Copper mesh and cracking

[Kevan]

Has anyone else had this problem with beads and copper mesh? Quite a few of my Dragon Pod beads have cracked on the encased copper mesh part. And cracked in multiple directions, but just on the transparent encased part. They have had different kinds of glass at the core - Vetro, CIM, Effetre and DH.:wtf:

[Troll Lover]

Yeah, unfortunately... Which clear do you use Kevan? Some of my hearts crack as well, on the copper part, even though I put them directly in the kiln. Just the transparant... Haven't found out if it's a thermal crack or because you have to abuse the glass so much. Maybe even incompatible?

I know I keep my hearts a few weeks myself before I put them on sale, just in case...

[Kevan]

Yeah, unfortunately... Which clear do you use Kevan? Some of my hearts crack as well, on the copper part, even though I put them directly in the kiln. Just the transparant... Haven't found out if it's a thermal crack or because you have to abuse the glass so much. Maybe even incompatible?

I know I keep my hearts a few weeks myself before I put them on sale, just in case...

Yeah, they seem to crack a few days later, so I'm holding onto them for a while. It's disappointing for sure. I have been using two clears, Vetrofond Crystal Clear and CIM clear.

[suzanne]

Yep, my beads with coppermesh all cracked on the transparant part ( I used diamond clear, vetrofond,moretti and lauscha. The only clear that seems to work for me is flex. Expensive, but worth every single penny. I am waiting on a shipment with new lauscha reformulated clear and I'm very curious to see what will happen when I use that glass.

[Troll Lover]

It sure is disappointing, they take a lot of time and glass... I'll have to try that Flex for my hearts then Suzanne, I've had a lil' stash but I'm already through it.

[Carmen Isaacs]

What glass is Flex and where do you get it?

[Troll Lover]

I'm afraid it's only in the Netherlands available? But I'm not sure... You can get it at www.stipglas.com (no online shop, but you can send an email).

[suzanne]

From what I know so far Flex is a new glass developed by Stipglas ( this is what I heard, I am not sure if this is true or false) but it's fully compatible with all silverglass , moretti, lauscha and other 104 brands. It's supposed to be compatible with lower coe glass such as kugler and reichenbach 98 and bullseye but I haven't fully tested that yet. I made three bullseye beads encased with flex, and all three of them shattered so that combo wasn't compatible at all.

[Islandgirl]

Mine don't crack as long as I stick to ivory under the mesh.. my clear is 8 year old moretti... (I live out in the boonies I ordered 10 pounds they sent me 10 kilos... I just discovered the last kilo stashed in the back of my studio....) I tried a bunch using vet Yellow Ice (instead of ivory)... they all cracked big time! But all the cracks are on the mesh side!

Lynne

[Carolyn M]

Yep mine have cracked. Glad to hear it's not just me!!

[Carmen Isaacs]

I'm afraid it's only in the Netherlands available? But I'm not sure... You can get it at www.stipglas.com (no online shop, but you can send an email).

Thanks, is it nice and clear??

[tiggybubba]

I know that Sherry only uses Vetro crystal clear. She didnt mention any cracking problems. Mine havent made it to the kiln yet (all have met a watery death!). Maybe she will chime in here with some suggestions...

[Jeri]

I use a lot of mesh with both Moretti and Lauscha clear, and on occasion Vetrofond clear, and none have cracked. I haven't seen Sherry's chaos tutorial so I'm not specifically talking about that technique, but when I use clear over copper I think it is helpful if the mesh is deeply imbedded (or to say it another way, thickly encased) and also that the bead has had a good overall reheating before going in the kiln. Maybe some of that would help. Jeri

[Cabanlet]

I have made a few and used vetro clear and ivory. No cracks and it has been 3-4 weeks.

Amy

[Kevan]

I have used mostly the vetro crystal clear. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to which base colors have cracked and which haven't. I'm going to try putting some of the clear under the base color and see what happens with that.

[quincyandco]

I do fusing also and I have had cracking issues at times, in fusing it depends on how much/thick the metal is compared the volume of glass over it. I suspect maybe that is more the reason for cracking beads. The proportion is important and I think it would be the same for your beads.

[lldesigns]

I use Moretti crystal clear and so far (knock on wood) mine are fine.

[sunnyone]

I have been making them a different way than the tut and I havent had any cracks. I just got the tut and will try it the "sherry" way as well. I do put a lot of trans over the mesh and do super heat it as well.....I'll be watching them very closely. I have been using moretti and vetro reg and crystal clear. I do think I used diamond clear on a couple too.

crystal

[Sherry]

I just found this thread....I've used many different colors of glass for the encasing, pretty much all of the hand-pulled transparents, in particular the 018 and 049. Clears that I've used have been moretti and vetrofond, I've never tried Lauscha or Diamond, or any of the others.

My usual "slug" glass is Moretti light ivory, but I've used Moretti white, and lots of the Double Helix colors as well. I've had these beads in galleries for more than a year now, and have sold hundreds....no cracks.

Except. The one time that I used Vetrofond light ivory for the slug. Crack-o-rama. Right out of the kiln.

