Etching **WARNING**
Read this before you start using etching liquid or etching paste, you are using an extremely toxic substance with potentially catastrophic health issues - this stuff can kill you even at low concentrations, dont listen to anybody that says they've been using it for years with no problems, just one accidental spill on your body or in your eyes can actually kill you if not treated correctly and very quickly.
we've been talking about this on the Aussie forum and i'll have to admit i was clueless, i had no idea how dangerous etching solution is, and considering how strict you guys are about ventilation, i was really surprised that i could only find two small comments here in the safety section on the dangers. Heres a link from Monash University courtesy of Nicole in Aus http://www.monash.edu.au/ohs/topics/...-fatality.html here is the link to the full thread, in particular you should read what Kerry from Affordable inspiration wrote and also Bev's scary experience http://www.glassbeadmakers.net/forum...hp?f=14&t=6844 More information Material Safety Data Sheet HYDROFLUORIC ACID http://www.kendon.com.au/Catalogue/M...luoricacid.htm Material Safety Data Sheet AMMONIUM BIFLOURIDE http://www.hillbrothers.com/msds/pdf...bifluoride.pdf |
Etchall Cream is Ammonium Biflouride at 20% solution.
Etchall Liquid is Ammonium Biflouride at 27% solution. You should use gloves and avoid the eyes with these but they are much safer than what was mentioned in the Monash university article. i hope to god no one is using that kind of acid for etching and especially not at that concentration. The chemical in the Monash University article was Hydroflouric Acid at a 70% lab solution so much more pure. I can't get into the first link. |
Quote:
this is what Kerry wrote, i dont think she will mind me reposting Quote:
|
from what i've just read the lower concentrations dont make it safer, it just takes a bit longer to affect you - this is not like a normal acid, diluting it just slows it down, it doesnt make it any less dangerous
Solutions of 14.5% and higher concentrations immediately produce symptoms. Solutions of 12% may take up to an hour to produce symptoms. Solutions of less than 7% may take several hours before onset of symptoms, resulting in delayed presentation, deeper penetration of the undissociated HF acid, and a more severe burn. Dip n Etch is a 9% solution gloves, face and eye protection are a must but you should also know how to immediatly treat the burns, washing the acid off is not enough because it is immediatly absorbed into the skin Quote:
|
2 small comments?
I have been trying to tell everyone what the hell etch all really is for the last 2 years. Most of the time the warnings have just been poo-pooed "oh they sell it at Michael's it can't be that bad, it's not like it's HF"... WELL BULLSHIT IT IS! Maybe this will get the attention of some of those people? Well I doubt it cause they know it all! |
Kerry at Affordable Inpirations stopped importing it as it is considered a dangerous substance and would require all sorts of special import licenses to bring it into Aus.
|
Quote:
i've searched a bit today out of curiosity and scared myself silly, this stuff is really really dangerous, it should not be used outside of a laboratory controlled environment, all the hazmat sheets i've read so far say that it should only be used in a fume box even at low dilution - the uninformed using it on the kitchen sink with a pair of surgical gloves on are endangering their lives on a level that should be of real concern i'm going to ask Corri to make this thread a sticky at the top of the Safety section, it shouldnt be hard to find information and warnings on something like this |
Etching creme, liquid and "crystals" are Ammonium bifloride
Wink rust remover contains HF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_bifluoride http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fluoride From finishing.com... "The use of (dry) Ammonium Bifluoride as a "safe" replacement for hydrofluoric acid is a unsafe practice. The uninitiated person who judges this as "safe" can quickly get into trouble since once the Ammoniuim Bifluoride (NH4F)HF is contacted with water, it will decompose to Ammonium Fluoride, NH4F and hydrofluoric acid ,HF. The HF content of the resulting solution will be ~ 33% of the original Ammonium Bifluoride and; if at the salt's solubility limit of ~ 40%, the HF content will be ~ 13%. . . very corrosive, toxic and hazardous. Some folks have used Ammonium Bifluoride as a substitute for HF and created (what they refer to as ) a "acid free" wheel cleaner. A dangerous and deceptive practice." |
Hydrofluoric acid is used in high school chemistry classes.
