A Personal Rant About Glass $

[swamper]

This is just my opinion but maybe there's someone else who agrees....who knows....

I am concerned about the rising costs of glass...what with several of the vendors putting Vetrofond on sale and such it makes me wonder what the mark-up on glass is anyway.

Not that I really care about folks making money, but it doesn't need to be so high. Kinda like the oil industry - just how much profit do you need?

I don't buy a lot of the new stuff that comes out right away because it's priced so high - I'd rather wait and see how it looks in other folks beads before I invest.

Just because something is an odd lot and you can get a lot on money for it doesn't mean you should. If the regular Vetrofond and Moretti can be $7-10 per pound why do the odd lots have to be $24 a pound?

And the silver glasses $100 a pound - yeah, I know that it takes money to develope a color but geeze, do you have to keep making gobs of money on it even after you have perfected it?

I know there will be some less than agreeable posts to this thread from vendors. But this is how I feel.

Can't we (meaning you) keep the costs of glass down to within reasonable limits?

To my way of thinking anything over $20 a pound is out of reach and I won't often try it.

I feel better. I just had to get that off my chest.

[Kevan]

From what I understand, most glass itself is not expensive. Meaning the ingredients are not really expensive, but producing the glass is expensive. Especially for smaller "boutique" glass companies. Developing colors that are consistent and reliable for the beadmaker is also expensive.

[swamper]

Adding, most of what I buy is in the $7 to $10 range per pound. If those colors were developed and maunfactured at that price range then others should be able to be done cheaply as well.

Manufactures have resources to do it but we as beadmakers have become so greedy for new colors that they can charge pretty much what they darn well please and many will gobble it up and not choke on the cost at all.

[KristiB]

Linda

I can't speak for the Italian glass.. but the silver glass makes sense to me. Smaller company, most of the glasses have a high silver content. Silver prices are going through the roof. I'm surprised there hasn't been a price increase in some of the silver glasses because of it. I suspect it's coming.

Also keep in mind, that it takes money to get the glass here, taxes, duties, freight, forwarding costs, as well as exchange rates (the dollar is currently the worst it's been against the Euro) I would imagine each order is a huge outlay of cash because of minimums that need to be purchased and sometimes the glass just sits there for months and months. Inventory turns mean a better profit margin, etc, etc,

I'm not trying to confirm the validity of the prices, just throwing out a few things to consider.

Kristi

[PaulaD]

I can tell you this...The U.S. dollar is down over 40% vs. the Euro since Bush came into office. So there is a 40% increase right there. There are also heavy fees to import and freight is expensive. Raw materials are spiraling so out of control that I have been wondering if some of the factories are keeping certain colors artificially low just to keep manufacturing. Plus who has the 20 or 30 grand that it costs every time they want to import? So someone is now paying interest on a loan so they can do a bigger buy and hopefully spread out importing costs. And if they pay out of their pocket they now loose the "opportunity" to invest the money elsewhere ("Opportunity costs") while the glass is sitting on a shelf waiting to get sold. If a factory is manufacturing the Silver Glasses they are using other chemicals too and now required to meet a host of OSHA rules and regulations and that all costs money. Plus there's the hired help to pay, labor to cut up and wash glass, advertising costs, website & commerce costs, etc. As a reseller I spend a dollar a box and usually another dollar for bubble wrap and peanuts. On most orders less than $50.00 to $75.00 I often don't break even. Believe me I could never support myself on profit from my glass business.It's been a lot of fun but I'd be starving to death. .Linda you brought up a good question. I don't know the deal on the Vetrofond. Hopefully, other dealers can answer it better than me.
Paula

[PaulaD]

p.s. I've seen really pretty beads made out of inexpensive glass! And lots of hand mixed colors that are pretty too!

Paula

[Just Nancy]

I think much of the pricing is materials. Not all glass has the same materials. There are plenty of handpulled or odd lots that command a higher price than the basic white or black from the main European companies. The cost of fuel to produce and ship glass is going to become a key in the pricing, but those costs are across the board. Same with the exchange rate. Those increases impact white from a company the same as a high demand small batch odd lot.

The glass from the start up companies, like it or not, have the same costs in materials and fuel but no place else to absorb cost increases. So as silver jumps, their glass will. I figure it is a fact of business like anything else. I really don't expect it to change.

Maybe that isn't the question and I'm off base with my reply. (Hope not.)

As with all things I recognize all I can do is buy what I can afford.

[Dennis Brady]

Why would it be necessry to use expensive glass when inexpensive is available?
Doesn't quality work depend more on the design then the materials?
Is the quality of a painting determined by the talent of the painter or the quality of the paints?

[Reenie]

I'm not sure if my little input will help answer any questions but I have to agree with some who have already posted here. I have glass coming from overseas and I'm paying double what they are asking because of the dollar vs euro. It really took me back. Not only do I have to pay more for the glass, then I have to pay custom fees. Then they charge you to hold it in a holding area until it passes customs. Every day it sits there is more money. (Could be $600 for 2-3 days) Then there are the broker fees for the guys I've hired to get it out of customs for me. You have to buy a bond for the glass, then they charge a fee to do the work for you since I can't drive out there. Then you have to pay a trucking company to get it from wherever the ship dropped it off to you. Then you pay extra for a stupid pallet jack for them to actually set it down off the truck. Combine all that with the price of boxes, bubble wrap, peanuts, labels, ink for labels....I think you get the picture.
As far as other forms of glass. I just set my prices to be comparable with other companies. The BIG companies like Arrow Springs, Frantz and a few others...they have to pay rent on the building that they are in. Plus they have mucho employees. So they have alot of overhead to take care of.
The sales that you have seen on Vetrofond in the past and you'll see another one soon ;-) is just a sale and not much profit is being made but maybe because you've saved money on this brand of glass....you might be willing to purchase other glass at regular price. It might work out in the long run....I'm not sure as I've not offered glass that cheap yet. Time will tell.
Hope that helps!
Irene

[mtnglass]

Why would it be necessry to use expensive glass when inexpensive is available?
Doesn't quality work depend more on the design then the materials?
Is the quality of a painting determined by the talent of the painter or the quality of the paints?

Bingo! All you have to do is look on eBay and see that the beads that bring the highest prices are generally done with the less expensive glass.

Julie

[tgslampwork]

Regarding the silver glasses, I remember reading something about the silver being hard on the equipment, causing more frequent replacement of it - also adding to the high cost of the glass.

[tgslampwork]

And, all of this makes me wonder...if one makes a bead with $2 worth of glass and it sells for $60, surely nobody here would be questioning the artist's mark-up.

Sometimes it's hard to see it from the other side...

[Dennis Brady]

Bingo! All you have to do is look on eBay and see that the beads that bring the highest prices are generally done with the less expensive glass.

Julie

I wonder how often artisans chose to buy expensive glass to avoid learning difficult techniques?

[Dennis Brady]

And, all of this makes me wonder...if one makes a bead with $2 worth of glass and it sells for $60, surely nobody here would be questioning the artist's mark-up.

Sometimes it's hard to see it from the other side...

I think labour cost is much more important than materials cost. If a higher cost glass allows for a reduction in labour, the end result might be a combined total lower cost. If a higher cost glass allows for a higher selling price, the end result might be higher profit.

For a hobbyist, the cost of materials is important. For a professional, the cost of materials is related only to finished selling price - and often such a small percentage it's almost irrelevant.
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[KristiB]

I wonder how often artisans chose to buy expensive glass to avoid learning difficult techniques?

Or to buy presses to avoid learning how to shape the glass.

[Dennis Brady]

Or to buy presses to avoid learning how to shape the glass.

Artisans that use press molds consider them a labour saving device to improve profits by reducing the time needed to make something. Glass blowers and kilnformers have been using them for centuries. A torchworker using a press mold is pretty much the same as a kilnformer using a casting or slumping mold. Why make something by hand that's "pretty good" when you can use a mold to make it "perfect"?

If local glass artisans expect to compete with imports, they'll have to adopt production efficiencies. Adapt or die.

