Propane tank in the heat

[CorriDawn]

I am moving my propane tank out of the garage and outside. my question is this. Is the heat going to effect anything? Do I need to have some sort of shade covering the tank? I am in Arizona where it gets up to 120. Also, will the sun degrade my hoses fast?

[Dale M.]

It is a good idea to shade tank... Other than that it has to get up to about 145° f. (If I remember what gas technician told me) before any heat will cause over pressure situation and cause tanks safety pressure relief valve to blow off excessive pressure. Believe internal tank pressure must be about 375PSI to cause this.... IF pressure relief valve releases you will have pure propane venting to atmosphere is area near tank till pressure is at a safe level again (in tank)... Don't think it would be good idea to have tank near any fresh air "intakes" for residence or studio as a precaution.

Sun may cause hose to degrade faster, but that may take years... Casual inspection will tell you if there is a problem with hose (dried out looking and cracking) .... When you think about it there are thousands of propane tanks sitting out in all kinds of weather (heat & cold) all over the world and most do not cause any problems.

Dale

[CorriDawn]

Thanks. I will try to find shade. Or maybe I should just try to find a place to live where it doesn't get as hot

[Dale M.]

Thanks. I will try to find shade. Or maybe I should just try to find a place to live where it doesn't get as hot

Small trellis with some plant growing up it would do...Hides it too...

Dale

[MikeAurelius]

Your tank can be placed in one of those rubbermaid outdoor storage containers - they are typically used for lawn furniture. Mine is fairly low to the ground, but can hold up to 4 20# cannisters.

As far as the rubber T grade hoses, they will start degrading almost immediately. Does this mean that they are unsafe? No. What you will see at first is a color change as the red color starts to fade. The hose will then start to become slightly stiff, then brittle and small cracks will start to form.

My local fire inspector pitched a hissy fit when he saw the rubber hose - according to code, all outdoor connections to fuel gas are to be via metal piping, and only inside can rubber be used.

Now, if you are doing the 'through the window/door' method of tank attachement, stay with the rubber hose. My personal opinion would be to change out the rubber hose every year.

[MikeAurelius]

Also - the high temperature in your area will hasten the process, I'd keep the hose in the shade as much as possible as well.

Your tanks will show a higher pressure when hot, this is normal. Up until about 2 PM, my 'tank box' is in direct sunlight, and the tank pressure is usually up around 120 to 125 PSI. In the early evening, once it has had a chance to cool down, the pressure drops to about 100 PSI.

You will see the same think happen with yours - it is normal - propane increases in pressure as it warms up and lowers in pressure when it cools.

[MistyCherie]

Your tank can be placed in one of those rubbermaid outdoor storage containers - they are typically used for lawn furniture. Mine is fairly low to the ground, but can hold up to 4 20# cannisters.

Hey Corri, I got one of these at Walmart I think for fairly cheap. Mine only holds 2 tanks. DHTB cut a hole in the backside so I could feed the hose with the quick connect in and out. I bring the hose inside(usually) when I am done torching, that way it's not exposed to the sun outside all the time.

=)

[CorriDawn]

well Misty, I can't get one at walmart because I don't go to that store, it makes me cry! :D

[Kalera]

Thanks. I will try to find shade. Or maybe I should just try to find a place to live where it doesn't get as hot


(Hint: OREGON doesn't get too hot... :biggrin: )

[Dale M.]

(Hint: OREGON doesn't get too hot... :biggrin: )

But does Oregon ever have any sun?

Dale

[mobility]

Also make sure that whatever container you keep your tanks in has vent holes at the bottom-- propane is heavier than air so it will collect in the bottom of a sealed container if you have a leak.

[krista michael]

If I have the tank outside the garage and don't want the hose to go through the wall then what do I use? I know, some sort of metal pipe, right? I know it sounds dumb but I can't wrap my mind around how it will hook up. Maybe I shouldn't have stayed up so late last night???? In my defense I WAS making beads! LOL

[CorriDawn]

I actually have mentioned Oregon to Jason. I don't think he will ever move though

[MikeAurelius]

You can still use a rubber hose, provided that you inspect it from time to time (say weekly). The point I was trying to make (and perhaps I made it poorly) was that for my commercial studio, I was required to use metal on all fuel gas plumbing up to the distribution point (where it breaks off to the individual torches).

For home use, especially if you disconnect the hose every time, this is considered a temporary installation, and rubber can be used. However, you have to be aware that rubber will break down with exposure to the elements, especially sunshine.

However, putting a pipe through the wall is not really that big of a deal. Takes a 1/2" drill, some caulk to fill in around the hole and pipe, and some fittings, plus shut off's on each side of the wall. Installing a pipe through the wall should not cost any more than about $50 and most of that expense is going to be the shut off valves.

