protective glasses for boro?..
 

i met someone the other day who works with boro- with regular ACE protective glasses like the one i used for soft glass.

she said she only works with boro, and she was always taught that these protective glasses are suitable, even when she studied in the states.


has any of you ever heard about that before?..

Eeeek, no! That seems like it would be stunningly unpleasant, to say the least. Unless she only works with clear, which would probably make them adequate, but far from ideal.

nope. I burned my cornea within the first week. OF course I had torched for 14 hours that night but I bought my boro glasses right away after that. It is incredibly painful.

Talk to the eye Dr. He will tell you. At our shop we always say when working with Boro, Wear boro glasses. You have to protect your eyes for later in life.O:)

what is boro? :|

smiltroy, boro is borosilicate glass, also referred to as "hard" glass. It has a COE of 32-33 and is not compatible with "soft" glass, like Moretti or Vetrofond, for instance. Boro melts at a higher temperature than soft glass, and requires a propane/oxygen torch. A well-known example of boro is the brandname Pyrex.

Some of the boro colors will generate UV light when they are really hot. The lenses used for working with soft glass are not made to block UV. You need both IR and UV protection when worked with boro, especially boro color.

Robert

According to their web site, the Phillips 202 (ACE) lens "is very efficient in filtering sodium flare in addition to providing ultraviolet protection to 390 mm."

So, they are indeed made to block UV.

Malcolm

interesting! what does the "390 mm" refer to? the distance between the object emiting the uv light and the eyes and if it's less than 39 cm then it's too close for the ACE to be able to protect?

39 cm is a lot... i would buy the $20 flip-ups to add to my ACEs... too bad my ACEs are clip-ons that go on my own glasses... i'll be working with a pile of 3 glasses on my nose?!? but regular boro protectvie glasses are ouch-way-too-expensive for me right now...

i also wanted to say- i noticed i wrote in my original post that i "used" the ACEs for soft glas... THAT'S A TYPO! I STILL ONLY WORK SOFT GLASS, HAVE NEVER TOUCHED BORO RODS SO I DIDN'T WORK WITH IMPROPER EYE PROTECTION :D

That will teach me from 'cutting & pasting' without proof reading :|

It's supposed to read "390 nm" , as in nano-meters. That's the wavelength of light, somewhere between the UV and the visible spectrum.

Sorry for the confusion.

Malcolm

I'm not an eye protection expert or anything, but I've always heard that the danger is in IR radiation, not UV.

So what filters the IR?

aaahhh... :)

well, that's where it becomes chinese for me and i have to just trust the ppl who know better than i, rather than try to understand it myself...

i guess it's the kind of things you can explain to me, and i'll understand, but the next day i have no clue about it, you'd have to explain it again...

kind of like teaching me to play backgammon!!! :lol:

IR is the main hazard, but UV light is produced by some of the boro colors when they are really hot. In the eye UV exposure can increase the risk of cataracts, corneal burns, retinal damage. It's not an issue with soft glass or clear boro, just some of the metals used in boro color.

Robert

I don't wear "boro" glasses to work boro. I own some, but rarely use them. I torch in didies over my perscription lenses. Having two sets of lenses does help with the IR. IR sounds all scary and stuff, but in plain english, it's heat. You can feel IR on your skin. As you start to work bigger and hotter, your exposure increases. I'm not sure working smaller is dangerous, no matter what glass you're melting. There is a whole lot of debate on this subject and more real life tests should be done to show what levels of IR and UV we are actually being exposed to. Anything else is really just specualation, no matter what side of the fence you are on. If we care about our eyes, we should really put some energy into getting this worked out, with real life IR and UV testing.

Which colors produce the UV? Does the amount of UV increase with the size of glass being worked, like with IR?



The other thing to remember about IR is that it decreases with distance. So, you have to think about how large the source of it is, as well as how close you are to it. If you are working small boro beads, the IR emmitted for the source would not be as much as if you were working a 2" marble. However, you might be working closer to your work, depending on your working style and the detail going into it. This is where testing would really come in handy.

Yes, more testing should be done - testing is always a good thing. But, in the mean time, when it is simple enough to take protective measures, then why not? What does it hurt to take some extra precautions? It doesn't have to cost a lot of money, either. If all you can afford is a pair of clip-on welders' shades to go over your didymiums (or just welders' shades if you don't even have the didys), then that would certainly be better than nothing.

And think of your comfort, if nothing else. Some of those colors flare up pretty bright. Even though the flare may not be harmful, it can be uncomfortable, especially to people with sensitive eyes. I wore welders' shades over didymiums for a short time and then invested in a pair of boro glasses. It made working more comfortable for me.

