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Old 2007-08-02, 3:39pm
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William Hagy
 
Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
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Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
William, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Of course, I find it rather interesting that you would wait over a year to express it (this thread was well over a year old when you resurrected it). But, at any rate, your opinion is your opinion and differing views are always enlightening.

However, I do take exception to some of what you are saying, especially your characterization of the GTT torches and the claims that you are making regarding the Herbert Arnolds.


Cute torches? Dinky little knobs? While the GTTs are certainly attractive (their sleek design has a very important purpose, btw), they are hardly what I would call “cute” and their knobs are not “dinky.” “Cute” implies that something is not worthy of being taken seriously. GTTs are serious torches. The term “dinky” not only infers diminutive size, but also implies “low quality” or “fragility.” GTT knobs most certainly are not fragile or of low quality! GTT knobs and their valves are the most precise in the industry. They are also the best quality I have ever seen or used (and I have used and own torches from several different manufacturers, so I am basing my opinion on observable fact).

While you may not personally care for a torch with sleek, yet purposeful...... blah blah ballah....,

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As for the number of valves, there is purpose behind that, too.  The valves allow for the user to adjust the torch to whatever flame size and flame chemistry they want.  Naturally, the more valves there are, the better you can dial in the flame you want.  However, most of the guys I know who use the bigger torches with lots of valves never have to worry about adjusting them while their hands are full – they use foot pedals!  They simply preset the flame to whatever characteristics they want and use a foot pedal to kick it on or off.
so does everyone else in the world!

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Interesting side note:  GTT was the first torch manufacturer to offer the four post option on their torches. This was expressly for the purpose of using a foot pedal.  Later, the separate feeds proved to be very useful for running the fires from separate fuel or oxygen sources (e.g. oxygen concentrator for the innerfire and tanked for the outerfire).
Really!?!? Just GTT? ~get your facts straight.

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Going back to the number of valves...  I think that I should point out that HAs have many, many valves.  They are, however, not intended for the user to adjust and the user should never attempt to adjust them, lest they be prepared to send the torch overseas to be recalibrated.  To get around this, many people incorporate the use of in-line regulators to control the amount of gas that gets to the torch in order to adjust the flame to a setting other than the factory pre-set for the torch.  The HA is pretty much a one-trick pony without the use of cumbersome in-line regulators.
You have no idea what you just said do you......have you ever worked on one? One is compressed air the other O2 the big one controls gas/O2 I guess you couldn't figure that out.

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I fail to see how having to adjust in-line regulators while your hands are full is any easier than adjusting some knobs, much less simply kicking on a foot pedal (which does not require a free hand).
Why are you adjusting gauges when your hand are full?
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I’m sorry, but that whole statement is just downright misleading.
~no its not.

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HAs are NOT efficient.  As an example, an 18mm GTT Phantom uses between 35 and 40 cubic feet of oxygen per hour for its maximum full blast flame setting.  Due to the Phantom’s triple mix design, it puts out more heat than a 40mm HA.  According to the manufacturer, the HA 40mm burner uses 3.5 cubic meters of oxygen per hour for its maximum flame (which, again, is not as hot as the Phantom’s).  That is 123.55 cubic feet of oxygen per hour!  That means that the HA 40 uses 3 to 3.5 times the amount of oxygen as a Phantom for a flame that is not even as hot.  How is that efficient?
Where do you live? or do you use the metric system for fun? I do believe the GTT'S out there with the typical O2 regulator set @ 60lbs is blowing thru far more O2 than an HA set @ 20-29lbs.......see it is a fact that GTT's require you to run higher amounts of O2 for their equipment yet unable to produce a quiet fine point center fire by any means.

You claim that they are noiseless. HAs are hardly noiseless. How can you say that they are quiet to operate when they require an air compressor to run them?

You claim that they are precise. Please define what you mean by “precise.” Would that precision be attainable without the use of in-line regulators if it were not dialed in for a tight flame at the factory? How small of a detail flame is possible on a larger HA? I doubt that you can get as small a detail flame on a HA as you could on the centerfire of a GTT.

