is a perfectly valid way to differentiate art vs craft. Altho there are clearly exceptions and grey areas, it is one of only a few objective ways to determine quickly what is craft and what is art. It's interesting that this is always such an emotionally loaded subject, I've had it with several different groups and it gets heated pretty fast.

[Hayley]

I didn't mean to get everyone off picking on Hayley - I actually think that function vs. pure decoration is a perfectly valid way to differentiate art vs craft. Altho there are clearly exceptions and grey areas, it is one of only a few objective ways to determine quickly what is craft and what is art. It's interesting that this is always such an emotionally loaded subject, I've had it with several different groups and it gets heated pretty fast.

I can handle the heat . . . I know I can! ;-)

Thank you for coming to my defense tho! I appreciate it!

[Hayley]

Interesting discussion . . . I don't mind stirring up the pot a bit to get it going! ;-)

[Dennis Brady]

I didn't mean to get everyone off picking on Hayley - I actually think that function vs. pure decoration is a perfectly valid way to differentiate art vs craft. Altho there are clearly exceptions and grey areas, it is one of only a few objective ways to determine quickly what is craft and what is art. It's interesting that this is always such an emotionally loaded subject, I've had it with several different groups and it gets heated pretty fast.

I think the greatest problem in trying to differentiate between art and craft is too many people are convinced what they do is art but what others do is craft. I also think the emotional heat comes mostly from too many people being entirely too concerned about whether or not they deserve to be perceived as artists. It's ego. Entirely ego. For some, the label is of paramount importance. Others are indifferent to labels and their work is of paramount importance.

Whether or not something is functional couldn't possibly be more irrelevant to whether or not it's art. If it's good, it's good regardless of whether it has a functional purpose or has no use beyond being admired.

[Cosmo]

Whether or not something is functional couldn't possibly be more irrelevant to whether or not it's art. If it's good, it's good regardless of whether it has a functional purpose or has no use beyond being admired.

That's the point I was trying to make. Thanks.

[glassbead]

Oh, there have been a lot of great views expressed here in the last couple of days. I seem to mostly agree with klc and Pam- for the last couple of days anyway. But as always, Dennis has great insight to add to the mix. Ego is, unfortunately a big part of why some folks WANT to be called artists. It is such a loaded word, but it is, after all, just a word! And I certainly grew up with the idea that you never toot your own horn, and if someone else trys to toot it for you, you blush, duck and run!

[Firebrand Beads]

Perhaps this discussion proves that there are no set rules on "art" versus "craft"? If nothing else, it shows we still have some work to do in educating the general public about how hard it really is to do what we do (especially when we make it look easy!) I don't mind the casual shopper calling me a "crafter" instead of an "artist" as long as she doesn't also say "I saw beads like that for 25 cents at Michael's Crafts...." Some people actually can't see the difference between the cheapo Indian imports and what took me over an hour at 1400 degrees!

[Dennis Brady]

Perhaps this discussion proves that there are no set rules on "art" versus "craft"? If nothing else, it shows we still have some work to do in educating the general public about how hard it really is to do what we do (especially when we make it look easy!) I don't mind the casual shopper calling me a "crafter" instead of an "artist" as long as she doesn't also say "I saw beads like that for 25 cents at Michael's Crafts...." Some people actually can't see the difference between the cheapo Indian imports and what took me over an hour at 1400 degrees!

Having seen a huge variety of well made beads being sold for disturbingly low prices at several different wholesale gift shows, it could very well be that she did see beads like that for 25 cents at Michael's. There's some pretty good work coming out of China and India and the work coming in from Czech Republic, Poland, and Russia is as good as anything anybody here does - at a small fraction of what local beaders expect to sell for.

Just as important as educating the public, is the importance of educating local glass workers that not all low priced imports are necessarily low quality.

[Hayley]

Having seen a huge variety of well made beads being sold for disturbingly low prices at several different wholesale gift shows, it could very well be that she did see beads like that for 25 cents at Michael's. There's some pretty good work coming out of China and India and the work coming in from Czech Republic, Poland, and Russia is as good as anything anybody here does - at a small fraction of what local beaders expect to sell for.

Just as important as educating the public, is the importance of educating local glass workers that not all low priced imports are necessarily low quality.

Well put, Dennis. I will probably get crucified for say this . . . Sometimes we fail to remember that the low priced imports were also made one by one by some lampworkers overseas. Just because they work for pennies doesn't necessarily mean that they can't produce quality products. Yes, they may not be that creative. Yes, they may just make round beads with raised flowers all day, 12 hours a day, seven days a week . . . but the beads they make are still hand crafted. I think they probably are much better crafted than my raised floral beads with all that practice!