Glacial acids (highest concentration) are actually less dangerous than diluted acids. Diluting with water causes the hydrogen and the halogen to separate into ions (the hydrogen portion of it reacts with water to form a hydronium ion, or H3O+) which are what react with other things on contact. Since HF is relatively stable and likes to stay balanced towards less separation in water, hydrofluoric acid is actually one of the weakest acids. This is because the hydrogen and fluorine do not want to separate into their ions. Ammonium bifluoride, when mixed with water, "can release hydrogen fluoride" (hydrofluoric acid). http://www.solvaynorthamerica.com/Si...orideFinal.pdf This does not mean that everything in the solution is HF. It means that there may be SOME in the solution. A 9% solution of ammonium bifluoride does not mean it's 9% hydrofluoric acid. David said above that the HF will be approximately 1/3 of the percentage solution of ammonium bifluoride. I have not verified this, but if it is true, you would be looking at 3% HF. I'm not debating effects, as I don't know anything about them, but simply discussing how reactive hydrofluoric acid is, and what's actually in that etching solution. It's my understanding that the unseparated HF is what causes cellular issues. As with any chemicals, wearing gloves is key, and safety glasses are a very good idea. I can't remember if we used a fume hood in grade 11 chemistry - it's been a while. |
Quote:
the fact that its classified as a "weak" acid is actually what makes it more dangerous - people misunderstand the term and think it means its not dangerous, which is not the case. |
HF is a particularly dangerous acid because of its unique ability among acids to penetrate tissue. Dermal exposure is the most common type of exposure to HF with the digits being the most often affected body part. Related compounds that have similar toxicity profiles include ammonium bifluoride, ammonium fluoride, potassium bifluoride and sodium bifluoride.
http://www.mnpoison.org/index.asp?pageID=151 |
Kooky eh? I think there are a few posts about HF over on talkglass too if you want to go look.
Nasty stuff. |
I've been using it for what? 7 years now and my fingers are still intact. Wait...one just fell off...
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
I know it's dangerous. Anyone remember Alex Mirinov? Years ago she explained what it could do and I never forgot the creepy feeling I got in my hands when I read it. I don't like using it, but certainly will to get a look I want. To me, it's just as dangerous as what can happen with a flame. What if you tripped near your torch and fell into the flame? I take the danger seriously and do what I can to stay safe.
I wear gloves, big plastic safety goggles over my glasses, jeans and long sleeves. (I have never been a flip flop in the studio person so no trouble having shoes on) I hadn't thought to wear a respirator but will add that to the process. I have a baking soda solution nearby. Although it looks like Milk of Magnesia might be a good thing to have open and nearby instead. Easier to have as a dedicated part of the process. In the past, when I was ready to replace my etch all I would neutralize it with a baking soda solution to dispose of it. Anyone know the proper way? |
Quote:
Quote:
The milk of magnesia seems to be the go for first aid When I talked to my husband about this tonight he was stunned we were using HFA, he's involved in the civil construction business and they quite often have to deal with cleanups on industrial sites - he said they're not allowed to handle HFA until they do a three day course on how to handle it safely, he was amazed I was able to buy it |
Susan-I'd like to know how to dispose of it too. Since getting scared silly reading about it several years ago it has been sitting on a shelf but I'd really like to get rid of it.
ETA-Deb we posted at the same time. Found this on the msds. Thanks for posting it! "Whatever cannot be saved for recovery or recycling should be handled as hazardous waste by an approved waste agency. The waste must be neutralised with lime in order to immobilise the fluoride as Calcium Fluoride. Processing, use or contamination of this product may change the waste management options. Dispose of container and unused contents in accordance with federal, state and local requirements." |
Marks going to neutralise mine tomorrow and dispose of it at work, they have facilities for this kind of thing, he won't even let me touch it now - he's somewhat freaked
|
The MSDS link in the first post is not for Etchall Dip 'n Etch. Here is the actual MSDS:
http://www.edhoy.com/pdf/50663_50664_and_50665_MSDS.pdf |
Can we detox it with milk?
|
Spent hours researching this, and have to agree, it is incredibly dangerous. I will continue to work with it, safely, now that I know how. I also ordered the calcium carbonate gel and eyewash from the link below. I can't in good conscience have this item on my property without having a way to neutralize its effect should someone come in contact with it. I printed out the MSDS and am posting it in my studio. Now I am going to look into tumbling my beads, since that method is SOOOOOO much safer.
http://www.resurfacesolutions.com/p-...ric-burns.aspx |
Etch All's info is a lot milder than what Deb shared. It says you won't be harmed if it is washed off within a minute. Not that I'm sticking my hands in the stuff. But, I'm not going to get rid of it either.
|
Quote:
I've only used it once, and it didn't even work. |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Thanks for the msds info Amy. It says you can flush a moderate amount but I'm skeptical.
"Disposal Consideration Disposal: A moderate amount of product can be flushed down sewer with plenty of water. Flush with water or neutralize with lime. If a large quantity is being disposed of, comply with all federal, state, and local regulations. No special spill procedures required" |
Quote:
|
It SHOULD be a sticky so people can make up their own minds and at least be aware of how dangerous it can be, rather than just being careful because it's an acid.
Particularly the info about keeping lime and Mylanta to neutralise in the case of a spill or skin content. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I found the manufacturers site with a little tutorial for etchall showing how to etch a beer glass, no gloves, no eye protection, no mention at all of taking any safety procedures. I wouldn't take the manufacturers advice on the safety of this product at all Here you go, no gloves, no eye protection http://www.etchallstore.com/dip_instr.htm http://www.etchallstore.com/creme_instr.htm |
There is an article about etching safety in the next edition of The Glass Bead.
Robert |
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:41pm. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.