Lampwork Etc.
 
Mountain Glass Arts

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


The Flow

Beads of Courage


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Tips, Techniques, and Questions

Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 2012-02-29, 9:46am
FiG's Avatar
FiG FiG is offline
Forms in Glass
 
Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 899
Default Rotate back and forth or continue turning in one direction?

I teach my students to use all five fingertips to rotate the mandrel back and forth. That is when they run out of rotation to double back. Each turn of the mandrel traveling at least 360 plus degrees before doubling back.
What do you do?
__________________
Michael Mangiafico

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Etsy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2012-02-29, 9:49am
glassymom's Avatar
glassymom glassymom is offline
Mr Brutus RIP
 
Join Date: Apr 29, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,369
Default

that is what I do........it feels best.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2012-02-29, 10:19am
swamper's Avatar
swamper swamper is offline
Who me?
 
Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Location: Hagerstown, Indiana
Posts: 2,284
Default

I turn the mandrel between my index finger and thumb while balancing the handle end of the mandrel in the other 3 fingers of that hand. I can only rotate toward me. I've never been able to manage rotating away from me.
__________________
From the Perimeter of the Great Dismal Swamp
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2012-02-29, 11:04am
rdbeads rdbeads is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 18, 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 91
Default

Index finger and thumb, like swamper, but I generally rotate away from me. It really does depend though. Sometimes I spin forward then backward. I guess I don't really have a set style. Sometimes I even use both hands toward the end of the mandrel in order to keep it moving, without stopping or slowing, in one direction.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2012-02-29, 11:32am
Dale M.'s Avatar
Dale M. Dale M. is offline
Gentleman of Leisure
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
Default

What ever it takes to get bead made.... Technique will be different for each individual.... A lot will depend on persons manual dexterity...

Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2012-02-29, 11:33am
Jngljnke's Avatar
Jngljnke Jngljnke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 31, 2012
Location: Houston (ish), TX
Posts: 283
Default

I rotate toward myself constantly in either hand. The glass travels a shorter distance from the flame to where I'm working it. I also occasionally use both hands on the same side, but still spinning towards me. For short punties or combating laziness I use this.


I've found the notched marver to be extremely helpful.
__________________
Gary
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2012-02-29, 2:42pm
PerfectDeb's Avatar
PerfectDeb PerfectDeb is offline
Unmedicated since '62
 
Join Date: Jan 18, 2009
Location: Hunter Valley, Australia
Posts: 5,907
Default

like swamper - but the one thing i tell people that im teaching is that it doesnt have to be like a propellor, slowly is better so your dots dont look like they've been in a high wind
__________________
Deb

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- my 17yo sons first novel


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- download, get organised, enjoy
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2012-03-01, 7:48am
Lisi's Avatar
Lisi Lisi is offline
one day at a time
 
Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: We are MOVING!!!
Posts: 8,319
Default

Back and forth as needed while working, and I spin pretty fast in one direction once the bead is out of the flame so I can keep it's balance in check. I do this spinning away from me while holding mandrel end with both hands, for a few seconds before putting in kiln.
__________________
You live in a world of money. Money means choices. No money, no choices. Welcome to reality.
Melody (Marlee Matlin) from Switched at Birth
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2012-03-01, 8:18am
glassactcc's Avatar
glassactcc glassactcc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2006
Posts: 5,540
Default

This LOL! I say the same thing. Slow down. Also, I teach to switch hands throughout heating and re-heating because it keeps things from droopping to one side. If you are doing a design or face, it keeps it centered. I rotate back and forth AND in one direction. Just depends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDeb View Post
like swamper - but the one thing i tell people that im teaching is that it doesnt have to be like a propellor, slowly is better so your dots dont look like they've been in a high wind
__________________
Cynthia

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2012-03-01, 8:34am
Elizabeth Beads's Avatar
Elizabeth Beads Elizabeth Beads is offline
Lampworkaholic!
 
Join Date: Apr 22, 2008
Location: Cornelius, NC - because weather
Posts: 5,158
Default

I always rotate away from me, unless I am melting in dots, then I rotate back and forth to keep them centered.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"And all will turn to silver glass, a light on the water, grey ships pass into the west." Annie Lennox
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2012-03-01, 11:16am
LarryC LarryC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,023
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
What ever it takes to get bead made.... Technique will be different for each individual.... A lot will depend on persons manual dexterity...

Dale
What Dale said. No RIGHT techniques.....This is a personal thing. I dont switch rotation unless the piece requires it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2012-03-01, 1:04pm
FiG's Avatar
FiG FiG is offline
Forms in Glass
 
Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 899
Default

Like Linda Campbell I rotate the mandrel between my index finger and thumb the other three fingers balancing the handle end of the mandrel. I agree with Dale as well in that there are no "RIGHT"Techniques. Whatever it takes to pull off a good bead is great. That being said I have found that rotating
untill your fingers run out then doubling back affords a smoother transition than quickly resetting your fingers so as to continuing to rotate in the same direction. Not only that by reversing directions one can choose when to do so making it more easy controlling
an even heating.
__________________
Michael Mangiafico

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Etsy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by FiG; 2012-03-02 at 10:01am.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2012-03-01, 4:22pm
essiemessy's Avatar
essiemessy essiemessy is offline
Happy Inner Dragon
 
Join Date: Dec 03, 2009
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 6,129
Default

Back and forth. I rock
__________________
Di - Essie's my wonderbike
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

rusticalsfreestyle on Instagram

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SRA# P107
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2012-03-01, 4:43pm
Lorraine Chandler's Avatar
Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
Salt Box Beads
 
Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
Location: Heading to Paradise
Posts: 4,161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
What ever it takes to get bead made.... Technique will be different for each individual.... A lot will depend on persons manual dexterity...

