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Hot Head Torch & Bulk Fuel
FUEL/AIR Torches (Hot Head - Quiet Torch/Fireworks) - Gases – Tanks - Regulators
By Dale Meisenheimer A compilation of information from the internet and written sources. DISCALIMER: The use of a extension hose and bulk tanks is not a use that was ever considered when the Hot Head type torch was designed. Adding the bulk tank of fuel, and a long extension hose is something that has “grown out of necessity”. The necessity of having torch inside and fuel tank outside. Understand that doing this is a “gray area” in fire prevention regulation and you do so at your own risk. I believe this process is inherently safe but does not conform to NFPA rule if you follow the literal interpretation of NFPA writings. GASES. Names for brazing/cutting fuels are: MAPP - Registered brand name of Air Reduction Company. Propylene – Common product name FlameX, - FlameX Industries, Inc., St. Petersburg, Fla. (The additive is shippable by UPS with extra hazardous shipping cost.) http://www.flamex.com/ Chemtane2 - JALAPA GAS & CHEMICAL CORPORATION (A proprietary mix of Chemtane2 and propane) http://www.chemtane2.com/home.html Chemolene Or Chem-O-Lene, while not really a fuel, it is a hydrocarbon additive (process) to enhance the heat properties of propane. PCG (Pure Cutting Gas). [can not find origin for this product] FG-2 - Brand name of Praxair (propylene) http://www.praxair.com/ HPG - High Performance Gas (propylene) http://www.awesco.com/sections/weld...Topics/WC2.html Agfuel – the AirGas brand name for Propylene FlameAll – Air Liquid’s brand name Profuel – used by a variety of independent welding and gas suppliers HPBF – High purity Brazing Fuel Regardless of what it is called, you want a brazing /cutting fuel that burns at about 3600 degrees According to MSDS these fuels are a mixture of, or may contain any of the following: Methylacetylene-propadiene (MAPP gas) Propylene Propane n-Butane isobutane 1,3 Butadiene Chemtane-2 (less than 1% and propane) May also contains ethyl mercaptan. As a odorant for leak detection ( "garlic oil" may be only a rumor). Tank pressure according to MSDS may range from 97 psi to 157 psi at 70 Deg F. Depending on what actual fuel you are using. Check material data safety sheets for the gas product you intend to use for specific safety and handling instructions. http://www.boc.com/gases/msds_us/index_msds_us.cfm Recommend one does a search of web sites for MSDS as some sites don't cover all types of gases. Check with "welding gas" suppliers or "industrial gas" suppliers to find the above mentioned gasses. TANKS! Bulk tanks come in all sizes. You can either "buy" a tank or rent/lease it. Some common references to tanks are like a #10 pounder….. Which really means the tank holds 10 pounds of fuel. My 10 pounder is actually 16.5 pounds empty and 26.5 pounds full. It measures about 8 inched in diameter and is 21 inches tall. In contrast a aluminum 7 pounder weights about 8 pounds empty and about 16 pounds full. For another example tanks may come in 30 pound size, this is most likely 30 pounds of gas and the tank probably weighs 25 to 33 pounds itself. Check the empty weight and the full weight on the cylinder to know what terminology you are dealing with. The terminology (not capacity) varies from area to area and distributor to distributor. Yes cylinders vary for size and weight. It's all stamped on cylinders. Also who manufactured the cylinders and the date it was made, and dates that it was last inspected. Also cylinders with brazing fuels (MAPP/Propylene) may be painted yellow (if not plain aluminum color). Its been mentioned on several web sites that one can just go to Home Depot or Lowe's or where ever and just buy a tank and take it to gas supplier and get it filled. BE WARNED ... Not all gas suppliers will fill a tank you bring in off the street. EVEN if it is brand new. It has to do with product liabilities and laws governing containers and suppliers responsibilities, so check with supplier before you just bring in tank to get it filled. Gas suppliers usually will sell you a tank properly labeled for the type of gas that it contains. It is also usually customary to exchange tanks because not all suppliers have facilities to actually fill tank on site, but usually have a number of full tanks available for exchange. Almost all gas suppliers will NOT fill a propane tank (they have to have new OLD overfill valve anyway) with "brazing fuel" because they do not what the chance mixing of fuel types. MAPP/Propylene tanks are exempt from the new overfill valve law, because its usually a "gas technician" filling the tanks and not the "gofer" at local gas station or boat yard. Open the tank valve all the way when you use it. If you partially open the valve you might get freezing in the line as the gas expands through the hose. Also most valves are designed with a seal around valve shaft so it will not leak when full open. Bulk tanks "may" be also sold back to gas distributor when no longer needed (at a discount). A reference source for tank information (flammable gasses and high pressure oxygen) is: http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/index.html