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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2012-02-20, 8:04am
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Default Is there a simple answer to setting up the right ventilation?

Hi!

I am new to lampworking and definitely new to installing things in my house.

I want to put a studio in our sunroom but am worried about the fumes going into the house. So I need to put in an exhaust system. I have read through many threads, dating 2008 to the last one posted here. But I am so lost with all the information I am reading.

I was wondering if there is something (an article, or suggestion) that can help me set up the correct ventilation system in a way that is easy to understand (not necessarily the simple solution).
Maybe even with a link to where I can see what Model of fan I will need?
where to buy the hoods and pipes?
And do I hire a plumber to install all this?

I am planning to get natural gas into the sun room and will be using oxygen concentrators so I don't need to have to deal with any tanks.

we have 2 little ones in the house. =) so I definitely don't want any fumes leaking into the house. And keep things as safe as possible.

Moreover. It is my dream to bring lampworking to the women of S. Africa. I volunteer with an organization (Zimele) that empowers women to stand on their own two feet by learning to create art, start new businesses and care for one another. http://www.zimelecommunity.org/

One day, I would love to take my knowledge and help set up a studio for them and teach them how to lampwork! So everything I learn from setting up my studio will be knowledge I will use to set up their studio!

All of your help will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Last edited by @miniuniworld; 2012-02-20 at 8:38am.
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  #2  
Old 2012-02-20, 11:40am
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Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
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Unfortunately no. Every work space is different and the math done to figure out the requirements fit that particular size work space.

It is a headache to get it all done correctly and safely.

We all have gone through this, I think I ate several pounds of chocolate.

Decide on your work area first, how you will vent through the wall, window, or door? How you will do your replacement air and then work on the actual fan size needed, hood for the space and enclosure ( Barley Box ) makes it very efficient especially when you add a baffled front.

I read these threads until I was dizzy and had a headache but eventually it all comes together and makes sense.

After I got the workbench set up I had another headache trying to figure out how to sit or stand without aches and pains. Finally got that figured too. It took about 6 months over all to really know what I needed. Eventually I learned I really needed a respirator because I am more sensitive with sinus problems.

The respirator lets me leave a torching session feeling the same as I went in, A magnifyer over the shield lets my eyes feel the same as when I started the session, kevlar sleeves keep my arms from burning from the radient heat, proper height adjustment keeps my neck and shoulders from aching. There is so much to learn but basically I just wanted to go in and then come out of the studio feeling about the same.

Without all of the above adjustments I felt much worse after torching.

It will take time but you will figure it all out...eventually.
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Last edited by Lorraine Chandler; 2012-02-24 at 10:58am.
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  #3  
Old 2012-02-20, 11:46am
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If you tell us where you are at there may be a lampworker in your area that can help you. Plumbers are not usually a good idea, unless they see another set up and understand what you need.

Maybe taking a plumber to this site can help him understand. It can help you too.

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...84ce5866b4d9e6



Lots of pictures and drawings and the actual math formula for figuring out your air needs etc.
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  #4  
Old 2012-02-20, 12:12pm
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Thanks! I am in Bergen County NJ.

I will check out the link you sent me. Thank you!

It is just so much information and I don't even know where to start to do the math. Or what kind of vents work best.

And the more I read, the more confused I get...
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  #5  
Old 2012-02-20, 12:44pm
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Yep, that sounds about right. Ah, I remember it well..LOL
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  #6  
Old 2012-02-20, 12:49pm
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Lots of peeps in New Jersy, Introduce yourself and ask for help setting up or better yet ask to go see their set ups. They may have a lampworking club or two you could join or even a lampwork store with studio time. also.


Hopefully someone will be close to you.

http://lampworketc.com/forums/search...archid=7649899
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  #7  
Old 2012-02-20, 1:34pm
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the sunroom is 168in by 138in. There are large windows on 3 sides of the sunroom. Some can open. Some were painted shut by the previous owner.

Would the box fan from this link be a good solution?
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum....php?f=22&t=90

I would love to post a picture to better show how the space look like. But I don't know how to add a pic to the reply.
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  #8  
Old 2012-02-20, 1:54pm
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As Lorraine says there is no answer to your question. There is, however, a solution to the problem of good ventilation for your space.


Let's look at the possible route to that solution.