Most professional artisans will adopt whatever method is the most efficient. The "purists" are more likely the amateurs. A skilled woodworker can probably make their own plywood, but why would they when they can readily buy it premade. Why form something by hand that can be done better and quicker with a mold?

[tgslampwork]

I'm guessing that the folks at Double Helix, for instance, work many hours.

I think labour cost is much more important than materials cost. If a higher cost glass allows for a reduction in labour, the end result might be a combined total lower cost. If a higher cost glass allows for a higher selling price, the end result might be higher profit.

For a hobbyist, the cost of materials is important. For a professional, the cost of materials is related only to finished selling price - and often such a small percentage it's almost irrelevant.
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[dicrodi]

Just another reason I love Bullseye. It's made in this country, no import fees, waiting, etc. Not to say I don't buy other glass, but BE has a beautiful pallet, that I just love and I'd rather support an industry in this country before it goes the way of everything else and you can't get it made in this country. Something to think about when everything is getting outsourced... Just my opinion. Dicrodi

[Kevan]

Why would it be necessry to use expensive glass when inexpensive is available?
Doesn't quality work depend more on the design then the materials?
Is the quality of a painting determined by the talent of the painter or the quality of the paints?

Yep. What did John Lennon say - I'm an artist. Give me a turnip and I'll get something out of it.;-)

[DesertDreamer]

Why would it be necessry to use expensive glass when inexpensive is available?
Doesn't quality work depend more on the design then the materials?
Is the quality of a painting determined by the talent of the painter or the quality of the paints?

Having just recovered from an episode involving inferior paints, I honestly have to say "both."

I was complimented by a challenge to create a special award scroll for someone. Lots of research, lots of preliminary layouts, got everything just right. Laid my background color down, let it dry for a few days (this is gouache on a special piece of real vellum), then began to apply the detail areas. I took a short break and realized that the background colors was all over my hand, in teeny tiny chips! I bought a 'lesser than student' brand because that was the only one that had my required color last week. <sigh> I bought a tube of Winsor & Newton later that day, instead, definitely NOT a sale price. I finished the 3rd layer today and everything is going great, now.

Sometimes better materials DO make for a better outcome.

I also remember the "Priceless International Glass" debacle, about 9 or 10 years ago. Not cheap glass...utterly inferior crap. I still miss that lovely moonstone white, but I don't miss the frustration of using it one bit. [-(

And I'd pay TWICE the price for some glass (Gail's Duo Canes come to mind), just because it's so beautiful to begin with.

ETA: All costs are going up, it's just a reflection of the economy as a whole. Whatever it is, transportation is always a factor, and raw materials costs are shooting up, too. Paints use a lot of the same pigments, and I've seen prices rising accordingly. A friend of mine paints in oils and his canvas costs have more than doubled. Don't even get me started about the price of silver! <sob>

[ksglass]

Just another reason I love Bullseye. It's made in this country, no import fees, waiting, etc. Not to say I don't buy other glass, but BE has a beautiful pallet, that I just love and I'd rather support an industry in this country before it goes the way of everything else and you can't get it made in this country. Something to think about when everything is getting outsourced... Just my opinion. Dicrodi
=D>
95% of my beads are made with Bullseye glass. I am grateful there is a U.S. source for a wide variety of colors..... And I will continue to support them buy buying their rods as I did when I was into stained glass and buying their sheet glass a dozen years ago.

Yes, it is more $ per pound than your basic colors of Italian or German glass BUT I am willing to pay a few bucks more for a stable, fully compatible American made product. Just like I am willing to pay a $1 more per yard of fabric to support my local quilt fabric store....or my favorite local Mom & Pop restaurant.

No, I don't buy the high dollar silver boutique glass. I think they are trying to replicate boro. If I want a boro look, I work with boro and have a wonderful array of colors and not fork out all the money.

Just my 2 cents.

[NLC Beads]

I'm sure I'm a dissenting opinion in the crowd, but when I consider what a truly niche market my obsession is the prices don't seem unreasonable.

1# of glass lasts a long time, even if I make bigger beads. And let's say I'm using a Vetrofond odd lot, full priced at $24/lb. How many hours of entertainment will that be - because above all else, melting glass is fun for me. Now compared to other things at a per hour cost - going to see movies, sporting events, renting movies even... It's a steal. (And, as the saying goes, cheaper than therapy.)

And that's not even getting into how many times over you can remake your initial glass cost investment even if you're just making spacers and selling those...

While I'll shop for deals (who doesn't?) I will never have a problem with glass prices from tried and true dealers and brands.

ETA: I am not a vendor, related to any vendor, nor do I have any personal stake in any vendor's sales. The above statement is as an artist and Sheep Goddess alone. That said, I do think our vendors kick ass bringing us beautiful colors, tools, and things to play with. Thanks to all of you!

[KEW]

Just another reason I love Bullseye. It's made in this country, no import fees, waiting, etc. Not to say I don't buy other glass, but BE has a beautiful pallet, that I just love and I'd rather support an industry in this country before it goes the way of everything else and you can't get it made in this country. Something to think about when everything is getting outsourced... Just my opinion. Dicrodi

This is exactly the reason I switched to BE. I got sick and tired of paying a whole lot for what were essentially mistakes and duplication was questionable. The final straw for me was all those corals that weren't coral at all. [Yes, I know lots of you loved them, and tell yourself (and call the colors) whatever you want, but they weren't coral.]

[dicrodi]

Well... all of the BE girls just stand up and dance..... OMG Elizabeth.. you're a quilter too.. Fire and fiber how much better can it get? Unless of course, its
(as Tink says) glass, fire, and chemicals ( I think I left something out) I started using BE years ago as a fuser and bought the rods just to make attachments for my larger items but then of course got hooked on lampworking. I still do both and mainly use BE although I have lots of 104's , just have to be really organized with putting one away before working with the other. Although most of my income comes from the fusing end I'm working more and more on saleable lampworking . I just love making little works for art and it's much faster than fusing. My quilting hours have suffered only get a couple a year done now. The BE rods are always consistent in quality and color so I know I can depend on the colors and outcome if someone wants a duplicate. I'm a happy camper with it and can experiment with the other high silver glasses for fun. Dicrodi \\:D/

[swamper]

I wonder how often artisans chose to buy expensive glass to avoid learning difficult techniques?


Bingo!

[swamper]

And, all of this makes me wonder...if one makes a bead with $2 worth of glass and it sells for $60, surely nobody here would be questioning the artist's mark-up.

Sometimes it's hard to see it from the other side...

See that's the whole point of this thread - well, partly anyway. I don't want to sell my beads for $60 - I want to sell them lower so I can get them off the shelves and make more, different beads.

I usually price my focals differently based on glass used and difficulty - recently I took over 100 beads to the bead store on consignment and priced them all at $16 retail - called them "Gas Pump Relief" beads - sales have been slow and if stuff is not moving off the shelf, what am I going to do with the new beads I am making?

I liked the posts about BE - that is definately a consideration for me - good grief, what would I do with 300-400 pounds of 104 - including the 10 diffeent shades of coral?

[lunamoonshadow]

I'm sure some well-priced 104 would move quite quickly in the garage sale area--it always does. Especially the coral....(hint...hint...) Some of us are quite happy to pay for those odd corals...(Nikki--if you get there first, I'm away for the day--get it for me! :lol:)

I :love: a few of the silver glasses for what they DO, not because my beads aren't very good & I'm trying to make them something they're not--they're not great--I know that--but I love the effects I get FROM the silver glass--I can't get a little rainbow swirl from other glass. Has nothing to do with "not wanting to master glass"--I'm doing that as I go along :roll:

Ditto on the presses. I happen to love the lentil shape, I was *buying* lentil shaped beads for a couple specific designs, it made sense to me to learn that press for uniform beads in uniform sizes for the design I produce in jewelry--not because I'm avoiding learning something else about the glass, but because I have a specific use for the beads in mind (ironically, those are made with "cheap" glass in basic colors too!)