HOSES A hose rated for propane is acceptable for use with MAPP or other brazing fuels. Hoses will usually have rating printed or embossed on hose. A grade or type "T" is what is required for propane use. Hose may also have "LP Gas Approved" or similar statement embossed or printed on hose. Hoses stamped "RM" are acetylene rated only hoses. Hose should come from a "manufactured" source that makes them to industry standards, not something you kludged together in your work shop with parts of dubious quality and source. Manufactured hoses may be ordered from reputable glass suppliers or found at local camping and hardware stores. Places like Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, Wal-Mart, local hardware stores , sporting goods, and propane dealers and recreational vehicle dealers may also have them. These hose types are common to camping activities and BBQ equipment. Brand names that come to mind are Coleman and Mr. Heater. Typical hose will be from 5 to 12 feet long (or more). Have a female 1x20 inch "disposable bottle" connection on one end (for torch) and have a P.O.L. fitting on the other end (tank). Hoses may also have a 1x20 inch disposable cylinder, female fitting on one end and a 1x20 inch disposable cylinder male fitting on the other end. This would allow one to use torch on small disposable bottles and allowing bottle to be placed on floor or out of way. A 1x20 inch disposable cylinder, female fitting to P.O.L. adapter is available so this hose type can also be used with bulk tanks (P.O.L. valve. Actual valve nomenclature for P.O.L. fitting is CGA 510-.885" – 14 NGO-LH-INT A hose is also available with the 1x20 inch disposable cylinder, female fitting on one end and a 1/4 inch pipe thread fitting on the other end (suitable for adapting to regulators or other plumbing situations). REGULATORS. First off let me say "A regulator is not required with a Hot Head or a Quiet Torch/Fireworks torch" If you desire to use one, or are forced to buy one by a gas distributor, you need one that will have a high side (tank) gauge that will measure from 0 to 300psi minimum. Have a regulated out pressure between 60-to 100 psi average. YES!…… Again Hot Head and Quiet torch/Fireworks is designed to run at tank pressure (97 psi for MAPP) . If you do not have these pressure its doubtful whether then Hot Head or Quiet Torch/Fireworks will function properly. You will also have to adapt whatever the threaded fitting on the regulator is to the appropriate hose with what ever adapters that are necessary. Cindy Jenkins, the author of the book "Glass Bead Making" also states that and regulator is not needed or required for the Hot Head to Operate Properly. The people who design (engineers) and manufacturer the Hot Head state a regulator is not required. As a side note: There are cases where people using a regulator have solved some of their problems by placing a regulator in their systems. BUT these are exceptions, they not the norm. GUNK The oily goo/gunk in the hose that may cause spitting and sputtering is rumored to be garlic oil, but most like is ethyl mercaptan, that gives the gas an odor for leak detection. Disconnect hose from torch and tank and hang them over something with connectors down and drain your hoses to rid them of the oil. Maybe once per week or so for general principles. Put a pan or something under hose ends to catch oils. Gunk or Goo shouldn't be a problem if you exchange tanks each time but if there is a problem with a particular tank take the tank back to the supplier and demand a "clean" one. If you own the tank, have the gas supplier purge it for you. SAFETY and STORAGE Having and using the bulk refillable tanks IN YOUR HOME is NOT ALLOWED by NFPA codes, and is most likely prohibited in most areas of United States. Check local codes and ordnances to see if storage of a bulk container is permissible in your local. Fuel tanks should be outside at all times. It's quite possible during a fire or catastrophic event that your insurance may be voided if investigation finds a bulk fuel container illegally stored inside your premises. An outside storage area is the only place for the big tanks. Some people secure their tanks in a homemade box just outside a window or door. That prevents a propane/MAPP/propylene tank stored outside from being tampered with while still allowing easy access so you can attach your hose and run the hose indoors to make beads! Always provide ventilation at bottom of storage locker to prevent gas pooling. Always bleed (or burn off ) the fuel from your hose before shutting the torch down for the day and disconnecting hose! FOOTNOTE(s) When using Hot Head or Quiet Torch on a hose, you will need to have some sort of bracket to support HH to work surface and you will no longer have the tank to use as a mode of securing the torch. Yes if all else fails you can use propane with a Hot Head or Quiet Torch/Fireworks. Keep Fire extinguisher available at all times and keep it accessible. NOTE: This document is copyright © 2002-2005 by Dale Meisenheimer. This document may not be reproduced on any other website or forum without express written permission by the author. Revision 6-22-2005 |
thank you so much for the info Dale!!