[pam]

Dennis, as much as I hate to enter into a debate with you, may I just kindly suggest that the beads from these countries, if you are talking about the factory made beads, are not even close to what is available from the beadmaking artists in studios all over the world. I have looked at the work coming from these factories and they are basically simple beads made using a limited palette and using simple techniques. Although the beads are becoming somewhat more sophisticated, they do not equate at all to the more intricate work being performed in private studios by glass bead artists. They can't and they never will, because what you get from those factories are simple copies that can be executed in only a few minutes. While they are becoming more sophisticated in their work, so are the bead artists from whom the copies are made.

[Dennis Brady]

Dennis, as much as I hate to enter into a debate with you, may I just kindly suggest that the beads from these countries, if you are talking about the factory made beads, are not even close to what is available from the beadmaking artists in studios all over the world. I have looked at the work coming from these factories and they are basically simple beads made using a limited palette and using simple techniques. Although the beads are becoming somewhat more sophisticated, they do not equate at all to the more intricate work being performed in private studios by glass bead artists. They can't and they never will, because what you get from those factories are simple copies that can be executed in only a few minutes. While they are becoming more sophisticated in their work, so are the bead artists from whom the copies are made.

I think it's a mistake to assume that because imported beads are lower priced then locals, they must be low quality factory made. I also think it's wrong to assume that because they're made in a production run they are necessarily low quality or that they are copies. There's no reason to assume that beadmakers in other countries aren't capable of original design and high calibre workmanship.

I think the greatest imagineable mistake is your comment, "They can't and they never will". When stained glass lampshades starting coming in from China about 10 years ago, that's what all the local glass artisans said. Boy where they ever wrong - just as your comment is wrong.

[Dennis Brady]

. I think they probably are much better crafted than my raised floral beads with all that practice!

Anybody that plays a musical instrument thoroughly understands that repetitive practice produces high quality work.
It's silly to assume that because someone doesn't compose original music they're not able to play at the level of a symphony orchestra.

[pam]

Dennis, I never stated that the work done in some of these factories was low quality. However they are copies. They continually make copies of beads they have made before, that day, the day before. I never said they were not creative or capable of original design, but by the fact that they work in a factory and the factories sell multiple, multiple copies of the same design, they are in fact not being paid to make original designs, but rather to copy a design already in existence.

And I stand by my opinion that workers in a beadmaking factory can't and never will be able to compete in design and aesthetics with those studio artists who dedicate their time and energy to creating innovative designs. You may, of course, disagree with that statement, in your opinion through your experience with stained glass work, but I think even most novice lamp buyers can tell the difference in a factory made lamp and one done by an artist in that particular area of glass work.

[Dennis Brady]

I think even most novice lamp buyers can tell the difference in a factory made lamp and one done by an artist in that particular area of glass work.

Nope.

The first Chinese made lamps were low quality and easy to identify. They were low quality because the producers thought that's what the market expected. When they learned that the market wanted better work, they made them better. They got better until those now coming in from China are as good as, and often superior to, those made by any locals. It happened with stained glass, it happened with kilnformed glass, and it's happening with torchworked glass. If an American or Canadian artisan can do high quality work, so can a Chinese or Indian. Both countries have people that can put satellites into space and people that can build nuclear bombs. It's highly probable they have people that can make good quality glass beads.

[Firebrand Beads]

I think the point Pam is trying to make is that in order for the wholesaler to get such a good price, so the bead store can get a good price, so the retail customer can get a good price...*especially* the person who thinks a "good price" is 25 cents... means that some quality is likely to be sacrificed. I really don't think the overseas FACTORIES are allowing their "artisans" to spend a full hour, hour-and-a-half on a single bead because they can't get the price for it when it changes so many hands. I honestly don't think any of the mass-produced imports are ANYWHERE as good as most of the beads seen here, including my hour-and-a-half deep Lotus bead. I understand your essential point, Dennis, but there are reasons for all those recent Chinese product recalls.