I mix & match my "expensive" rods of glass with my "cheap" glass, so it goes further, (sort of like using expensive spices on things like rice or noodles to make them taste better) but if I get the whim to use a rod of say, opal yellow, I'm going to do it--even if I know it's $$$ glass (thanks Nikki for the opal yellow!) because it's FUN! And if I can't have fun with the glass, well, then what exactly is the point? I'll read everything I can online to avoid doing something silly (like burning out rubino, or putting frit on ivory & getting black spots) but to say that new people should only use basic colors, or shouldn't use "new" glass is just stupid--that's like saying kids should only eat cereal or macaroni & cheese or wear generic brand clothing or play outside & have no storebought toys! Just because our beads aren't fantastic (expensive) artwork doesn't mean we don't want to make spacers in the coolest colors!

[Tink]

I love Bullseye glass. I love that it's consistent. I love that it's made here in the US. I love that it's a bit stiffer --- Makes it perfect for blowing! I love their quality control and the fact that they, as a company, are so organized. Unfortunately, I just can't embrace their opaque colors. There's a "milky" look to many of them, or a lack of color saturation. The transparents are fabulous! I *love* the folks at Bullseye.

But I'm fickle. I like trying as many different products out there as I can find. Some are dirt cheap. Some are amazingly expensive. On a piece-by-piece basis, I know that I use about 6" of glass (average diameter cane) in a standard vessel. My standard vessels are priced at $50 each, which I think is pretty reasonable. I know I can get about 13 vessels out of one pound of glass, including typical waste. That's $650 of standard product out of one pound of glass. Whether that glass costs me $8/lb or $100/lb, there's still plenty of room to make a profit.

My higher priced vessels aren't typically based upon higher material costs, but on time and technique. I have a pretty good formula that I use. I know what to add if a vessel is encased or double encased. I know what I need to add for my lensed vessels. Or for wings. Or for any other technique that requires additional time or includes proprietary techniques that I'm the only one doing at this point.

I don't have a lot of the high-silver glasses. I have a little bit, and I enjoy the options that it affords me. But I guess you could say that my work is technique-based as opposed to materials-based. Give me some black and ivory and a rod or two of other $8/lb glasses, and I'm just as happy as a clam. It's all in what I do with it.

ETA: I kind of went off on a tangent there and didn't address the whole issue of "Just because something is an odd lot and you can get a lot of money for it doesn't mean you should". The whole "odd lot" thing had the potential of going in three directions:

Odd lots being popular because they are different, making the price for them higher
Odd lots being shunned because they are different, which would drive the price lower
Odd lots being looked at as just another color in the palette, making their price the same as the original intended color (such as original coral)

Because the glass community embraced the colors, making them popular, it drove the price up. In a free market society, it's all about supply and demand. Higher prices for these colors makes sense to me, just as higher prices (yes, even $100/lb) for the high-silver colors seem reasonable.

Your cost for making whatever you make will be ten times higher using $100/lb glass vs $10/lb glass, of course. I don't know what the going rate is for simple beads and spacers, but even if you make them from 100% high-silver glass (instead of just using it as an accent or design element), a bead made from 1" of standard cane will only cost you $1.28 in materials, on average.

Some folks can do incredible things with the high-silver glasses, making their end product very marketable even at a much higher price than the same size/shape bead made with colors from the standard palette. It ends up paying for itself. But trying to capitalize on that difference in a local market is a whole other kettle of fish.

I only sell at one place locally: The Toledo Museum of Art Gallery. I can guarantee you that I couldn't sell any of my vessels for more than $10 at our local bead store. It's just not the right place for my work. No matter what glass you use, it's always a good idea to find the best possible market for selling your work. Being able to sell it for more makes the higher cost of some glasses pretty much a moot point.

IMO, of course.

[Sue in Maine]

But it's hard when you have to decide between keeping the kids or hawking them to buy expensive glass!

And it's hard when you have to decide between treating yourself to an expensive glass or doing whatever financially responsible thing you SHOULD do instead. I also wish the prices would come down.

I see both sides...

Sue

[StacyLynne]

Why would it be necessry to use expensive glass when inexpensive is available?
Doesn't quality work depend more on the design then the materials?
Is the quality of a painting determined by the talent of the painter or the quality of the paints?

I feel that it is both. For the glass worker the quality is the same but the look you get with one type of glass might not be there with another type. (Speaking of the silvered glass verses the less expensive glass.)

As far as painting goes It is the quality of the paints and the talent of the artist, that will bring the two together. Use low quality materials and you just might not be happy with the outcome of your painting down the line.

Have you ever noticed the cost of reds, pinks, yellows, purples, oranges, in glass is more expensive? Its because of the gold properties they use to make the glass. It seems only reasonable to have the glass higher priced, such as the silvered glass.

So some blues, greens and other like colors would be cheaper, the quality is just the same. Its what is put in it that makes the difference.

On another note someone was talking about presses. Not the price of them but what they do, This made me start thinking about how expensive it is to make the brass tools that are out on the market today. We (in some cases)
dont think twice about paying our hard earned money on tools to get the job done so it would only be right to do the same thing with glass you like and want to use.

Costs are going up everywhere, The cost for us to make our brass tools is high, and getting higher.
The labor is intense as we do everything by hand, We don't have expensive machines that cut our brass, or polish our tools. We do everything by hand. everything.
When we talk about our tools and the money we make off them we laugh and say profit? what Profit? Which I think is what Double Helix is doing to. They pull and mix all the glass and the silver is high, depending on the market price.

In some cases we have had it pretty good for a long time. Prices rise and so does the price of glass and tools. Its uncomfortable and I don't like it one bit but its a fact. Ok off to work. Stacy (SL)

[glassactcc]

Ha, you are funny. I'm down to one kid:fnwl: I use very little silver glass. I don't like the silvers or dichros overdone. Just bits for accents. I really only use silver glasses for froggies so I probably have enough to last me three lifetimes! I'm selling off my Bullseye (in the Garage Sale if anyone is interested). I just don't want to learn a whole new color scheme, and figure out cane and what color does what and so on, and so on and it doesn't flow like 104.


But it's hard when you have to decide between keeping the kids or hawking them to buy expensive glass!

And it's hard when you have to decide between treating yourself to an expensive glass or doing whatever financially responsible thing you SHOULD do instead. I also wish the prices would come down.

I see both sides...

Sue

[PaulaD]

I would definitely sell the kids...I love to try all colors. I don't need a lot of them. And the silvered glasses are FAB. You only need tiny bits to do great things.
Paula

[*Naos*]

But I'm fickle. I like trying as many different products out there as I can find. Some are dirt cheap. Some are amazingly expensive. On a piece-by-piece basis, I know that I use about 6" of glass (average diameter cane) in a standard vessel. My standard vessels are priced at $50 each, which I think is pretty reasonable. I know I can get about 13 vessels out of one pound of glass, including typical waste. That's $650 of standard product out of one pound of glass. Whether that glass costs me $8/lb or $100/lb, there's still plenty of room to make a profit.

Bingo! I often like the Odd Lots because they work really well with silver and enamels, my two main bead ingredients! Also, the colors are fantastic!

If I spend $30 for a 1/4# of glass (about 5-6 rods) and I make $30 on ONE focal made from the glass - the glass is then paid for and I still have enough glass left to make about 12 focals - let's say avg price $25.00 ea... I have the potential to make $300 for $30.

And that's the main reason why I don't make sets. Sets use a lot of glass and the profit margin is crap for me. I do much better with one focal.

[swamper]

I feel I haven't expressed myself well. Reading through the threads. Yes it is possible to make a nice profit even with the Expensive silver glasses - Yes, if one has mastered the art of beadmaking, it is possible to make nice beads without the expensive glasses.

But here's my worry. If we as a group gobble up every thing that is new and exciting no matter the cost, sooner or later the prices will increase "just because they can". The costs will increase to whatever the market will bear and we as a group are showing that we are eager enough to pay what ever is asked.

That is my concern - rising costs just because the market wll tolerate it.

Someone else spoke of creating art with low costs paints - but painters pretty much create their own colors with the pallette of colors they have regardless of whether is entry level paint or professional paints - I don't think paint manufacturers are coming up with tubes of new colors and the artists are all going out an buying it like we as beadmakers are doing with the new glasses - so there is no comparison.