I'll watch this thread, this is interesting. I have every confidence in the use of the copper, though.....I've seen marbles that have been around for decades with huge hunks of copper floating around inside, with no issues.

[Katie]

I wonder if the copper is pure or is it the mesh that is made from brass and just copper coated? Scrapbookers don't need the pure copper so it is possible that Michael's may be the brass coated one. Just a thought.
Katie

[Troll Lover]

Like I said, I'm not sure it's not a thermal crack. I have some hearts with cracks here, I'll make a pic of them to show what my cracks look like.

[Troll Lover]

Thanks, is it nice and clear??

And YES, honestly it's the best I think. A bit stiff, but no bubbles or scum, as clear as Lauscha!

[Kevan]

The cracks I have gotten have been all over the clear part. Like compatibility cracks. Like when you encase with Lauscha clear. Some haven't cracked, but the ones with the vetrofond as a "slug" as you call it, Sherry, have. Even though they have been encased in Vetro clear.

I'm using the copper that you get at Michael's , the kind that doesn't unravel.

[Alison D]

Maybe it would help if everyone compared annealing temps and times. Do these need hotter or longer than some of us generally anneal at?
I would like to try this technique but all this cracking is making me chicken.

Alison

[JavaGirlBT]

I know that Mary Beth says when there's a lot of metal in the bead - she uses silver - you have to have a longer soak and a slower ramp down. Maybe it's that?

[Kaye]

CIM and mesh don't seem to work well together.

I made some focals with silver mesh and dichro and had cracks after the fact...so I don't use CIM with mesh of anykind

haven't tried copper cuz I don't have any :(
but it could be CIM

[Troll Lover]

I now used effetre to encase it, it's cooling down in the kiln as we speak. Can't find the hearts that are broken, maybe I've thrown them away already?

[beadlvr]

I can't find it now but I came across a description on a website that was talking about copper mesh and fusing and they used 100% copper. Does the copper from Michael's list the copper content? Could this be a factor?

[Toni Lutman]

I just found this thread....I've used many different colors of glass for the encasing, pretty much all of the hand-pulled transparents, in particular the 018 and 049. Clears that I've used have been moretti and vetrofond, I've never tried Lauscha or Diamond, or any of the others.

My usual "slug" glass is Moretti light ivory, but I've used Moretti white, and lots of the Double Helix colors as well. I've had these beads in galleries for more than a year now, and have sold hundreds....no cracks.

Except. The one time that I used Vetrofond light ivory for the slug. Crack-o-rama. Right out of the kiln.

I'll watch this thread, this is interesting. I have every confidence in the use of the copper, though.....I've seen marbles that have been around for decades with huge hunks of copper floating around inside, with no issues.

I haven't tried this technique yet, but I just wanted to mention that I've talked to several people recently that had compatibility problems when encasing Vetrofond light ivory. They even had issues when a thinner line of transparent was placed over the Vetro light ivory. I don't know if it's ALL Vetro light ivory, or if there was a batch with issues.

[MaryBeth]

I know that Mary Beth says when there's a lot of metal in the bead - she uses silver - you have to have a longer soak and a slower ramp down. Maybe it's that?


Thanks, Ellen:)

I was thinking of coming in her and mentioning this. I know some have had success with lower temps and a longer soak for some things but I would not do that if you are doing metal inclusions.

I soak at 980 for at least an hour after I make the last bead and ramp down at about 1 degree per minute until I reach 700 degrees then I let the kiln cool naturally.

When I first started almost six years ago I was using silver foil with Bullseye and Effetre (not both glasses together!) and I was getting cracking. It doesn't look like a thermal crack.

The solution was the change in my annealing schedule. It immediately resolved my problems. I changed nothing else. And my controller is accurate -I had a relay replaced and the calibration checked about a year ago by Arrowsprings.

I have put some fairly large metal inclusions in my beads and have not had cracking. This includes things like silver cut outs made from silver clay that have been prefired then put into the bead under a coating of clear. I made these about 8 months ago. These were big chunks of silver. I still have the beads - they didn't crack - I just didn't like the way the silver fumed the clear that I used. Still working on that!

I purchased this tutorial from Sherry. I'll let everyone know my results once I get a chance to try it.

[Troll Lover]

Just made one with Effetre rose quartz:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2638749667_2d8a3840e6.jpg?v=1215275953

No cracks so far! I really think it has more to do with heat than incomp. honestly (in my case that is).

[theglasszone]

...I'll make a pic of them to show what my cracks look like.

Now, now!!! Careful...this is a "G" rated thread, isn't it? [-X Just kidding!!! Sorry, Anouk, I just couldn't resist!

SERIOUSLY, this is so sad - so many wonderful beads and the cracking must make you want to cry!!! I would...

I'm going to watch this thread closely and see if this problem is resolved and what the "issue" turns out to be. There seems to be several factors that might be at play - it will be interesting to see if it comes down to one thing or a combo. So far, I think we're considering:

1) Purity of Copper Mesh
2) Type of "Clear" or "Transparent" glass used to encase
3) Annealing temp and cycle

Anouk, I just love your hearts! Kevan, I just love what you've been doing with the "frit" on the "slug", and the Pink one you showed a while back was just TDF!!! I hope none of these have been part of the "casualty" list!

