View Full Interactive Version Of This Page : A simple press idea for da shiny bit :)
For you Kristib how it makes you smile :)
Wow Andrew. This is great. Had I not bought something already I would definitely try this.
Joyce
Hi Joyce and thanks for the comment :)
VivianLampwork
2008-07-15, 2:57pm
Brilliant idea!!
I'm going to show this to my husband. I think we bought a flaring kit from Harbor Freight already. Thanks for sharing this.
How cool is that.. Where would you find something like the base piece you have it on.?
I wonder if it could be retrofitted to an arbor press.. Habor Freight has those too.. Looks kinda like one of the core presses..
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3552
blong2001
2008-07-16, 5:41am
Andrew-more outstanding work! Thanks!!
Beth
Blueflameart
2008-07-16, 7:21am
Awesome!!! Sorry there is no edit on TAM 8) Great idea and thanks very much for sharing!
Brilliant idea!!
I'm going to show this to my husband. I think we bought a flaring kit from Harbor Freight already. Thanks for sharing this.
Andrew-more outstanding work! Thanks!!
Beth
Thanks guys you are to kind. Im blushing. :)
How cool is that.. Where would you find something like the base piece you have it on.?
I wonder if it could be retrofitted to an arbor press.. Habor Freight has those too.. Looks kinda like the moore press..
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=3552
Hi Megan you have given me an idea il have a look into it today after ive done a few orders :)
Awesome!!! Sorry there is no edit on TAM Great idea and thanks very much for sharing!
Lol thats okay sorry for the mess :)
MY pleasure and thanks. Lovely workshop you have there.
Regards
Andrew Watherston.
theglasszone
2008-07-16, 8:36pm
Wow, Andrew!!!! What an amazing idea!!! I'm wondering if - Megan or anybody else - has taken an "up close and personal" look at that Arbor Press from Harbor Freight (shown in Megan's link in Post #7 above). How do you suppose you could "retrofit" that? I'm trying to picture it...I think that "crank down" thingie is what is called the "ram square" - yeah? Is it solid? Does it have a threaded hole in it where Andrew's suggested Flaring Tool could be attached? Wondering what a Machine Shop would charge to drill that pup to accommodate/thread the Flaring Tool right in there!!!
BRILLIANT!!!!
If anyone has luck with their mods of drill or arbor presses, please share info and pics.!!!
Thanks!
DeAnne
I've been working on putting these pieces together too. Just hack-sawed off the tube flaring tool (with plenty of bolt left) and fit the bolt into a tight brass sleeve, wrapped this tightly in cardstock (yep, will find the right size tubing or 'something' better later!) and pushed it up into the hollow round steel tube (within the square stock) of the arbor press. Holds great!
I am waiting for Andrew's FF stand to arrive (for the bottom bead holder) and plan to use a flat piece of steel on the arbor platform or under the arbor press (with the press clamped to the table) depending on clearance necessary.
theglasszone
2008-07-16, 10:18pm
Gila...
This answers the question (since I haven't seen the Arbor Press yet) whether there is already a hole in that "ram square" thingie...yes! I suspect you and Andrew are on the same wavelength...(me too!) Andrew is an amazing and ingenious inventor...agreed?
Looking forward to what you all come up with!
De
De,
Absolutely, Andrew is great, game and giving. So nice to have info freely shared!
This thread is very timely; my dad was clearing out 'stuff' and I snagged the arbor press hoping to put together a 'Jim Moorish' tool. I've been tripped up by the tube flaring tool (bought two, popped the flare pieces off by back turning, and figured I'd have to weld them on to some round stock). Much easier just to cut, and use tension to hold. Also nice to have the versatility of changing tool heads if needed. Rio Grande has some Delrin hammer head replacments that might be converted for the snugger part...
Andrew
2008-07-16, 11:28pm
Yahoo go Gila. Can you verify the hole size in the base of the 1 inch square arbor pretty please? To make sure its the same size as the ones over here.
Really you guys are far to nice to me. I enjoy doing it.
Regards
Andrew
Andrew,
It looks like 1.55cm internal dia. on the inner tube.
Andrew
2008-07-17, 12:44am
:-PAndrew,
It looks like 1.55cm internal dia. on the inner tube.
128885
Wow top job Gila. Love it. :) Thanks for the measurement too as i dont think the one my mate has comes with a hole :rolleyes:. The idea i have doesnt matter if there is a hole in the bottom or not but im interested all the same.
I totaly love the frog on etsy that is so cool and being good at oragami have you tried it on pmc paper. Saw some flowers done in it and nearly made me go out and get some. Lol i cant take on anymore hobbies im so sidetracked now i cant find my way to the kitchen.
:-P
Regards
Andrew.
Can anyone else with a Arbor press tell me if they have holes in the bottom pretty please.
Thanks Andrew!
The frog is based on one of my mom's sketches and started my glass bead-making adventure, I could never find the right belly bead.
I've been curious about the PMC paper for origami and actually picked some up, just need to try it. I like using silk fabric over foiled paper as it is such a nice skin, all shimmery and tactile.
KristiB
2008-07-17, 9:29am
What is WRONG with people?!?!?!
Jim Moore has supported the glass industry for years with quality tools. Doesn't ANYONE else think it's morally wrong to give directions on how to rip off someone elses idea/tool??? Is everyone really only out for themselves and what they can get without stopping to think about what is right and what is wrong?
I guess not...oh that's right.. once ANYTHING is posted on the internet it's free game for anyone to copy.#-o
This thread should be removed!
Sometimes this place totally disgusts me....
Kristi (Pollyanna)
wolfotter
2008-07-17, 9:59am
What is WRONG with people?!?!?!
Jim Moore has supported the glass industry for years with quality tools. Doesn't ANYONE else think it's morally wrong to give directions on how to rip off someone elses idea/tool??? Is everyone really only out for themselves and what they can get without stopping to think about what is right and what is wrong?
I guess not...oh that's right.. once ANYTHING is posted on the internet it's free game for anyone to copy.#-o
This thread should be removed!
Sometimes this place totally disgusts me....
Kristi (Pollyanna)
I totally agree with you Kristi........
Andrea
blong2001
2008-07-17, 10:04am
Frankly I am pleased that there can be a cheaper alternative around for people like me. I do not have the money to buy the good tool. I find this no different than grinding a different groove or notch in a tool that I purchased. I am not using it for its original purpose-but if it works for me why not? Some of my best tools came from my silverware drawer.
There will always be buyers for Moore's tools. There are plenty of people that do not want to go buy and modify things. They want it to work right out of the box.
Beth
KristiB
2008-07-17, 10:13am
Frankly I am pleased that there can be a cheaper alternative around for people like me. I do not have the money to buy the good tool. I find this no different than grinding a different groove or notch in a tool that I purchased. I am not using it for its original purpose-but if it works for me why not? Some of my best tools came from my silverware drawer.
There will always be buyers for Moore's tools. There are plenty of people that do not want to go buy and modify things. They want it to work right out of the box.
Beth
Fine. Go figure it out for yourself, make one.. don't have a problem with that, but to post pictures and diagrams on how to build something that someone else does is W-R-O-N-G.
Hmmmmm sort of like posting a tutorial on how another artist makes a bead.
Whoa...lots to think about and discuss here.
I do think that freedom of shared info and enthusiasm are where innovation stem from, to limit access to this info would be unfortunate and sad. People make their own choices about what to do with this info, but to censor? I really hate it when the focus becomes monetary...
These parts are available, the resultant blisters and 'jerry rigging' aspect won't appeal to everyone.
Nicker
2008-07-17, 10:41am
Glass artists were recently up in arms about other beadmakers copying them and undercutting there prices. How is this any different?
It's not OK to copy and undercut another beadmaker but it's OK to do it to a tool maker?
suzanne
2008-07-17, 10:45am
Kristi I totally agree with you here. It's really nice that someone comes up with a less expensive alternative but has anyone here thought of the results for Jim Moore? I see this as stealing money out of his pockets. I'm pretty sure it was meant well but I do think this is way out of line, just as the beadmakers copying stuff. Also, there's always the good oldfashioned dapping tool and hammer for those who can or will not pay the money for a Jim Moore press.
KristiB
2008-07-17, 10:45am
Whoa...lots to think about and discuss here.
I do think that freedom of shared info and enthusiasm are where innovation stem from, to limit access to this info would be unfortunate and sad. People make their own choices about what to do with this info, but to censor? I really hate it when the focus becomes monetary...
These parts are available, the resultant blisters and 'jerry rigging' aspect won't appeal to everyone.
This is no different that if you had a signature bead and I figured out how to do it and posted step by step instructions on how to make it.
Would you still feel freedom of shared information, enthusiasm and innovation applied??
blong2001
2008-07-17, 10:56am
I seem to remember plans to build your own kiln and plans to build a controller here. What about the vendors that sell those items? I do not remember anyone criticizing those plans.
KristiB
2008-07-17, 11:07am
I seem to remember plans to build your own kiln and plans to build a controller here. What about the vendors that sell those items? I do not remember anyone criticizing those plans.
Don't have a problem with it. It's not the same thing. All those vendors did not create HOW to build a kiln or controller. They have been around for years and years. It's like posting the plans to build a toaster or something. If the plans included a unique feature that was a specific kiln makers invention or creation, Yup, I would have a problem with it.
This man (Jim) created and designed a way to make the job of coring beads simple and easier. The guy who makes the retro too (sorry, don't know his name) did the same thing, but did it in a DIFFERENT way. If you want to try and copy it for your own use because you don't want to spend the money, more power to you. But it is morally wrong to post how you did it or to recreate it and sell it as your own.
I don't understand why people can't see this. If YOU were Jim or the Retro guy, would you care??
KristiB,
Are you really from Happy Valley?:)
I guess, that if you figured my signature bead out and posted the steps it would be o.k.
If you were selling a tutorial or these recognizable Gila beads as your own, it would not.
beadlvr
2008-07-17, 11:24am
My thinking is this, and some (lots) may see it as wrong....I would only get upset if I were Jim Moore or the gentleman that makes the Retro Liner if people were taking these intructions and selling the presses/liners they made from those instructions.
Using these instructions to help you convert your tools into a press/liner to line your beads is not the same thing.
My husband made me a mailbox kiln from directions he found on the internet. I am using the kiln to anneal my beads. He is not making those kilns and selling them...
now where's that sofa :hide:
blong2001
2008-07-17, 11:27am
Don't have a problem with it. It's not the same thing. All those vendors did not create HOW to build a kiln or controller. They have been around for years and years. It's like posting the plans to build a toaster or something. If the plans included a unique feature that was a specific kiln makers invention or creation, Yup, I would have a problem with it.
This man (Jim) created and designed a way to make the job of coring beads simple and easier. The guy who makes the retro too (sorry, don't know his name) did the same thing, but did it in a DIFFERENT way. If you want to try and copy it for your own use because you don't want to spend the money, more power to you. But it is morally wrong to post how you did it or to recreate it and sell it as your own.