Maybe high costs in the future will prohibit hobbiests from making beads - that's a bad thing because many hobbiests have contributed ideas and techniques.

You just have to love capitalism and all that comes with it, eh?

I can see it now, once prices have become totally ridicuous, Walmart will start selling glass rods made in Taiwan or Zimbabwey.

[Hels]

Linda, good point. I think that won't happen, because like any other market, the more profit made in a product, the more competitors will see an advantage to entering the field.

If the greed level gets high enough, the large corporations will get in the act... corning may go right back to producing colored glass for example. With their equipment, R&A abilities, deep pockets (I own GLW stock, I can tell you, this company does it right... very very low corporate debt levels), and typically a very high cash level... Corning can kick anyone's butt for prices that are absurdly low. It's a matter of scale and demand. And once in, like Walmart, they can distroy all mom & pops to corner the market. No need for imports, which would require an even bigger scale to profitably enter the fray.

Soooo... it doesn't make sense for the mom's and pop's to attract that level of attention by producing the level of profits you worry about. Greed is self-destructive.

As it is, I'm a newbie, and I don't know if I want to obsess with glass forever. However, even with all my enthusiasm, I won't buy glass unless it's at a DEEP discount. I have never paid more than $45 a lb for the most coveted silver colors, including Momka murrini, and more like $19 a lb at GA's sale for $58 glass. I would imagine that most people do the same thing... refuse to buy any glass unless they are in dire need, or see an irresistable sale. Companies that don't have sales don't get as much business.

The market has a way of regulating itself... just as with products. If you produce a very superior product, you can charge a BIT more. If you produce an ordinary product for more than your competition, you will go out of business. If you are bad at customer service, you will eventually go out of business or become poorer by the day. People in glass go out of business every day, that means the market is still competitive.

When the pricing becomes uncompetitive, aka too profitable, you will see companies ENTERING the market in droves, not leaving it. As business is cyclical, that means that eventually, a good chunk of those selling glass, old and new, will no longer be in business once saturation is hit again.

If in fact hobbiests are prevented from entering the market due to pricing... then the businesses producing glass will begin failing... the prices will DROP to reduce inventory, and the hobbyists will be back buying again.

I think it is self-regulating. Again, greed, which is what you are worried about, breeds competition, which in turn, breeds loss of income.

[swamper]

Helen,

Thanks for your thoughtful post - I hope you are right.

[pam]

Hi Linda, I think what you haven't gotten from some of these posts, though it has already been discussed, is that the cost to create a new color, especially some of the reactive colors, are astronomical. I don't believe that the glass companies producing these colors are making out-of-line profits from the sale of their glass. We, the beadmakers, are asking and begging for these colors, and companies that have the ability are producing them, but extraordinary glass sometimes costs extraordinary money.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that these reactive glasses are used so you don't have to learn technique. I've been learning technique for many, many years now and I love those glasses, whoever makes them. It gives me excitement to work with some of these reactive glasses to see all they will do. People make fantastic beads without the reactive colors, however people make fantastic beads with the reactive colors. People make horrible, ugly beads, whether using the reactive colors or not. Just because you use a certain glass doesn't make up for the lack of technique. In fact, you need to learn a whole set of new techniques to work with many of these glasses and the learning curve is sometimes long.

Would I love to see some of these glasses at $10 a pound, of course, but no one in their right mind would attempt to produce these glasses and sell it for that price. Perhaps some day if they can get their batching procedures honed the prices will drop, but like making a bead, the price is based, many times, on the amount of work that has been put into creating the bead, the number of attempts made that failed, the amount of time involved in getting it all to work together and finally, somewhat, on the cost of the materials involved.

[nagibeads]

Linda-
what Helen said :-D the market is self regulating....
this is just me, personally, but I bought alot of new colors last year(lots of Vetro odds!). So many, that this year I kinda don't want to buy much more--unbelievable for a glass junkie like me--I never thought I would hit a limit, but now I don't have the 'want' to buy unless it is:
1. an amazing deal
2. such an unusual color that there are none like it at all
3. rare or out of stock color
4. a new manufacturer(like TAG or Striking Color) that I haven't tried before

I haven't played with so many of the new colors--just tested them when I received them, so now I am going through and playing. Perfect timing too--the economy is not doing well--so now I can sit on my stash and play and not think about buying glass......too much;)

and what Pam said about silver glass... :-)

[swamper]

Hi Linda, I think what you haven't gotten from some of these posts, though it has already been discussed, is that the cost to create a new color, especially some of the reactive colors, are astronomical. I don't believe that the glass companies producing these colors are making out-of-line profits from the sale of their glass. We, the beadmakers, are asking and begging for these colors, and companies that have the ability are producing them, but extraordinary glass sometimes costs extraordinary money.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that these reactive glasses are used so you don't have to learn technique. I've been learning technique for many, many years now and I love those glasses, whoever makes them. It gives me excitement to work with some of these reactive glasses to see all they will do. People make fantastic beads without the reactive colors, however people make fantastic beads with the reactive colors. People make horrible, ugly beads, whether using the reactive colors or not. Just because you use a certain glass doesn't make up for the lack of technique. In fact, you need to learn a whole set of new techniques to work with many of these glasses and the learning curve is sometimes long.

Would I love to see some of these glasses at $10 a pound, of course, but no one in their right mind would attempt to produce these glasses and sell it for that price. Perhaps some day if they can get their batching procedures honed the prices will drop, but like making a bead, the price is based, many times, on the amount of work that has been put into creating the bead, the number of attempts made that failed, the amount of time involved in getting it all to work together and finally, somewhat, on the cost of the materials involved.




I don't debate that the cost of the new silver glasses is justified - what worries me is that if the market sees that we will tolerate such prices for some glass that the price of common colors will rise too, because they have seen that the market will tolerate it - it all started with handpulled colors being higher than the factory pulled - we all learned to be dependent on the hand pulled colors and paid the price - somehow, I still think that not making myself clear that I am talking about supply and demand and what the market will bear.

[Hels]

The thing is, the market won't tolerate it. When prices are too high... what do you do yourself? You likely do the same thing I do... don't buy.

And... people are complaining on this thread about glass costs... what's happening in the real glass market? People aren't buying... so there are huge sales... which makes people buy...

If the sales aren't deep enough, or people don't perceive value... their behavior changes (don't buy) and companies fail on the manufacturing and retail levels. Wasn't that what started this thread? And what is going on right now?

Apparently, the market perceives of prices right now as too high. When the retailers get hit, they don't reorder from the manufacturers who get hit... and they drop prices because they have bills to pay, or they go under.

The market does regulate itself, or a big player steps in and does the regulating for them by driving all greedy small businesses under. Business everywhere is tough, and the economy is not helping. But a flicker of hope... the stock market may be rounding it's curve... which generally predicts the economy 6 months out.

[squid]

I love Bullseye glass. I love that it's consistent. I love that it's made here in the US. I love that it's a bit stiffer --- Makes it perfect for blowing! I love their quality control and the fact that they, as a company, are so organized. Unfortunately, I just can't embrace their opaque colors. There's a "milky" look to many of them, or a lack of color saturation. The transparents are fabulous! I *love* the folks at Bullseye.



Tink, have you tried the new Opaque colors that BE has put out? They are aware that we want truly opaque colors and are starting to answer our call. There have been 6 opaque colors in the last 4 or 5 months - and they are YUMMY!

[x_phoenician]

I think maybe this has more to do with frustration at not being able to afford the glass you'd like? And I can understand that.

I LOVE silvered glass but haven't bought any in so long, I can't remember when it was. I savor the rods I have left and use them sparingly. I'm not joking, I was still using the first 1/4 pound of Kronos I bought way back from DH right before everyone "discovered it". I shared a rod with Julz, JC and Jude when I was invited for a play date back in ... was it 2006? They tried it out and then went and got the laptop to check out the website to see if any was available.
I made it last that long.