[CorriDawn]

Hey Mike, how about you make a trip to AZ and install ventilation and get my propane tank outside for me

[MikeAurelius]

Be glad to!

My per diem charges are $25.00 per hour, including transit time, air fare both ways, food, lodging at a minimum 3 star hotel.

:badgrin: :razz: :---)

Plus supplies, of course!

[MistyCherie]

well Misty, I can't get one at walmart because I don't go to that store, it makes me cry! :D

Hehehhe. Well...never heard it making people cry? I try to avoid it like the plague if possible, I think I go there maybe 2-3 times a year and ONLY when I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere. I wish Target had more stuff! Home Depot might have some, you could check there? Oh, and mine holds 3 tanks (I realized I was wrong when I got home last night and torched for awhile.) So, I have my tank and two spares.

*squish*

-M

[krista michael]

Ok, so I put a metal pipe through the wall, I get that part. My son is standing here with me, he will be the one drilling and caulking (thank goodness!). On the inside of the studio side of the pipe what kind of fitting do I put there to connect my hose to? On the outside of the studio side what kind of fitting do I put to connect the tank to? I'm using a BBQ size tank and I plan on getting one of the little rubbermaid type cabinets that snugs up next to the side of the house. That way I can keep a spare around! I would like to be able to keep everything hooked up all the time, just to have to turn/flip a switch to use it and then turn it off when I'm done. I'd even like it if I could do that from inside. I assume we will need to drill through the back of the rubbermaid shed too. That will be no problem.

[BillBrach]

Krista,

You didn't mention what kind of torch you have. The piping will be different depending if you have a HH or a regular surface mix torch. Answer this and it will be easier to tell you what kind of piping.

And, I'd suggest a gas cutoff valve too, just inside the wall where the pipe comes through.

Bill

[Dale M.]

Ok, so I put a metal pipe through the wall, I get that part. My son is standing here with me, he will be the one drilling and caulking (thank goodness!). On the inside of the studio side of the pipe what kind of fitting do I put there to connect my hose to? On the outside of the studio side what kind of fitting do I put to connect the tank to? I'm using a BBQ size tank and I plan on getting one of the little rubbermaid type cabinets that snugs up next to the side of the house. That way I can keep a spare around! I would like to be able to keep everything hooked up all the time, just to have to turn/flip a switch to use it and then turn it off when I'm done. I'd even like it if I could do that from inside. I assume we will need to drill through the back of the rubbermaid shed too. That will be no problem.


Suggested reading if you have not already done so....

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020

And this thread ... specifically starting on or about date 4-16-05

http://www.isgb.org/forum/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=safety&Number=58334&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

And...

http://www.isgb.org/forum/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=safety&Number=61591&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Dale

[MikeAurelius]

If you have a HotHead torch -- DO NOT RUN THE FUEL LINE THROUGH THE WALL.

It is illegal to run more than 20 PSI of fuel gas through any wall structure.

That said, if you are using a dual gas torch (oxygen/propane), you will need to have two valves, one for each side of the wall (it seems like overkill, but it is code). On the inside connection after the valve, simply use a brass barbed connector for 1/4" rubber hose, and match the threaded side to whatever size pipe you are using.

On the outside, do exactly the same.

[Dale M.]

If you have a HotHead torch -- DO NOT RUN THE FUEL LINE THROUGH THE WALL.

It is illegal to run more than 20 PSI of fuel gas through any wall structure.

That said, if you are using a dual gas torch (oxygen/propane), you will need to have two valves, one for each side of the wall (it seems like overkill, but it is code). On the inside connection after the valve, simply use a brass barbed connector for 1/4" rubber hose, and match the threaded side to whatever size pipe you are using.

On the outside, do exactly the same.

Actually it is illegal to run NG through wall at more than 5psi... Propane limit is 20psi

If using a propane tank, the tank valve IS the "outside" shutoff valve. If using NG yes you need a second valve in plumbing outside wall at "entry". This is something gas company would install "before" meter.

Dale

[MikeAurelius]

If using a propane tank, the tank valve IS the "outside" shutoff valve.

Not necessarily. It depends on the distance between the wall where the penetration occurs and the tank itself. If it is more than 5 feet, a valve is required at the point of penetration.

On commercial installations, a valve at the point of penetration is required, regardless of the distance.

It is good practice, generally speaking, to place a valve at the point of penetration. This allows you to keep the tank a fair distance from the house (or stucture).

This is along the lines of putting flashback arrestors on surface mix torches - not totally required, but not a bad idea either.

Also, NG is permitted up to 10 PSI with a special permit, check with your local NG distributor.

[mobility]

point of penetration

If you guys keep saying this, I'm going to have to get a Mr. Smiley... uh... artwork! :D

I do not know what all the regs are, so I'm not even going to try to argue.