I don't understand why people can't see this. If YOU were Jim or the Retro guy, would you care?? Did Disney care?
KristiB
2008-07-17, 11:42am
Did Disney care?
Nope. Wanna see my letter? I actually sent them a set because I was going to put them on ebay. There is something distinctly different in mine from theirs.
And yes, I am from Happy Valley.
Posting instructions for people on how to copy something that is created by someone else is not OK. Figuring it out for yourself and making it, I don't have a problem with it at all. If someone posted instructions to your signature bead and how to make it but didn't sell it but the end result was that sales of your beads dropped, I think you would have a problem with it.
Imelt4U
2008-07-17, 11:43am
Oh.my.god. I can't believe we're going here again. Soon... nobody will share ANY thing with the community for fear of being stomped on.
It's human nature to try to figure out things that interests us .... tool or technique. It's been going on since the dawn of time... it's the basis of innovation & progress. It takes a gracious nature to want to share these things with thier chosen families. If someone figures out a better or cheaper way to do something and is willing to share it... I say THANK them for it.
This particular idea will be a big boon for those that can't afford some of the tools on the market. Nor do I think it will affect those sales much. I have Jim's tool... and would've purchased it regardless of this thread. Cause I'm just not a jerry rigger myself & have the money to make the purchase. But I have no problem with those that don't finding a way to do it on thier own. Or helping others in the same position. Frankly I doubt Jim will either.
It's just my opinion... not trying to argumentative.
KristiB
2008-07-17, 11:57am
Joanie,
Would you really feel that way if it was you that made those tools?? If making tools was how you made your living?? Really? You wouldn't care? I am seriously interested because if I put myself in their shoes or a beadmakers shoes.. I'm sorry, but I WOULD care..
I am sorry I ever mentioned the Arbor press.. Or maybe the mistake was made when I said it looked like the moore press.. But either way, I do not see what is wrong with taking two already made tools (the flaring tool and the arbor press) and putting them together to perform a function for yourself and helping others out there build their own that can't afford buying the expensive tools.. A lot of us have jerryrigged tools. And frankly if putting the two tools together is too involved, I will probably save my pennies and buy his press. I just don't see a problem with it. I don't remember anyone having a problem with the thread that showed us how to put two spoons together with tongs to pull petals which looked and worked very similar to Karen Leonardo's petal puller.. I am sure those two spoons took some business away from her but I don't remember any outrage over that.
Also, the arbor press was mentioned in a previous thread about Moore's press in which he responded and did not mention anything about it. There will always be a market because there are a lot of unhandy people out there and those with the $$ to spend.
Okay, now I will duck and wonder why I ever opened my mouth.. (I never get involved in such things)
Imelt4U
2008-07-17, 12:10pm
Yep... that's what I'm saying. I'm saying the market is there regardless... there are niches for every level. Those that will do the jerry rigging would probably NEVER have made the purchase in the first place. But if they can find a jerry rigged way to do the things they want to do... more power to them. That's ingenuity & that's how new tools & techniques are often developed.
I pretty much feel the same way about the art work I do. I share any thing about items I make. If you ask me a question I'm happy to answer it. If you do it better than me... congratulations & maybe I'll learn something from you & maybe the community is enriched by it.
I've BEEN copied... several times... it doesn't change how I feel. Most will never go further than the question & trying it once for themselves. Those that improve on my ideas still won't disturb my sales... they'll be in a niche above me. Those that have to copy the idea exactly because they don't have the ability to make it thier own... they just never go far anyway.
And again... it's just my opinion & experiece. I don't expect to change anybody else's opinions & totally respect thier rights to have them. :::smile:::
Nicker
2008-07-17, 12:20pm
Joanie I do agree with you somewhat. I think there are markets for every level, probably the people jimmy rigging presses would have never bought Jim's press anyways.
BUT I do think copying is copying, if people get up in arms about beads being copied, copying a tool is no different. Here's where our opinions may differ.
While I understand some may not be able to afford a tool, or class, or bead, I don't think that makes it OK to copy it. Especially for re sale or sharing purposes. I can't afford that snazzy new mini I've been wanting, doesn't mean it's OK for me to go steal it.
theglasszone
2008-07-17, 12:27pm
Oh dear!!! I'm sorry for the turn this thread has taken; I hope Mr. Moore isn't offended. I think that business won't truly be harmed for him with information posted such as this. This probably isn't as easy as it might seem, nor does everyone want to "do it yourself", I figure. EDIT: I personally think Andrew is a generous and creative person who seems genuinely interested in helping and not hurting!
While we're on the subject, though, has anyone seen the new Delphi press that looks almost exactly like the Retro Tool Beadliner? I wonder if Delphi is getting flack for it's production?
I'm under stress and this is a little too much to bear right now for me. I OWN a Jim Moore press - not everyone can! I'm going to step away for now...
DeAnne
I
Imelt4U
2008-07-17, 12:32pm
You're right DeAnna... I'll do the same.
Andrew
2008-07-18, 12:05am
well i am totaly stunned i copy rip off other people. can you please point to the spot and show me Kristi. I have asked you on the angry mandrel but havnt seen any response what do you want me to change alter take of. im astounded that you look at what i have done the press i bought about ten years ago and i stuck one of my tools of trade in the end and say i copy and rip off. i had basicaly got over what you said on the angry mandrel and was told you are at it on here as well so please show me what ive done.
Regards
Andrew watherston'
Andrew
2008-07-18, 12:17am
oh oh now im really in trouble looks like stuff ive used sorry kristib
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98334
can a moderator remove this thread please and i will remove mysefl as well thanks for the lovely positive stuff from most. to the others well im a gentleman so i wont say it
have a lovely weekend all :)
Regards
andrew.
bgurden
2008-07-18, 1:55am
i just bought the jim moore bead lining tool and it is extremely well done as are most his tools. he is a well known tool maker for the glassblowing industry that was asked to make tools for the lampworking industry. he lives in the same town as andrea guarino. how do i know this, i stopped by andrea's booth at bead and button and spoke to andrea's husband who was demoing the tool. i agree that its wrong to copy someones idea. if you like this tool, buy it from guy who designed it. do unto others as you would have someone do unto you right?
I think this is all very sad. Andrew deserves big kudos for inventing and sharing how to make his FF stand. His use of a drill press with its ability to accept different sized threads/shafts is unique and versatile.
I was excited to put together parts and see if they work. Other members asked to see pictures and share ideas, I did. Now I know better.
Best wishes,
Gila Fox
rosemarie23
2008-07-18, 9:15am
:sad:
Thank you Andrew, for sharing.
blong2001
2008-07-18, 9:27am
Andrew I also want to say thank you for sharing! Excellent!
Beth
pittypat
2008-07-18, 9:43am
You are still a piece of gold to me, Andrew!!! And a real gentleman....
huggies, pat
If someone were ripping Jim Moore's tool exactly, then yes, I would agree.
However, riveting is not new because of Jim Moore. Jim makes a wonderful, aligned adjustment to a standard piece of equipment. If someone chooses to take a standard piece of equipment and modify it for themself, then how is that different?
I first learned riveting in a university-level metals class many years before Jim Moore came out with his tool. Industry has a tremendous history with riveting Tim McCreight gives excellent instructions on riveting in his publications for jewelrymakers. Leatherworkers have used arbor presses for rivets for years. In fact it was the leather workers that pointed me to an arbor press that does not need modified that will core line beads just fine.
I know some are not going to like me saying this, as we have discussed in PMs before. It seems anytime someone tries something new on core lining, there is this uproar about Jim Moore tools. I decided to stop being quiet. It seems that if anyone does anything with an arbor press, someone feels the need to challenge it. I warned that if I got pissed enough I would post this. I guess I am pissed enough.
The Jim Moore press is excellent. Buy it and go right to coring beads. The alignment is perfect. It is a thing of beauty.
http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051-2-Ton-Manual-Arbor/dp/B00068U7QS (yes, I deliberately chose an unavailable web link--if you want it, do your own search) works, if you are willing to learn basic rivet alignment techniques. It comes pre-drilled and includes flaring dies. Alignment and skill are at the user level, not machined in. Look closely...I think Palmgren made a rivet press long before Jim Moore put his on the market. Did Jim know about the Palmgren 1/2 ton arbor press before he made his bead liner? That's all I am going to say.
asbestos panties--check.
lavendar420
2008-07-18, 10:18am
Thanks for sharing this, Andrew. I hope you don't depart the LE community because of the copying accusations.
Finding a way to accomplish a task using common place materials is exciting & challenging. Improvisation is handy trait to master, and one we all employ in our artwork. The ability to use commonplace items as tools opens doors to this craft for many of us who would never invest in a specialized tools... until we fall in love with the technique & *need* a quality tool to replace our home made or low cost version.
Everyone knows that Jim Moore's tools are top of the line. They are quality items built to last, and bear a price tag commensurate with that quality. My most expensive lampworking tool is his cushion press & I love that thing. But I'm very glad I was able to make do with cheap bbq mashers for a few years. For one thing, it allows me to appreciate the quality of the $100 version!
This home made version of a liner will never compete with the quality tools from Jim Moore & Retro. They have interchangeable accessories & instructions, not to mention high quality materials & craftsmanship. Those of us handy enough to cut through bolts with a hacksaw & own a drill press can make an inexpensive entry level liner tool. The rest of us can enroll in shop classes, use the old skool hammer method, or buck up & buy the fancy nice version.
pittypat
2008-07-18, 10:31am
OK, now Dave,ArtintheRound, who is wonderful, btw, just announced his Xpress...I am waiting patiently for you all to jump him????
pat
Hayley
2008-07-18, 10:36am
http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051-2-Ton-Manual-Arbor/dp/B00068U7QS (yes, I deliberately chose an unavailable web link--if you want it, do your own search) works, if you are willing to learn basic rivet alignment techniques. It comes pre-drilled and includes flaring dies. Alignment and skill are at the user level, not machined in. Look closely...I think Palmgren made a rivet press long before Jim Moore put his on the market. Did Jim know about the Palmgren 1/2 ton arbor press before he made his bead liner? That's all I am going to say.
Thank you for posting this!!!!!
rguttierrez
2008-07-18, 10:43am
Thanks for the information Andrew. I am sorry that you were attacked but I for one really apprecaited what you were trying to do.
