URO104 Compatibility & Quality Control, from Eric Lovell, President of Uroboros

Uroboros Glass · #1 2013-04-30, 1:54pm

Hey everybody, we at Uroboros are surprised to read about the problems some folks are having with our 104 Clear rods. After six months of making them, and many hundreds of users working with them, we’ve had nearly 100% very positive reviews - until this thread. There are a lot of issues mixed into the comments – sorry for the loooong post - please read on for our replies to them.
The compatibility issue is the most complex. 104 rods are produced for an ‘open framework’ world, with multiple manufacturers - all with different ideas about quality control - making a lot of different products that artists mix in every way imaginable. None of the manufacturers involved communicate with each other about expansion standards, and none have even matched their expansion measuring procedures.
Finding a perfect expansion point for a clear product for that environment may be a fools’ errand, and the risks therein were the primary reason we put off producing a 104 clear rod product for so many years - despite the zillion requests. It was only a heartfelt request from our dear friend Ed Hoy that encouraged us to proceed with 104 rods, based on our success over 8-10 years with our 104 Clear formula for the dichro sheet market.
The exact COE point of this formula was developed by finding the middle expansion point of some two dozen Effetre colors. Once established, we have maintained this exact expansion point, plus or minus ½ COE point, ever since. That may be compared to the plus or minus 3-4 COE points that occurs from color to color and lot to lot in ‘104’ rods made by other manufacturers. Given this somewhat wild environment, it is only realistic to assume that some colors made by some of the ‘104’ manufacturers are not going to fit with our 104 clear 100% of the time.
What can users do about this? It would be helpful for users and manufacturers to know exactly which colors folks are having compatibility troubles with. The manufacturers of those colors should be alerted. We will track those that folks tell us about to see if we can influence the appropriate manufacturer to improve the compatibility of that color. In that way, over time the 104 category would become more dependable for all users. Meanwhile, if you have your heart set on using a specific color that caused a crack before, try it again but in thinner stripes or layers. The smaller the color line the more COE mismatch it can handle without generating a crack.
Scratches and hollow tubes are another story. An important point for 104 users is to confirm whether you were shipped first quality rods or ‘odd rods’. This distinction might be missed by a reseller packing your order, so it’s worth checking that first if you have a quality problem. During QC at Uroboros, rods with excessive bubbles, tubes or scratches are graded as ‘odds’ along with shorties, bent or out of rounds. Odds are intended for practice pieces or students, and are priced accordingly. To avoid higher prices we do allow some bubbles to pass, when they are small enough or scattered enough, though of course we continue to pursue ways to minimize them.
Based on what we’ve learned from this thread, we’ve already stopped packing rods with hollow centers into the ‘odd rod’ group. They will be discarded from this point forward - thanks for the heads up, folks! Of course, if we’ve shipped hollow centers in a first quality bundle, we didn’t intend to - it’s our boo-boo, and we will replace them at our expense. Just let us know!

Lisi · #2 2013-04-30, 4:22pm

Have you any idea of when the company will come up with some new 96 COE colors in rod form? I know they have a lot available in frit, like the Cotton Candy Pink, for example. There are also numerous colors of greens, grey, blues, and browns, all opal colors. It would be great if they could make those fantastic colors in rod form.

There was an old System 96 sheet glass color called "Adobe", and I made beautiful beads with it. It was a gorgeous butterscotch pudding color, and I know this could become really popular with the lampworkers. It would be great if it was brought back to production as sheet glass, or even better, as the lampworking rods.

Several years ago I bought the last of about 30lbs of it from a stained glass supplier, and this box of glass was destroyed in a fire of my family home two years ago. I was hoping to find melted chunks of it, but no luck. Too dangerous to search through the rubble. All I have left is a 6x12" piece, which was in storage elsewhere.

Thanks!

shawnette · #3 2013-04-30, 4:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisi

Have you any idea of when the company will come up with some new 96 COE colors in rod form? I know they have a lot available in frit, like the Cotton Candy Pink, for example. There are also numerous colors of greens, grey, blues, and browns, all opal colors. It would be great if they could make those fantastic colors in rod form.

There was an old System 96 sheet glass color called "Adobe", and I made beautiful beads with it. It was a gorgeous butterscotch pudding color, and I know this could become really popular with the lampworkers. It would be great if it was brought back to production as sheet glass, or even better, as the lampworking rods.

Several years ago I bought the last of about 30lbs of it from a stained glass supplier, and this box of glass was destroyed in a fire of my family home two years ago. I was hoping to find melted chunks of it, but no luck. Too dangerous to search through the rubble. All I have left is a 6x12" piece, which was in storage elsewhere.

Thanks!

Lisi, they just released 2 new rod colors (a green and a grey) and 3 stringers (green,grey and brown). Do you get the newsletter email? If not, you should sign up for it.