So if "mom and pop" shops can make their dream come true by making money on specialty glasses and owning their own business, that's great.
If I want some of that glass bad enough then I'll find a way to get it, even if it means sacrficing somewhere else (or selling a kidney). ;)

So, I think I understand where you're coming from Linda. Glad you asked about it too because I always wondered what exactly was involved in those who sell glass. Importing sounds like a big pain in the hiney. And spending lots of money on experimental glass recipes that may or may not work.

[swamper]

I think maybe this has more to do with frustration at not being able to afford the glass you'd like? And I can understand that.

Not exactly - I have a full time job. Beadmaking is not my total income although I do pretty well at it. As I said, my concern is the same as for the rising costs of everything else from bread to property taxes - a little increase here and a little increase there and before you know it - boom, you really can't afford it an more.

I LOVE silvered glass but haven't bought any in so long, I can't remember when it was. I savor the rods I have left and use them sparingly. I'm not joking, I was still using the first 1/4 pound of Kronos I bought way back from DH right before everyone "discovered it". I shared a rod with Julz, JC and Jude when I was invited for a play date back in ... was it 2006? They tried it out and then went and got the laptop to check out the website to see if any was available.
I made it last that long.

Yeah I still have some of that Kronos too. :)

[Bill Thornton]

Well Linda
I know a little about this, seeing how I am the guy discounting glass that made many of my peers upset.
Several other sellers have stated there are many hidden cost in this business as they stated.
So to let all know that I had a sale because I had more than a ton (2,000 Pounds of glass in bundles uncut that were paid for sitting here, and most of my Vetrofond bins were full besides.
Unlike most of my competitors I usually don't have any shipping cost.
I live in the same town as my distributor. A strategic location was one of the reasons I started this business. It just made sense.
I am now feeling the pain of other buyers because I have have to buy more glass from new suppliers because My main supplier is out of stock on a ton of colors that he will not sell to me. Very poor planning!

Tax time is also getting close and I just jumped back into the business full time again.
I decided to pump up business a little and get more exposure to my business.
Did I make a reasonable profit on the Vetrofond I sold?
Not really.
But I sold many other items and received many new customers.
It was worth it to me and to the customers that got a great deal.
As far as the oddlots that is different.
If you can remember that demand just goes through the roof when a color like V931 River Rock comes out.
There is only so much made, be it buy accident or not. Many people did and would and people are greedy simple fact. I know that about 100 Lampworkers control 90 percent of the hidden glass that you all want. Supply and demand drive the market.
If you don't buy the Oddlots the price will go down simple fact.
Look @ Mike's 40 % off sale.Less demand ...... less price, they go hand in hand.
Many of the retailers of the same glass are holding a bunch of glass that we thought we could sell at a reasonable markup.
We, believing that we may not get another chance to buy those oddlots try to stock up. Looks like we got burned on this one!
Also factor in there are many new resellers that have jumped into the market that dilutes the pool of prospective buyers down considerably .
I know I am not getting rich selling glass and supplies.
This is a story for you!
I work at least 16 hours a day maybe 6 days a week x 2 people(Bill & Donelle)= about $4.00 an hour if I am lucky. Yes I am making a killing.
If you think prices are bad now HOLD ON TO YOUR BUNDLES because I know it is going up,up, up!
Buy now and save money on the simple colors. I try to keep cost down . I don't overcharge on shipping and always refund the difference unlike others.
I don't charge for boxes,bubble, peanuts and shrink wrap. You cane almost buy a small car for what I spend a year.
I think that when you get down to it we all are feeling the inflationary pressures due to our economy .
I expect that there will be some people get out of the business because of it.
I jut hope it isn't me because I like working for $4.00 an hour!
Bill T.

[PaulaD]

Wow Bill You are making more than me!! I think I am netting 2 cents an hour. And I am up until 3 a.m. every night packing. I sure wish I had a wife to help! Weekends are spent either cutting glass or working on the website. Btw, I don't charge for peanuts or bubble wrap either and also do return extra shipping money because that is what I would want for myself!
I don't know of anybody getting rich in the glass business and I know a lot of people in it!
Well gotta run. More boxes to pack!

Paula

[NLC Beads]

Maybe I'm silly, but I would expect the cost of packaging materials to be included somewhere -so if it's not in the shipping, it's somewhere in the cost of the goods purchased...

[Hels]

I think that the current prices are more than fair. Sellers costs are going up just like our living costs are going up, and that drives prices up. Yet there are sales, which tells you it's hard times right now.

Linda, I see your point too, and I feel the pain of the costs big time, because I don't sell anything, I just spend money on glass stuff.

I'm very grateful for the suppliers sales. I agree with Bill, I think prices are going to go up too, as all costs continue to rise, which is why, as crippling as it is to be a newbie, I'm buying glass like crazy lately.

As Tink mentioned before, if you sell quality product you can buy a $60 lb of glass, and make $600, so $60 isn't very expensive in the scheme of things. But if I buy $60 worth of glass, and come out with 5 very amateurish pieces worth giving away... I am not able to keep that up for long, and I simply can't afford much glass.

It's very astute to notice that hobbyists are the cheapest, because we have the most to lose, literally. Some think that we can 'afford' it because we're new, and thus deserve to pay more because we are paying for our 'education', we can't, because it often means we can't play at all.

How many hobbyists would even get interested in glass if they were told up front, the MINIMUM to play for your first month will be $3000? And by the end of your 2nd month it's up to $5000? In parts of the US, that's enough for a downpayment on a house. And on top of that, you have monthly costs for as long as you are interested? Of course we have to be cheap.

Grant you, most hobbyists don't start out going after all their supplies their first month, but the costs don't change, there are things you need, and whether you get them in week 1 or week 30, you still have to have em.

I think we hobbyists drive the supply businesses through the hard times when things aren't selling, because we generally only buy the sales... we simply can't afford full price when we are only learning and not profiting to learn, and have already spent and spent and spent (ventilation system, table, fans, torch, hoses, regulators, kiln, propane, oxygen, tools, glasses, glass, books, videos, classes, etc etc)

Suppliers in this business can't afford to be greedy either, because there's always another supplier who NEEDS the money NOW... and to complete my point, I don't think any are. I think the glass suppliers we have, at least every single one I've dealt with so far, are among the most hardest working, giving people amongst all types of suppliers in general.... and just like their customers, deserve to be able to eat, and make a living at what they do. We are just all in a tough boat atm:).

[PaulaD]

That's a nice post Helen! I did the same thing as a hobbyist!
NLC I don't have anything added in for the shipping supplies in either the costs of items or at the shipping end. I probably am going to have to soon though.
Btw, it's very expensive getting items shipped to me. Some vendors don't really care what they charge to ship because they know we need product. I paid $4.36 a lb to get a certain color here a few months ago so that I would have it when it was released to every one else.
Paula

[Lisi]

I have to laugh at this! Linda, I agree with you! :D

I have ONE stick of Gaia, and very little handpulled colors, no ASK, no CiM, no silver glass, no odd Vetro... My palette is the $7-$8 a pound stuff. I refuse to pay the cost of the "fancy" glass because #1 I can't afford it anyway, and I go through glass (I make a LOT of little beads!) like crazy. I'll buy 15lbs or so, and it's gone in about a month at the rate I work.

[Tink]

Squidly, I haven't gotten any new BE in ages. I think it's been... Hmmm... Oh! When I was actually AT the Bullseye factory in 2006. LOL! I think. I do love how consistent BE colors are from one batch to the next. I love everything about BE except for the opaque palette. I guess I need to look into that, eh? Thanks for the heads up!

I just won a $100 Frantz gift certificate. As tempting as it was to run willy nilly to their website and use it to buy things I would NEVER buy otherwise, I am being very cautious (read: cheap) and will probably use it to stock up on stuff that I would need to get anyway. Well, that or the new colors that will be in soon. LOL!

[bgurden]

speaking of molds. there is a definite learning curve to using molds correctly. i respect the artists who can use the molds well!