KristiB
2008-07-18, 11:07am
once again.. i don't have a problem if someone wants to try and make something because they can't afford it, or don't want to spend the money and use it for themselves.
what I have a problem with is people showing others in a public forum how to create something that someone else is selling, or creating it and then selling it themselves. it's not just presses, but beads as well.
as I signed my first post (pollyanna) prehaps I just don't beleive that everyone should climb all over others and not give respect to our fellow artists and human beings. every man/woman for themselves for the almighty dollar and i don't care who i trample. you can still be successful without being that way. I am not pointing this finger at you andrew so please don't think i am, that was a generalization about some of the things that happen here. i know you were only trying to help people and that's a great quality.
perhaps to me this thread was taking the same turn as sherry's chaos thread, i didn't post there and maybe this one put me over the edge, i don't know. andrew it wasn't just your posts, it was the combination of them all. i used to core my beads with a dapping tool so your fat finger tool is awesome, if I was still doing it that way i would buy one in a heartbeat.. i had no idea that you had never seen any of the other riviting tools for sale.
go for in ginko, post the link, people already have. i have gotten a few pm's from people who have bought them and made their own..having trouble with split tubing because the tubing they bought was too thin, and/or it's splitting because it's difficult to get it lined up properly to get a nice even flare. i can't really help them because i don't have that problem and haven't had to try and figure it out, maybe if it's ok, i could send them your way and you can help them?
pittypat, if anyone should be upset it should be andrew, i mean he posted that first, eh? i see some problem with that tool, but you know what? i'm done. i obviously don't see things the same way as most people here :D
gila.. for you all lower case :D
sorry i didn't get back last night.. i was making beads. i think i'll go do that now
ciao
Imelt4U
2008-07-18, 11:08am
oh oh now im really in trouble looks like stuff ive used sorry kristib
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98334
can a moderator remove this thread please and i will remove mysefl as well thanks for the lovely positive stuff from most. to the others well im a gentleman so i wont say it
have a lovely weekend all :)
Regards andrew.
Oh Andrew... you never even SAW that before... it had no impact on what you came up with. In fact, it may be cheaper than buying the stuff for your jerry rigged adaptation. I don't know.. but if it is... your idea would have no impact on him either. People come up with similar ideas... independently of each other... ALL the time. You don't have anything to apologize for... and it would be a shame for your tutorials to come down. It's exactly what I was afraid of... the whole community is diminished when people are too afraid to share any more.
Imelt4U
2008-07-18, 11:17am
AND.. the thing that gets me the most is the accusation of making money off this. As far as I know Andrew ISN'T trying to sell this tool... not like the links to those other tools... he's just trying to show how he adapted OTHER tools to get the same type of finished product... cheaper. Expense can be a very real issue, to some, in an already expensive craft! It was exceedingly kind of him to make the effort.
AND... quite frankly... I don't have anything against the tools in those other links either. There's not a tool in the WORLD that doesnt' have a dozen different variations on the market. Some cheaper.. some cheap... some exquisite. It's the way of the world.
Andrew
2008-07-18, 11:18am
what I have a problem with is people showing others in a public forum how to create something that someone else is selling, or creating it and then selling it themselves. it's not just presses, but beads as well.
Hi KristiB
The problem still is i never showed anyone how to make a press i showed how eighteen months ago i cut up one of my old trade tools to get a 45 degree form which the lady asked about. How am i copying i just dont understand.
edit if you mean the press in my picture its something i bought when i was in the navy over ten years ago to cap my chilli and tomato sauce. i never built it
Regards
andrew
pittypat
2008-07-18, 11:25am
" i had no idea that you had never seen any of the other riviting tools for sale."
And there it seems is your main problem....look before you leap, I think is the term...and, btw, your apology on TAM seemed a little more sincere. I would have to say that you were indeed in quite a tither to have to argue your point on two forums at the same time......pat
If someone were ripping Jim Moore's tool exactly, then yes, I would agree.
However, riveting is not new because of Jim Moore. Jim makes a wonderful, aligned adjustment to a standard piece of equipment. If someone chooses to take a standard piece of equipment and modify it for themself, then how is that different?
I first learned riveting in a university-level metals class many years before Jim Moore came out with his tool. Industry has a tremendous history with riveting Tim McCreight gives excellent instructions on riveting in his publications for jewelrymakers. Leatherworkers have used arbor presses for rivets for years. In fact it was the leather workers that pointed me to an arbor press that does not need modified that will core line beads just fine.
I know some are not going to like me saying this, as we have discussed in PMs before. It seems anytime someone tries something new on core lining, there is this uproar about Jim Moore tools. I decided to stop being quiet. It seems that if anyone does anything with an arbor press, someone feels the need to challenge it. I warned that if I got pissed enough I would post this. I guess I am pissed enough.
The Jim Moore press is excellent. Buy it and go right to coring beads. The alignment is perfect. It is a thing of beauty.
http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051-2-Ton-Manual-Arbor/dp/B00068U7QS (yes, I deliberately chose an unavailable web link--if you want it, do your own search) works, if you are willing to learn basic rivet alignment techniques. It comes pre-drilled and includes flaring dies. Alignment and skill are at the user level, not machined in. Look closely...I think Palmgren made a rivet press long before Jim Moore put his on the market. Did Jim know about the Palmgren 1/2 ton arbor press before he made his bead liner? That's all I am going to say.
asbestos panties--check.
I agree with Ginko - just because Andrews idea is similar doesn't mean he is ripping off Jim Moore. I am SO sick of people pissing on other people trying to innovate or come up with new ways to do things.
Andrew, keep doing what you're doing. 99.9% of us appreciate it. :)
theglasszone
2008-07-18, 11:36am
(REITERATING MY POST #18 IN THIS THREAD):
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1964815#post1964815
Except to add that when I go see "Batman - The Dark Knight" on Sunday with my family, when the Joker says "And...here...we...go!" (just before attempting to blow-up Gotham, wreak havoc on the innocents and unleash destruction), it will be difficult not to think of this thread - ha!
Hugs to you Andrew!
~De
VickieLee
2008-07-18, 11:53am
OK, now Dave,ArtintheRound, who is wonderful, btw, just announced his Xpress...I am waiting patiently for you all to jump him????
pat
Hopefully, no one will go after Dave's Xpress. I can tell you that his tool was in the works for a VERY long time, before Andrew put his tutorial up in fact. The reason I know this is because I've been his tester on this tool, and I'm the reason he didn't launch it sooner. He was concerned about getting flack for doing a liner tool, but as you can see by his picture it's nothing like what's out there and in a whole other price range. There is and always will be a market for each tool, based on the buyers needs.
I want to thank Andrew for his efforts to help this community. I can't imagine taking that much time to do the photos and tutorial, as a courtesy, and then getting some flack for it. His "intent" is what should be judged and it looks like it was that of pure generosity, not to hurt the current tool manufacturers.
Vickie
what I have a problem with is people showing others in a public forum how to create something that someone else is selling, or creating it and then selling it themselves. it's not just presses, but beads as well.
I see where you are coming from on this, and agree. What I do not see is that JM does not have an original product. He has a beautifully fine-tuned modification. If someone is going to copy that, then yes, I think that is a problem. None of the make-it-yourself tools are in that category.
go for in ginko, post the link, people already have. i have gotten a few pm's from people who have bought them and made their own..having trouble with split tubing because the tubing they bought was too thin, and/or it's splitting because it's difficult to get it lined up properly to get a nice even flare. i can't really help them because i don't have that problem and haven't had to try and figure it out, maybe if it's ok, i could send them your way and you can help them?
Well, I suppose I can, just as I have helped the JM tool owners that have had problems with split tubing and uneven flares, or for that matter the Retro Tool liner user's problems. There isn't a tool on the market that will flare perfectly without any techinique involved. I never, ever said the off-the-shelf arbor press was as good as or better than JM's tool. In fact, I say the opposite. I shall know for certain in a few days.
This weekend we will have a JM tool, manual daps, and an arbor press to play with and compare. I am looking forward to trying the JM tool to see if I want to purchase it. With all this flak, I may not want it even it it gold plated the core and served it up on a silver platter. This bruhahaa likely is causing JM to lose more business than the knock-offs ever could.
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-18, 3:01pm
i used to core my beads with a dapping tool so your fat finger tool is awesome, if I was still doing it that way i would buy one in a heartbeat.
So you ( KristiB) get to choose which tools Andrew is allowed to give tutorials on??? Wow!:-k
KristiB
2008-07-18, 3:34pm
i used to core my beads with a dapping tool so your fat finger tool is awesome, if I was still doing it that way i would buy one in a heartbeat.
So you ( KristiB) get to choose which tools Andrew is allowed to give tutorials on??? Wow!:-k
No Carmen, I don't.
I've said this about 10 times now. It wasn't just Andrew, it was the direction of the whole thread. It's been done before and it ended up with someone selling replica's of one of the presses. Not a modified version, not another way of doing it, but it looked and operated the same. Once again, I could care less if someone makes a tool becuase they don't want to buy it. I think it's wrong to publicly show people how to make something someone elses sells (I'm not talking about dot beads, so don't go there). What someone does for their own use, in the privacy of their own home, I could care less about.
I am done with this subject. I've said what I meant, I've apologied for some things and to me, the subject is over.
Unfortunatly there are those of you that have to go on and on....
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-18, 5:09pm
Sorry KristiB I am obviously having a blonde moment here. I have Jim's press and I just didn't see that Andrew's was the same and I didn't see where he suggested making them and selling them.
I also don't see anybody coming close to making a press like Jim's and giving the customer service that he does so I just didn't think it was necessary for you create such a stir.
I do apologize if I misunderstood you.
Well, it mightn't have been necessarily pointed at Andrew but it was on his thread and he is the one with his teeth kicked in....the evidence says otherwise to me. The apology must been in TAM, not here on this thread where he was also taken to task in public.
Cheers
Kym
129137
I've apologized to Andrew, does it really matter where I did it?
KristiB
2008-07-18, 9:26pm
Well, it mightn't have been necessarily pointed at Andrew but it was on his thread and he is the one with his teeth kicked in....the evidence says otherwise to me. The apology must been in TAM, not here on this thread where he was also taken to task in public.
Cheers
Kym
I apologized for some things in the thread where he totally trashed me WAY worse than this, along with everyone else on this board. He had to start that other thread apparently because I didn't answer his questions quick enough. I wasn't online last night, I was torching. It's not my fault the apology is not here in this thread.
theglasszone
2008-07-18, 9:38pm
129137
OMG!!! I love this...!!! Where in heaven's name did you find this? Nicker, from what I've seen, you stepped up and said you were sorry. I'm not the one at who's discretion it is to accept it or not, but if I were me, I would appreciate the sincerity of it (it's not an easy thing to say) and let it go. That's just me...
~DeAnne
KristiB
2008-07-18, 9:40pm
Andrews tools have been around for many, many years .
Really?? I did not know that. I thought Andrew just started not long ago. I would be interested to see some his tools that have been around for so many years. His Fat Finger tool is cool.
glasshouse
2008-07-18, 10:04pm
I think they mean the arbor press...
Lynne Smith
2008-07-18, 10:37pm
Well here we go again.
We are going to land up on this forum with most people too nervous to give good ideas or advice for fear of setting off the mother grundies in the group. I think that Andrew did a very generous thing. Is'nt it about time that those of you that are so sanctimonious found someone else's cause to fight for, like the homeless and the abused, and let the big boys (and girls) fight their own battles.
As for Sherry's chaos tutorial, one can of course never say for sure, but I think that the thread I started, in fact, sold far more of her tutorials than it ever did her any harm. I would be surprised it Sherry's tutorial is not one of the best sellers of tutorial's so far. It was a very good tutorial but then so was the jellyfish one.