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Dale - thanks for the info, I truly appreciate it. I also want to note that on your "if all else fails you can use propane"? Most (99%) of my beads are made with bulk propane on a HH. I realize this is the exception more than the rule, but don't underestimate it. ;)
Nikki |
Norma's dumb question of the day:
Is the gas I heat my house with the same propane that can be used with a hothead? If so, could I tap into those tanks and have a line run to where my torch will be set up? Norma |
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Yes, but. The household line is running at about 1/3 PSI. You need full tank pressure, about 100 PSI to run a hothead.
I'm assuming you have an outside tank in the 500 gallon range, correct? You will have to contact your propane distributor and ask them to "tee" off the high pressure line coming out of the tank and bring a high pressure line to the outside of the house. At that point, install a valve and a high pressure fitting. Use high pressure rated fuel gas lines to bring the fuel in through a window or door. High pressure fuel gas cannot, absolutely cannot, be penetrated through a wall. In most cases, your local propane company is going to refuse to do this, citing safety reasons. They usually WILL do it if you switch to a fuel gas/oxygen torch which runs at 3-7 PSI, which can legally and safely penetrate a wall. |
I had been under the impression that even having high-pressure *hoses* running indoors was pushing your luck. Is it really "inherently safe" to have 100 psi of gas pressure running through a T-rated hose inside your house? Does this affect insurance? I'd be very interested in hearing this addressed. Thanks for sharing your information!
Sincerely, Heather |
Hose safety and regulations
( Moving this info discussion here from the "Hothead Mount" thread in the Tips and Techniques forum: http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9204 )
Thanks Dale. :) That's exactly the info I was looking for! I have two more questions - not trying to be a pest but wanting to be able to answer my student's safety questions intelligently. Thank you for your patience!! Does this mean that HH bulk tank users who want to torch in their homes can ONLY run their hoses into the house temporarily, through a door or window, disconnecting and storing the hose afterwards? Or can they run the hose permanently using just one small piece of metal pipe, the same way a propane and gas torch user would/should, like in the pictures on this link (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155667 post 10) but without the regulator (Would this be considered "plumbing"?) Also, for HH bulk tank users who use the temporary, through-a-window approach - what should they do to ensure that they can turn off the propane quickly if the hose does fail? Is there a way to install an off-valve where the hose enters the house, or is the only option running outside to the tank? Thanks once again! :wave: Sincerely, Heather Quote:
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The propane supply in pictures is only legal by NFPA standard if propane pressure entering residence is at 20 psi or less. Dale |
Thanks Dale! That's what I suspected but I wanted to be sure. I've edited my past post to replace the pictures with a link so that future readers aren't confused. You've been really patient and detailed and I truly appreciate it. Thanks for everything you do on the forums - you're a very valuable resource!
Sincerely, -Heather |
Hose safety and regulators
Hi! We're using a Hot Head torch and just got a 30 pound bulk tank of MAPP. I know everyone here says that you don't need a regulator since the torch operates at 97-100 psi.