In most cases the artist has a physical space, studio, set aside.
How big is the studio space?
What objects or spaces on the other side of the studio's walls will impact the mechanical setup?
Is there access to the outdoors?
Is there room to have at least 10 feet between where the vent system dumps the contaminated air and where the makeup air comes in?
Does the contaminated air impact someone elses property or safety or might it be sucked into another part of the building?
Where are doors and windows loocated in the space and how high are they from the floor/ceiling?
Can I cut holes in these walls?
Where do I want my workbench in the studio?
Will it face the door or wall? Will it be in the center of the room so it is multi sided?
How is the ceiling constructed and can I hang a somewhat heavy vent hood and ducting from it?
What other furnishings will I want in the studio?
Where will the kiln be located?
Where will the fire extinguisher be located?
How much electrical power is available? Is it enough for my equipment or do I buy equipment to fit the power; go smaller/ larger?
Are there special limitations such a stairs or sharp corners that may limit access?
What colors are pleasant ot work in for me?
Do I want to work standing, sitting, or both?
How long before I want to upgrade to a bigger torch and will this setup handle it?
Where will I store glass and how much?
Is the lighting suitable?
Can I build some or all of this myself? Do I have friends that can/will help?
How much can I afford and how much can I dump into the project at a time?
Can I make some or most of my small tools? What basic tools do I need to get started?
How big does my hood need to be?
What should the hood be made of or can it be made of? Do I buy or sub out (design and have fabricated) making a hood?
Do I think I'll ever have more than one torch station or teach classes?
Is this a hobby or a business venture or both?
Can I go cheap now and upgrade later or will that involve more work and expense than warranted so it's better to go good now?
Do I have access to places that supply materials I need to do some or all of the homemade things?

This is not a complete list of the many questions you will need to consider but it may help with major points that you will need to look at as you go along. It seems daunting and is a bit complicated but some of these will fall into place as you make decisions on other aspects of the problem. We all went down this road and can offer advice on what worked for us but keep in mind that each of us had/has a unique situation and came up with a unique solution for our particular studio. You can and will also.

PJH
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  #9  
Old 2012-02-20, 1:59pm
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A box fan will work if it is directly in front of the open window and placed on the workbench in front of the torch ( several feet away of course.

Then you need replacement air such as an open window or door behind you. It is adequate at best and will do for a start if you do not have any symptoms after torching. headaches, chest hurts, shallow breathing, dizzyness blurriness etc.

Here is a long thread from Wetcanvas and it has oodles of pictures of peeps work stations. Enjoy! Most of them inadequate or down right illegal!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93005
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  #10  
Old 2012-02-20, 3:08pm
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but most of those pics don't even have a vent or windows...

Thanks PJ and Lorraine!

So if the room is big enough and I have a few windows open behind me. I don't need a fan for the make-up air to come in? Just need a vent to pull out the air?

So I will try to answer those questions:

In most cases the artist has a physical space, studio, set aside.
Yes I will be using the sunroom

How big is the studio space?
168in by 138in with 8ft ceiling

What objects or spaces on the other side of the studio's walls will impact the mechanical setup? There are large windows on all 3 sides of the sunroom. except for where the sunroom is connected to the house, where there is a door.

Is there access to the outdoors?
no

Is there room to have at least 10 feet between where the vent system dumps the contaminated air and where the makeup air comes in?
Yes. I plan to set my torch up on on end of the room and open the windows on the other end.

Does the contaminated air impact someone elses property or safety or might it be sucked into another part of the building?
No. It will be sucked outdoors. It would have to be sucked out the deck if I want the make up air to come in through the window behind me. Or I can set up the torch on the other end and have the make up air come in from windows that looks out to the deck.

Where are doors and windows loocated in the space and how high are they from the floor/ceiling? There are large windows on all 3 sides of the sunroom. except for where the sunroom is connected to the house, where there is a door.

Can I cut holes in these walls?
Not sure if I can cut hole in the walls. I would think that the answer is no

Where do I want my workbench in the studio?
It will face one of the windows.

Will it face the door or wall?
I was planning for it to face one of the windows

Will it be in the center of the room so it is multi sided?
If this is a better option. I can do that as well.

How is the ceiling constructed and can I hang a somewhat heavy vent hood and ducting from it?
Not sure about this...