[Dennis Brady]

I think the point Pam is trying to make is that in order for the wholesaler to get such a good price, so the bead store can get a good price, so the retail customer can get a good price...*especially* the person who thinks a "good price" is 25 cents... means that some quality is likely to be sacrificed. I really don't think the overseas FACTORIES are allowing their "artisans" to spend a full hour, hour-and-a-half on a single bead because they can't get the price for it when it changes so many hands. I honestly don't think any of the mass-produced imports are ANYWHERE as good as most of the beads seen here, including my hour-and-a-half deep Lotus bead. I understand your essential point, Dennis, but there are reasons for all those recent Chinese product recalls.

My essential point is that it is naive self-delusion to believe the Chinese are incapable of making beads of the same quality as those anybody here makes. The reality is that if the Chinese artisans believe they can improve their profits by making the same beads you make, they will make those same beads. That is exactly what happened with stained glass lamps, with kilnformed glass, and with thousands of other products the Chinese sell. Do you seriously believe that making glass beads requires a skill that is unique to North America?

[Firebrand Beads]

No - I just think that profit-minded mass-producers don't have time to do the detail we do. Period.

[Firebrand Beads]

And by "we" I mean those of us with the time to argue about "art" or "craft"! LOL

[Firebrand Beads]

And by the way, Dennis, I NEVER said the Chinese were INCAPABLE. That was your read.

[pam]

You know, Dennis, this is why I find it hard to have a discussion with you. You seem to not have read what I have written. No where did I say that Chinese artisans cannot make art glass beads equal to what is made by artists in the rest of the world. What I said, once again, in response to your remark about the low cost of imported beads that you have seen at wholesale gift shows, is "if you are talking about the factory made beads", that the FACTORY-MADE beads do not equal in any way to those made by studio artists throughout the world. No one has made a mention of North America except you. There are fantastic glass artists in all those countries you mentioned, however I don't believe they work in factories and if they do, they are not producing their artwork in those factories. I prefaced my whole remarks on IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTORY MADE BEADS.

[glasshouse]

Nicely put.

[Dennis Brady]

No - I just think that profit-minded mass-producers don't have time to do the detail we do. Period.

They definitely "have" the time - but have chosen to use that time for other purpose. The one thing that is in most limited supply is time. If you want to improve your personal income, you need to focus on what provides the greatest revenue for that time. How much you earn per bead is unimportant. How much you earn per hour is critical.

[Dennis Brady]

You know, Dennis, this is why I find it hard to have a discussion with you. You seem to not have read what I have written. No where did I say that Chinese artisans cannot make art glass beads equal to what is made by artists in the rest of the world. What I said, once again, in response to your remark about the low cost of imported beads that you have seen at wholesale gift shows, is "if you are talking about the factory made beads", that the FACTORY-MADE beads do not equal in any way to those made by studio artists throughout the world. No one has made a mention of North America except you. There are fantastic glass artists in all those countries you mentioned, however I don't believe they work in factories and if they do, they are not producing their artwork in those factories. I prefaced my whole remarks on IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTORY MADE BEADS.

Beads are beads. It makes no difference if they're made individually by individual artisans or in a production run at a huge factory. Quality is measured by the calibre of the end product - not by how they're made. There is no reason to assume that production run factory made beads are necessarily inferior.

[pam]

Dennis, this is not trying to be rude, but really, truthfully, do you even have a clue what you are talking about? Have you seen the beads the art glass beadmakers create? Have you looked in the gallery section of this very forum? Have you glanced through the bead magazines?

Yes, when people start out making beads they are quite similar to what is coming out of the factories. The design and color selection is simple, because the beadmaker is learning his/her trade. As they progress in glass beadmaking their designs become more intricate and their choice of colors more sophisticated. The range of techniques are complicated, requiring time and knowledge and experience. The knowledge one would learn sitting on a torch all day making identical beads in a factory setting cannot be compared to the knowledge one would gain by sitting on a torch in a home studio setting where you are free to go where your muse takes you. Most glass bead artists I know have spent years honing their skills, learning various techniques and developing their own, putting those skills together in unusual ways so that their art stands out from someone elses. The factories do not have the time, even at the low, low wages they pay, to allow their workers the opportunity to garner these skills and I am sure many, many of the factory workers have no interest in learning them.

The factories don't copy? Please, do a search on this forum and find the many, many threads where a beadmaker has found their pictures stolen from their websites or ebay auctions and placed on the factory websites where the factory owners have placed a price for replicating that set of beads. Are they capable of designing their own beads? Yes, but do they? Perhaps some of them do, but I know of bead artists in various countries that sell their designs to the factories for replication. Why should they bother allowing their workers to take the time and energy it takes to develop their own designs when they can easily purchase those designs from more knowledgeable artists?