Per our gas supplier, he says that the pressure in the tank is around 250 psi for what we got. I've talked to several people that tell me it's OK but my gut tells me to double check since the pressure is 1.5 times over what the Hot Head expects. Plus he made the hose (reputable gas / welding supplier to local factory's in town) but are they rated to run at up to 250 psi? I just need to hear this one more time. PS The hose is graded type "T" but it's rated working pressure is 200 psi. I'm curious now to see what the "real" pressure in the tank is. |
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MSDS from any reputable Gas supplier will confirm this... Google search turned up this: http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...SCGWQKA4QHQJCK You might want to print out MSDS and drop it by to your gas supplier... I have found that a lot of them just go by what others in shop have told them... Not many have ever researched or been taught the correct information... In a lot of cases you have to know more about subject that the gas monkey behind counter. Any hose that is type "T" (Propane/LPG rated) should be good for MAPP gas, any hose rated at 200psi should be sufficient unless you come under a extreme condition where tank pressure exceeded hose rating and I don't think you will want to be there to witness it. Dale |
Thank you!
Excellent! Thank you very much. They don't have MSDS sheets in house and said that it will be mailed to us.
This confirms that it's totally safe to proceed with the evidence in hand. I wonder if he was thinking what the tank is rated for instead of the gas pressure inside the tank? |
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Dale |
We tried to buy a 20# BBQ tank and get it filled with propylene at the only place that actually fills tanks anywhere close to us (meaning about an hour away), but (despite what their company sales guy said on the phone the week before) the company says it won't do it because the pressure on propane is 250 and the pressure on propylene is 260. So, they will only sell us a 30# tank designed for it and the cost is 3 times the cost of a BBQ tank. Sigh.
So we went to 3 other welding suppliers, and the only other one who carries propylene also sells it only in 30# tanks, and while 30% more reasonable in price than the above location, they won't sell it to us if we don't have a pick-up truck to transport it in. SO ARRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!@!#@@# @%?!! Basically a wasted trip. :evil: ](*,) |
You been told sort of an untruth by gas company. Yes tank pressure can be upwards to 250psi but ambient temperatures will be so uncomfortable you will have fled area a long time ago....
Pressure of propylene at 70°f is 151 psi... http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g75.pdf Pressure of propane at 70°f is 124 psi... http://www.fortnet.org/rcvfd/trainin...ane%20msds.pdf Dale |
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Thanks Dale, I was hoping you would be able to shed some light on that, I appreciate the feedback. It's looking like I may have to resort to using propane unless I add purchase of a pick-up truck to my beading expenses... LOL. :lol: |
Propane will be just fine, and at any tank exchange "station" the don't care what vehicle you drive to transport tank...
Dale |
Dale, thank you.
This is a very informative thread. JoAnn ( who thinks she is storing too many 1 pound tanks in basement ) |
Amazing what you can find through the 'search' feature. Thanks Dale!
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I am trying to figure out how to set up my torch with the tank outside. I think I found a good way to do it, I just have to get a longer hose. However, I do have two 5 foot hoses (I had bought a hose and hothead for a friend who never had the money to pick them up). Is there a way to connect these two hoses? A 12 foot hose is so expensive. I was just wondering if I could save some money, still stay safe and connect them.
BTW, I am using Chemtane with a HotHead. |
I could work without a regulator in the winter, but not in the other seasons.
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With all the emphasis on safety around here, I'm kinda surprised this is considered OK. I'm no safety fanatic, probably the opposite, but I'd be very reluctant to run a long flexible hose at tank pressure, indoors, to a torch designed to be screwed onto a 1# tank. Any leak is just that much more serious, and a big cut, burn-through or full disconnect could be a disaster. IMO, when it gets to the point that a 1# tank doesn't cut it, maybe it's time to think about at least a low end oxy-fuel torch, put a regulator directly on the tank and run a much safer 5 PSI or so around the tree stump and in the window. Tanked oxygen or oxycon and you're good to go. Just suggesting it be considered!