All I know is, I would have shut-off valves on either side of the wall, so that you can turn the gas off easily from either place. Just common sense. Better to have an extra shut-off valve outside, just in case the main valve on the tank fails. Most BBQ-style propane tanks have fairly crappy valves, anyway, so better safe than sorry.

If I were running propane to a surface mix torch through the wall, here's the set-up I would suggest. It is not necessarily the best, but as far as I know, it is up to code here in the backwater of Louisiana. I talked to my gas guy before he installed my natural gas line, in case I ever wanted to switch to propane, and this is what he told me.

Tank to pipe to shut-off valve right outside the wall secured to the wall to pipe through the wall to shut off valve right inside the wall secured to the wall to regulator to quick disconnects/ flashback arrestors to hose to torch. More pipes/ elbows, etc. if necessary.

I do not know for sure, since I am running natural gas that my gas guy installed, but it makes sense to me. Please feel free to rip it to shreds or correct it if it is incorrect.

[rosecottagebeads]

So, what is the best way to run a line in for a hot head?

Norma

[Dale M.]

So, what is the best way to run a line in for a hot head?

Norma

Not......... You can not legally plumb in fuel at the pressure hot head requires to operate (full tank pressure).

Best option is to get LONG hose from either industrial supplier like McMaster-Carr. Part number 7976A24

McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=3154&CtlgEdition=&sesnextrep=429445079364937&ScreenWidth=1024&McMMainWidth=817)

Or from MR. Heater, Stock number F273702

http://www.mrheater.com/seriesdetail.asp?id=152

Long hose may also be available in camping supply sections of Sears or WallyWorld or any local sporting goods store who carries camping products.

With this method you can keep tank OUTSIDE and run hose through door or window in temporary fashion only for time you actually will be using torch. When torch is off, hose should be disconnected and removed. There is nothing in NFPA codes to prevent you from doing this in a temporary manner. But then again there is nothing saying it is perfectly ok either... Its a gray area in the safety codes. Also put something in door or window (door stop) to keep door or window from accidentally slamming closed on hose and possibly damaging it...

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831

Dale

[MikeAurelius]

If you guys keep saying this, I'm going to have to get a Mr. Smiley... uh... artwork! :D

<snipped to be silly>

penetration
penetration
penetration

LOL!!!

[mobility]

penetration
penetration
penetration

LOL!!!


:p :p :p :-D

[Cyndi]

So, what is the best way to run a line in for a hot head?

Norma

I got a longer hose and ran mine thru the window. One thing that I found to be very important is to be sure to shut the tank off and bleed your hose each time you shut down the torch. If I was taking a break I'd have to go out and shut off the tank and then come in and relight the torch to bleed the hose. If I didn't do it the hose would leak. I never did find a hose that could hold the pressure from the tank with the torch off. That I suspect, is why all the gas suppliers recommended a regulator, the torch itself doesn't need one, but the hoses probably do. I've since upgraded torches- and have the hothead only as a back up.

[Dale M.]

I got a longer hose and ran mine thru the window. One thing that I found to be very important is to be sure to shut the tank off and bleed your hose each time you shut down the torch. If I was taking a break I'd have to go out and shut off the tank and then come in and relight the torch to bleed the hose. If I didn't do it the hose would leak. I never did find a hose that could hold the pressure from the tank with the torch off. That I suspect, is why all the gas suppliers recommended a regulator, the torch itself doesn't need one, but the hoses probably do. I've since upgraded torches- and have the hothead only as a back up.


It has nothing to do with a regulator.... HOTHEAD is designed to run at tank pressures (100-125psi) most appliances and lampwork torches are designed to work at low pressures (anywhere from 1/3 psi to about 15psi)...

Good quality hose wil be rated at 300-350psi and the crimps on the ends (brass ferrels) should be crimped at 750psi (or more).... A quality hose should not leak. A connection not quite tight enough will leak... A poor quality hose is just that, poor quality.... It may leak...

Dale

[Curly Irish Girl]

I have a small studio 10x16 that we added to our home. I keep my LP tank outside on a small deck - my DH built a little "outhouse" for the tank (complete with siding & shingles....the man is obsessed!). One side has the slide the tank in/out and I keep a sort of window shade of vinyl wallpaper over that area in the summer. Seems that I get the breathing flame problem when the sun hits the tank directly in hot temps.

[Dale M.]

Drag tank out of enclosure and turn garden sprinkler on it... It will cool it over time (several hours) and it will settle down... Maybe drape WET blanket over it and keep it wet with sprinkler. Evaporation will cool tank.

Dale

[debkauz]

However, putting a pipe through the wall is not really that big of a deal. Takes a 1/2" drill, some caulk to fill in around the hole and pipe, and some fittings, plus shut off's on each side of the wall. Installing a pipe through the wall should not cost any more than about $50 and most of that expense is going to be the shut off valves.