Keep us posted! And thanks for sharing!

~De in CA

[simvet02]

I made two big "Sherry" beads today using the tutorial. One cracked, I used the original Launscha. The crack is running vertically through the middle of the clear. My guess is that this one is due to thermal shock. I did another huge bead with a different clear and it cracked vertically too. I guess I'm going to have to work smaller until I get a bead annealer. The fiber blanket just isn't enough for the larger ones.

Anouk, that is an amazing heart. I must admit, I didn't see the heart when I first looked at it. All I saw was the implosion with a huge pink lump on it's back. Once I saw the heart I didn't see the lump any more. The colors are amazing.

[Kevan]

This one is vetrofond encased in vetrofond clear. I really liked this one.

127159

This one is vetrofond encased in I'm not sure. This one I thought might have to do with the frit which is not 104, but the other one has no frit.

127160

[Troll Lover]

Anouk, that is an amazing heart. I must admit, I didn't see the heart when I first looked at it. All I saw was the implosion with a huge pink lump on it's back. Once I saw the heart I didn't see the lump any more. The colors are amazing.

ROFL :lol: Maybe that's a good name for them implosion with lump :mrgreen:. Maybe I should have shown this pic instead then ;).
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/2639574750_6aa9cbef02.jpg?v=1215275660

But thank you anyway :)!

And Kevan, my cracks are different. Seeing these, I'd say incomp. cracks.

[simvet02]

Yes, that photo is much better.

Let me tell you, when I get done with the poking stage mine look like that which is unnamed.

I ran out of propane right at the end of the second one. Hubby just got back with a new tank.....wahoooooooo

[Kevan]

Anouk, that's what I think, but why would vetrofond be incompatible with vetrofond? It makes no sense. And I have also had the same thing happen with CIM clear. The base on the top bead is on of the odd lot vetros. Honey whatever it is

[theglasszone]

The base on the top bead is on of the odd lot vetros. Honey whatever it is

Dare I say "Honey CRUNCH"? Maybe should be changed to "Honey, DON'T"!!!

~De

[Kevan]

It certainly crunched, didn't it? lol

[ltsexpressions]

I think that is what happened to my 1st one... it was an ivory slug and wasn't marked Vetro or Moretti, so I think it was probably Vetro Ivory and was incompatible! wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh It was really kewl looking on the psychotic side too!~



Except. The one time that I used Vetrofond light ivory for the slug. Crack-o-rama. Right out of the kiln.

[Kevan]

I use the vetro ivory, but I'm using their clear. Shouldn't they be compatible or am I asking too much. lol

[DarleenMB]

OK, stupid question, I know, but are you making sure you've completely reheated the bead thoroughly before you put it in the kiln? I mean back up to a good, red glow?

[Lisa]

OK, stupid question, I know, but are you making sure you've completely reheated the bead thoroughly before you put it in the kiln? I mean back up to a good, red glow?


Kevan - I got thermal shock cracks. This was pre-tute, without the thin layer of clear under the mesh, and I was afraid of metling the pokies, and then put too big a glob of clear on top, and didn't have it hot enough, that I'm sure the center of the bead got too cool - I was worrying about it as I made it. This is Bullseye.
122803

[Cabanlet]

Try putting the mesh deeper. Maybe that will help.

Amy

[Kevan]

OK, stupid question, I know, but are you making sure you've completely reheated the bead thoroughly before you put it in the kiln? I mean back up to a good, red glow?

Yes, they were glowing pretty good when they went into the kiln. I made one with all CIM tonight and I'll see how that worked in the morning.

[DarleenMB]

Kevin who is Larry Hunter? I like his sense of things. ;)

[Kevan]

He's some big republican in Washington. I don't know exactly who he is, but he's known in DC. I just thought the quote had hilarious imagery. lol

[Beadzz]

I started this thread Kevan, same cracks as you got:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94382

I got them not so long after taking them out of the kiln, i've tried it with Flex and that seems to work perfectly.

[Mr. Smiley]

SLOW ramp down times should solve 99% of your issues... my guess (and it's already been said), is that some folks have way too fast of a ramp down programmed in. 950-850 should take almost 2 hours... at the very least.

[Nicker]

I find vetro clear will often crack over "odd" type glass or metals. I always use effetre. I've had vetro clear crack over DH before. Kevan I noticed a few of the Sherry beads you've been making had frit in them, I wondered if they'd crack, and I think you mentioned Lauscha clear too, I don't use it with anything other than lauscha.

CIM glass I treat like lauscha I only use CIM with CIM and Lauscha with Lauscha, never had much luck mixing those clears.

[Alex9]

I've been getting the cracking too...I'm using Moretti clear, Moretti white or ivory for the copper mesh section of the bead...My ramp down from 960 to 860 is 2 hrs, my garaging is at 960, my copper is pure copper mesh. So...are these incompatibility or thermal cracks? If they're somehow thermal cracks I'd have a hard time believing it as the beads are glowing red when put into the kiln.