People so often go after the good guys and then when they are getting attacked they say I've had enough of this. Well maybe the good guys who just came on here to help other have also had enough.
Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I've got broad shoulders. I got lots of practise on the chaos thread.
Lynne S
pittypat
2008-07-18, 10:40pm
129168
pittypat
2008-07-18, 10:47pm
The above message took a while to post. My best friend was here and reading this thread and insisted we look for a patent. I have Jim Moore's wonderful press, which on the side says Arbor Press, 1/2 ton, made in China(I sure don't like that last part!)
I always think historical data is interesting and maybe will answer a few questions.
"I am done with this subject. I've said what I meant, I've apologied for some things and to me, the subject is over.
Unfortunatly there are those of you that have to go on and on...."
__________________
KristiB
2008-07-18, 11:21pm
come ON... I never said Jim invented the arbor press. I don't think anyone has.
Please.. give it a rest.
Where is that dead horse smiley?
ziggys
2008-07-18, 11:29pm
Is it that we are afraid there is not enough to go around for everyone? Isn't that the mentality that causes many of the big problems in the world? We see a lack instead of abundance. I think there is plenty for everyone.
Angela
ShellyD
2008-07-19, 12:26am
Well here we go again.
We are going to land up on this forum with most people too nervous to give good ideas or advice for fear of setting off the mother grundies in the group. I think that Andrew did a very generous thing. Is'nt it about time that those of you that are so sanctimonious found someone else's cause to fight for, like the homeless and the abused, and let the big boys (and girls) fight their own battles.
Lynne, you said exactly what I what I wanted to say and believe.
Some thoughts from me:
How is this artform going to grow if no one shares. And with all the goings on lately I don't blame anyone for not wanting to share.
These arguments are not only annoying but so SAD!!!! Give it up people. There is enough to go around.
and a bit off subject.
You people should be grateful for what you have. For people who love and support what you do. For all your bead shows that you have and the outlets you have to sell your beads and tools. For Paypal. For being able to sell on Ebay and Etsy hassle free. For Jewellery Designers who love and adore your work and BUY it. So for once PLEASE be thankful for what you have and stop worrying about others.
Life is way too short for all this pettiness!!!
:hide:
Andrew
2008-07-19, 12:33am
Hi KristiB
This is the last time i will bother is this the apology for me is it?
Andrew, you were only trying to help and I suppose I was more upset by everyone who was jumping on board to get you to make something like what was being sold. I had no idea that you had never seen Jim or anyone elses tool. Looks as though someone is marketing YOUR idea now!
If so then we must think differently about apologies if you think it is over then i will just give up as you are the one that brought it all up to start with. I still have no idea as to why you targetted me and what i actualy did apart from show a lady that asked were to get a 45 degree form. I will now unsuscribe from this thread and not return and hopefuly it will be removed with the rest of my material. I am sincerly sorry i have done what you seem to think that i have. I never set out to do anything but help people as that is what i like to do. I can not even stop myself from doing it and would even help you if you required it. Next time though i do something wrong in your eyes please just try a little diplomacy and give me a pm. I wish you greatest enjoyment in the greatest mediam around being glass.
Regards
Andrew Watherston.
theglasszone
2008-07-19, 1:26am
Andrew~~
I pain to think that this is it for you here at LE - I hope you just mean that you are giving up on this thread! I also hope that with all the support you've received and the thanks and appreciation shown, you will consider sharing your warmth and ingenuity with us again in the future.
Take good care!
~DeAnne
I hope you will stay Andrew, in my oppinion you are a true gentleman!
I normally will not react to these things, because I think some of these problems could have been adressed different.
I hope we all learn from this, and if someone has a problem with a post, PLEASE contact the person by PM first!
There is always time left to get nasty, try it the nice way first.
Jolanda
Lynne Smith
2008-07-19, 2:58am
If so then we must think differently about apologies if you think it is over then i will just give up as you are the one that brought it all up to start with. I still have no idea as to why you targetted me and what i actualy did apart from show a lady that asked were to get a 45 degree form. I will now unsuscribe from this thread and not return and hopefuly it will be removed with the rest of my material. I am sincerly sorry i have done what you seem to think that i have. I never set out to do anything but help people as that is what i like to do. I can not even stop myself from doing it and would even help you if you required it. Next time though i do something wrong in your eyes please just try a little diplomacy and give me a pm. I wish you greatest enjoyment in the greatest mediam around being glass.
Regards
Andrew Watherston.
Now see what you people have done!!!!!!
Exactly what I am talking about. Andrew please don't leave this forum. We need generous, kind people like you to help people like me. Try not to be hurt by some of the people and rather concentrate on all the people who supported you.
Lynne S
bgurden
2008-07-19, 5:33am
i really dont think that anyone is trashing andrew. i think copying advertantly or inadvertantly is a huge issue right now and his posting hit a nerve. its fortunate that we have this forum to hash things out and still be friends at the end of the day!
Lynne Smith
2008-07-19, 5:56am
What happened to free enterprise. I thought that was all part of the American dream. If someone's product is good, and we all know that Jim Moore's tool are of a very high standard, they will survive. As they say, cream always floats to the top.
Lynne S
ShellyD
2008-07-19, 6:26am
i really dont think that anyone is trashing andrew. i think copying advertantly or inadvertantly is a huge issue right now and his posting hit a nerve. its fortunate that we have this forum to hash things out and still be friends at the end of the day!
This might be really stupid question. Banging my head on a wall here. But seriousley how can one copy inadvertantly!!! I mean seriousley. You either copy blatantly or somehow two paths cross at the same place at a similar time or somewhere someone thought of something and someone on another continent/town/city/ whatever thought of it too. And in my books copying is taking something and making an EXACT copy of it. Sitting with the pic in front of you and colour for colour, bubble for bubble, whatever for whatever you sit there any you copy it. I'm sorry copying inadvertantly just does not sit well with me.
And it certainley doesn't mean because ALL of you know it exists that somebody else does!!! Geesh, give it up already. LE is certainley not the extent of the lampworking world because if it is, we're in SERIOUS trouble.
And will someone PLEEEEEEESE tell me why I even bother with these threads!!!
Will people please grow-up. My word............how many of you own a freaking fake snooty handbag for goodness sake. I just don't understand the lot of you.
:rolleyes:
chrissij
2008-07-19, 6:36am
My word............how many of you own a freaking fake snooty handbag for goodness sake.
Handbag's are for sissies...and snooty sissies are the worst. :razz:
Lynne Smith
2008-07-19, 6:39am
Michelle, so well said. How wonderful to have all those things at our fingertips. To be able to buy dollar for dollar and not with our sad old rand. There are so few of us in South Africa and most of us live quite far from each other and all we really want to do is just learn as much as we can and to buy a little when we can scrape the money together. Something made of metal we could never buy and have it sent here so those ideas from Andrew are invaluable for us.
THANKS ANDREW:kiss:
Lynne S
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-19, 6:51am
Well Michelle I am very glad to see that I am not alone when I had my "blonde moment" and couldn't understand what the fuss was about.
Jim's tools rock and I am one of the lucky ones to be able to own a few of them including this press.
It is very sad that Andrew will not post any tutorials again, he was such an asset to have on LE......."another one bites the dust"!
Now see what you people have done!!!!!!
Exactly what I am talking about. Andrew please don't leave this forum. We need generous, kind people like you to help people like me. Try not to be hurt by some of the people and rather concentrate on all the people who supported you.
Lynne S
I agree with you Lynne. It's so sad to see these arguments on this forum. I'm fairly new to posting in this community, but it's always turned me away from wanting to post because every time I come back here to give it another chance, I see it happening all over again. I'm sorry that you had to go through all of this crap Andrew. Good luck to you,
Jack
Hummm there must be something in the water in Africa?
Kristi and Deanne here's another one for you!
129184129184129184
ShellyD
2008-07-19, 9:43am
Hummm there must be something in the water in Africa?
It's South Africa and it's good stuff, I'll tell you that. :fnwl:
For the most - we support each other, we want this artform to grow and we share when and where we can. If lampworking grows we grow and we do better and so it goes on. Thankfully the 'problem children' are few and far between.
We stand by each other, no matter what!! :-D
Lynne Smith
2008-07-19, 9:55am
[QUOTE=Nicker;1966206]Hummm there must be something in the water in Africa?
There is - its called gratitude to the people like Andrew who help out the less fortunate amongst us. Those of us who can't travel to classes and buy the fancy equipment that we would love to have.
Lynne S
DianaDesigns
2008-07-19, 7:38pm
Where is the barfing smiley??? Oh wait here it is.....
I am sooooo 129275 of this copy subject. You people really need to take a break man. I mean geesh, you ran up one side of this person and down the other for absolutely no reason.
It's no wonder people don't like to remain here..really, this is so SICK man.
Now as to whether an apology needs to be said here or privately...
IF YOU RAKE A PERSON ON A PUBLIC FORUM AND/OR PUBLICLY THEN THE APOLOGY NEEDS TO BE MADE PUBLICLY!!!
Otherwise it does not look like you apologised at all.,,,,Get it????? Pride sucks and swallowing sucks even more, doesn't it?
You want to know what the is wrong with people? ASSuming, Hair Triggers, not reading the WHOLE thing, foot in mouth disease...I could go on but I won't.
These people who scream copy copy copy, why don't you just go make beads, make dinner, have a shower, get on with LIFE.
You attacked Andrew for no good reason.
I hope this thread remains, or at least Andrew would post a new one and get this one deleted so as to protect his reputation.
THIS IS Character Assasination and it has to STOP!!!
Flame me if you want, I don't give a flying f**k.
Andrew don't go, keep posting, you have more support then not...so don't sweat it.
KristiB
2008-07-19, 8:17pm
IF YOU RAKE A PERSON ON A PUBLIC FORUM AND/OR PUBLICLY THEN THE APOLOGY NEEDS TO BE MADE PUBLICLY!!!
You might want to have all the facts Diana before you start yelling. I made my apology public on this board in the thread Andrew started to trash me. It's not my fault it was removed.
Andrew and I have made peace. How about the rest of you give it a rest? I think we'd both like to move on.
Lynne Smith
2008-07-19, 11:49pm
KristiB. I am sure you want to move on now. Its not nearly as much fun when the finger is being pointed at you rather than you doing the pointing.
As for the copying issue for heavens sake lets put it to bed forever. What will be, will be and its getting to the stage that people are afraid to post stuff here in case that are accussed of "COPYING. I know because I asked an innocent question and got flamed for about two weeks. Its going to be a long time before I have the courage to do that again.
Lynne S
KristiB. I am sure you want to move on now. Its not nearly as much fun when the finger is being pointed at you rather than you doing the pointing.
As for the copying issue for heavens sake lets put it to bed forever. What will be, will be and its getting to the stage that people are afraid to post stuff here in case that are accussed of "COPYING. I know because I asked an innocent question and got flamed for about two weeks. Its going to be a long time before I have the courage to do that again.
Lynne S
Here, here... well said.