And following up on what Lisi asked, when will you be producing the brown and charcoal (2116 & 2806) in rod form (96COE)? Your rod palette is severely lacking in neutral opaque colors. A dense white would be awesome, too, as would a tan (like Adobe). (I can't say enough good about the black and clear. They are freaking awesome!!)

DKS · #4 2013-04-30, 4:50pm

Thanks for addressing the problems with your 104 clear.

After reading rave reviews of the Uroboros 104 clear, I had high hopes. Unfortunately the one and only bead I made with this clear cracked. I've made this bead many times before, with Effetre, Lauscha and Reichenbach clear (probably Vetrofond too) and never had one crack until now. If I had encased any of of CIM glass or a colour with known problems it wouldn't have worried me so much, but because it was this particular combination, I'm reluctant to try it again. I don't want the worry of not knowing whether any beads I make with it, will crack some time down the track.

I post this not as a complaint but in the hope that this information will help you produce a good 104 clear.

chrisdd · #5 2013-04-30, 5:00pm

Not intending to be a hall monitor, but could we please keep this thread on topic? I know a lot of us are going to refer back to this page to keep up with any changes. Having discussions about 96 is going to be counter productive.

shawnette · #6 2013-04-30, 5:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKS

Thanks for addressing the problems with your 104 clear.

After reading rave reviews of the Uroboros 104 clear, I had high hopes. Unfortunately the one and only bead I made with this clear cracked. I've made this bead many times before, with Effetre, Lauscha and Reichenbach clear (probably Vetrofond too) and never had one crack until now. If I had encased any of of CIM glass or a colour with known problems it wouldn't have worried me so much, but because it was this particular combination, I'm reluctant to try it again. I don't want the worry of not knowing whether any beads I make with it, will crack some time down the track.

I post this not as a complaint but in the hope that this information will help you produce a good 104 clear.

What are the colors?

DKS · #7 2013-04-30, 5:20pm

Effetre black, lapis and rubino, the vine is mostly pea green.

smpalmer85 · #8 2013-04-30, 7:55pm

Any plans to offer additional diameters on the clear? Large diameter rods tend to solve a lot of the scratching problems for me anyway (smaller surface area/volume ratio). I haven't had any compatibility issues worth noting and am using and liking the first quality batch I picked up in Las Vegas.

One of my concerns is that many of the vendors we are now seeing selling these rods: frantz/edhoys/howaco/flamedame/ABR etc do not seem to be specifying which quality of rod they are selling. If they are all selling first only that's great. Until the Las Vegas show though, I was not even aware there were "odd" lots. I see you have some "Odds" marked and available for resell on your own website. If you are wholesaling odd lots to suppliers I think we need pressure on your level to ensure our suppliers are providing us with the appropriate product labels. Being sold an odd lot without the knowledge that it is an odd lot will impact product/brand perceptions.

Keep up the nice work. Love the price point, clarity, and viscosity.

MelanieG · #9 2013-04-30, 9:18pm

I love the Uroboros 104 Clear noodles that I have. I haven't had any compatibility issues with it yet but I think everything I have is from one specific batch. I understand that some people have experienced problems with a newer batch of Uroboros 104 Clear that they did not have with a previous batch, but that does not seem to be addressed in the OP. Is my understanding incorrect?

Is the term 'odd lot' something that there is an industry standard definition for? The definition in this thread is different from what we've seen from other 104 COE Glass Manufacturers. My understanding was that an 'odd lot' was a unique colour 'limited run' or batch mismelt. I thought that rods that were called 'seconds' were the ones that were off-spec in important other categories like compatibility and/or appearance and/or composition.

Lisi · #10 2013-04-30, 10:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisdd

Not intending to be a hall monitor, but could we please keep this thread on topic? I know a lot of us are going to refer back to this page to keep up with any changes. Having discussions about 96 is going to be counter productive.

Well, Uroboros doesn't just make the 104 clear. They also don't just make glass for lampworking. Since we now have a representative for Uroboros posting in the forums, this is a good opportunity to let them know that many lampworkers would like future updates (right here on LE) on the new colors in 96 COE. A new thread on this topic would be a good place to discuss our "wants" as well.

Thanks, Shawnette! I will ask Jamey from Howaco to check on ordering the new colors from Uroboros. I'll sign up for the newsletter too.

NOW...back to the scheduled program.

greghumphrey · #11 2013-05-01, 5:47am

Hello,
I purchased 3 pounds of the new uroboros clear. It was so full of little air bubbles I couldn't use it for encasing. It was an error purchasing so much of a new glass, but the fact the person I bought it from would send out glass looking the way it did was educational in itself (a tad bitter here). Anyways once I get the sense the air bubble thing is fixed I will try it again

. Always looking for good clears and if the characteristics of it are good enough the price is not a breaker.