127346

On this bead, in the lower right hand corner the bead almost looks like it shattered...hard to photograph though. The other area that cracked had done so like a 'Y'.

127345

This is the other side of the same bead...

127344

So...what am I doing wrong?

[PaulaD]

I'll be curious to see how the Lauscha Reformulated clear does and how the Soft clear does. If I had that thing called "Torch Time" I could find out for myself!
Paula

[sunnyone]

I do have a slow ramp down and havent had any cracks

crystal

[Troll Lover]

Made 2 hearts again, and no cracks ;) :).

[Kevan]

I find vetro clear will often crack over "odd" type glass or metals. I always use effetre. I've had vetro clear crack over DH before. Kevan I noticed a few of the Sherry beads you've been making had frit in them, I wondered if they'd crack, and I think you mentioned Lauscha clear too, I don't use it with anything other than lauscha.

CIM glass I treat like lauscha I only use CIM with CIM and Lauscha with Lauscha, never had much luck mixing those clears.

I've had the ones with frit crack and not crack. Both ways.

[Kevan]

SLOW ramp down times should solve 99% of your issues... my guess (and it's already been said), is that some folks have way too fast of a ramp down programmed in. 950-850 should take almost 2 hours... at the very least.

Thanks. I will give this a try.:wave: Anouk what is your annealing schedule?

[sunnyone]

I'll be watching this thread...havent made these since you guys brought it up! I love you guys : )

crystal

[PaulaD]

It seems to me that a slow ramp down would solve a lot of problems.

Paula

[Sherry]

I soak these beads for a minimum of an hour, (968F) and my ramp down is very conservative; Just as Brent said, I take two hours to ramp to 850F. I've always done that though, mesh or no mesh, because my beads are so large.

I'm finding the cracking issue so weird, I have to wonder if some of the copper mesh isn't 'pure' copper? Because that would be a problem, I think.

[Kevan]

Which copper mesh are you using, Sherry?

[Sherry]

I'm using the stuff from Michael's, I've bought it in two different packages, (same maker, though). It's Amaco, and it does say 100% copper on the package, and on the roll.

The stuff that I used to use was just copper window screen, much thicker. I've got beads with big hunks of that stuff in them from 2006; they're ugly, but they're not cracked, lol.

[Rose]

I've have the cracking problem also. Most, not all. So last night I made a large lentil (all of these have cracked before). It went in the kiln red and I annealed at 960 for 2 hours and ramped down to 600 at 50 an hour and let the kiln shut off. No cracks.

Yesterday I opened the kiln and that one was cracked already. I had annealed at 960 for 1 hr. and shut off at 750. Too bad this one that is fine is so ugly, lol!

[framerak]

I'm curious whether the ones that are cracking have any of the silver glasses in them? The ones I've made with any DH in them cracked but ones that were Moretti or Vetro didn't. Weird. I'm using that same Amaco mesh that Sherry uses - 100% copper.

[Kevan]

I made one last night that was all Effetre glass. It cracked too. Mostly I have used all Vetrofond and they cracked also.

Tonight, I set the kiln to Sherry's schedule. Hopefully, I will open the kiln tomorrow and see no cracks!

[Mr. Smiley]

The reason some glass cracks more than others is that they aren't as dead on with their COE. When you start loading glass up with oxides, it behaves differently. If you add inclusions (mesh of any kind), you are also changing the COE layers. Think of it like a sandwich... the more you put on, the more complex the different COE layers become.

COE is Coefficient of Expansion. This is the rate the material expands or retracts when it is heated or cooled. If one material retracts faster than the one it is next to, it will put stress on that area and if enough stress is present, the glass will crack.

Now, imagine a very complex COE sandwich... they are all pretty close, but not exactly the same. What you want to do is minimize the stress between the layers. If you slowly cool it, the layers will contract at much closer to the same rate. If you rush it, the different expansion/ retraction rates between the layers is too much. CRACK!

The soak time at annealing temp is also important. When we work this glass in the flame, we are introducing a ton of stress into the piece. For larger beads, you should soak them for at least an hour... maybe even longer, to relieve any stress already present. Then the slower cooling rates will keep from reintroducing stress into the piece.

If you are going to work glass and sell it to your customers, you should read everything you can on the annealing process. It's time well spent. Once you understand what is going on inside the glass, you'll lose a lot less work and the work you sell will be properly annealed.

I have a sneaky feeling a lot of people don't have a clue about annealing and they think of glass like a pie. We aren't cooking it, until it's hot in the center... it's a whole lot more complex than baking. :lol:

[Rose]

The one I made that is still ok was made with Hades, Gaia, Cirrus, Effrete dark ivory w/ silver and Diamond Clear. Plus copper.

I think the problem is the annealing cycle along with going into the kiln with a good heat base.

[Kevan]

Ok, last night I made 4 beads with copper mesh. I soaked them for 1 1/2 hours at 965, 860 for 2 hours and then off. 2 cracked, 2 did not. None of the beads I made without copper mesh cracked. Of course it was the two that I liked best that cracked. One took a whole rod of red copper green to make.:-(

It's unfortunate that you can't just try reheating these. If it was a goddess or a tube bead I could reheat it, but I don't think I can do that with these.