[DesertDreamer]

There's another aspect to this that makes me kind of chuckle. I started out with soft glass in 1997, but started experimenting with boro in 2000. Talk about sticker shock!!!!! While precious few Moretti colors were anything at or over $20/lb, most of the boro colors I liked were $35-50! I learned to make clear-core boro beads just to save some $$. This all just gives me a little bit of a 'now you know what it's like' feeling. ;)

[raindance]

Bingo! I often like the Odd Lots because they work really well with silver and enamels, my two main bead ingredients! Also, the colors are fantastic!

If I spend $30 for a 1/4# of glass (about 5-6 rods) and I make $30 on ONE focal made from the glass - the glass is then paid for and I still have enough glass left to make about 12 focals - let's say avg price $25.00 ea... I have the potential to make $300 for $30.

And that's the main reason why I don't make sets. Sets use a lot of glass and the profit margin is crap for me. I do much better with one focal.

Exactly! Well-said, Amber! If a certain type of glass works for the beads you're wanting to make, it will actually increase your sales or the value of your beads. It's actually worth the higher cost in the long run. Oh...and it's sooo true what you said about making sets!!!


But here's my worry. If we as a group gobble up every thing that is new and exciting no matter the cost, sooner or later the prices will increase "just because they can". The costs will increase to whatever the market will bear and we as a group are showing that we are eager enough to pay what ever is asked.

That is my concern - rising costs just because the market wll tolerate it.

You just have to love capitalism and all that comes with it, eh?


I think that all of these new odd lots and silver glasses are a surge in response to what we lamp workers want. We're hungry for new colors. Odd colors used to kind of trickle in. They were mistakes, no matter how pretty they were. These new colors are being purposely formulated for us because we want them and have shown we will pay well for them. If there were no market and the demand was low, what would be the impetus for creating new kinds and colors of glass? As with any new product, no matter what it may be, if you want to be the first to have it then you're going to pay more. If you bide your time, after the initial surge in sales, the price always comes down to a more reasonable level. But where odd lot glasses are concerned, unfortunately, there's no guarantee the ones you want will be there when that happens.

[lunamoonshadow]

"Hobbies" are NOT CHEAP.
Knitting/fiber works--some yarns are now $10 or more a skein. (freaked me right out!)
Painting--Good quality paints & canvasses & even those little boxes people paint on--again, not cheap (my mother does the sale thing for her paints for doing those silly floral paint things :roll:)
Wood & metal for sculpture--have you priced steel or lumber lately? Check out prices @ your local hardware store & ask them what their WEEKLY shipments look like & how often they're having to change tags because of the changes in inflation & what it's costing them to get their shipments & what cost of goods is! Then talk to the guys buying the stuff off the shelves--they're freaking out DAILY & they need the stuff for "real jobs" like construction & auto repair, etc!
(Plumbing supplies are going up too--because of the petroleum products in the plastics...ditto on the lightbulbs & anything *else* in glass--it's not just "our" glass! Little independent hardware stores are having to change their tagging on nearly a weekly basis right now...it's either that or lose money on every item they order--and who can afford that & stay in business?)

~luna
eating ramen noodles & making choices about what I can afford, when I can afford it & how to pay for it :D

[smutboy420]

Silver prices are going through the roof. I'm surprised there hasn't been a price increase in some of the silver glasses because of it. I suspect it's coming


Not only is silver going threw the roof right now. Real [hysical silver is costing a few dollars per oz over The daily spot price that everyone uses to go by for the price of silver. So the spot price is no longer having any thing to do with the selling price of real silver sence there is a shortage of silver and noone can get it. The price one sees for "spot" price now only applies to hypathetical silver contracts not real silver that you can hold or touch.
So regarless of what the spot price is. if anyone need real silver they have buy it on the open market. were the fake spot price is meaningless.
Right now today the spot price is $17.74 for traded silver contracts on the comex extange. But no one that has raw silver is letting it go for less the $20-22 per oz. right now. last week when spot price droped down to the low $16 range but there was a super shortage going on every one was selling at $25 or more per oz. Then the shortage eased a bit becase of some massive sell offs as paniced investers got the jitters and jumped ship and got off.
Now them few 1,000 ox have been gobbled up mostly aready and the shortages are comeing right back. no on in the industry sees a let up soon either sence there are no new sources of silver.
So any thing that involves using silver is going to get more and more expesive. Just because of supply and demand. as supplys get less and demand increases so wont the cost as a battel of how needs or wants it more will be the winner in the struggle. Even the us mint has been out of silver going on the 3 week now. because no one is selling 1,000 oz bars and the havn't figured out how to mint coins out of paper siver.

So I would expect silver based glass to be real expensive if they can even still keep getting silver in the comming weeks months or years. As other industrial users will be willing to pay much much higher prices then they are now willing to pay. Just to be able to get raw matrial for there needs. When it comes down to that last bar of silver and 2 users want or need it. its going to be the one thats willing to pay the most thats going to get it.
there are only about 7 trillion oz left on earth. And everytime an oz get used in something there goes one once down. Every time a solder manifatuer melts a few 1,000oz bars there is a few more 1,000 onces out of the remining 7 trillion.

[NLC Beads]

NLC I don't have anything added in for the shipping supplies in either the costs of items or at the shipping end. I probably am going to have to soon though.
Btw, it's very expensive getting items shipped to me. Some vendors don't really care what they charge to ship because they know we need product. I paid $4.36 a lb to get a certain color here a few months ago so that I would have it when it was released to every one else.
Paula

I didn't mean it as an insult to anyone -it's just poor business practice to not at least cover your own expenses. It may not be broken down into: Glass cost $X/#, + $X for shipping, plus $X for profit... But if you don't analyze it, it is coming out of your profit, so whether you intended it to be part of the glass cost or not, it is if you're not charging for it.

I've ordered from vendors stating their mind in this thread, and others that haven't piped up. I've been fortunate to have had only good transactions with every glass vendor I've worked with. It's a huge testimony to all of you, and I do appreciate you. :love:

[PaulaD]

Thanks NLC. I didn't take it as an insult. This is a good thread for vendors to read. I have analyzed what it costs for shipping supplies and decided to let it go for now. If I raise my price of glass people will not buy it and it I add a handling fee to cover expenses maybe fewer people will buy so for now I am just making that much less profit.
I have this formula for life...When aggravation outweighs fun (or profit) then I quit. That's why I closed my teaching studio.
Paula

[NLC Beads]

Good rule! :)

[Nicker]

My aggrivation comes from odd lots prices being raised, as far as I know Double Helix is the only seller who discounts odds? It bothers me that I buy odd lots (experimental, one of a kind, not tested colors) and am charged more for them. They often are not consistent colors, boil and crack. Usually something untested and questionable is less not more.

[DesertDreamer]

"Hobbies" are NOT CHEAP.
Knitting/fiber works--some yarns are now $10 or more a skein. (freaked me right out!)
Painting--Good quality paints & canvasses & even those little boxes people paint on--again, not cheap (my mother does the sale thing for her paints for doing those silly floral paint things :roll:)
Wood & metal for sculpture--have you priced steel or lumber lately? Check out prices @ your local hardware store & ask them what their WEEKLY shipments look like & how often they're having to change tags because of the changes in inflation & what it's costing them to get their shipments & what cost of goods is! Then talk to the guys buying the stuff off the shelves--they're freaking out DAILY & they need the stuff for "real jobs" like construction & auto repair, etc!
(Plumbing supplies are going up too--because of the petroleum products in the plastics...ditto on the lightbulbs & anything *else* in glass--it's not just "our" glass! Little independent hardware stores are having to change their tagging on nearly a weekly basis right now...it's either that or lose money on every item they order--and who can afford that & stay in business?)



Seriously! I picked a DANDY time to get into PMC and back into regular silver work. Sheesh!

[*StarleensStudio*]

I would like to start out by saying that whenever I challenge another’s opinion, I am humble. I take the approach of "I think I am right, but maybe I am wrong". There is the disclaimer. Now keep that in mind as you read :poke:

I hate the expense, and I have thought the same thing as I stand by and watch suppliers just DUMP their stock and hurt the entire glass market. Believe me I sit back every year after spending around 10,000.00 dollars on glass every 365 days... No joke.