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You know its just not a HOT HEAD issue with TANK INSIDE..... Many times you see pictures of studios and the artist is so proud of how the new studio is decorated (its a woman thing - not being derogatory here) ... Nice tiles on the bench top, creative colors on the walls and pictures and curtains and the TV and computer and cat curled up snoozing on rug.... And NOT ONE BIT of VENTILATION visible and a BIG ROUND UGLY PROPANE TANK in under the bench right at their feet with their $500 torch and hoses and regulators..... And if you point this out they get really offended, I know I have been on receiving end of remarks when I have pointed it out.... It's not just a HH issue its any studio and any artist and people who are posting 3,000 time in portions of this site but not once ever looked into "Safety Forum" because it never occurred to them there was a safety issue, lot of times these people take lessons in "Mother Jone's Studio" or some such place and the "professionals " that are teaching the newbie classes are as clueless as the beginners and do not know or are aware of the safety issues in a studio.... They may be self taught, never read a chapter on safety in a glass working book or never visited a website such as this, or if they did never visited or read sections like the "studio" or "safety" and if the did it went right over their heads.... IF you go back and scan a lot message and look for some clues there will read like "in the studio where I learned glass work there was no ventilation other than a open door".... Or maybe "the teacher never mentioned anything about 'safety'" then there is the statement "in studio where I learned the tanks were under the table so I assumed it was ok".... Everything about studio safety is a matter of people deciding at what risk level they are willing to accept as to working in winter in a enclosed garage with tanks inside and no ventilation and risking dieing from carbon monoxide poisoning to people working out doors with long hoses on their tanks so they are not "to close" to them and the get plenty of fresh air..... Then there are the people who decide to set up in their kitchens where unknowing to them they are contamination their food preparation area with glass shards... And I get remarks like "who appointed you the safety police" here when you try to point these issue out to them......I know, I going to receive a few nasty jabs from people about this diatribe, but for years I have been pushing safety on several sites and still there are people who are clueless, do not choose to learn or choose to ignore studio safety... I'm sorry if I offend here but it was a long day in the sun and bunch of snotty people, managed to make only one sale towards end of day and it was over 100 beads and all I got was $35.... At about 35¢ cents a bead it hardly seems like pursuing hot glass and participation here is worth it anymore... >rant off< Dale |
Dale, to make you feel better, I've got 3 windows & a door in a 11x13 area, but I bought a fan yesterday to use in constructing a ventilation system to actually pull the air away from me. Now we just have to figure out how to get the opening where I need it around the other things on my table, box it in & put the "tubing" and DH will wire it up to a switch. So you are making a difference.
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Thank you....
Dale |
I want to make it clear that I am NOT complaining about about the safety stuff AT ALL. I mentioned how little my instructor knew because I am absolutely appalled at how much danger she put us in and then I went right on home and put my family and pets in danger as well. I promise I was not complaining. I am mostly whining about how much more work I need to do about prepping my area. I, for one, absolutely appreciate everything you have shared with me. If I had never come her, I would be torching today, blissfully ignorant..... Until I fainted from carbon monoxide or caused a fire.
I am hopin the rant wasn't because I seemed ungrateful because that is the furthest thing from the truth and I want to apologize if I come off as sarcastic. I am not. I am really really interested in doing this the right way. |
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Again, I'm sorry for the rant, and nobody is at fault about it (really) but me.... Dale |
Dale, I understand your rant entirely, though I can't really tell if you think I'm an idiot or headed in the right direction. Maybe both! Sorry for setting you off in any case. It just seems like one can spend a whole lot of money to avoid buying inexpensive 1# disposables, whereas with some smart shopping it wouldn't take a huge amount more to go the safer low pressure route. We all have our paranoias; mine is leaks due to hose and equipment failure. IMO, there's little question one can run high pressure hoses safely, but it has to be done with frequent inspection for damage and soundness of connections. Heck, at work we run flexible hoses directly off 2000+ PSI nitrogen/hydrogen tanks. My guess is they're expensive hoses, but I still try not to spend much time standing next to them!
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Lets do some math...
One #1 cylinder about $4.00 (price seems to vary a lot by local) ... One 20 pound bulk cylinder (just fuel) $20.... $4 X 20 (pounds) = $80 (cost of fuel by #1 canisters) So actually cost of bulk tank ( "new" tank with fuel at "exchange" depot $50) and hose about $30, first tank and initial cost of hose pays for it self vs #1 cylinders.... Bulk refills (exchange) about $20 for 20 pounds ... Bulk prices out at about $1 a pound thus saving about $3 a pound over #1 cylinders.... There is no cost effectiveness #1 cylinders... What is really so cool is I have a 250 gallon tank next to my house (about 40ft away) and bulk delivered cost me $2.59 a gallon... That works out to about 53¢ a pound (4.8 pounds to a gallon) for my home heating propane... No I DO NOT use it to run my HOTHEAD, but I will probably tap it for my fuel/oxygen torch if I ever get one... Bottom line is #1 cylinder and cost effective is a oxymoron... Dale |
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