[Toni Lutman]

Ok, last night I made 4 beads with copper mesh. I soaked them for 1 1/2 hours at 965, 860 for 2 hours and then off. 2 cracked, 2 did not. None of the beads I made without copper mesh cracked. Of course it was the two that I liked best that cracked. One took a whole rod of red copper green to make.:-(

It's unfortunate that you can't just try reheating these. If it was a goddess or a tube bead I could reheat it, but I don't think I can do that with these.

How long did you take to go from 965 to 860?

[Kevan]

How long did you take to go from 965 to 860?

An hour

[squid]

I would control the cooling until at least 750 since you are having these problems - and probably at a slower rate - say 60 dph. If you have a fiber kiln, I would control it even lower - to at least 650.

[Kevan]

I would control the cooling until at least 750 since you are having these problems - and probably at a slower rate - say 60 dph. If you have a fiber kiln, I would control it even lower - to at least 650.

It's brick, but I will try that. It's soooo disappointing. However, I have lots of beads to toss in the ocean. :cool:

[Toni Lutman]

I agree. Maybe slow down that ramp time. I went to longer soaks and slower ramping down when I started with the silver glasses, but I can't remember what I have it at right now. I just broke down and bought the tutorial. It's supposed to be 107-111 for the next few days though, so no torching in my hot studio till it breaks a little.

[Beckah]

You can also fuse the cracked beads flat rather than tossing them into the ocean. I had some beads that cracked from air bubbles (and mesh may be causing some air to become trapped) and when I fused them, it got rid of the spaces and they were fine.

[Troll Lover]

Thanks. I will give this a try.:wave: Anouk what is your annealing schedule?

Kevan, I ramp up to 504C and keep them in there for 3 hours at that temp. I believe I cool down with 200C per hour to 425 and keep that temp for 30 minutes. Then I shut my kiln off. I mostly put my hearts straight in a hot kiln at 504C. They go in there red glowing, every part of it.

[Troll Lover]

I think that the beads that cracked, weren't hot enough when they went in the kiln. I really make sure that my chaos part is glowing, I reheat it after I finished my bead and that way, the cracking is minimal (well, in my case that is). Hopefully this new annealing schedule will help Kevan!

[Jaterwunky]

I am having same issue, made a bunch, I'd say 50% cracked after a couple of days. I am just waiting for the others to crack. All of the vetro odd lots cracked, clear was moretti crystal, diamond clear, old moretti and vetro clear. Amazingly the obne with diamond clear and psyche has yet to crack. I am putting lots of clear, the beads are glowing when they go in my kiln, I garage at 680 soak for a hour and ramp 90 degrees an hour till 600 then off. Kiln is fiber.
Same problem as Kevan, lots of toss beads...
BTW Kevan that sucks.....
I will try the slower ramping and see if that helps... Are you guys still getting cracks with the slower ramping?

[Kevan]

Anouk, I always put my beads in the kiln glowing. The kiln is in a dark part of the room and it's hard not to see them glowing, so I don't think that's the problem. Now I just noticed one I made last week has now cracked.

Ouch!

[Mr. Smiley]

Kevan, your ramp down time is still too fast for this size and type of bead. Try slowing it down even further. Take at least 2 hours to go from 965 to 860. You only need to hold at 850 or so for about 30 minutes... if you went slow enough to this point, any additional time won't hurt it, but it prolly won't help either. If you have a brick kiln, you should be able to just turn it off at 850-860, but you may want to program it at 200 degrees per hour between 850 and 400... just to be safe.

[Mr. Smiley]

The test bead I made was pretty big and it hasn't cracked. I used Diamond Clear and Efetre color. I promised Sherry I'd get a picture of it, but it will have to wait until I get back from Arizona. Sorry Sherry... that other boro one is still heading your way. Heck, I'll send both when I get home. :love:

[Kevan]

Thank Brent, I will try that.

[Mr. Smiley]

Good luck. I hope it helps. ;)

[Sherry]

Yep, it's pretty confusing to me, all of this cracking! People have been making glass beads by winding molten glass on copper tubes for many years, and there are no compatability issues. Think of glass enamels on thick copper; some have survived for centuries. No cracking.

I've been making and selling these for years, many to repeat customers; no cracking, except the one small bead with vetrofond ivory.

I'm unhappy for those of you who are having these issues, but aside from glass incompatability and/or insufficient annealing heat or time, I just don't know what to suggest.

It seems to me that if you can wind a bead on a fairly heavy piece of copper tubing, (Arrow Springs sells it for that purpose), you should be able to include a fairly insignificant amount (proportion-wise) of copper into a glass bead. My experience, and that of others who routinely use copper mesh in glass beads has borne this out.

This doesn't help though; I realize that. I'm just stumped, but will continue to try to figure out why you guys are having these issues. If it had ever happened to me, I'd be further ahead, ironic as that sounds!