What other furnishings will I want in the studio?
I will put a few desk height cabinets for tools and for the kiln to sit on.

Where will the kiln be located? close to my work area... not too close but hopefully within arms reach

Where will the fire extinguisher be located?
I'll mount that on the wall near the door.

How much electrical power is available? Is it enough for my equipment or do I buy equipment to fit the power; go smaller/ larger?
There is enough electrical power


Are there special limitations such a stairs or sharp corners that may limit access?
Nope

What colors are pleasant ot work in for me?
anything soothing... the sunroom is actually wood paneled and I am okay with it.

Do I want to work standing, sitting, or both?
Sitting

How long before I want to upgrade to a bigger torch and will this setup handle it?
Hopefully not too soon. I am pretty happy with soft glass and will be using a minor in the beginning. Will most likely upgrade to a bobcat when I can find a good deal on one =)

Where will I store glass and how much?
I will store them in the desk height cabinets.

Is the lighting suitable?
I will have desk lamp as well as the natural light

Can I build some or all of this myself? Do I have friends that can/will help?
I don't know how to build much. But I can ask some friends to help or I can learn as long as I don't have to deal with heavy machinery

How much can I afford and how much can I dump into the project at a time?
I don't have a huge budget. Even the kiln is blowing my initial budget...

Can I make some or most of my small tools? What basic tools do I need to get started?
I am trying to buy those used...

How big does my hood need to be?
Yeah... that is one of my question...

What should the hood be made of or can it be made of? Do I buy or sub out (design and have fabricated) making a hood?
Can the hood be purchased? It seems like that are all custom made...

Do I think I'll ever have more than one torch station or teach classes?
I will start with 1 but maybe grow to 2 or max 3 torches?

Is this a hobby or a business venture or both?
It is a hobby now.

Can I go cheap now and upgrade later or will that involve more work and expense than warranted so it's better to go good now?
I would rather do it right the first time. So I don't have to redo it all. But I also don't have a huge budget to blow...

Do I have access to places that supply materials I need to do some or all of the homemade things?
I live next to a plumbing supply store... But not sure if they will have everything I will need... But I can order it if I know what I need and where I can get it.

Last edited by @miniuniworld; 2012-02-20 at 4:29pm.
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  #11  
Old 2012-02-20, 6:29pm
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So, look at you. You have almost all the questions answered. You're well on your way. I wasn't really expecting you to answer them on the forum but that's Ok as others will get good info from it.

Cutting holes in the walls... maybe that isn't necessary. You can run ducting thru windows via a wooden insert. And I have seen good systems that run ducting along the floor and out thru a doorway. I know one woman who suspended her hood from 4 posts at the corners of her bench and ran the ducts in/out thru two doors. Worked great.

Hood size. Hood size will be partially dertermined by your bench size. I like to make them so the front edge of the hood is set back from the bench edge about 6 to 8 inches so I don't bang my head into it. And I like the bottom edge about forehead high or a bit higher so my head clears it if I bend over while standing/sitting at the bench. In addition to hood size you will need to calculate fan size. The fan CFM is determined by the hood opening in square feet times 125. ie. 2' x 3' hood + 6 sqrft x 125 = 750 cfm fan size. In reality something between 600 and 750 will work.

It sounds like you want to just put a fan in a window in front of you and call it good. it may work but will be very very marginally effective. Try to come uo with a hood - fan setup that works well.

Glasscraft used to sell a hood package but it had some problems with inadequate fan size. If you search back for a pic of one you will see what looks very much like a water tub for watering stock. Something like that works well, is already made, and can be easily modified to suit.

All these things you have considered and answered should have planted a seed of understanding and a basic plan of what you need to do.

You're getting there.

Last edited by cheng076; 2012-02-20 at 6:33pm.
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  #12  
Old 2012-02-20, 7:21pm
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You and Lorraine are so encouraging! I really appreciate your attitude! I know you have answered so many people's question on this matter and you are still so patient!

Thank you to you both!

So for this:
Glasscraft used to sell a hood package but it had some problems with inadequate fan size. If you search back for a pic of one you will see what looks very much like a water tub for watering stock. Something like that works well, is already made, and can be easily modified to suit.

Does anyone still sell something like it? that is already made?
And I will just make sure I get the right fan size?