Jack
KristiB
2008-07-20, 12:26pm
KristiB. I am sure you want to move on now. Its not nearly as much fun when the finger is being pointed at you rather than you doing the pointing.
As for the copying issue for heavens sake lets put it to bed forever. What will be, will be and its getting to the stage that people are afraid to post stuff here in case that are accussed of "COPYING. I know because I asked an innocent question and got flamed for about two weeks. Its going to be a long time before I have the courage to do that again.
Lynne S
Actually Lynne, that doesn't have anything to do with it at all. Go ahead and point your finger at me. I don't care. I still believe that posting instructions on how to make someone's unique bead or tool on a public board is wrong. I'm getting ready to go on vacation and I didn't want someone flaming me while I was gone because I didn't reply.
As for your case. Personally, I agree with a lot of the people that were "flaming" in that thread. I don't beleive I posted in your thread, however, since you brought it up here. It's my opinion that you should have gone to Sherry first and asked her how to do the technique. It is obvious that she developed it. Or perhaps ask Anouk, I'm assuming she would have directed to you Sherry. If you want to know how someone does a technique, ask them. I have found that 95% of the time people are willing to share. If they are not, then the technique is unique to them and they are not ready to share, perhaps still perfecting it. I see no problem with this. Given that answer, I would not start a thread asking people to try and figure it out as I don't think it would be respectful to the artist.
In this time of internet where so much information is available sometimes I feel that people feel entitled to anything and everything, when the journey of trying to figure a technique out can be so much more rewarding and fun. Who know's along that journey a person might even discover something new and unique on their own that has not been done. Just because a person does not live near a place where there are classes or they don't have the money to afford classes does not make them any more entitled to the information than someone who does.
I live in Portland, home of several glass manufacturers however, a lot of the big instructors do not come to teach in Portland. Perhaps they come to Eugene which is a few hours away. I normally don't have the extra money for the gas and the hotel that goes along with the class fee, so I miss out. I would LOVE to be taking Melanie Mortels class at the end of the month. Oh well... That does not make me feel more entitled to the information she teaches. I am on a journey... I try new things when the muse strikes me. Some I've never done before, sometimes I've figured out a way to do something and find out later there was a WAY easier way to do it (duh :lol:) but it's the journey I love and it's the journey that makes me love glass more everytime I sit down at the torch. I keep trying to find my own voice and I am confident that eventually I will. Sometimes the things we get for free and don't have to work for mean the least.
Kristi
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-20, 1:33pm
As for your case. Personally, I agree with a lot of the people that were "flaming" in that thread. I don't beleive I posted in your thread, however, since you brought it up here. It's my opinion that you should have gone to Sherry first and asked her how to do the technique. It is obvious that she developed it. Or perhaps ask Anouk, I'm assuming she would have directed to you Sherry. If you want to know how someone does a technique, ask them. I have found that 95% of the time people are willing to share. If they are not, then the technique is unique to them and they are not ready to share, perhaps still perfecting it. I see no problem with this. Given that answer, I would not start a thread asking people to try and figure it out as I don't think it would be respectful to the artist.
Kristi
There you go again. Lynne did ask Anouk. The thread was about "implosion/ hearts" which weren't Sherry's beads and at the time Lynne had no idea it was Sherry's technique. After Anouk said she couldn't help, the thread continued as a journey of trying to work it out for ourselves. It was all meant to be fun, innocent and experimental. Sherry then stepped in to say that she was doing a tutorial and we were so excited and couldn't wait to buy her tutorial.
Not once did Sherry step in and berate us for trying to work it out on our own and if she had we would have we would have stopped out of respect to her. I honestly believe that Lynne to a certain extent did promote Sherry's tutorial because of the thread she started. I have not seen Jim step in and berate Andrew either.
I think the reason that "implosion/heart thread deteriorated into a mud slinging match as this one has is because there is always some mother grundy who feels the need to tell the rest of us what is allowed and what isn't. Maybe some of us can learn about how to behave from Sherry and Jim.
Lynne Smith
2008-07-20, 1:49pm
Well KristiB, are'nt you just the little saint.
For the rest of us mere mortal. I am not even going to start the other thread all over again and I think that Carmen has put it very well anyway. Thanks for that.
I don't for one minute think that because I live far away or that I don't have the money that I am entitled to anything more than anyone else. I think we are all entitled to the kind of information that generous people pass along. And I really don't think that you have the right to tell the rest of us how we should behave. I can only think that it makes you feel good about yourself at the expense of the rest of us. Well I guess we all get our thrills one way or another. I, myself, prefer to pass on information that I think will help other.
Ha, maybe that makes me the saint.
LynneS
I'm getting ready to go on vacation and I didn't want someone flaming me while I was gone because I didn't reply.
Kristi
PLEASE... go on vacation. :wink:
Jack
KristiB
2008-07-20, 7:18pm
There you go again. Lynne did ask Anouk. The thread was about "implosion/ hearts" which weren't Sherry's beads and at the time Lynne had no idea it was Sherry's technique. After Anouk said she couldn't help, the thread continued as a journey of trying to work it out for ourselves. It was all meant to be fun, innocent and experimental. Sherry then stepped in to say that she was doing a tutorial and we were so excited and couldn't wait to buy her tutorial.
Not once did Sherry step in and berate us for trying to work it out on our own and if she had we would have we would have stopped out of respect to her. I honestly believe that Lynne to a certain extent did promote Sherry's tutorial because of the thread she started. I have not seen Jim step in and berate Andrew either.
I think the reason that "implosion/heart thread deteriorated into a mud slinging match as this one has is because there is always some mother grundy who feels the need to tell the rest of us what is allowed and what isn't. Maybe some of us can learn about how to behave from Sherry and Jim.
Carmen
Well, It seems to me that she did know Sherry made those beads by her first post and she didn't initally state that she had asked Anouk if she would share.
She might not have known she started the technique but she knew she made them.
Yes.. maybe some of us can learn from Sherry and Jim....;-)
............
I love the implosion? hearts that Anouk is making. I wondered if there was a turtorial anywhere that could explain the process to me. Sherry makes similar beads. I need, need to know this.
If anyone has ideas or knows how this is done, please share.
Thanks so much,
Lynne S
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-20, 7:25pm
I think Jack is right you really do need to go on vacation!
KristiB
2008-07-20, 7:38pm
Well KristiB, are'nt you just the little saint.
For the rest of us mere mortal. I am not even going to start the other thread all over again and I think that Carmen has put it very well anyway. Thanks for that.
I don't for one minute think that because I live far away or that I don't have the money that I am entitled to anything more than anyone else. I think we are all entitled to the kind of information that generous people pass along. And I really don't think that you have the right to tell the rest of us how we should behave. I can only think that it makes you feel good about yourself at the expense of the rest of us. Well I guess we all get our thrills one way or another. I, myself, prefer to pass on information that I think will help other.
Ha, maybe that makes me the saint.
LynneS
Really? and what are you doing Lynne? You have said how you feel, I have said how I feel. We don't agree. I can respect you and your opinion, and not agree with it and still be civil. Obvously you seem to have trouble with that. As for passing on information, I do that quite frequently. I get PM's most everytime I post beads asking how I did this or how I did that, what color did you use, etc. I answer them all to the best of my ability. I don't think I have ever refused information to someone that has asked for help.
:lol: I certainly don't think I am a saint. I merely stated how I feel, just like you have. We are all human (I think) and we've all make mistakes. I've certainly made some and I am sure I will make more throughout my life. Maybe you haven't experienced that yet?
Lynne, I wish you the best, I am done responding to you. I have made my peace with the person who started this thread that you weren't even initially involved in. Maybe you felt you had to give a little bit back of what you recieved in your thread, who knows. You can continue to spew your anger to me or someone else here, I don't really care. I won't be here in this thread to see it, I don't think there is anything more that needs to be said.
Ciao
PLEASE... go on vacation. :wink:
Jack :rolleyes: How mature :rolleyes:
ShellyD
2008-07-21, 12:10am
I'm just shaking my head in frustration thinking that this had been put to bed. It clearly has not been.:shock::shock:
This is a sad, sad day for the lampworking world. [-X[-X
I stand by Lynne and Carmen - imagine if we had to get our nickers in a knot because you all love using the African theme. Hmmm, wonder why. Because it sells!! Show me the money!! But thank goodness we're not that petty!!!
I have all but given up on this forum :sad::sad:
To share here means putting your soul at risk - and for me that is sad, sad, sad!!!
Lynne Smith
2008-07-21, 1:42am
Hi KristiB,
I have no anger to spew, in fact I think it is all rather pathetic and slightly amusing as you can see by my joke about me being a saint. Said very tongue in cheek.
Anyway have a good vacation and I bet you can't help coming into this thread to have another peek.:oops:
Lynne S
:waving:Have a GREAT vacation!:waving:
Jack
suzanne
2008-07-21, 12:23pm
never mind.
Wow. I go take a class for a week and all Hell breaks loose..
Where is Andrew's info? The link is gone and I'd like to see it.
All I know about tools is that my guy buddies got hysterical when I showed them the thing that spins mandrels for me and told them what I paid for it. These tools have been around for ages but girls had to play with dolls so we female beadmakers didn't know about them! It's very simple to modify most of them for our needs especially if you are a male and speak that language..
:razz:
Paula
chrissij
2008-07-21, 1:50pm
These tools have been around for ages but girls had to play with dolls so we female beadmakers didn't know about them! It's very simple to modify most of them for our needs especially if you are a male and speak that language..
:razz:
Paula
Speak for yourself; I had match box cars, race sets, and tools. ;)
I had dolls AND trucks :)
Wow. I go take a class for a week and all Hell breaks loose..
Where is Andrew's info? The link is gone and I'd like to see it.
All I know about tools is that my guy buddies got hysterical when I showed them the thing that spins mandrels for me and told them what I paid for it. These tools have been around for ages but girls had to play with dolls so we female beadmakers didn't know about them! It's very simple to modify most of them for our needs especially if you are a male and speak that language..
:razz:
Paula
This female beadmaker had horses, trucks, mud and fun! I still own a bigger truck than my husband :p
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-21, 2:12pm
Wow. I go take a class for a week and all Hell breaks loose..
Where is Andrew's info? The link is gone and I'd like to see it.
All I know about tools is that my guy buddies got hysterical when I showed them the thing that spins mandrels for me and told them what I paid for it. These tools have been around for ages but girls had to play with dolls so we female beadmakers didn't know about them! It's very simple to modify most of them for our needs especially if you are a male and speak that language..
:razz:
Paula
Hi Paula:waving: It was :flush: because KristiB was offended.
Hi Carmen!! Can you p.m. me the link??
I am happy that the rest of you had better child hoods than I did! My brother got to break all of Dad's tools. Today he is builder among other things.
Paula
Hi Paula:waving: It was :flush: because KristiB was offended.
*edited* all I have left to say is
86251
Carmen Isaacs
2008-07-21, 2:50pm
Hi Carmen!! Can you p.m. me the link??
I am happy that the rest of you had better child hoods than I did! My brother got to break all of Dad's tools. Today he is builder among other things.