[Troll Lover]

Don't worry Sherry, I'm sure nobody holds you responsible for the cracking of their beads. Well at least, I'm not :).

That's really crappy Kevan, that that bead also cracked. Why not try one without frit and/or vetro glass? Just plain moretti and see what happens then? It's so frustrating, I'm very sorry for you (and all the others of course).

[PaulaD]

I have one suggestion and that is that you anneal higher like maybe around 980 and then ramp down really slowly.

Paula

[Kevan]

Of the 4 I made last night, 2 came out cracked. I soaked them for 2 hours at 965, lowered them to 850 over 2 hours, held them there for 2 hours and then off.

I don't get it and I'm not holding you responsible, Sherry. You obviously have been doing this for some time and not having this cracking issue.

[Astrid Riedel]

I have a feeling that the poking into the bead causes a lot of extra stress, and therefore will need a lot of reheating to get the glass to flow again.
I have made beads with sheet copper wound all around the bead and they never cracked, so its not the copper which is the problem.
I am amazed that many of us are having the same problem.


Strange to me is that it seems to happen to both the smaller bead and the larger beads, If annealing is so critical because of the size then why do the smaller ones also break, considering they should heat through (anneal) faster?

I might stick to making the beads somewhat simpler at first until we have the cracking under controll and don't waste so much glass and time.

Astrid

[AKDesigns]

Of the 4 I made last night, 2 came out cracked. I soaked them for 2 hours at 965, lowered them to 850 over 2 hours, held them there for 2 hours and then off.

I don't get it and I'm not holding you responsible, Sherry. You obviously have been doing this for some time and not having this cracking issue.

I know you have a brick kiln but I do a slow ramp down until I hit 400 and then it shuts off. Maybe this type of bead needs to cool down slower than your schedule is allowing.

[glassymom]

I had one crack, it was vetro light ivory and moretti trans amber. It cracked like crazy. Next one I made with moretti dark ivory and no cracks so I figured maybe the vetro ivory?
sue

[Sherry]

I had one crack, it was vetro light ivory and moretti trans amber. It cracked like crazy. Next one I made with moretti dark ivory and no cracks so I figured maybe the vetro ivory?
sue


The only chaos bead that ever cracked for me was with vet light ivory. (And it was a "baby" chaos bead, a test bead for a set; about 22mm.) It came out of the kiln with multiple cracks. I specifically mention that in the tutorial, it was really freaky to me, because it was the ONLY time I ever had a crack. I threw out more than a pound of that glass, I won't ever use it again for anything.

[PaulaD]

I had one crack, it was vetro light ivory and moretti trans amber. It cracked like crazy. Next one I made with moretti dark ivory and no cracks so I figured maybe the vetro ivory?
sue

Nope. There was a very big batch out of Moretti Trans Amber that was not even compatible with itself. :grin:


Paula

[Troll Lover]

I made one with transp. Pink Lauscha and it's still fine, a week old now:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/2656211458_bbd6897d6d.jpg?v=1215707801

Tomorrow I'll try one with my just arrived Flex glass (it's made in the Netherlands I believe).

[Kevan]

I have only Vetro Ivory light and dark. I buy their "regular" colors instead of Moretti. However, I made one bead with their odd lot italian marble ivory, their rose quartz and their rubino and it cracked too. I'm wondering if it's the size of the bead because the big lentils Sherry makes are much larger than the beads I have been making. Mine are aobut 30mm x 20mm give or take a couple.

And these are the only beads that are cracking. Other beads that I'm making and annealing with them aren't, so I'm wondering if it's the size of the bead and the copper or something.

[Troll Lover]

I used the rose quartz for encasing as well Kevan, it didn't break (yet). And I have a bead set from Sherry with little beads and the chaos inside as well. I really can't think of anything why it happens, I'm so sorry for you!

[Toni Lutman]

I have only Vetro Ivory light and dark. I buy their "regular" colors instead of Moretti. However, I made one bead with their odd lot italian marble ivory, their rose quartz and their rubino and it cracked too. I'm wondering if it's the size of the bead because the big lentils Sherry makes are much larger than the beads I have been making. Mine are aobut 30mm x 20mm give or take a couple.

And these are the only beads that are cracking. Other beads that I'm making and annealing with them aren't, so I'm wondering if it's the size of the bead and the copper or something.

Kevan,

Is there any one color that seems to be in all (or most) of the cracked beads?

Why don't you make 3 test beads, all approximately the same size.
1.) Chaos Bead
2.) Similar size and shape bead, using the same colors, except maybe just have a copper inclusion, without the tentacles.
3.) Similar size and shape bead, using the same colors, leave out the copper.

Make these all the same day, using the same colors. See if any/all crack. It will take up some time, but as it is, you're losing time with all the cracked beads anyway. If you do a systematic testing, you might be able to narrow it down.

I may have missed it, but are you sure that what you're using is 100% copper? If you're not sure, or can't find 100%, let me know, and I'll send you some.

Also, could your kiln calibration be off? If so, it might not matter for regular beads, but with the additional stress of the inclusions and manipulation, maybe it's making a difference?

