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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #1  
Old 2012-05-05, 1:38pm
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Default Oxygen questions

Just curious. What are you using? How fast are you using it up? How much is it costing you?

Currently I'm on 5 oxy-cons. each running 2 1/2-3 lpm into a tank then to my barracuda. I'm happy with this set up for 104 and bullseye, but as I move into boro I'm pretty sure I'm gonna want tanks. The question is how big a tank and how fast I'd have to get it refilled. Looks like K tanks are the norm, but only getting a handful of hours out of a tank means a lot of time running around each week. So liquid oxygen? How much am I looking at and how long do you usually get? And do the gas companies have requirements as to where you can put a dewer(?)? I've got my propane outside on a brick porch under a porch roof. I'd be comfortable with ox. tanks out there as well. But again I've got very little experience with tanks and even less with liquid ox.

Yeah I know, I need to go out and talk to a gas company. But it's Saturday and I'm interested in your experiences. Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 2012-05-05, 8:07pm
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Bunyip Bunyip is offline
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15 LPM should give you enough oxy for a lot of happy boro work, provided you have enough pressure. Brent Graber worked his magic on 2 M-15's (16 LPM total) I believe, though I think he has since gone liquid. You won't be making 2" marbles quickly, but then again, that's not so quick on a barracuda even on tanked. And the radiant heat from the barracuda in general, oy... My fingers look like raw meat if I rage too much...

If you go the K tank route, get 3 tanks (It's what I have). Best bet long term is "customer owned", preferably buy used tanks at a reasonable price rather than from the supplier at full retail for what amounts to used tanks (it's a racket). Legitimate customer owned tanks will not have anything stamped on the collar just below the valve - except on rare occasions when they will say 'customer owned' or something similar. Tanks with writing on the collar identifying a company may be considered stolen goods by an oxy provider. This is a bad thing and if you have a touchy oxy supplier things can go badly. While you will probably not be arrested the tank will most likely not be filled and may be confiscated when you try to have it filled.

The benefit of having 3 tanks is less trips to the oxy store, and you can get into a fairly simple routine: When you hook up tank #3, remember to go to the oxy store before you kill it. Working boro on the cuda's center fire only you're good for up to 10 hours on a tank (maybe 12 but that's pretty optimistic), depending on how conservative you are - I get more like 8 unless I'm working soft glass....and of course you get less if you run the outer ring or even if you're raging the center fire.

If you go the liquid oxy route, there's a lot to consider. I've done the research but have not used liquid oxy in my work except at other's shops. Here is what I've gleaned thus far: If you're not using enough oxygen, it may vent. Loudly. The neighbors will likely think this is a bad thing, perhaps even an emergency worthy of calling 911. Which would be a bad thing in itself. Next off is the "own it or rent it" dilemma, which I will leave to you after suggesting you try to find a used dewar... Finally, most oxygen providers will not deliver to a residential neighborhood, and if you're renting may not rent to you if they think or know it will be located in a residential area. This will vary by location. In most residential situations, my conclusion has been that it would be better to have a "customer owned" dewar and transport it yourself. I believe Trey Cornette went this route, and utilizes a small trailer for this. Ideally you could leave the dewar on the trailer, back it up to the hookup, and save a lot of hassles.

PS: When talking to oxygen suppliers, I would suggest calling around and getting prices multiple. If possible, don't identify yourself in this initial stage, but hint that you're thinking of SWITCHING suppliers from a competitor and were wondering what their prices were like. Whatever amount they give you initially will likely be a much higher rate than you should be paying. Make sure they are aware that you know that. I pay just under $10.00 a tank these days. Your quotes will be more than twice that, perhaps even triple unless you can establish that you know what you are talking about and foster a good working relationship with your supplier. I've heard it said by some that trinkets seem to smooth that path but I've yet to resort to that in my negotiations. One last hint: Save the guy who is closest and most convenient for last... that way you'll be armed with much more knowedge when opening negotiations.
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  #3  
Old 2012-05-05, 10:03pm
LePatron LePatron is offline
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Homefill.

All you need to do is sell a few concentrators and buy the Homefill top unit and a whip to your K tank. Problem solved for around $600-800.

p.s., I have two conecntrators for the homefill on the garage sale forum right now, brand new in the box. Most will work, but these are designed for it.