Paula
Sorry Paula I don't have it but maybe it is on his website. PM him and see if he can help you out.
Well KristiB, are'nt you just the little saint.
For the rest of us mere mortal. .........
Ha, maybe that makes me the saint.
LynneS
PLEASE... go on vacation. :wink:
Jack
I think Jack is right you really do need to go on vacation!
Please...the two of you are itching for a fight in this thread. Or, you are just both very rude.
Hi KristiB,
I have no anger to spew, in fact I think it is all rather pathetic and slightly amusing as you can see by my joke about me being a saint. Said very tongue in cheek.
Anyway have a good vacation and I bet you can't help coming into this thread to have another peek.:oops:
Lynne S
Obviously you are aware of the smilies ...if something is a joke, use them. I took your remarks as argumentative. It is possible to have a different point of view and to express it without being rude and insulting.
:waving:Have a GREAT vacation!:waving:
Jack
Again with the rude comments. All I have seen from you since you joined ... rude comments or comments about how you do not like this fourm.
Hi Paula:waving: It was :flush: because KristiB was offended.
It was? You know this?
*edited* all I have left to say is
86251
Thank you. I agree
I have a lot more to say but I just remembered I'm not 12 anymore....
Again with the rude comments. All I have seen from you since you joined ... rude comments or comments about how you do not like this fourm.
The only thing I don't like about this forum is Mother Hens butting in and trying to rule the roost. That's what I take offense too.
Jack
chrissij
2008-07-21, 5:36pm
:lol: It's a mostly female forum...bunches of Moms here...and if people weren't being "butts", no one graced (or plagued) with the Mom gene would feel compelled to "butt in". Simple, really...
:lol: It's a mostly female forum...bunches of Moms here...and if people weren't being "butts", no one graced (or plagued) with the Mom gene would feel compelled to "butt in". Simple, really...
I understand.
Jack
theglasszone
2008-07-21, 6:24pm
Paula~~~
I'll PM you the info...
DeAnne in CA
EDIT: Just to clarify, I personally don't have access to Andrew's Tutorial at this time; I did direct Paula (and others) to Andrew's website, though, and have written him personally to encourage him to consider making it available through email (as opposed to posting directly on his site) so he can provide it at a more discretionary level.
~De
Wow. I go take a class for a week and all Hell breaks loose..
Where is Andrew's info? The link is gone and I'd like to see it.
All I know about tools is that my guy buddies got hysterical when I showed them the thing that spins mandrels for me and told them what I paid for it. These tools have been around for ages but girls had to play with dolls so we female beadmakers didn't know about them! It's very simple to modify most of them for our needs especially if you are a male and speak that language..
:razz:
Paula
Rotary tools have been around forever, but the specific motors Scott uses for the bead spinners are not what your "guy buddies" are probably thinking they are... they're very specific and expensive. I know people who have tried to replicate them less expensively, only to end up spending money on tools that were not precise, lightweight, or controllable enough to do the job.
Most guys like to think they know more about tools than women, even tools that are outside their area of expertise. Most of the time, they're wrong. Don't tell them, though... it hurts their feelings. :)
For the most part, this thread is one of the kinds that makes me want to stay off forums altogether. The people who are driving by after the fact, demanding justice and calling names, I am going to say this flat out; I have lost respect for you as individuals.
DarleenMB
2008-07-22, 7:53am
wow, on page 2 and going no further.
Glad to see the bead police are alive and well.
I really think those of you up in arms about this need to step back and take a breath. Unless you're related to Jim and he's given you permission to speak for him.
sigh.
this is why I keep leaving this place. You'd think I'd learn to STAY AWAY.
You know, reading this thread I just have to laugh and be somewhat pleased that our artists are finally realizing what can be done to a vendor who takes the time to develop something only to have it copied cheaply. Now, before you all jump on me, I actually don't think Andrew did anything wrong. I think his apparatus is nothing like JM's tool and doesn't compete with his at all. That's not what I'm talking about. It is nice, however, to see people in this community standing up for the rights of others that are not glass beadmakers.
Many years ago Gentleman A designed a kiln that was completely unique and marketed it quite successfully to glass beadmakers for whom it was uniquely designed. This kiln used top-of-the-line materials and was reasonably priced for what it was. Sometime later another "gentleman", we'll call him Gentleman B, visited the booth where Gentleman A was displaying and selling this kiln and while A was busy with a customer, B took out a sketch pad and proceeded to open the kiln in such a way that he was able to sketch the way it was configured. Months later B came out with a kiln that was identical to A's kiln except that the materials used were cheaper, and thus he charged less than A was charging for his kiln. Guess what happened? A large preponderance of beadmakers have bought and still buy B's kiln. "A" stayed in business, but the percentage of beadmakers who bought his more expensive, better made kiln was small. Enter into the scene Gentleman C, who saw the kiln at a show and a few weeks later called A to ask kindly if he would share what materials he used and where he bought them, etc., so C could build one for himself that was somewhat larger, but based on the same idea. A, being a kindly, sharing person, gave C the information. A month later C was selling his larger kiln using the the information gained from A. Still, A continued to manufacture his kiln selling to those who were looking for quality. C eventually went on to make other kilns based on other designs and is quite successful. B and C are still in business today, while A has finally succombed to the bead world's ability to tolerate copies of anything but beads.
We as glass beadmakers have a few very innovative people who develop something that is really great for us. My hope is that we support these designers/inventors who strive to make our life easier and who are just as susceptible to those who want to infringe on their designs as we beadmakers are.
Thanks for that historical perspective, Pam. It's good food for thought.
Mimi
tgslampwork
2008-07-22, 11:06am
I was going to stay out of this...but I rarely keep my lips sealed.
A friend of mine was at my place quite a while ago while I was coring beads the old fashioned way. Right away he said "You know, there's an easier way to do that." He doesn't know a thing about beads or jewelry - but I guess he used to 'play' with trains. He told me he used an arbor press for riveting the wheels, I think. Me? I didn't even know what an arbor press was, until almost a year later when I bought the Jim Moore press!
I think Jim Moore makes tools that are creme of the crop - and anyone who uses them knows that. There will always be people like me who want the best of the best, and the ease of not having to 'do it myself' -- and then there will be the people who simply cannot justify the price knowing they can 'do it themselves.' I would actually be interested to know how Jim Moore came up with the idea of riveting with an arbor press...I wonder if he played with trains :)
Pam, if Jim Moore had created the arbor press, or even a significant portion of the bead tool, then I could see the analogy of your example. Jim has chosen to fine tune a tool that is available in the open market. That he choose to modify an arbor press that did not come with dies, and a drilled shank, does not mean there are not arbor presses already on the market that do essentially the same thing, granted, not as elegantly.
My aggravation about all this is that people like Andrew, who made a tool nothing like JM, gets whacked because anything that resembles another method of core lining is *gasp* taking away from JM. The argument can be made that JM copied an existing arbor press concept by Palmgren http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051-2-Ton-Manual-Arbor/dp/B00068U7QS . Just because something exists in the context of the glass world, does not make it an unique design.
As someone recently said, where is/was all the hoopla when the brass tools began to be knocked off? It seems protectionism leans toward favorites and is not an overall practice.
Ginko, perhaps you missed this line in my post, "I think his apparatus is nothing like JM's tool and doesn't compete with his at all." Of course that's just my opinion and since I own neither and am interested in owning neither, so my opinion is worth nothing.
The point of my story, which in no way relates to this specific event, is, I do find it admirable that at least beadmakers are beginning to look at our vendors and say something when they believe they are being wronged. Whether the persons speaking up are right or wrong is irrelevant to what I am talking about. We as beadmakers in a very close community need to start supporting those who are bringing us quality materials to use that we have never had before and stop flocking to the cheapest thing we can find, which only spurs those who build cheaply, as in Gentleman B in my story. We certainly don't want our customers looking to buy as cheaply as possible, or else they would be supporting the factories instead of us as artists. We want them to see the quality of our work and admire the innovation and ingenuity and hard work and artistic spirit that goes into our work, just as we should do to those who make tools for us.
I’m here again to address the importance of tone and sharing.
The positive, motivated communication in this thread was ruptured by an aggressive, condescending attack. This was not a respectful difference of opinion. The allusion to theft, questioning of morals and judgment, assumption of greed...in public. This sets one up for a face-saving altercation (knock-down drag-out) or withdrawal with silence being akin to agreement.
I was, and remain troubled by the tone (TONE!?!?), and the message: It is NOT OK to share ideas when there is the potential for someone to maybe be impacted (financially and negatively) but it is OK to be abusive and rile up many, and then to say: ‘enough, be quiet, I have the right to state my opinion’ when these negative energies are reflected back rather than absorbed. Rights come with responsibilities.
I think that the potential for positive impact by sharing tool-making ideas far outweighs the negative. How many glass bead makers could benefit? Would these jerry-riggers eventually increase Jim Moore’s profits by ordering his different sized flaring heads? Might he learn of another U.S. based or Australian manufacturer as a source for his arbor presses?
Why the repeated assumption that we are cheap, rather than resourceful, when we try to use what we have and move toward less consumption? My quality, used (up-cycled) arbor press was made in the U.S., not China with its record of abysmal human rights and environmental degradation.
Now where can I find a pair of those asbestos panties?
Gila
theglasszone
2008-07-22, 6:51pm
...Now where can I find a pair of those asbestos panties?
Gila
So well said, Gila~I think I love you~~~~ :kiss: And I have a spare pair, but I suspect you don't need them!!!
Hugs,
DeAnne
angelinabeadalina
2008-07-22, 7:09pm
I’m here again to address the importance of tone and sharing.
The positive, motivated communication in this thread was ruptured by an aggressive, condescending attack. This was not a respectful difference of opinion. The allusion to theft, questioning of morals and judgment, assumption of greed...in public. This sets one up for a face-saving altercation (knock-down drag-out) or withdrawal with silence being akin to agreement.
I was, and remain troubled by the tone (TONE!?!?), and the message: It is NOT OK to share ideas when there is the potential for someone to maybe be impacted (financially and negatively) but it is OK to be abusive and rile up many, and then to say: ‘enough, be quiet, I have the right to state my opinion’ when these negative energies are reflected back rather than absorbed. Rights come with responsibilities.
Exactly.
I think that the potential for positive impact by sharing tool-making ideas far outweighs the negative. How many glass bead makers could benefit? Would these jerry-riggers eventually increase Jim Moore’s profits by ordering his different sized flaring heads? Might he learn of another U.S. based or Australian manufacturer as a source for his arbor presses?
Why the repeated assumption that we are cheap, rather than resourceful, when we try to use what we have and move toward less consumption? My quality, used (up-cycled) arbor press was made in the U.S., not China with its record of abysmal human rights and environmental degradation.
Very good point.
Now where can I find a pair of those asbestos panties?