Why would you come on a bead forum and make statements like you have made? I had thought it was to sell kilns, but obviously that is secondary to whatever agenda you have. Perhaps you want to be considered the expert in glass beads? If so, then please start by educating yourself as to what glass beadmaking is all about and what can be achieved by a single artist sitting at a torch with no one telling them what to make and how to make it. Take a look at some of the websites linked here and you will find that in every case they surpass anything achieved by your factories.

[Dennis Brady]

. Are they capable of designing their own beads? Yes, but do they?

Let's return to your statement that I made a point of disputing.

They can't and they never will,

I still dispute it. There is no reason to assume any foreign artisans or any foreign factory is incapable of producing fine quality beads. The fact that they elected instead to make low price high volume selling beads does NOT mean they aren't capable of anything else. The identical argument you're using was also used about the first cars being imported from Japan. Our locals insisted, "They can't make cars as good as the ones made here and they never will". Have you rode in a Lexus? Not only are the Japanese making cars as good as anything made in the USA, the marketplace statistics suggest they're making much better cars.

Why am I here? It has been suggested that beadmakers need to educate the public about beads. From the posts in this thread, I think it's equally necessary to educate beadmakers about marketplace realities. One of those realities is that making glass beads isn't some unique and special skill that can't be learned and duplicated by foreign artisans - whether they work alone or in a factory production line.

My response to your "They can't and never will", is "They definitely can and they definitely will - as soon as decide they can sell enough to be worth doing".

[pam]

So you are here to educate beadmakers about marketplace realities. That's very kind of you.

And once again you are taking things out of context and adding your own spin. I never said that there are "special skill that can't be learned and duplicated by foreign artisans". I have no idea where you get your interpretations from. I said that the skills and techniques exhibited by glass bead studio artists all over the world cannot be duplicated by the factories. If at some point the factories were to grow to the point where they have the skill to produce the art glass beads that are being made today, the artists producing those beads today would have already moved on. One area of the world of art glass beads doesn't stop and wait for another to catch up. The main force behind the art glass bead movement is the ingenuity of the artists themselves, the creative energy put into this art form. We're not following patterns, Dennis, we are making this up as we go along, and although factories are capable of producing simple beads, the fact of the matter is that they do not have the skill and knowledge to catch up to studio artists around the world who every day are developing new skills and new techniques and new ways to use glass.

[Dennis Brady]

And once again you are taking things out of context and adding your own spin.

My statements are completely within context and any spin being added isn't coming from me. You said, "They can't and they never will". I claim that statement is 100% wrong. I believe they can and believe they will whenever it's too their advantage.

I never said that there are "special skill that can't be learned and duplicated by foreign artisans". I have no idea where you get your interpretations from.

My interpretation comes from your statement, "They can't and they never will". How else should that be interpreted?

[swamper]

Good post, Pam. Very insiteful.

Aspiring artist.....



Dennis, this is not trying to be rude, but really, truthfully, do you even have a clue what you are talking about? Have you seen the beads the art glass beadmakers create? Have you looked in the gallery section of this very forum? Have you glanced through the bead magazines?

Yes, when people start out making beads they are quite similar to what is coming out of the factories. The design and color selection is simple, because the beadmaker is learning his/her trade. As they progress in glass beadmaking their designs become more intricate and their choice of colors more sophisticated. The range of techniques are complicated, requiring time and knowledge and experience. The knowledge one would learn sitting on a torch all day making identical beads in a factory setting cannot be compared to the knowledge one would gain by sitting on a torch in a home studio setting where you are free to go where your muse takes you. Most glass bead artists I know have spent years honing their skills, learning various techniques and developing their own, putting those skills together in unusual ways so that their art stands out from someone elses. The factories do not have the time, even at the low, low wages they pay, to allow their workers the opportunity to garner these skills and I am sure many, many of the factory workers have no interest in learning them.

The factories don't copy? Please, do a search on this forum and find the many, many threads where a beadmaker has found their pictures stolen from their websites or ebay auctions and placed on the factory websites where the factory owners have placed a price for replicating that set of beads. Are they capable of designing their own beads? Yes, but do they? Perhaps some of them do, but I know of bead artists in various countries that sell their designs to the factories for replication. Why should they bother allowing their workers to take the time and energy it takes to develop their own designs when they can easily purchase those designs from more knowledgeable artists?