Thanks!
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Old 2012-02-22, 6:40pm
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No one makes them...sorry. We just all have to build our own designs.


You could go with a portable ventilator ( pic) until you get a Barley box built with a squirrel cage fan exhaust system which would be very good.

These come in all sizes shapes and colors some with three speeds. You can set the fan on your bench and run the exhaust ducting to the outside.

No it's not ideal but it will work if you have some replacement air coming in behind you over you shoulders.

They have these at Harbor Freight for about $40.00

Also you can pick up used blowers at heating and airconditioning shops for free or cheap. We bought ours used for 40.00. My DH then rewired it with a switch for swamp coolers.

You will figure it out but be flexible and don't be in a hurry. Try to build it right when you finally decide on what you want.
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Old 2012-02-23, 11:17am
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One of the contributors over on thegldg.com marble forum or maybe wet canvas forum actually reccommends this fan and shows how to adapt it to ducting for a vent system. I had forgotten about that fan.
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Old 2012-02-23, 3:39pm
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In regards to tools...

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...homemade+tools

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...homemade+tools

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...homemade+tools
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  #16  
Old 2012-02-24, 9:51am
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cool!!! Thanks! This is awesome! and I love the homemade tools link!
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Old 2012-02-24, 12:35pm
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I just recently got my studio set up, and used the open window/box fan approach. I built the hood described in this link. My setup passed the incense test and works great! In my case, I needed a ventilation setup that was not permanent. I use a BBQ size propane tank outside the window and an oxycon.

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum....php?f=22&t=90
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Old 2012-02-24, 3:05pm
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I think the open window box fan approach will work best for me too. May I ask if fan you got? and Where did you get it?

Thanks!
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Old 2012-02-27, 1:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorraine Chandler View Post

Here is a long thread from Wetcanvas and it has oodles of pictures of peeps work stations. Enjoy! Most of them inadequate or down right illegal!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93005

That thread is terrifying!
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Old 2012-02-27, 1:56pm
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I got this one, rated 525CFM:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...&storeId=10051

I had to build a custom insert for my window, with a square hole to mount the fan in. I also drilled a hole for the propane hose to go through to the tank outside. I disconnect everything, remove the fan from the window and take the hose inside after each session. I was actually surprised how powerful this little plastic fan is. Very pleased.

This one looks promising for a larger room:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...5673%2d%5f%2dN

Last edited by shelbelle72; 2012-02-27 at 2:21pm.
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Old 2012-02-27, 4:07pm
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Maybe I can build this box fan: http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum....php?f=22&t=90
an use this:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...5673%2d%5f%2dN

Is the best place for the make up air coming from behind? or would it be better to have the make up air come from two windows on both sides?

Thank you
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Old 2012-02-27, 7:20pm
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My make up air comes from behind, but I am no means an expert. I'll defer to others on this forum who have more expertise.
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Old 2012-04-03, 3:09pm
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Hi Lorraine

I can't seem to find one that looks like the one in your pic... I found this one for $75
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-...tor-97762.html

Is it the same thing? So does it just sit on top of the table across from the flame?
Sorry if I sound really dumb asking these questions.
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Old 2012-04-12, 10:37am
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So sorry I just now came back to this thread. If I don't reply just shoot me a PM.

So where are you now in your studio build?
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Old 2012-04-12, 11:39am
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Going to see how the box fan method will work. =) Just ordered the fan from Home Depot=)
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Old 2012-04-12, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @miniuniworld View Post
Going to see how the box fan method will work. =) Just ordered the fan from Home Depot=)
Please let us know how it works out. Lots of different ways to ventilate and most can be made to work well.
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Old 2012-04-12, 12:36pm
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definitely! =)
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Old 2012-04-25, 11:26am
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Quote:
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That thread is terrifying!
I second that!
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Old 2012-04-25, 11:35am
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Quote:
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That thread is terrifying!
I agree too..

Aren't they aware of the dangers of having no proper ventilation, tanks inside, etc... ?
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Old 2012-04-25, 11:45am
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Quote:
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I second that!
The irony of that thread is how many tried to do it right and then violated the propane tank rules.... Or the ones that got the tanks right but forgot the ventilation.... Or just then there are those who did not care or nobody told or helped them to be aware of the dangers....

Then there are some that got it right in every respect....

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