Dennis, just interjecting some thoughts here regarding glass that is an artisan by product or hand batched glass created by glassblowers such as specialty colors, traditional handmade pattern cane, veiled glass, hand batched silver glass, Trautmans amazing blizzards and Elvis reds that we just love.... and would dearly miss if they disappeared off the market. I say this with all the love in my heart. Is it truly wise for an artisan to acquire all the skills necessary to create veiled cane or hand mix batch in order to SAVE MONEY. OR hand build 5 rings of cored color using Italian glass to replicate the effects of Vetrofond odds? It takes time and costs us in fuel to carry out such tasks. Time money and energy that is best spent behind the torch creating art to keep cash flow coming in. A divided vision always fails...

Does everyone understand how much their furnaces cost them in fuel or electricity to run.... Try a whopping 900-1500.00 every 30 days. Go visit a few local glass blowers that only run ONE small furnace and perhaps two small sized crucible kilns and a color bar/pipe warmer. That is not including labor, the batch, and their skills acquired over time. Skills that no one else can do, or probably would never even want to do. Sea freight for German /Italian/ Japanese glass is dear, then it is broken down by staff who all need a pay check. How many hours were spent by boro mixers to expand our color pallet or strive to help us out by creating the perfect white boro rod. How about the air fair it costs during the negotiation of expanding our soft glass color selection/availability overseas. yada yada blah blah blah (I will spare you the the rest of the speech).

Is is possible that we do the same when marking up the cost of our own work to earn a living? Hmmm. How many rods of 50.00 per pound boro does it take to create one nice focal that might fetch us 30.00 - 80.00 each? My kiln only cost 5 bucks a day to anneal 10-45 nice sized focals. Raw material cost to fill the kiln averages around 20 - 65.00 tops when using precious metals. Our customers sort of do not understand why a bead that takes us an hour to make costs even 25.00 let alone 150.00 for a top grade premium (Bless their darling hearts).

Everything has gone up in price. Eggs, Gasoline, our stinking fuel/electric bill. Everything we buy has increased in price, but as far as the argument of the painter buying premium materials instead of furthering the development of his artistic skills... well that all depends upon your budget and ability to learn how to batch Trautmans teal blizzard or slave over recreating Terra :grin: :poke: Go give it a try… (insert giggle).

Seriously, just find the balance of selecting the glass that pleases you while being financially responsible. Grab these unheard of deals while they are there because they just might bankrupt other suppliers that are some of our absolute favorite companies. It is not just glass! Torch manufactures are just allowing distributorships with every mom and pop shop that opens up. The sales territory honor system just was done away with it seams. The market is flooded with product and the price undercutting begins, AND CUSTOMERS BEGIN TO SORT OF RESENT THE SUPPLIERS that have the nerve to charge a fair price for their materials. It confuses the consumers. So sad for everyone. I hope the recession does not continue to force stock dumping, as I truly fear the consequences.

Hope it was worth the read and does not ruffle too many feathers, and remember, maybe I am totally off base here?

It is only my opinion. ~ Starleen

[PaulaD]

Starleen that was a very thoughtful post and nice to hear coming from a consumer and not a dealer. I too have really been wondering about why some dealers are dumping product. As a new dealer and especially an East Coast dealer I am clueless. But isn't that how the robber barons got rid of all of their competition at the turn of the century?
\\:D/
Paula

[Reenie]

Wow Bill You are making more than me!! I think I am netting 2 cents an hour. And I am up until 3 a.m. every night packing. I sure wish I had a wife to help! Weekends are spent either cutting glass or working on the website. Btw, I don't charge for peanuts or bubble wrap either and also do return extra shipping money because that is what I would want for myself!
I don't know of anybody getting rich in the glass business and I know a lot of people in it!
Well gotta run. More boxes to pack!

Paula
Both of you are too funny. $4.00 an hour might be putting it a bit high don't you think?
Yea I have to agree. It's just me here packing, shipping, ordering, cleaning and at least I have two teens that Do help with the cutting because bundles of rods are not light.
I work 7 days a week and probably 16-18 hour days. If I'm not packing I'm cutting, or cleaning, or ordering more, or updating the website. I get yelled at for spending too much time (working) yet for new businesses or even anyone who owns their own....You have to work like this to get it moving along. Now I really need an accountant because I don't think I've balanced my checkbook in over 3 months. I've got a box of receipts that just keeps getting higher but no time to do paperwork. Anyone want the job? I'm totally serious here!
Now if I was a huge distributor like Frantz or some of the other one's. I could hire people (Sigh) Wouldn't that be great and they could do the work while I do the important stuff. But the good thing is...I don't have the overhead like Frantz and others do. I don't have to do payroll or benefits or whatever he does for his employees.
I don't have to pay for rent or utilities so that's a huge plus! All that factors in as does shipping and materials and such.
But for someone like me who has a mind that goes a mile a minute...this is the perfect place for me to be. My mind can never go to places that it shouldn't (panic attacks) because I'm constantly keeping it busy. That's why I had to quit my day job so....even if I made a penny a day....The benefits of keeping my sanity and being able to do what I love...is soooo worth it!

PS...this is what is waiting for me now....Been sitting almost a week ;-)
114793

[PaulaD]

Yeah and I bet you never get to light your torch anymore!
Guess how I know!

Paula

[Howaco]

Torch? What torch? :lol:

[Just Nancy]

It has to be frustrating to suppliers when another supplier has a sale. (Or floods the market, etc.) Fact of the matter each self employed person has over head and has to watch their bottom line. Maybe they get discounts if they buy in quantity. So, how to generate the cash for a big order to supply more glass? Perhaps a sale of existing glass. (One of many scenerios.) It is pretty logical that each vendor will run sales and promotions as they choose. Any self employed person knows the job has to be done regardless of pay, or they close. It isn't like a pay is guaranteed. If they have too much wrapped up in inventory, a sale will help the bottom line. It may frustate the lampworker that they can't as easily change their sales, but like many self employment situations, all we can do is watch our inputs. I think sales are a good thing for us.

I think the vendors are also artists. They recognize not all glass is the same. The boutique colors are like limited edition collectables, small batch wines or hand dyed fiber. They are created with a lot of trial and error. Often one of a kind or a smaller quantity. With the small quantity supply and demand kicks in, be it odd lots, a limited edition color, something discontinued, or the first in the country, people chomp at the bit to buy it. These colors are at least briefly recognized as high demand or different, and for various reasons command a higher price. Of course the vendors charge what the market dictates.

Full time beadmakers buy more glass, often at a discount because of volume. Sally new lampworker buys her glass a rod at a time at a local stained glass store. There are price points and buying options for all and I think our vendors do a good job trying to keep tempermental artists supplied.

[Reenie]

Yeah and I bet you never get to light your torch anymore!
Guess how I know!

Paula

Torch? What torch? :lol:

I have lit the torch three times in the past few months. All to make test beads!!
But I did stay up until 5am this morning so I could try and fuse something lol.
I have a huge show on the weekend of the 19th &20th. Californians will know it as the "California Poppy Festival" I'm pretty excited but the last 2 shows were no sales. Maybe 2 things sold in both. The economy really sux and it hurt all the arts and craft vendors at both. Doesn't help when they put your booth next to another jewelry person who buys her stuff at Walmart & Michaels and sells them for $5-$10 a piece. I've put out almost $1,000 for three shows so far. Had to credit card them all.
Praying this show is a bit better for me.

And Nancy as far as sales, you are right. When you're not making your quota and bills need to be paid, you have to offer ANYTHING in order to generate some income. I'm glad I sold off my ASK Glass...not for profit but that's the only way I can afford to buy the new Moretti Colors coming in.
And income tax returns help...my whole tax refund went to Germany for Lauscha. Thank God I only buy from them once or twice a year:-)
But with the dollar as low as it is..I paid nearly double what the euro is and boy did that hurt! That isn't even customs and bonds and shipping.