Gila
:lol:Not a clue where ya can find asbestos panties, but I don't think ya have a need for them...your points were made in a nice manner and added something to the discussion. Besides, I'll bet those suckers would be awfully darn itchy!
pittypat
2008-07-22, 7:16pm
Gila, where did you find an arbor press made in the US? I would like to find one. I was really upset to find China on the side of mine.
Thanks, pat
Well, nevermind!!! I couldn't stand it...bought Dave's...will have to garage sale what I have later...thanks anyway.
Kalera
2008-07-22, 10:49pm
There actually was a lot of controversy over the brass tools, but threads discussing it on the predominant forum at the time were quickly locked or hidden. We are fortunate that is not the case here.
Pam, if Jim Moore had created the arbor press, or even a significant portion of the bead tool, then I could see the analogy of your example. Jim has chosen to fine tune a tool that is available in the open market. That he choose to modify an arbor press that did not come with dies, and a drilled shank, does not mean there are not arbor presses already on the market that do essentially the same thing, granted, not as elegantly.
My aggravation about all this is that people like Andrew, who made a tool nothing like JM, gets whacked because anything that resembles another method of core lining is *gasp* taking away from JM. The argument can be made that JM copied an existing arbor press concept by Palmgren http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051-2-Ton-Manual-Arbor/dp/B00068U7QS . Just because something exists in the context of the glass world, does not make it an unique design.
As someone recently said, where is/was all the hoopla when the brass tools began to be knocked off? It seems protectionism leans toward favorites and is not an overall practice.
bgurden
2008-07-22, 11:43pm
copying inadvertantly happens all the time. you just dont realize it. took a class with leah fairbanks at bead and button. in the class she states that she is very careful when she is looking at others beads on etsy, ebay whereever. she finds that she tends encorporate what she sees into her beads. since she is so wellknown that would be noted immediately. she said that when she went to hawaii when she came back all her beads had a hawaiian influence.
shelly d- i appreciate your frustration with the topic but can ya be a bit less patronizing. "give it up already" "PLEEEZE" "will people grow up" is just plain rude! as my momma said if ya cant say something nicely dont say it at all!
ShellyD
2008-07-23, 1:18am
copying inadvertantly happens all the time. you just dont realize it. took a class with leah fairbanks at bead and button. in the class she states that she is very careful when she is looking at others beads on etsy, ebay whereever. she finds that she tends encorporate what she sees into her beads. since she is so wellknown that would be noted immediately. she said that when she went to hawaii when she came back all her beads had a hawaiian influence.
shelly d- i appreciate your frustration with the topic but can ya be a bit less patronizing. "give it up already" "PLEEEZE" "will people grow up" is just plain rude! as my momma said if ya cant say something nicely dont say it at all!
Hi there,
Well I had taken my own advise and "given it up already" until you felt the need to drag me all the way back in. #-o
I stand by what I say in that I honestly believe one cannot copy inadvertantly. To copy there has to be intent and to be inadvertant would mean the act is unintentional and it just doesn't sit well with me. Yes, we can be influenced. And glancing through photo's/pictures or even taking a holiday is going to influence your artwork to a degree. But for me copying is done very intentionally by whomever is doing it to achieve financial gain or whatever they hope to gain out of it. That person would have to sit with that item in front of them whether it is the original or a picture or photo of it and copy it.
1. Copy noun 1. a thing made to look like another. 2. something written or typed out again from it's original form. 3. one of a number of specimens of the same book or newspaper etc. *five copies of the novel
2. Copy verb (copied, copying) 1. make a copy of something. 2. do the same as someone else; imitate.
Inadvertant adjective unintentional
Intentional adjective intended; deliberate, not accidental.
This has all been copied from the South African Oxford School Dictionary. It's all I have around at the moment.
I have taken a class with Leah Fairbanks myself. I really enjoyed it alot. Her work has influenced mine alot. Especially the thought that I now put into making stringers etc.
Yes I am tired of this topic because each of us has our own opinions about just what copying is and where to draw the line on it. Copying inadvertantly gives those who do it deliberately an excuse/an escape goat. Now they can say they did it inadvertantly. And I am sorry. Copying is copying and it is done deliberately.
Andrew was attacked deliberately and accused of deliberately copying another tool. Many have agreed that this is not the case. How he happened upon a similar solution is not copying inadvertantly either but coincedance. His trying to help others on a public board landed him in hot water with the copy police - who before typing never sit back and think about it for a while but jump in and mouth off. They quite happily without thinking about it attack someone elses integrity and character without thinking of the consequences of what they are doing.
These 'copy' threads are not doing this artform any good. The more 'wolf' is cried the less people are going to actually care when it does genuinely happen.
This post is not meant to be patronising or sarcastic in any manner but to reiterate my opinion on what I think about 'copying inadvertantly'.
Something I need to add.
I'd like to think that the zillions of encased flowers seen in the gallery regularly have been influenced by others and not copied inadvertantly. Once again - just my opinion.
As for the "PLEEEZE" that's me on my knees begging not being patronising as you suggest.
As for the " will people grow up" : As adults we know the consequences of our actions. Can we stop acting like children and behave like adults and think about the consequences our words and actions have on those on these boards.
I'm finished with this - I've had my say. Now I can only pray that I take my own advise and stay out of this once and for all.
Ginko, perhaps you missed this line in my post, "I think his apparatus is nothing like JM's tool and doesn't compete with his at all." Of course that's just my opinion and since I own neither and am interested in owning neither, so my opinion is worth nothing.
I did not miss that, which is why I am confused. If you realize Andrew's tool is nothing like JM's, and that the criticisms toward Andrew is the basis of this thread, why did you choose to post in this thread with what to me appears to be praise and encouragement of the ones attacking Andrew?
The point of my story, which in no way relates to this specific event, is, I do find it admirable that at least beadmakers are beginning to look at our vendors and say something when they believe they are being wronged.
Your mileage may vary, but I for one, have never seen the lampwork community hold back when they think they are wronged.
Whether the persons speaking up are right or wrong is irrelevant to what I am talking about.
I think when someone acts in the manner you describe it hurts both. Negative attack ads work in politics exactly in this manner--the truth is never enough to completely erase the negativity. If truth in the accusation is not an important factor, we would not have slander and libel laws. Many of the comments lately have not been exploratory, moreso, they have been accusations.
We as beadmakers in a very close community need to start supporting those who are bringing us quality materials to use that we have never had before and stop flocking to the cheapest thing we can find, which only spurs those who build cheaply, as in Gentleman B in my story. We certainly don't want our customers looking to buy as cheaply as possible, or else they would be supporting the factories instead of us as artists. We want them to see the quality of our work and admire the innovation and ingenuity and hard work and artistic spirit that goes into our work, just as we should do to those who make tools for us.
A quality, well-priced tool can hold up in this market with competition. Take the infinite rim molds made by Dan, for example. This community already supports a large number of those bringing us quality materials. That should not mean lower priced materials should not exist for those who cannot buy the high-priced quality tools. Back to the marble mold example, a cheap tool is available, as is a pretty-good tool, and the quality DG inifinite rim tool can be purchased. I fail to see the problem with that. A serious marble maker, or even beadmaker with a need for a mold, would buy the infinite rim tool, but they may have started out with an inexpensive mold just to see if they want to make shiny round objects. Should only those who purchase the DG infinite rim mold be allowed to make marbles?
I guess I am confused as to whether you are supporting the criticism of anyone who wants to discuss alternate ways to flare and flatten silver tubing in the bead hole by praising those in this thread, or if you are dropping your comments into this thread out of context.
I'm sorry I am not being clearer, Ginko. What I have seen for many years is everyone hopping on the bandwagon for anything that comes out at a cheaper price regardless of quality, for instance the kiln I was speaking of. I am glad to see that people are now considering the effect on vendors of these items when they FEEL someone has copied and is taking away from the original designer. As I said before, and the reason I didn't come to this thread in the middle of the heated debate portion, is this has nothing to do with this particular incident as I personally believe that there should be the "do it yourself" alternatives, such as is in kilns, controllers, presses and now the bead coring tool.
As to why I posted at all, I think it is sometimes important to attempt to take a thread to a level where it is not personal attacks, but rather discusses ideas. I have found that sometimes when you take it away from the personal it is easier on everyone, but of course there are times when people are not willing to discuss a subject in that way, and I guess this is one of those times. Since I was not supporting "criticism of anyone who wants to discuss alternate ways to flare and flatten silver tubing in the bead hole", then according to your post, I must have just dropped my comments into this thread out of context. Sorry to have annoyed you by attempting to bring the thread to a level where issues are discussed without it being personal, for one person or against another.
As far as whether I praise the person who "attacked" Andrew, I praise the fact that she had the strength of character to stand up for something she believed in. I also praise Andrew for coming up with a do-it-yourself way of doing something, and sharing it, that can be horribly expensive if you just want to try it out for yourself. I think we have all learned something from this thread, and I hope it's not that we can never speak up about what we feel is a wrong-doing, even if later we are proved to be wrong. I think it's important in this community to feel free to express opinions, I just wish things could be discussed where it was not made into something personal each time.
Again, I truly apologize for obviously annoying you with my posts.
Andrew was attacked deliberately and accused of deliberately copying another tool. His trying to help others on a public board landed him in hot water with the copy police - who before typing never sit back and think about it for a while but jump in and mouth off. They quite happily without thinking about it attack someone elses integrity and character without thinking of the consequences of what they are doing.
Well said.
Jack
Ginko - I agree with you 100%.
I also have to question why anyone would assume to think that this sort adaptation/conversion to a standard arbor press has not been done before, for application in the engineering industry - it has, with stainless dies machined to precisely flare diameters from minute to quite huge for years.
The only difference is that it was not done with the sole intention of marketing it as a bead liner tool.
When I approached & asked my cousin, who is a highly skilled machine engineer, last year what he could make for me to line beads the first thing he pointed me too was an arbor press & flaring dies, without having ever seen Jim Moores tool.
I had no idea what he was talking about, as he'd also suggested a few other types of presses as options at the time.
He told me where to go to buy an arbor press, I provided him with a bead & some copper tubing & we went from there.
I know I have a tool that isn't in anyway inferior in quality to Jim Moores - nor is it copied from his, yet it looks almost identical with only a couple of minor asthetic differences & hopefuly more versatility in the long run - as I am having some doming dies made for it.
If a small nipple is left on the end of the flaring dies - it makes for far easier hands free centering & for some reason seems to help the tubing to flare evenly & easily.... feel free to take that idea & run with it, it was something we learned while fiddling around to get the degree of the flare perfected ;)
Innovation is often born of necessity & frequently leads to improvement.
Exactly. There is a big difference between out and out copying and innovating. At least to me there is!!
Paula
DarleenMB
2008-07-24, 9:22am
I
am
so
sick
of
the
whole
"copying"
bs.
let it die. please.
Rose Leslie
2008-07-24, 4:39pm
I'm taking a little offence to this bashing. I can't afford the higher priced tools. So I don't think that is a big let down to any other tools. If I can afford a tool that is quality, that is hand made, then it is the only way to go.
Just because you send XXX amount of dollars for a tool doesn't mean it is of the highest quality. You might think so. I don't think so. I have had tools.