Why would you come on a bead forum and make statements like you have made? I had thought it was to sell kilns, but obviously that is secondary to whatever agenda you have. Perhaps you want to be considered the expert in glass beads? If so, then please start by educating yourself as to what glass beadmaking is all about and what can be achieved by a single artist sitting at a torch with no one telling them what to make and how to make it. Take a look at some of the websites linked here and you will find that in every case they surpass anything achieved by your factories.

[swamper]

And again, I agree with you....

So you are here to educate beadmakers about marketplace realities. That's very kind of you.

And once again you are taking things out of context and adding your own spin. I never said that there are "special skill that can't be learned and duplicated by foreign artisans". I have no idea where you get your interpretations from. I said that the skills and techniques exhibited by glass bead studio artists all over the world cannot be duplicated by the factories. If at some point the factories were to grow to the point where they have the skill to produce the art glass beads that are being made today, the artists producing those beads today would have already moved on. One area of the world of art glass beads doesn't stop and wait for another to catch up. The main force behind the art glass bead movement is the ingenuity of the artists themselves, the creative energy put into this art form. We're not following patterns, Dennis, we are making this up as we go along, and although factories are capable of producing simple beads, the fact of the matter is that they do not have the skill and knowledge to catch up to studio artists around the world who every day are developing new skills and new techniques and new ways to use glass.

[glassbead]

Ok. I don't really want to get involved in an argument, 'cause I'm no good at that, and don't have the time to sit here defending my statements, but here goes anyway!
Of course the Chinese, or anyone else could produce beautiful art beads. I think part of Pam's point is that the factories are not doing that at this time; at least I haven't seen them. The $.25 beads are nothing like the beads being produced by artisans all over the world. And yes, there are bead artisans all over the world who are producing beautiful lampwork.
Is there competition from China and other countries? Yes. Will it get better? Yes. But those of us making lampwork beads more or less full time have to hope we can stay ahead of the game, and that our ingenuity will keep us there. And, of course, that our local communities will help support us in our endeavors.
Ok, wish me luck with this post !!!

[Hayley]

I am with you for not wanting to get in the middle of this argument (I did that already with the craft and functional issues! lol!), glassbead, but Dennis' comments did get me thinking.

Who is to say that the factories wouldn't decide to really compete in the glass market, not just simple basic round beads with decorations, but get into the artisan lampwork beads . . . and decide to pull the workers from the floor that show creative potential (like the ones who decide to add elements to the prototype beads on their own and are considered "bad" factory worker!). What if they have a "design" department where they actually create but use the workers on the factory floor to duplicate the original design, instead of copying? They have the cheap labor and they have the labor pool, all they need are a few artisans.

The fashion industry has been doing it forever. . . when it goes from couture to off the rack. Instead of having the chief designer design one-of-a-kind piece that sells for $10,000, the chief designer and his/her design team come up with the prototype and the factories produce 10,000 of them that sell for $50.

Now, that scares me . . .

[Dennis Brady]

Now, that scares me . .

It should - because that is EXACTLY how the Chinese manufacturers operate. When they started making stained glass lampshades, they were simple panel lamps. Then they moved up to Tiffany reproduction designs. When buyers complained about workmanship quality, the workmanship was improved - it was improved to where they're now cut out with computer controlled robotic water jets. Chinese lampshades aren't just well made - they're perfectly made. The Chinese production technology is a full generation ahead of us. The Chinese factories making kilnformed glass aren't manually loading plates and vases into kilns - they're running them on conveyor systems through tunnel kilns. Glass blowing is done with compressed air and molds for high speed production of perfect forms. Numerous techniques are in development for alternative ways to expedite making all forms of glass work - including glass beads. There's no reason a bead base can't be production cast and just manually add varying elements with a torch. Several Chinese glass makers are now producing fuse compatible glass. It's already distributed extensively in Europe and will soon be here.

It might make a local artisan feel good to believe that the Chinese can't do what they do, but that's a naive and delusional belief unsupported by the reality of what the Chinese are really capable of.

[pam]

Hayley, glassbead, don't ever think you are getting in the middle of an argument. First of all, it is not an argument, but a discussion, and second of all, everyone is free to express their opinions. I have seen some wonderful opinions expressed in this thread. Even though I may not agree with all of them, I do respect the right of others to have their own opinions. However I take exception when someone says that factory-made beads are the same as artist made beads. That point I can and do take great exception to and will defend studio made beads over factory made beads any day. To me there is very little comparison.

[prairieson]

...The Chinese production technology is a full generation ahead of us. ...Glass blowing is done with compressed air and molds for high speed production of perfect forms...

