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-   -   What should my first torch be? HELP! (http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293828)

Larboro43 2017-03-04 10:52am

What should my first torch be? HELP!
 
so I've narrowed down my choices to theses four
-Bethlehem alpha
-mini cc
-Nortel minor
-gtt cheetah

I know these torches were made for beads and marbles, but would like to know if the flames of any of these can also make small hallow pieces. Some feedback would be much appreciated :)

RanRhoads84 2017-03-04 11:00am

Alpha or Cheetah will be the best on oxy use, mini cc has a wider flame they say but uses more oxy. Personally I would go with a GTT Bobcat over the mini cc.

There is always the option of a National 3a-b hand torch with different sized tips for what you are trying to make, and the best part about that is you will always have a hand torch when you upgrade to a bigger bench burner.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

SharonP 2017-03-04 11:04am

I started 20 years ago on a Nortel Minor burner and still use mine as backup, and select it at class venues if they have one. Nice torch to teach with.

But switched to a Nortel Mega Minor - not much more expensive, and a bit hotter. Nice little torch. I work with 104 glass.

If you think you'll play with boro, the Mini CC is hotter and would work well with 104 and smaller boro work. I don't use it because it has more peripheral (side) heat than the Nortel's, but that can be an advantage for some work. It's just my preference.

Is there anyplace you can go to test torches before you buy?

If you could, I *highly* recommend the ISGB Gathering in Las Vegas at the end of the month. There's an open torch event and you could try out a lot of varieties and maybe even buy what you want at the vendor event.

edited to add: If you're going to do hollow functional pieces, a hotter/more powerful torch would be better.

earthandsky 2017-03-05 4:06pm

Soft glass or boro? What is your oxygen source?

After the Hothead, I went to the Minor. It's a great torch and many beadmakers use it.

I wanted something with more radiant heat, so I got a Hellcat, which has the Mini CC as its center fire. It is an oxygen hog and I use two 8lpm oxygen concentrators with it. I turn on the third oxycon when I'm also running the outer fire.

I tried the Bethlehem Alpha (and Bravo) at the Gathering and quickly decided that if I was beginning beadmaking today, I'd go with the Alpha. This new generation of Bethlehem torches were designed with oxygen concentrators in mind, which is great for us that use them.

If you want to use boro and have functional glass in mind, I'd go bigger and get the Cheetah. The advantage is that GTT holds its value pretty well, so if you want to upgrade later, you probably won't take much of a loss selling it.

But any of those torches will easily make small hollow beads and vessels from soft glass. Boro will just take longer.

dusty 2017-03-06 8:54am

I voted Mini CC, but I haven't tried the others (except the Minor - MiniCC wins easily against it).

AVTrout 2017-03-06 9:38am

I bought a Mini CC 10 years ago and it's still going strong today. I use it for COE 104, 96 and 90 glass. Tanked propane and a 5 LPM oxy concentrator.

Larboro43 2017-03-06 6:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RanRhoads84 (Post 4915564)
Alpha or Cheetah will be the best on oxy use, mini cc has a wider flame they say but uses more oxy. Personally I would go with a GTT Bobcat over the mini cc.

There is always the option of a National 3a-b hand torch with different sized tips for what you are trying to make, and the best part about that is you will always have a hand torch when you upgrade to a bigger bench burner.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

The only reason why I wouldn't go for the cc is that I've heard that you can get the flame into a needle sharp flame..is that true?

Imma have to look into that national because I do plan on upgrading in the future when I'm financially ready

Larboro43 2017-03-06 7:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharonP (Post 4915565)
I started 20 years ago on a Nortel Minor burner and still use mine as backup, and select it at class venues if they have one. Nice torch to teach with.

But switched to a Nortel Mega Minor - not much more expensive, and a bit hotter. Nice little torch. I work with 104 glass.

If you think you'll play with boro, the Mini CC is hotter and would work well with 104 and smaller boro work. I don't use it because it has more peripheral (side) heat than the Nortel's, but that can be an advantage for some work. It's just my preference.

Is there anyplace you can go to test torches before you buy?

If you could, I *highly* recommend the ISGB Gathering in Las Vegas at the end of the month. There's an open torch event and you could try out a lot of varieties and maybe even buy what you want at the vendor event.

edited to add: If you're going to do hollow functional pieces, a hotter/more powerful torch would be better.

I don't really know of anyplace we're I can test before buying, I've been into lampworking for only a year and for what I know it's not very popular out here in California (818 area). San Francisco is the closest place I know of that lampworking culture is rich.

I like to hear more about the event you mentioned tho, the only ones I know about is champs and glass vegas.

Larboro43 2017-03-06 8:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthandsky (Post 4915828)
Soft glass or boro? What is your oxygen source?

After the Hothead, I went to the Minor. It's a great torch and many beadmakers use it.