Good Luck. I can't imagine how incredibly frustrated you must be. I bought the tutorial, but haven't had a chance to get out to torch yet. It's been 105-110 the last several days, so I'm waiting for it to drop to below 100 tomorrow before I go out to my studio. When it's this hot, the A/C can't compete with 3 concentrators, a kiln, and a torch. Yuck!

[Kevan]

I'm using the same mesh that Sherry uses, the stuff from Micheal's. The only thing that is the same in most of them is the Vetrofond Crystal Clear which is what she uses also.

I'll give your idea a try. It is frustrating and it's always the nicest looking ones that crack.lol

[squid]

I know you have a brick kiln but I do a slow ramp down until I hit 400 and then it shuts off. Maybe this type of bead needs to cool down slower than your schedule is allowing.

I agree - 850 is just barely below strain point really.

[Jane P]

I took Sherry's class at Glass Smith here in B.C. in the spring. I have made about 10 of these beads and haven't had a cracking issue yet - "touch wood". I usually make them at the beginning of my torching session, so they have a long soak at 970, sometimes as much as 5 hours while I finish off my session making other type of beads. My kiln (a little fiber chili pepper) cools down at 220 degrees per hour to 200 degrees and then shuts off.
(Now running downstairs with a magnifying glass to check on my mesh chaos beads)
;)

[Robinsglass]

I have used Moretti Dk ivory, opal yellow, raku 108, marble avacado, and more, encased with vetrofond crystal clear and only had cracks with the raku. I am using the same copper. Mine are soaked over 2 hrs at 940, ramping down at about 200 dph. Hope you find the probs Kevan.

[Kevan]

I'm becoming very discouraged. Two beads I had listed I just noticed now have cracks. I think I'm at about a 70% crack rate.

That's hours of work and a lot of glass.:-(

I will try ramping them down even slower.

[Carolyn M]

I've made two more beads now and soaked them at 950 for 7 hours, slow ramp down to 800, hold for an hour then switch off and cool for 6 hours. I used Moretti dark ivory and CIM to encase. No cracking after a week.

[beadlvr]

I don't have the tutorial yet so I don't know all the steps involved but was wondering...can the rate at which you make these beads play into it? I personally am really slow at the torch and I have heard/seen some people make beads really fast. Can that have anything to do with it? Maybe working faster in between the steps involved in making the Chaos beads so that the different layers are not hot enough...along with the annealing/ramp down rate?

[Kevan]

All of these cracked -

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2661707449_48d27a1b2c_o.jpg

But these did not-

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2231/2662532560_e2683696fe.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/2662101411_06ba791280.jpg

And this one is a big one, 37mm. It did not crack.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3173/2662100995_c8e85d00d3_o.jpg

[Toni Lutman]

:sad: Kevan, that has to be so frustrating!

I've only made two so far, and both are fine. Of course, it's only been one day, so ??? Both of mine are pretty big. The tentacles are dark ivory. I don't have the "tentacular definition" down yet though. I definitely need more practice. They're both fat tab/lentil shaped. I was using River Rock and silver glass, so worked them both for a looooooong time to get the effect I wanted.

And, how stupid am I to use River Rock and silver glass on my first tries? :-s :lol:

[Lisa A]

Awsome beads here, all of them!!

I finally tried the copper mesh yesterday, not the chaos style, just the mesh. I heavily encased the mesh, did the very slow ramp down and long soak times as suggested here, and they came out of the kiln fine. I will not list these for a while just to make sure they are okay.

Kevan, I'm sorry you are having problems. It has to be frustrating!! Those are some gorgeous beads girl! I'll let you know if mine crack.

[Mr. Smiley]

It's OK Toni... I used River Rock and Psyche on my first. :lol: Glad to know I'm in good company. ;)

[Toni Lutman]

It's OK Toni... I used River Rock and Psyche on my first. :lol: Glad to know I'm in good company. ;)

heh. :grin: Thanks. And, the silver glass I used was Psyche too. :smile: I was going to ask about your tentacular definition, but I should probably pass on that, huh? :razz:

[pam]

I've just read this whole thread - all this cracking is a pain!! The only thing I can come up with is, as Brent and others have stated, the annealing. Copper doesn't usually present a compatibility problem. There seems to have been used a variety of glasses, so that doesn't add up. The annealing is about the only thing left. Holding even a large bead for more than an hour or so is enough time to allow the bead to become the same temp all the way through. Ramp down SLOWLY.

Kevan, you mentioned that you held the bead for a period of time at 965 for an hour and a half (hold time - great) then lowered to 850 over two hours and then off. Since kilns vary as to their temp accuracy, I would suggest that you try going from 965 to 750 over 4 hours, then anneal down to 400 to prevent thermal cracks before turning the kiln off. Don't know if it will work, but certainly worth a try.

Some of the beads I have seen pictured seem to have cracks stemming directly from bubbles near the surface. Bubbles near the surface set the bead up for cracking, so either pick them out or cover them with more clear before completing the bead.

That's it - not much help, but hopefully something will work.