While I can't speak for kilnforming or flameworking, I can say that as far as glassblowing is concerned, this is nothing at all new. Michael J Owens (http://www.todayinsci.com/O/Owens_MichaelJ/OwensMichaelJ.htm) (as in Owens-Corning or Libbey-Owens-Ford) developed automatic glassblowing machines nearly a century ago.

Also, todays glassblowers were born from a legacy of industrial-type production, the lone-wolf artisanal glassblower has only been around for 45 years or so. As glassblowers, we don't feel competition from automatic, mass produced "perfect" glass, rather our competition comes from places like Pismo, Fenton, Kokomo, Steuben, and dozens of others all over the world. As a result we come into our art, or at least should, with eyes open to the fact that we're small fish in a huge pond and we strive to do work that distinguishes itself, something that warrants paying several times more than what one pays for a similar product at Pier 1.

Or we change our surname to one that ends in a vowel, heheheh. Hmmm... Cramerini... Crameruli... Cramerietra... gonna have to work on that.

So while glassblowers certainly understand the dilemma, theirs is a distinctly different one.

[pam]

John, thank you and you are absolutely correct. Beadmakers come from a very similar legacy. Although glass beads of any size have always been handmade, they were not made with the energy, creative mind and ingenuity that we see today in studio glass beads. That is what our forte is and what we have "over" what we now call factory-made beads. There is no comparison in what a factory worker makes in minutes to what a studio artist taking time and their creative ability may take hours to make. The factories cannot do what we do and they never will.

And Dennis, I have explained this statement several times, and I stand by this statement. That is my reality of the marketplace. You have the right to your opinion, as I have the right to mine. I think one must learn to respect the art involved and to realize that a factory doesn't make art. And just as another little comment. I know a gentleman who took three years to make a stained glass lamp. It was his own design and it has over 10,000 pieces of glass in it. He went to Bullseye and hand-picked glass that he meticulously cut so that the flow of the designs in the glass complimented the artistic nature of the lamp. He is a true artist and although his intent on making it was not what it could bring in the marketplace, the lamp sold for an extraordinary amount of money. Obviously there are people in the world who can tell the difference between art and factory-made items.

[glassbead]

Prarieson, thanks for your comments. I don't personally feel threatened by factory-made beads, but just try and concentrate on doing the best work I can, maintaining quality, and continuing to learn. And I find that many people are still impressed when they see what I make, they love meeting the artisan (or whatever we want to call it!), and know that they haven't really seen anything quite like it before. Selling directly to the public at my farmer's market has shown me a lot about how people react, and also about what people react to. When I started selling, most of my beads were round. Now hardly any of them are- it's one thing that readily visually separates me from 'regular' beads. So part of what has sent me in that direction might be called market pressure. I can't imagine making a lot of round beads any more; I rarely even like them.
And maybe I should be worried about all those cheap lampwork beads flooding the market, but I just can't be bothered. If it eventually knocks me out as a seller, I'll just have to figure out a different way to attempt to make a living, while I continue to make beads anyway!
And Pam, thanks for participating in this forum too. You have a lot of insight. I must go look at some of your beads now!

[glassbead]

Oh, THAT Pam! I do have a question about your website. Is there a way to see who made which beads? I notice some have Barbs signature on the pictures. Is that how you tell? Your fish are, of course, lovely, Pam.

[pam]

Hmmm, the fish and the necklaces are mine. Everything else is Barb's. Barb keeps the website up and uses it a lot. I basically don't!!! Thanks for asking, though. Right now I have pretty much stopped doing fish and am concentrating on dragon beads. I LOVE dragons and always have, and just figured out a way in the last year or so to make them happen for me.

[klcbeads]

I think this discussion has veered into marketing and business competition. I don't think a real artist would care what China is producing, or the next artist for that matter. The most famous artists of our time were starving artists, and no one knew them for the most part till after their death and someone who acquired their art sold it. Simple as that.

[glassbead]

klc, you're right, there's been quite a veer. Of course, this is the way these discussions go, from one thing to another. As I said, I can't really be bothered about who makes what generally. My sig other keeps me on track with that- it's tempting to care, but not productive, and ultimately doesn't matter. You do what you do the best you can do it, continue to learn and grow, and just live your life!

[pam]

That's why studio artists are so great, we don't care what others are doing, or even what they call us, we just want to continue along our pathway doing what we do and growing in our own way. Sorry for the veer in the thread!!