Stop bashing one person. Bash some one else. Geesh! Give people a break. I for one will support the underdog. Any day. Because there are people on here that think that the bigger the better is the best.
Karma is one heck of a pain in the backside when it hits. So every one watch out for it. One of these days the ole Karma will hit.
Just my honest opinion.
Now off to your corners please.
RaymondMillbrae
2008-07-27, 10:01am
Oh my gosh...this is hilarious!!!!
As some of you may know, I am pretty new to lampworking. Actually, my DWP is the lampworker, and I am only her side kick. (Bat-Man needs Robin, Heckel needs Jeckel, Yogi Bear needs Boo-Boo, Bonnie needs Clyde, and DWP needs Papacito).
Anyhoo...being the "Inspector Gadget/McGiver" that I am (with a background in wood working, metal working, leathercrafting, welding, gunsmithing, etc)...I was already discussing with my DWP about the various lampworking tools on the market...and how to improve them, or build them cheaper. And "Lo and Behold"...look at the thread I came across.
Ha ha ha ha ha!!!
Oh my gosh...and to think I was contemplating posting photo's of my jerry-rigged tube press (arbor press and flaring set-up)...or of my personal "ghetto version" of the mandrel spinner...or of my home-made Lazy Susan mandrel/tool holder...or of my "shocky glass, fire-proof, book holder", etc.
Oh my gosh.
If I had not come across this thread, I would have been crucified without a trial!!!!!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
I guess it struck me as funny because when I came across this thread, I was actually in the process of posting my ideas and "short cuts" on this forum to save folks a few shekels. (I had already taken pictures and was filing them in a chronological manner which would make them understandable and easy to follow).
But as Roberto Duran said when fighting Sugar Ray Leonard, "No Mas. No Mas! (http://espn.go.com/classic/s/add_leonard_sugar_ray.html)"!!
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Let me jump in the middle of this "spat" and voice my opinion on this matter.(Ahhhhhhhh, man. I hope I'm not opening-up a can of worms).
As Americans, we have the right to voice our opinions and publically share our ideas. And if we come up with a "better mouse trap"...then that's the American way. We are a CAPITALIST SOCIETY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism), and as such, we differ from any other country in this world. (Where else in this world can you come into a country, be broke, not know a speck of the native language, and become a millionaire overnight)?
Only in America, my friends!
Our great/awesome Constitution provides us with a liberty that no other country has. And as "progressives" love to say, "Don't you dare censor my speech, and don't you dare censor my ideas"!! (No, I am not a "liberal". I am actually the opposite).
As a matter of fact, I once heard a Web-Meister called, "A Forum Nazi," for censoring someones opinions/ideas.
Anyhoo...along those lines, if JM does not have a very specific legal patent on his press...the sky's the limit. It's open season on "mouse traps". And believe you me (from a legal standpoint), if his patent was being copied, there would be heads a'rolling all over the place!
Like some folks stated, the arbor press and flaring tools are NOT a new invention. They have been around for years. And if there are folks walking around who have any type of mechanical inclination (like "moi"), then the connection is bound to happen...and new, cheaper toys, are inevitably gonna pop-up.
That's how I came up with the arbor press idea, even before I saw his tool or read this thread. I saw that folks were inserting silver and copper tubes in a bead and flaring the top, and said to myself, "Duh!! I can do that". (As a matter of fact, look at a GROMMET KIT (http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-2-Inch-Grommet-1260-4/dp/B00004T7VZ) and see where your mind will take you).
We think we are robbing people of their just due...but we're not. We are just following the natural progression of "the better mouse trap". Or like the Chinese exporters say, "It's a free trade world. You American's wanted it. You Americans voted for it. So now we are within our legal limits to create and provide it". (Sometimes our freedoms can be used against us).
Anyhoo...love it or hate it...it's just the way it is. If there's a need, and there's a cheaper way to get it, then Americans will be all over it in a heartbeat. (Everyone cries about Wal-Mart, Home Depot, or the huge super market nudging-out the "little guys". But yet, when no one is looking, we're the first ones sneaking in through the rear doors to get the best deals in town).
Let me share a conversation I had with my uncle...
Uncle: Are we not a capitalist society (free enterprise), where we can make millions of dollars and no one can force us to do what we don't want to do?
Me: Uh Huh.
Uncle: And because of that, don't we have the right to do what we want with our monies and business?
Me: Uh huh. (Yes...I am also aware that we can reel-in large companies, like MicroSoft, from dominating the market).
Uncle: And if I build a ga-bazillion dollar company, and choose to take it to India to further increase my profit...why not? It's my right.
Me: You are correct. That is America. And that is the way we work.
Uncle: So what is wrong with that?
He was right. I could not argue with him. That is the American way. We have that freedom, and there should be no restrictions...ever!!
But from a different point of view, in my personal way of thinking, we should have a loyalty to our country. We should try to keep the wheels spinning from within, even if it would be a detriment to our million dollar business. ("Why outsource to another country for cheaper labor, when it will cost a bit more to do it here, but it will benefit our own country")? Those were my personal thoughts. But in the end he was right. This is America, and he has every right to outsource to any 3rd world country if he so chooses. (Even if I adamantly opposed it, and thought it was totally unpatriotic to do so).
And along those lines, there are things which we think are morally wrong...but ultimately, they are not legally wrong.
The catch word is "legally"!!
And in this case (with the bead press), I do not think that any patent was infringed upon.
Yea...JM has fine-tuned and fashioned these tools specifically for the lampworking community. Yea...JM has brought the level of this tool to it's lampworking "Nth Degree". But as is the natural progression of mechanical minds, there will always be someone who can find a shortcut to make it cheaper...or better.
That is the human factor.
Furthermore, even if you post a detailed, step-by-step instruction on the web...not everyone is mechanically inclined to build it. Does everyone have access to a lathe, a drill press, woodworking tools, metal working tools, tap & die sets, metal parts, etc...?
What is a "No problemo" to me, will be a "Fogitabowdit/Doneventhinkabowdit" to someone else.
In the end, JM's tools and standards appeal to a certain market. And, of course, "jerry-rigging" appeals to another type of folk. (Don't you think a "jerry-rigger" looks at an original tool and thinks to himself..."Hey, I can make something like that...even better...and for cheaper")?!
OK...I'm coming to a close now. So let me be transparent with yall. Some of the tools I've designed, I've never seen before. I just came up with the ideas after seeing a need for them. (It's the McGiver in me). But some of the tools I've looked at, and thought to myself, "I can make that myself". (Yes...I took an original idea and ran with it).
So "Yea"...personally, I have taken ideas, tweeked them, and made them my own. But it's always been for my personal use, and NEVER exactly like the original. (Patents are VERY SPECIFIC. Even going into details about the type of materials used, the thickness of the materials used, the exact placement of screws, the exact cut and dimensions of the parts, etc...). I've also never sold them to anyone!
So if I were to place photo's of my "jerry rigs" on a forum, would I be wrong? Would I be stealing someone elses thunder? Would I be taking money out of their pocket?
No one really knows.
As an example, look at this thread. Some folks have purchased JM's tools, regardless of the instructions posted earlier. And then again, some folks are willing to throw caution to the wind and "go for it". (Try to make their own press). Who's to say that someone changed their mind and DID NOT purchase it from JM after coming across the online instructions and seeing how easy it was to build? Who's to say that the ones who were NOT going to purchase it from JM, would now be more inclined to purchase it from him after seeing this post, and seeing all the work and precision needed to build the press? (Not everyone has $60.00 to purchase materials and TRY to make a gadget...with no guarantee that it will ultimately work).
No one really knows. Your guess/speculation is as good as mine.
And in closing, I gotta admit, I love the way Pam thinks. I've read a couple of her other posts, and I admire her train of thought. (There are other folks who've impressed me as well, but she's on the top of my mind at this moment).
So, Pam...
...umm...
..."You go girl"!!
Ha ha ha ha ha!
This has been a cool thread. I'm glad I came across it, and chose to take the time (and effort) to read most of the posts.
Toodle-Loo, folks.
And don't forget to pray for our troops.
In Christ: Raymond
ShellyD
2008-07-27, 10:42am
Raymond, cool post.
The lazy susan tool holder caught my eye. My tools alway end up AWOL on my work area. Think you're sitting on a gold mine there. I know I would love one [-o<
Later
RaymondMillbrae
2008-07-27, 4:31pm
Shelly,
there is already a woman here on this forum, who's hubby makes them. (Sorry, can't recall her name or avitar).
Anyways...there are many different routes you can take. You can make a custom wood one with strategically placed magnets (like I did), or you can go "ghetto" and just use a nice flower pot that matches your "decor".
All you really need is something called a "Lazy Susan Swivel" (they're dirt cheap), and you can go from there. Use your own imagination. Click HERE (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2273&cs=1) to see one source. (Low profile ones are better).
So get yourself a Lazy Susan Swivel, a nice ceramic pot to match your decor...and go for it.
Oh, oh, oh.
Wait a minute.
Don't do that!!!
Do you think by using these two common materials we'd be infringing on someone else's idea, and robbing them of their fair dues?
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Food for thought.
In Christ: Raymond
PS: I've decided against posting any of my ideas on this forum - even after being convinced that it is OK.
(If I have a clear concience before God about doing something, but yet someone else may disagree and stumble by me doing so, then I must not be the cause of that person stumbling...even though I am convinced that it is OK). Did you follow that?
So for all the folks that sent me personal PM's...sorry. I've chosen not to post my photos or ideas here. I'm finding out that no matter where you go, or what you say, someone will always oppose you. (It's already happened on another thread in this website). No matter what you say, or how you explain it - when someone's mind is made up...it's made up. After a while you gotta tell yourself, "Why am I expending energy talking to a wall"?
Nuff said. Thanks for your ears!
ShellyD
2008-07-27, 10:33pm
Thanks for all the great tips.
It sad that you feel you cannot share your ideas/pics. But understand entirely.
It will be an even sadder day when all the sharing stops completely - it is sad that lampworking is coming to this. There are some great ideas out there.
ttfn
theglasszone
2008-07-27, 11:45pm
Shelly, there is already a woman here on this forum, who's hubby makes them. (Sorry, can't recall her name or avitar).
Raymond and Shelly~~~
That lovely woman, who herself is her avatar, is Melissa - Melzip here on LE...Here's her fab tool storage link:
http://abeadisborn.com/catalog.php?category=2
Myself? I went to Big Lots, bought a Food Storage Kit that came with a "sectioned" lazy susan, replaced some of the storage containers with cheap glasses (also from Big Lots, less than a buck each!) and viola, storage for my tools and stringers - I think the whole thing cost me about $12.00.
Gotta say, though - Mel's gorgeous, hand made tool caddy and press cradle are unbeatable in quality for sure! I know, I've owned them!
And if anyone cares to engage me for sharing my tips, bring it!!! Just be sure you don't come to a battle of wits unarmed!!! :)
~De in CA
ChristinaColligan
2008-07-30, 8:02am
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