I'm certainly not an eye expert, but I don't see the harm in erring on the side of caution, especially when it is reasonable enough to do.

I don't have list of colors and intensities. Light intensity drops off by the inverse square of the distance from the source. Farther away means less intensity, but we're talking about very short distances from the glowing tip of a rod to your eyes. Eye damage from electromagnetic radiation tends to be cumulative, so you can do it until you go blind.

Why not just spend a few $$ to get glasses that are appropriate to the type of glass being used? It's cheaper than a corneal transplant or cataract removal.

Robert

i'm no eye expert myself, but i have to disagree on this- as far as i understand, it's more dangerous to use the clip on w.shades without the didys, than to wear the didys without the shades. don't forget that when you wear something dark your pupils get larger, thus absorbing more radiation.

also- the original question wasn't about money, the person i met only uses her ACEs because that's what she was taught, not because she is trying to save on protective glasses, she was taught that what she needed was a pair of ACEs.

for me, it is a financial matter, but since i've been working soft glass for over 2 years, if i can't afford the proper eye protection i just wait a little with the boro, and nothing bad will happen to me. if a pair of flip ups over my ACE over my prescription glasses won't be too many glasses on my poor nose, than boro it is, and if it's too complicated- the cheapest clip-on boroscopes that i found so far were $139 so unless any of you knows a better source (preferably a vendor who will be at the ISGB gathering :)), i'll just wait with the boro.

again, as i mentionned- the original question wasn't about money, but because i saw a person only work with ACEs because that's how she was taught.

Clip on welder's shade 5 lenses are only $20. Those should be fine for you to use over your didymiums. We have sold many of them, and everyone that bought them is very happy with them. I won't be at the Gathering :( but we ship internationally, and even with international shipping, it will still be way less than $139.

Of course, glasses are one more of those things I haven't had a chance to list yet, so if you want some, PM or e-mail me...

Well, if it is blocking the IR, it is blocking the IR. How wide your pupils are open is moot. If wearing shaded filters endangers the eyes even more, then why are they worn by welders?

I have heard the argument about the "sunglasses effect" before, but it was in regard to gold coated lenses. The theory is that the dark lens causes the pupil to dilate and if there is a scratch in the external coating, it would allow more light to pass through the scratch in the lens and into the eye than normal because of the dilation.

Welders shades are not the same thing as the gold coated lenses.

if they are soooo protective, why do they cost $20 when boroscopes cost at least $140?

i'm not saying that the more expensive the more it protects, but it does seem to be an indication.

if you can get the whole protection for around $140, or use your ACEs and get the little extra protection needed for $20, what i understand from this is that most of the protection you need (really, i don't know about IR, UV, bla bla bla... just want to wear what protects my eyes, that's all) is in the ACEs. so what i understand from that is, that it's more problematic to wear the extra protection without the ACEs than to wear the ACEs without the extra protection.

either that, or there's that big price difference for no apparent reason.

btw- i was first exposed to what you referred to as the "sunglasses effect" when i realized my first "protective" (yeah right) glasses were as craptastic as if i had gotten them inside a kinder egg- our supplier used to sell dark plastic glasses that were reeeaally cheap, and the real thing, so when you inquired about protective glasses you'd be told you can get a pair for $140, or "these" for.. hmm, i think they were about $20. now, i didn't take a course (and either way, they teach ppl in their courses that these are indeed protective glasses) and i trusted the supplier that if they tell me these are protective glasses then they are indeed protective glasses. there was no way i was going to invest $140 in protective glasses alone before i even knew if i was going to continue with this, so i got the cheap pair.

it took months before a more experienced lampworker saw them and sait to me- WTF?????? and then i realized that yeah, what was i thinking?????

turns out that what they say in the courses to ppl is that they need these protective glasses to protect them against flying bits, and don't tell them that they need protection against radiation, maybe so that they don't scare them away with the high investment needed in lampworking... the seller who never told this to me and made me understand that they give me the protection that i need stopped working there shortly after.

after they received complaints about it after the issue was brought up in the israeli lampworking forum (after the other supplier sold the protective glasses with that gold coating but refused to take any responsability for the bad quality of the product after ppl's coatings started to peel within just a few months...), they are now providing the students with clear plastic protective goggles and tell them it only protects them from the flying bits (at least they're not dark), i think they also generally let them know that further eye protection would be recomended, but i have a feeling they don't really tell them it's a must.

for 6 months i worked on a HH with craptastic dark plastic something over my eyes, shaped like protective glasses... all that time i was dialating my pupils and actually letting in more radiation than if i had just used nothing at all.