Indestructible in design? I had the opportunity to check out a little Arni. I was shocked at the fragile external plumbing. I have not examined a larger one to see if they are plumbed the exact same way, but if so, then I would hardly consider them indestructible. Yes, the bulky heat shield around the barrel makes the torch look tough, but it does not make the torch indestructible.

External construction aside, they are still as vulnerable to damage as any other torch out there. They carbon heavily and you had better hope that you don’t have to send it back in to the factory for repair. The last time I heard about a HA repair, it was around $800. That does not include the lost income from the downtime (it takes a very long time and costs quite a bit to send a torch to Germany to get repaired, btw).

Ease of use... Yes, a single knob control sounds very appealing.... until you realize that you are limited to the flame characteristics pre-set by the manufacturer. When you add in-line regulators to further adjust the flame to your own preferences, there goes that whole notion of simplicity. And again, the use of foot pedals eliminates the need to adjust knobs. Oh, and how simple is a HA to operate if you deviate from the specific pressure settings prescribed for each torch (like if you set it up in a studio other than your own)?

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You mention that you feel they are ergonomically correct.  The whole reason for ergonomic design is the comfort of the worker – so they don’t injure themselves unnecessarily.  The comfort of your whole body should be taken into consideration.  For starters, how about the heat generated by the torch body itself?  Are you able to steady you hands on the torch for detail work?  How close in to the face can you get when working a small flame?  And, how about the comfort of your eyes?  HAs have more candle glare than other torch out there.  That candle glare is very uncomfortable for lots of people.  They report that they see spots after working on a HA and often have headaches afterwards.  How good is having a well rested wrist (that is, if you only make crude adjustments using the single knob control and forego any fine tuning) when you are suffering from torch burn, ringing ears, spots before your eyes, and a headache?
What else did you do today? any other arguments with others....or are you just bored with nothin better to do?


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I would be curious to know more about this “touchy head syndrome.”  I would also like to know why he feels that they are flawed in design.  I would be interested in his reasoning.
Drop some rods on the head of a GTT and call me and let me know how it works out for you!

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As for being overpriced, I would argue that GTT torches are not overpriced – and are in fact underpriced when you consider the amount of work and high quality materials that go into them and what you can accomplish with them.  But, it is funny that he would not consider HAs or Carlisles to be overpriced – especially when you factor in how much they cost to operate (oxygen usage and an additional air compressor for a Herbie).
Then mail them as much money as you want!



Well, again, you say that “6-10 knobs” (actually, the largest GTT on the market only has 9) as if you have to use all of the knobs and adjust them while you work. You do not mention that foot pedals eliminate the need to adjust knobs while your hands are full! You also fail to mention that without the use of in-line regulators, the single knob control of the HA is incredibly limiting. At least with 6-9 knobs – available for the user to adjust - you have the ability to dial in the right flame for the job – any job large or small, from soft glass to quartz. You do not have to depend on a factory-technician-in-another-country’s idea of the right flame for your working style. You get to make that choice for yourself!

I’m not trying to bash HAs. But, if anyone is interested in one, I would suggest that they do a lot of research to see if they are a practical choice for their application and budget. Some of your claims regarding both GTTs and HAs are a little exaggerated if not untrue.
It would of been easier for you to write a book and send it to me ~now as for me "resurrecting" this thread.....someone else did that.

Attack my opinion on GTT's all you want I think they are overpriced and as far as the "too many knobs" I am well aware of why they put them there and what the do thank you very much.

Now for the noise level on an HA whoever you came upon working on one to find it "far" from noiseless should look into adjusting it properly....They do not require an air compressor to run......that is an assumption YOU made. ~That option is for people who know better and what to do with it.

Have a nice day!

~I know I will cause I just bought another 40mm Zenit
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50mm & 40mm Herbert Arnold Zenit Burners,Carlisle cc/cc+/mini,Liquid O2.
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