I wanted something with more radiant heat, so I got a Hellcat, which has the Mini CC as its center fire. It is an oxygen hog and I use two 8lpm oxygen concentrators with it. I turn on the third oxycon when I'm also running the outer fire.

I tried the Bethlehem Alpha (and Bravo) at the Gathering and quickly decided that if I was beginning beadmaking today, I'd go with the Alpha. This new generation of Bethlehem torches were designed with oxygen concentrators in mind, which is great for us that use them.

If you want to use boro and have functional glass in mind, I'd go bigger and get the Cheetah. The advantage is that GTT holds its value pretty well, so if you want to upgrade later, you probably won't take much of a loss selling it.

But any of those torches will easily make small hollow beads and vessels from soft glass. Boro will just take longer.

I'm going to start with soft first but I eventually want to get to a bigger torch and to boro but due to financial reasons and mostly because I've been itching to melt. I used to work for a production glass company were they used boro and Carlisle ccs

And I eventually do want to get a oxy con when the money is right..that's why I haven't really looked into them. In the old shop they only had tanks soo that's what I was thinking about doing what. Thanks for the advice by the way :)

Larboro43 2017-03-06 8:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusty (Post 4915921)
I voted Mini CC, but I haven't tried the others (except the Minor - MiniCC wins easily against it).

How's the center fire on the mini I'm looking for a needle sharp flame aswell

Larboro43 2017-03-06 8:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVTrout (Post 4915930)
I bought a Mini CC 10 years ago and it's still going strong today. I use it for COE 104, 96 and 90 glass. Tanked propane and a 5 LPM oxy concentrator.

A lot are going for the mini imma have too take a second look

dusty 2017-03-07 5:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larboro43 (Post 4916145)
How's the center fire on the mini I'm looking for a needle sharp flame aswell

The Mini only has one stage, so it's either center-fire or nothing. When you're running a short neutral flame, it's not particularly narrow and not particularly hot. I actually zip-tied a Smith Little Torch to the back of mine so that I could have a sharp/hot needle flame - it wasn't too often I felt the need to use it, but every now and then it came in handy. Not having a narrow flame isn't as limiting as I had imagined, and when I'm using my Phantom (or other torch), I miss the Mini CC for a lot of reasons - that gentle small flame being one of them.

Another advantage of the Mini CC is that the edge of the flame is soft. There's kind of a heat gradient going from full-blast to barely-hot-enough-to-melt-a-stringer as you move away from the flame. All torches have it, but it's exaggerated on the Mini. It's a blessing and a curse.

The things that make the Mini CC great for beginners, in my opinion, are the gentleness of the flame and the ease of setting a true neutral flame. On my Phantom, it's hard to know when a flame is truly neutral. I didn't know that until I used the Mini CC for a while - didn't realize that it was possible to consistently, quickly, and easily get a very precise mixture that had just enough oxygen to burn all of the fuel and not a bit more. The extra knob on the Phantom really complicates things, and I can set a reducing or an oxidizing flame just fine, but true neutral is still basically just a guess.

It's really hard to pick just one torch. I like most of the torches I've used. I wouldn't recommend a Mini CC (or any other torch) for an only-torch-ever. I've got a lot of torches, and still haven't found the perfect one. Most torches are best for something (I usually use a Phantom, but often get out my Hellcat, Mini CC, or National premix). If you came to my shop and didn't have a preference, though, I'd definitely recommend the Mini CC for something to learn on. If I'd tried the Alpha or Bobcat, I might recommend one of those instead - hard to say.

popo 2017-03-07 8:11am

I do all my work on a beth bravo, 90% of the time I'm using my center fire which is the alpha. I started on a minor torch and a 10lpm oxy con. Great torch, I hooked up my oxycon to the center fire and hooked up a tank to my outer fire and had a great setup. I have a progression thread on TMP if you want to see the work I made using both torches

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

Larboro43 2017-03-07 4:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusty (Post 4916194)
The Mini only has one stage, so it's either center-fire or nothing. When you're running a short neutral flame, it's not particularly narrow and not particularly hot. I actually zip-tied a Smith Little Torch to the back of mine so that I could have a sharp/hot needle flame - it wasn't too often I felt the need to use it, but every now and then it came in handy. Not having a narrow flame isn't as limiting as I had imagined, and when I'm using my Phantom (or other torch), I miss the Mini CC for a lot of reasons - that gentle small flame being one of them.

Another advantage of the Mini CC is that the edge of the flame is soft. There's kind of a heat gradient going from full-blast to barely-hot-enough-to-melt-a-stringer as you move away from the flame. All torches have it, but it's exaggerated on the Mini. It's a blessing and a curse.