gl
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  #4  
Old 2012-05-05, 10:07pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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i get about 12 hours of mostly oxidizing runtime on my mirage off a K tank. i run the outerfire only about 10% of the time, though. i have a wholesale account and have swapped glass for tanks. i have a very friendly relationship with my supplier and get excellent service. I think its a sweet setup for me and have no plans to drop back to a room of concentrators any time soon. i would rather leave the oxy concentration to the pros and concentrate on producing great glass. the performance tradeoffs are too steep for me.
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  #5  
Old 2012-05-06, 5:23am
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Thanks, all very useful information.
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  #6  
Old 2012-05-06, 6:11am
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I am averaging 50+ days on a dewar of LOX. I work some most every day but am gone for up to 5 days at a time. I vent off the pressure before I leave and usually the tank is not venting when I return. I have yet to experience the loud venting. I don't need to use the pressure builder so when it does vent it is just a slow low hiss.
I had all the concerns you have and found that none of them where really valid for my usage.
My dewar is a 180L with a 350 psi vent. I will be trading up to a 500psi vent as soon as they have one. I started with a 230psi which vented a bit more.
When I switched over from my re compressor system to lox the results where amazing. I felt as though I had been working with one hand tied behind my back on generated O2.
I get my tank refilled rather than trading out. I purchased a trailer just for this purpose and the dewar never leaves the trailer.
More than happy to answer any questions or address any concerns. Just drop me a pm.
Go LOX. You will be super happy!!!!!
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  #7  
Old 2012-05-11, 11:22am
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some people choose to run the inner fire off oxycon(s) and tanked for the outer fire to save $$ on O2 refills. I just set my new torch up this way, so I don't have any idea how long my 280 cf tank will last. I also like this concept as it will allow me to work even when my tank is empty just using the oxycons (it's good for patience building anyway).
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  #8  
Old 2012-12-10, 5:36pm
Dr Bill Dr Bill is offline
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bye

Last edited by Dr Bill; 2013-08-03 at 7:48am.
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  #9  
Old 2012-12-10, 7:21pm
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We work our Carlisle Hellcat off 5 AirSep Oxycons and can make up to 3" marbles without trouble
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  #10  
Old 2012-12-10, 7:50pm
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Dr. Bill has joined our product review panel. I can't wait to see what he can do with this oxygen set up now that he has some real American-made glass to work with.
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  #11  
Old 2012-12-11, 7:09am
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dr bill, why would you put 5 LOX tanks together? it's overkill....nobody needs 5 lox tanks to power a minor.

again i think your confused and you have 5 compressed oxy tanks and your getting your terminology mixed up.

what do your tanks look like? that should go a long way towards clearing this up because again, noboday needs 5 lox tanks for a minor burner.
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  #12  
Old 2012-12-15, 7:11pm
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We have been using Dewars for over 8 years now... all I can say is that we would never go back to tanks or generators.

Dewar v/s K Tank comparison
180 liter dewar- capacity

We get 4-6 weeks out of a GP-50 dewer (350 psi blowoff) (180 liters), with delivery, hazmat charges, etc, and it costs us $118 a refill. Lease is $300 per year. If we work 3-4 hours a day, we hardly ever blow any off. Our k tank charge is close to $30. each! The dewer is = to 21+ k tanks! Cost wise there is no comparison.

Labor wise there is absolutely no comparison.

180-some 200 liters dewar = to 21-24k tanks

21 k tanks = $ 630.00 (average)

Dewar = 118.00 (includes delivery and all other hazmat, etc. costs)

each k-tanks amount of dewer = $5.62 (average)

For the past year the newer GP-50 dewars have been 200 liters with blow offs of 350 or 500psi... they last even longer and are = to more k tanks.

Back in July of 2012 we were on dewar # 74, the following figures were up to that time:

Dewar # 74 - so far •••• approx = to 1,680 k tanks !!
at $28.50 per k-tank = they would have cost us $46,398.00 ++ gas and time driving to replace them.
74 dewars = cost us about about $9,472.00
so far we SAVED appox. $36,926.00 using dewars !!!

We are now on dewar #81.

The other huge difference from concentrators or generators is that the LOX purity is about 99.5 %. This makes a HUGE difference with many of the boro colors, and all of the silver bearing colors.

We've had a Kobuki, 2 mirages, a delta magnum, 2 phantoms, a couple of carlise ccs, and other assorted torches going all at the same time! Try that with anything other than LOX!

Out of 81 dewars we have only had one screamer, and that was a beat-up ancient gp-45. We had 2 others that blew off almost continually but quietly, and the Oxy company did not charge us for them. Most blow off very quietly, and for a very brief period.

This has been our experience thus far...

-Ed-
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  #13  
Old 2012-12-16, 5:49am
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LOX is definitely the way to go if you use a lot of O2. I had a full time studio I'd definitely consider LOX, by the way CMoG use LOX they have many dewars, but then again they have O2 hard piped using 2 inch piping. Even with one torch going 8 hrs a day LOX can be the most cost effective way to go, unless you live way out in the boonies.
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  #14  
Old 2012-12-21, 5:54pm
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If you dont like LOX we were running two herbies off of the big compressor and before that it was a Herbie and a Mirage. There are some options if you don't want to go LOX but if you have much more than Two big torches running full time it seems to be the way to go. We would run it about every 4 days overnight and it kept up just fine.