Elizabeth Beads · #12 2013-05-01, 6:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelanieG

I love the Uroboros 104 Clear noodles that I have. I haven't had any compatibility issues with it yet but I think everything I have is from one specific batch. I understand that some people have experienced problems with a newer batch of Uroboros 104 Clear that they did not have with a previous batch, but that does not seem to be addressed in the OP. Is my understanding incorrect?

Is the term 'odd lot' something that there is an industry standard definition for? The definition in this thread is different from what we've seen from other 104 COE Glass Manufacturers. My understanding was that an 'odd lot' was a unique colour 'limited run' or batch mismelt. I thought that rods that were called 'seconds' were the ones that were off-spec in important other categories like compatibility and/or appearance and/or composition.

Well spoken Melanie. My first two orders of URO104 were lovely, the third is where I started having cracking issues. Purchases were from 3 different vendors. No scum or bubbles, just incompatibility in the third batch.

I don't think most bead makers are shocked or outraged about the occasional crack. It happens. I think the problem is when you see cracking consistently that you are not seeing with other clears. I had epic compatibility cracks with the third batch, especially with Messy Tuxedo.

And I agree that Odds are unique colors or rods that may be short or fat or thin but on-spec. Rods with scum and bubbles should be designated as Seconds.

Finally, thanks Eric for speaking up and beginning to address the issue. I'll continue to use my URO104 but only as both the base and the encasement, with a thin layer of other colors in between.

Liz

istandalone24/7 · #13 2013-05-01, 11:00am

the replacement bundle i got seems to be much better. there are a few bubbles in it, and a few rods don't feel round (odds?) but the glass seems very resistant to scumming....which in 104 clear is imo the most important part.

bbisker · #14 2013-05-01, 11:40am

You indicated that"odds" are meant for students or practice pieces but does that mean I can expect compatability issues. I bought some "odds" at Las Vegas and was not given a clear explanation. I expected them to be the same as seconds, meaning some scratches and odd sizes. I have 6 lbs that I intended to use as a base for beads and occasionally to encase small beads. However, if there are possible compatability issues I'd like to return at least the unopened 3 lbs for credit.

PaulaD · #15 2013-05-01, 12:43pm

Just a comment. If you bought from me you did not buy odds or seconds. I didn't buy odds or seconds to resell. When I do sell odds or seconds it is clearly labeled on my website. Paula

smpalmer85 · #16 2013-05-01, 1:07pm

thanks flamedame - good to know. I really liked my lauscha order from you (though it needed a bit of washing

)

Uroboros Glass · #17 2013-05-10, 1:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbisker

You indicated that"odds" are meant for students or practice pieces but does that mean I can expect compatability issues. I bought some "odds" at Las Vegas and was not given a clear explanation. I expected them to be the same as seconds, meaning some scratches and odd sizes. I have 6 lbs that I intended to use as a base for beads and occasionally to encase small beads. However, if there are possible compatability issues I'd like to return at least the unopened 3 lbs for credit.

OddRods are "odd" for bubbles, too thick or too thin, curves and other cosmetic imperfections, but they are always tested to URO104 standard protocol and are within specs.

essiemessy · #18 2013-06-05, 4:18pm

Maybe the 'odds' need to be renamed 'seconds'. That makes sense to me. 'Odds' means colour to me.

Well, having used up the first absolutely brilliant pound of 104, it was with some trepidation that I opened the remaining 3-pound bundle.
I've used two rods randomly from that bundle so far, and it's as lovely as the first pound.
I have my fingers well and truly crossed that the rest of that bundle is good.

Ekkie, have you tried more of yours? Would I be right in assuming we all got glass from the same batch? Or do we need to check with the vendor for that?

caliente · #19 2013-06-05, 5:00pm

Thanks for addressing this, Eric. I bought a pound originally and it was full of bubbles and scratches. Uroboros was kind enough to send me a free pound which I have not yet tried but looks like it is very similar to my first.

The noodles are to die for, though. LOVE them.

One question for you - if the incompatibility is coming from variation in different colours of, say, Effetre's COE, wouldn't I expect to see compatibility issues when using anyone else's 104 clear as well? It seems that the Effetre 104 doesn't have these same complaints, at least not that I've heard.

essiemessy · #20 2013-08-06, 8:18pm

Thankfully the three-pound bundle of this glass, so far, seems to be ok. More than ok. While it has lumps and bumps on the surface of the rods, it melts beautifully, and I'm happy with it.

However, like DH Zephyr, it doesn't etch. Which is fine for me to know, and luckily I discovered it while working on a SIS/clear project in which I wanted the SIS to etch, but not the clear.