The things that make the Mini CC great for beginners, in my opinion, are the gentleness of the flame and the ease of setting a true neutral flame. On my Phantom, it's hard to know when a flame is truly neutral. I didn't know that until I used the Mini CC for a while - didn't realize that it was possible to consistently, quickly, and easily get a very precise mixture that had just enough oxygen to burn all of the fuel and not a bit more. The extra knob on the Phantom really complicates things, and I can set a reducing or an oxidizing flame just fine, but true neutral is still basically just a guess.

It's really hard to pick just one torch. I like most of the torches I've used. I wouldn't recommend a Mini CC (or any other torch) for an only-torch-ever. I've got a lot of torches, and still haven't found the perfect one. Most torches are best for something (I usually use a Phantom, but often get out my Hellcat, Mini CC, or National premix). If you came to my shop and didn't have a preference, though, I'd definitely recommend the Mini CC for something to learn on. If I'd tried the Alpha or Bobcat, I might recommend one of those instead - hard to say.

they had carlisles were i used to work so i learned alittle on those. i ideally would want to get to a torch like those but you gottah start somewhere.

Larboro43 2017-03-07 4:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by popo (Post 4916223)
I do all my work on a beth bravo, 90% of the time I'm using my center fire which is the alpha. I started on a minor torch and a 10lpm oxy con. Great torch, I hooked up my oxycon to the center fire and hooked up a tank to my outer fire and had a great setup. I have a progression thread on TMP if you want to see the work I made using both torches

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

ive had my eyes on those beth torches, did you hear that theyre coming out with a new torch?..im still not to used to these thread sites but ill definitely check it out as soon as i get situated.

larryh 2017-03-12 9:29pm

I have a minor torch and other equipment for sell if you are interested. Have not used it much and would like to sell it if you are interested?

Hayley 2017-03-13 11:34am

Our of the four you have listed – and reading that you would like a torch that can dial down into a pin-point flame as needed – I'd definitely go with the Bethlehem Alpha.
The Mini cc doesn't yield the pin-point flame as the Alpha. The Nortel Minor isn't as hot as the Alpha. The GTT Cheetah also doesn't dial down to the pin-point flame as the Alpha AND being a 13-jet torch (compared to the Alpha's 6 jets), it's great for boro but a little too much (imho) for soft glass if you want to do detailed work. I'd recommend a two-stage torch with inner and outer flames instead of a large 13-jet Cheetah.

AVTrout 2017-03-23 10:04am

I still say the Mini CC. It's cheaper than most and is a great torch to learn on. You don't know what you'll really want to do until you melt some glass for a few months, and the Mini CC will let you do beads, focals, cabs and 1" marbles.

Alan 2017-10-23 3:44pm

I work with boro on an Alpha doing beads, pendants, marbles and small figurines, works well on a 10lpm industrial oxy con.
1" marbles take a bit but can be done.
The pinpoint flame is great for detailed work on small beads.
Like you say you need to start some were.

EmeryLawson 2017-10-23 5:15pm

I am going to put my two-cents worth in for folks who look at this in the future. I have worked on a minor off-and-on for 10+ years, but would go with the mega-minor if it was available when I started. That said, it is a good torch to learn on, but will not work with boro COE 33 so I plan to upgrade in the near future.

kansassky 2017-10-24 6:22am

The Alpha. Hands down.

I have used and owned all of the torches you listed. (And others, too.)

The Alpha is versatile, reliable, and simply the best.
It will easily handle 104 or 33.
You will love this torch.

Eileen 2017-10-24 6:40am

I find it really hard to vote, not having tried all the torches.

I have a minor and mega minor, and have used a mini cc and a bobcat at classes. I got used to the mini and it worked fine. The bobcat gave me a few problems because I am used to a wider flame that helps me keep things warm I guess, but nobody else seemed to have a problem with it.

ford0003 2019-01-16 10:40am

Mini CC and Oxycon
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AVTrout (Post 4915930)
I bought a Mini CC 10 years ago and it's still going strong today. I use it for COE 104, 96 and 90 glass. Tanked propane and a 5 LPM oxy concentrator.

AVTrout, it's been at least a year since you posted this. Do you still find the 5 LPM oxycon sufficient for the Mini CC? I am just starting out (working entirely in soft glass) and recently picked up a used mini. Now I'm looking into an oxycon. The research I'm seeing is most people don't think a 5LPM is enough for the mini. What's been your experience? Thanks!

AngelaS 2019-02-17 4:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford0003 (Post 5023050)
Do you still find the 5 LPM oxycon sufficient for the Mini CC? SNIP:Thanks!

Hey, did you ever get an answer to your question? I ask because I have a Mini CC and an oxycon but I don't remember if it's a 5 Lpm or a 7.
Either way it is plenty for me to work with and I never feel like I need more oxygen. My oxycon is packed away as I am only just now getting re-setup but would be happy to find out for you if need be? Let me know!

Oh, and how do you like the mini CC? Fun, 'ey? :-)


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