But be prepared for a big sale starting Wednesday. Everyone else has been having these same sales for over a month now and it's time to jump in as well and see if we make room for the Moretti and God knows what else Mikey brought back from Italy in his huge suitcase:-)
Irene

[Megan]

I have to say that I totally hate the price of some glass but I don't begrudge them from charging what they have to make due.. I hate the price because I want it and can't have it because #1 I can't afford it and #2 I am too cheap to spend $100 a pound on glass or even $50 for that matter..

I guess the way I see it is most glass sellers probably make most of their $$ in the odd lots and charge more for the odd stuff to offset the lower profit margin on the regular glass. If you can live without purchasing every oddlot or silver color that comes out, $11 to $15 a pound I can handle..

I do have a question though for the smaller glass sellers, please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder why would you keep putting yourself through the hassle and work of selling the glass if your only making a couple bucks per hour?

[PaulaD]

Torch? What torch? :lol:



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: O:)

[NLC Beads]

I do have a question though for the smaller glass sellers, please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder why would you keep putting yourself through the hassle and work of selling the glass if your only making a couple bucks per hour?

I "only" sell beads, not glass, but I'm guessing it's the same reason beadmakers keep going while they complain about how hard times are and how few buyers there are - love of the glass.

[PaulaD]

I do have a question though for the smaller glass sellers, please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder why would you keep putting yourself through the hassle and work of selling the glass if your only making a couple bucks per hour?

My business started to help pay the rent when I had a teaching studio. Once I started buying in quantity I more or less had to go online to sell the rest of the glass. For me I am just trying to build up a little retirement business to stay busy. I reinvest any profit into more glass. Except for last month when it helped pay my oil bill. And usually when I have a sale it's because there's thousands of dollars on my credit card for glass that I just bought and the bill came...Or it's a long weekend and I am off of the Day job with nothing to do!

Paula

[Howaco]

I do have a question though for the smaller glass sellers, please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder why would you keep putting yourself through the hassle and work of selling the glass if your only making a couple bucks per hour?

I do it for two very distinct reasons. One is, I LOVE glass and this was a natural progression for me from making beads. If it wouldn't be painful, I would roll around in it! :lol:

The 2nd is very personal to me. My daughter has had a really, really hard last 4 years emotionally. When she was 16 she tried to commit suicide. When she was released after being in for several weeks, she was still not stable enough to be left alone and all the doctors agreed that she needed to be monitored 24/7. Well, there is no daycare for 16 year olds. So I talked with lots people and decided that it was time to do something that I had thought about doing for a long time already. Become self employed. That first summer home with my daughter and doing the start up was the best summer I have ever had in my life.

It has taken her a long time, but over the last several months life has turned the direction it should for her and me being available to her whenever I needed to be has been a godsend. I wouldn't trade what I am doing for anything in the world.

[PaulaD]

Yeah you have to really LOVE glass!!

Glad your daughter is doing better JameyLynn...

Paula

[Reenie]

I do have a question though for the smaller glass sellers, please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder why would you keep putting yourself through the hassle and work of selling the glass if your only making a couple bucks per hour?

Megan,
I think I mentioned this but I'll tell you my story. I worked retail for many, many years. In my position I last held there was just too much stress. Combine that with Panic Disorder and Agoraphobia and well it wasn't a good mix. I've had PD for about 20 years now but it went through stages. I ended up having a nervous breakdown in 2006 and I didn't even leave my home for 3 months. (This was a few months after I first started lampworking) Thank God for lampworking because it did save my life. I started researching and I thought maybe this is something that I could do since I was pretty much housebound anyways. I did make it back to work and researched what I could at the same time. I wrote to Frantz, Moretti N More, Jodel Glass, Arrow Springs and LBS supply and told them I was thinking of selling glass and I was hoping for their blessing. I promised no undercutting and to be comparable in price but that this is something I think I needed to do.
I think almost everyone wrote back and said, "Go for it!" A few even gave me tips which I was really just blown away. I knew it was the right thing because pieces of the puzzle were just falling into place.
I started up in April of last year and quit my day job in August because it was too much to do both. I still struggle with panic disorder but my mind is constantly on packing, cleaning, selling, ordering...etc that I don't have time to let my mind go into the dark places.
So this is a good thing. I still don't drive out of town but I'm working on it.
Thank God the post office is only 4 miles away.
But that's why I started. No profits yet. I am like everyone else, if there's any profit it goes to building up my supply or trying to add to the variety of things I sell on the site and that's okay...I do hope that this business does turn a profit in a year or so which would be normal but I'm just getting started so I expected the 7 days a week and I expected a loss. But the best thing is I'm home. I'm home when my kids are home. I'm home when they're sick....I'm just available to them more now and they all pitch in and help when needed. One day, I hope they will take it over from me if I'm not here anymore. Or at least my daughter since the boys already have their careers picked out and it doesn't have anything to do with glass.
So that's the story.
Hope everyone didn't mind me sharing.
It's also on the About me page on my website.
Irene

[Frogsongstudio]

This is exactly the reason I switched to BE. I got sick and tired of paying a whole lot for what were essentially mistakes and duplication was questionable. The final straw for me was all those corals that weren't coral at all. [Yes, I know lots of you loved them, and tell yourself (and call the colors) whatever you want, but they weren't coral.]

I have the same issue about the corals. I jumped on the coral bandwagon and bought several of the corals only to discover that none of them are coral.

In fact the one color that came closest to coral was the first pound of Red Roof Tile I bought and what do they name it? Red Roof Tile!......LOL

The second batch of Red Roof Tile I bought came looking more on the yellow side in rod form. I haven't tried using it yet but I'm guessing I'm going to be disappointed.

And what of all those corals I bought? It sits there gathering dust. I might use it if I ever want to make an orange bead. :roll:

[PaulaD]

The last time I saw a real good mediterranean coral was 5 or 6 years ago..Paula

[NLC Beads]

I never had a problem with all the corals - I like the range.... And I like the tones better than the orange pallette.

[jellibeens]

I am so hoarding the three 13" rods of 'real' coral I have right now. They've got to be more than five years old... I wish this color was available all the time! I got a 'terracotta' coral lately that was closer than most, but still not great.

I really appreciate all of the suppliers I've used - I'm always grateful when I find one that will just ship to me (Australia). Lots of stuff isn't available within Australia until *ages* after it first comes out (but then can stay in-stock for longer here with the smaller market demand... I got some Petrified Wood last week). I'm not quite so concerned with the price of glass - everything costs more over here anyway. I figure that if it works for me then I can make my $$ back whether it's $15/lb or $80/lb - although I'm less likely to try the $80/lb glass in the first place ;-)

[PaulaD]

Jelli, I happily ship to Australia. A big part of my business is overseas! My shopping cart makes things easy and automatically calculates for any country that I ask it to!

Megan, I also remembered another reason why I sell online...I am 90% deaf. I totally forget that I am deaf until I think about what other jobs I can do...Most require better hearing than I have! What??

Paula

[LAG]

I find it interesting that the silvered soft glass coming out on the market is so much more $ than the silvered boros that already exist. I love using them when I do soft glass but admit, I only purchase them when on sale. I just can't justify spending $100 a pound on soft glass when I can get the same colors and more from boro for a lot less.

I am wondering why silver in soft glass is any more expensive than the silver in boro?

[PaulaD]

Maybe because the are making smaller batches???

Paula

[Dennis Brady]

I find it interesting that the silvered soft glass coming out on the market is so much more $ than the silvered boros that already exist. I love using them when I do soft glass but admit, I only purchase them when on sale. I just can't justify spending $100 a pound on soft glass when I can get the same colors and more from boro for a lot less.

I am wondering why silver in soft glass is any more expensive than the silver in boro?

Everything is relative to production volumes. The dichroic boro (sheet or rod) is double the price of soft glass.

[LAG]

Production costs in the smaller batches could be the cost .... OR perhaps, some people are having it imported? I am not naming any specific distributor because I personally don't know (so please don't slam me here) but the thought has occurred to me.

And one has to commend the entrepeneur (sp)that jumps on these opportunities to make $.

but seems to me that the silver cost so much per ounce no matter how much you buy unless someone knows a place where they offer a discount in volume?? Silver is going up so one would suspect the costs of the boro colors will take a hit soon.