OK I'm just not getting it. NOt the first time...you put a pipe in the wall. Do you do one for propane and one for O2? Then you connect your outside hoses to the pipes and also connect hoses inside to the pipe from the inside? It's not to run the outside hoses through to the inside, right? :-?

[MikeAurelius]

Ummmmmm....

Ok, yeah. I see where your confusion might be.

Let's talk about the propane first. When propane is run through a wall penetration (I just love that word!), it must be encased in a solid metallic tube, not a rubber one.

Here's the outline of how the fire code wants to see the work done:

Propane tank - flows directly into regulator that is mounted in the screw fitting on the propane tank.

From the low pressure side of the regulator, mount a flexible metallic pipe (similiar to what is used for gas clothes dryers), and run this flex pipe to a shut off valve.

The shut off valve is mounted on black pipe, which runs through the wall.

We are now inside the building.

On the wall side of the black pipe, mount another shut off valve.

From the shut off valve, run any type of metallic piping, such as soft wall copper, to a "distribution point".

At the "distribution point" there is another shut off valve, which then connects to "T" grade hose for direct distribution to the torch or torches.

If you want to keep your oxygen outside, a similar type of process can be done for the oxygen line. There is no maximum pressure requirement for oxygen, so you can run as much O2 through this separate line as you need to.

Don't put PVC pipe through the wall and then run rubber hose through it. This is a violation of fire code.

When I mention black pipe above, it doesn't have to be black pipe, it can be any hard wall, non-flexible type of pipe, such as stainless, galvanized, heavy wall copper.

On the inside of the building, plumbing from the first inside shut off valve to the "distribution point", the piping can be anything metallic, from soft wall copper to black pipe, to stainless or galvanized. Most of the time, soft wall copper is used because it can easily be bent (use a bending spring) to conform to walls, corners and other obstructions.

All joints must be either threaded or flare fittings. Do not use compression type fittings. If you use threaded fittings, be sure to use teflon tape or gas approved pipe sealant.

On the inside of the building, if the main run from the shut off valve to the "distribution point" is longer than 20 feet, the line must have a sign indicating the gas that is inside the pipe and the direction of flow. There must be a sign every 20 feet. This lets fire professionals know what is in the pipe.

The "distribution point" is anywhere where the gas line converts to "T" grade hose for end-use consumption at one or more torches.

For transitioning from metallic pipe to "T" grade hose, use standard brass fittings, threaded or flare, with a ribbed hose end on the opposite side to match the internal dimension of your "T" grade hose. For example: 3/8" pipe thread on one side, 1/4" male ribbed hose end on the other side.

If the run is going to be long, for example, more than 20 feet, consider increasing the size of the pipe by at least one pipe size. The length of the run from the propane tank to the distribution point in my studio is about 35 feet (up a wall to the ceiling, across the hallway, and down the wall on the other side). I ran 1/2" soft wall copper from the inside shut off valve to the distribution point valve, then 3/8" "T" grade hose from the distribution point valve to each torch.

Larger than 1/4" diameter hose will increase the amount of available volume of gas, giving you more "flow" at a consistent pressure. This is especially important if you have more than one torch, and/or one large torch and several smaller torches. The larger diameter hose will decrease flame fluctuation as the large torch is turned on or off, or if the outer fire ring is suddenly turned on or off (like if you have a foot pedal installed).

[cindylee57]

I have been getting a smoke looking stuff coming out of my torch before I light it. Its been hot in Illinois and I even chsnged the tank and it was fine and again its doing it. Can someone tell me uf its the heat and will that smokey substance ruin my hose. My tank is in the shade on my deck but it does get some sun??? help

[Speedslug]

I don't know what to tell you.


Does it continue to come out after a few (8) seconds? Or is it just a puff at the beginning?


The type of gas hose you are using has to be labeled as "type T" when using propane.

The hoses used with acetylene will disintegrate from the inside when they get used with propane for very long and that can get dangerous.
You usually get a gummy liquid spitting out of the torch when that happens.


Wish I better information for you.

This the first I have heard of this.

[firefreak]

Most propane will put off some smoke before you add the oxygen. this is normal due to incomplete combustion. That is why we use the oxygen!
Also if the tank sets in the heat for a while the pressure inside climbs as the temperature of the liquid propane increases. This is also normal. It can not climb above a preset level due to a safety release devise built into the valve assembly.
The increased pressure can push a little extra at the torch on start-up. That will make the flame a little "dirtier" for a bit. The more expensive 2 stage fuel regulators can help some. Or just start with a very small propane flame and add oxygen right away and then "step - up" a little of each until you reach a working flame.