[Mr. Smiley]

heh. :grin: Thanks. And, the silver glass I used was Psyche too. :smile: I was going to ask about your tentacular definition, but I should probably pass on that, huh? :razz:

It's good. Thanks for asking! :D

[suzanne]

And, how stupid am I to use River Rock and silver glass on my first tries.


I guess I'm on the stupid boat as well, I used ASK and Tag Tibet

[Henrywashere]

Is anyone making these beads with 96 cause that is what I use. I find if I put a big bead into the kiln glowing just about everytime it will come out cracked. 96 doesnt like to go in glowing. I know I am still a long way from making these beads. A I dont have an Etsy account so cant buy the tutorial B I dont have the mesh and C then apart from when I do have the tutorial I cant make a organic style bead to save myself. Has anyone done them with flowers?

[these jewels rock]

Kevan,

Your beads in the showcase today are beautiful! What was your solution to the cracking problem?

Thanks!

[simvet02]

The reason some glass cracks more than others is that they aren't as dead on with their COE. When you start loading glass up with oxides, it behaves differently. If you add inclusions (mesh of any kind), you are also changing the COE layers. Think of it like a sandwich... the more you put on, the more complex the different COE layers become.

COE is Coefficient of Expansion. This is the rate the material expands or retracts when it is heated or cooled. If one material retracts faster than the one it is next to, it will put stress on that area and if enough stress is present, the glass will crack.

Now, imagine a very complex COE sandwich... they are all pretty close, but not exactly the same. What you want to do is minimize the stress between the layers. If you slowly cool it, the layers will contract at much closer to the same rate. If you rush it, the different expansion/ retraction rates between the layers is too much. CRACK!

The soak time at annealing temp is also important. When we work this glass in the flame, we are introducing a ton of stress into the piece. For larger beads, you should soak them for at least an hour... maybe even longer, to relieve any stress already present. Then the slower cooling rates will keep from reintroducing stress into the piece.

If you are going to work glass and sell it to your customers, you should read everything you can on the annealing process. It's time well spent. Once you understand what is going on inside the glass, you'll lose a lot less work and the work you sell will be properly annealed.

I have a sneaky feeling a lot of people don't have a clue about annealing and they think of glass like a pie. We aren't cooking it, until it's hot in the center... it's a whole lot more complex than baking. :lol:

Is it safe to say that even glass made by the same company and of the same COE can be slightly incompatible because of the different minerals/metals and chemicals added to produce the different colors. And, that annealing is the process of trying to make all of these different glasses more compatible or at least remove most of the stresses between them?

[simvet02]

Ok, last night I made 4 beads with copper mesh. I soaked them for 1 1/2 hours at 965, 860 for 2 hours and then off. 2 cracked, 2 did not. None of the beads I made without copper mesh cracked. Of course it was the two that I liked best that cracked. One took a whole rod of red copper green to make.:-(

It's unfortunate that you can't just try reheating these. If it was a goddess or a tube bead I could reheat it, but I don't think I can do that with these.

Hey Kevan, what do you have to loose? It's already cracked.......

[pam]

Hi Jan, when glass is made the manufacturers are supposed to make adjustments in their formula for the different oxides and minerals they use to color the glass so that their glass meets the coe of their other glasses, but..........sometimes what they do is not as precise as we as beadmakers need it. Also, compatibility of glass can be affected by a number of other things than coe. Coefficient of expansion is only one measure of compatibility. At what temperature the glass contracts is another important measure. If one glass contracts mainly at 940 and the other glass contracts mainly at 870, then that can set up failure in the glass. Say you case the glass in something that contracts at 940 and the underneath glass doesn't contract until 870, cracks will form in the casing when it contracts.

[simvet02]

Lovely, I tried another chaos bead AND an aquarium bead today. I tried using my fusing kiln. That just isn't going to work, it's too darn hot when I lift the lid to put them in with the elements on the top. I did it but don't have any hair left on my right arm....LOL We shall see how they come out. I went with the very conservative annealing schedule, it won't be done until midnight, at which time I will just turn it off and wait until tomorrow.

thanks Pam. It all makes sense, of course, just not great news.

[Troll Lover]

I made a really small lentil and it cracked as well... But I do think it's beacuse of the glass I used for the chaos: odd lot TN202...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2682014542_bcb86889d8.jpg?v=1216453447
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2681196835_cb9c0c0a16.jpg?v=1216458831

[PaulaD]

It looks to me like the photos with the thicker encasing are not cracking..
Paula

[Marlene]

Have just found this thread but after reading all the maybes, Could it be that the copper is dirty or has oxidised while being encased. I always put my copper in a mind acid wash before using and have not had any cracking ....with tongue in cheek I say yet! as I only tried it twice and almost had to give the beads away, nobody appreciated them here in Au.

Marlene
Marlene

[chrissij]

All of these cracked -

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2661707449_48d27a1b2c_o.jpg



I'd still love the third one down on the left...the RCG one. I'd name it George and love it forever. ;)

[Kevan]

I'd still love the third one down on the left...the RCG one. I'd name it George and love it forever. ;)

Because it's green? lol

I used a whole rod of red copper green to make that.:-(