Here's the deal... When working soft glass on a torch, your eyes only need protection from flying bits of glass. Soft glass does not get hot enough to emit dangerous levels of IR (or UV for that matter). So, you could wear plain old safety glasses and your eyes will be just fine.

Now, if you would like to see what you are working on, then you will want something to block out the soda flare. That would be didymium or the newer ACE material. Neither didymium or ACE protect the eyes from IR.

Boro is different than soft glass. Boro requires higher temperatures to work and therefore, the glass is hotter and emits more IR. Whether it emits significant levels of UV is debateable. The most important thing to protect your eyes from is the IR (and how much protection is needed is another hotly debated subject right now). Boro still emits a soda flare.

You could use plain old welders shades to block the IR, but they do nothing to block the soda flare. So, most glasses made for boro work will incorporate both an IR filter and a soda flare filter. I believe that Phillips melts the material for the soda flare filter and the material for the welding shade material together to form a material from which they make the boroscope lenses (or some process to that effect). AuraLens makes a lens that is a laminate of different types of filters (pateneted process). Incorporating two different types of filters into one lense costs more than a single lens type, hence the difference between a $20 set of welders' shade clip-ons and a $140 set of boroscopes.

Another thing to remember is that if that $20 set of clip-ons os plastic, it will fade over time and lose effectiveness. The glass ones that don't fade are more expensive, I believe.

just recently I got a sever cause of flash burn not to my eyes thank god(been there done that) but my face. the most effected area was the cheek bone, where my boro glasses rested. bad enough to stop me from torching for almost two weeks. i still dont under stand how it happen, i stand at my torch and if anything my bench is low and i dont believe i slouch. the burn never hurt at all, it was almost four days after the fact that i realized i had scorched my face, no problem bathing or such where a sun burn might make you feel it. in any case i went out and got a face shield to wear over my glasses. talk about working in the dark. just recieved a blast shield for my torch yesterday and worked at the torch for some 4 hours today. It seems pretty nice, hope it will give me that added protection from the IR. I bought the UV/IR glass plate for more protection. so with this glass UV/IR plate can I now toss my boro glasses and wear my didies?

well, from what i understand and have been told all along the 2 years i've been lampworking, soda flare is bad for your eyes too.

Care to share with us who your source of information is?

Dale

Here's my .02.
I am by no means an expert, but I torch with both soft and boro.
I used the crappy didys that came with my starter kit for quite a
while, and then I finally ponied up for the AUR-92s. Best move ever.

When I started working with boro, I bought those $25 clip ons.
They did alright - but the dye does fade over time.
If I torched for a long time, I got severe eye strain and headaches.

I am now in the market for either a pair of 5 shades or a 3/5 mix.
These will run me probably over $200 easily.

Here's my thoughts. Even though people have worked with nothing
or next to nothing for centuries, my eyesight is not replaceable.
If I burn my fingers off - I can learn to rotate a mandrel with my toes
(and believe me, I will), however if the eyesight goes - it's game over
for me as an artist.

The co-pay for cataract surgery is in the thousands. Any damage to my
eyes beyond that is most likely not fixable.

I would invest in the best eyeware available. A pair of $25 clip ons that need
to be replaced every 6 months is not adequate if you are planning on doing
this as your business OR even as a long term hobby.

Everything else, including the glass, the torch, and the kiln should be
secondary.

Ok, so Aur-92's are the way to go for working in soft glass and...if you're working boro colors you need boroscopes?

What's the 3/5 mix? 3 for clear boro and 5 for colors?

And what's electromagnetic radiation? I thought IR stood for infra-red..where's the electromagnetic radiation coming from?

What's a flash burn and what exactly happened to cause that???

I'm still on the hothead with 104 glass so only wear my prescription glasses. I did buy a pair of, hmm forgot which but they're Phillips brand, for when I can use my duel fuel torch. So if I want to play with boro colors I need...... ???

Basically the 3/5 is a split shade. Lighter on top, darker on the bottom.

'zactly. Sometimes the glare is so bright, I like the darkness of the 5's.
However, when it's that dark, I can't tell black from blue from green,
so it's nice to be able to tilt your head down and have a lighter shade
so you can see a bit better. The best of both worlds.

Now I just need to find out who I have to sleep with to get
the best deal on these :lol:.

...anybody wanna be my sugar daddy???