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  #15  
Old 2012-12-27, 9:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew1492 View Post
If you dont like LOX we were running two herbies off of the big compressor and before that it was a Herbie and a Mirage. There are some options if you don't want to go LOX but if you have much more than Two big torches running full time it seems to be the way to go. We would run it about every 4 days overnight and it kept up just fine.

More info on that setup please.

I haven't turned a torch on since April because oxygen isn't available to me any more. I'm looking for alternatives for my CC.
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  #16  
Old 2012-12-27, 12:13pm
drew1492 drew1492 is offline
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It can fill a K tank to 2000 psi in under 10 hours. Uses about 500w of power. You will need about 10lpm at about 10psi to feed it. I ran it off a 5lpm and 10lpm concentrator with the pressure bumped up a bit.

They are pricey you are looking at about $3k but if you cant keep liquid or have oxy delivered it is a nice option. I have used it for around 8 months I had to re seal the gauge once... I had it hooked up to 4 K tanks all the time and we would just fill to 1000-1500psi. In oxy costs if I was using K tanks at $24 I have probably just about broken even on it. It is nice to just leave everything set up and only turn it on when you are low. I would buy it again in a heartbeat I took a risk though not really knowing what I was getting at first.

It runs off standard voltage as well no 220 needed.
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  #17  
Old 2012-12-27, 1:37pm
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What brand is it? Where did you get it?

Considering K tanks here are usually over $40 (and that's at the cheaper place) that may well be a good option for me.
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  #18  
Old 2012-12-31, 12:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew1492 View Post
If you dont like LOX we were running two herbies off of the big compressor and before that it was a Herbie and a Mirage. There are some options if you don't want to go LOX but if you have much more than Two big torches running full time it seems to be the way to go. We would run it about every 4 days overnight and it kept up just fine.

We have the same concentrator. Would you mind sharing how you hooked that up to your k tank?
Thank you! Newbie here!
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  #19  
Old 2012-12-31, 12:57pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Compressor is here....

http://www.energetic-tech.com/oxygen...ee-compressor/
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  #20  
Old 2012-12-31, 3:18pm
s13 s13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC View Post
So I need this and the invacare system to fill one of our K tanks?
(we have the invacare)
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  #21  
Old 2012-12-31, 5:00pm
drew1492 drew1492 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s13 View Post
So I need this and the invacare system to fill one of our K tanks?
(we have the invacare)
Any oxycon that puts out the needed pressure and output works. I use two oxy cons with it. There are two different systems in the photo.
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  #22  
Old 2012-12-31, 5:39pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s13 View Post
So I need this and the invacare system to fill one of our K tanks?
(we have the invacare)
are you selling these, drew?
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  #23  
Old 2012-12-31, 6:54pm
s13 s13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew1492 View Post
Any oxycon that puts out the needed pressure and output works. I use two oxy cons with it. There are two different systems in the photo.
This one is pretty strong. I just have no idea how to hook it up to the K tank. Do you have any idea how to do this? What I need to purchase?
Thank you! (Newbie here!)
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  #24  
Old 2013-01-07, 11:59am
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$30-$40.00 per K tank? Ouch. Liquid is definitely the way to go then....Not that it isn't the way to go anyway.
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  #25  
Old 2013-01-14, 9:17pm
drew1492 drew1492 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC View Post
are you selling these, drew?
I don't sell homefills anymore I could help you out with a HK compressor if you wanted one. The only homefill thing I do anymore is sell whips if someone needs one.
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  #26  
Old 2013-01-15, 5:00pm
khan khan is offline
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Drew,
How much do you get for a whip?
And do they connect to the Quick connect that is on the concentrator? If it does where can a person get those connecters that fit in to the quick connect?

Thanks
Khan
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  #27  
Old 2013-02-01, 9:18am
borowalla borowalla is offline
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I'm the maker of the High Volume Oxygen systems. I'd like have a dialog about it and answer any questions people might have about how it works.. Thanks
Marc Kornbluh
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  #28  
Old 2013-02-01, 9:46am
deb tarry deb tarry is offline
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Sweet chat away Marc
seems there is interest for the smaller home fill type of system and for the larger system that Drew is using now. I for one have one of the smaller systems that Drew used to sell love it but I am seeing a need to go with something bigger as my oxygen consumption is going up. I live way out of town and a k tank runs me 50.00 to 75.00 per tank and I am not sure that liquid oxy is an option. Post a link to your web site
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  #29  
Old 2013-02-01, 10:17am
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nice! i've seen those systems advertised....and if only i had the money i'd buy one. oxycons are great....unless your studio is in an unheated garage during the winter, which mine is.
i've got a homefill which is great, but i have to lug the k tanks up and down the cellar bulkhead stairs to fill it, which for one person who only weights 165lbs is tough.

i really covet those hv systems! i'd love to hear more about them too.
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  #30  
Old 2013-02-01, 9:56pm
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@borowalla - Start a thread. Im sure tons of peoples are very interested in hearing more.
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