Dale
Exactly. Flexibility in teaching as well as dexterity. I personally use three fingers and a thumb, pinky is not used. I flip the mandrel over to better reach the opposite side of the bead if I have to or to get into tighter spots.

Learned from watching Corina Tettinger dvds.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2012-03-01, 6:08pm
FiG's Avatar
FiG FiG is offline
Forms in Glass
 
Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 899
Default

I believe that turning the mandrel only in one direction well is a very advanced technique.
__________________
Michael Mangiafico

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Etsy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2012-03-01, 8:50pm
2tumblingdragonz's Avatar
2tumblingdragonz 2tumblingdragonz is offline
Triumphantly Knit!
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2010
Location: Ninth Level Lightbody
Posts: 1,332
Default

I was taught to go in the direction of the gas, something about less stress on the glass.

Ya know how much easier it would be to be able to go back and forth.....I have learned patience from this.

But it's made me wonder, because depending on which hand I'm holding my mandrel depends on which was it spins, but I was taught to use the middle of the mandrel which I stopped doing while still on HH.

On the mini cc I use the centre of the mandrel because I can rest my arms and that makes one direction easier, otherwise I have to switch direction when I switch hands, does that make sense(to do it the way I was taught).

I'll admit, sometimes I do a quick roll back and forth, but I'm not selling beads, yet.

It's a question I've always wanted to ask a scientist or someone who has really studied glass, does the glass really have less stress if it is turned in the direction the gas in flowing.

and is that just too anal for a bead maker; how much of a perfectionist must one be?

namaste
Rowyn
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

"Only from the heart can you touch the sky"

"Be kind whenever possible.It is always possible
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by 2tumblingdragonz; 2012-03-02 at 11:24am. Reason: gas not glass
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2012-03-01, 9:32pm
FiG's Avatar
FiG FiG is offline
Forms in Glass
 
Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 899
Default

Namaste Rowyn I do not quite understand what you mean by "Turning in the direction the glass." Try making your life easy and spin the mandrel back and forth without a care to the direction the gas is flowing. When you are finished anneal your bead well in a kiln and all the stress pent up in the glass will be relieved.
__________________
Michael Mangiafico

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Etsy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2012-03-02, 9:05am
DavDes's Avatar
DavDes DavDes is offline
Spread the Sparkle
 
Join Date: Apr 18, 2009
Location: Venice, Italy
Posts: 106
Default

I just realized I had to think what I did to be able to know, go figure.
I turn my mandrel back and forth.
Once I take it out of the flame I turn it in one direction before popping it in the kiln, as I'm afraid it might distort.
__________________
Davinia

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2012-03-02, 9:10am
LaurieBSmith's Avatar
LaurieBSmith LaurieBSmith is offline
Sparkle Strumpet
 
Join Date: Aug 16, 2005
Location: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Posts: 2,666
Default

Well, I tried holding the mandrel steady and spinning me and it was OK until I had to unwind....

In fact, I hold my mandrel wrong and spin it wrong....but, I can spin in both directions...
__________________
Governor's Road:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kindle Edition by Laurie Byrne-Smith
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2012-03-02, 9:34am
Lorraine Chandler's Avatar
Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
Salt Box Beads
 
Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
Location: Heading to Paradise
Posts: 4,161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurieBSmith View Post
Well, I tried holding the mandrel steady and spinning me and it was OK until I had to unwind....

In fact, I hold my mandrel wrong and spin it wrong....but, I can spin in both directions...
Laurie there is NO wrong or right way to hold a mandrel unless you get very scientific about it all. That takes all of the creative juice out of it for me and it really ticks off my muse, she leaves....
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 2012-03-02, 10:28am
FiG's Avatar
FiG FiG is offline
Forms in Glass
 
Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 899
Default

I have found that when one is learning something new every move is considered. Then as you become proficient your body goes on automatic. More cerebral affairs such as following your muse can then happen unfettered by the ponderance of technique. Then as the practitioner achieves the high level of master every move is once again taken into account.
__________________
Michael Mangiafico

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Etsy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 2012-03-02, 11:23am
2tumblingdragonz's Avatar
2tumblingdragonz 2tumblingdragonz is offline
Triumphantly Knit!
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2010
Location: Ninth Level Lightbody
Posts: 1,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiG View Post
Namaste Rowyn I do not quite understand what you mean by "Turning in the direction the glass." Try making your life easy and spin the mandrel back and forth without a care to the direction the gas is flowing. When you are finished anneal your bead well in a kiln and all the stress pent up in the glass will be relieved.

Namaste Fig,

It was late, GAS,I meant in the direction that the gas hence flame goes. I guess it means that the gas/flame is travelling out away from the torch so that's the way the glass should be rotated.

I'll fix the typo...lol.....

I'm used to it now, after a year, so turning back and forth may just set me back....we'll see, what I find most interesting is I was taught this by a very experienced teacher who is somewhat radical but an excellent beadmaker and a fabulous teacher and yet no one else does it her way....

namaste
Rowyn
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

"Only from the heart can you touch the sky"

"Be kind whenever possible.It is always possible
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 2012-03-02, 12:34pm
FiG's Avatar
FiG FiG is offline
Forms in Glass
 
Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 899
Default

Hi Rowyn I am still at a loss as far as how you rotate the mandrel in the "direction of the gas". As the flame is projecting outward from the torch the bead would be pushed to rotate away from you if the fire was hitting the northern most hemisphere of the bead. If the torch was connecting with the glass that happened to be under the mandrel/hub, the wheel the bead represents would rotate toward you. If the flame was hitting square on I donno how you would rotate. I cirtainly do not wish to set you back and however you are rotating the mandrel if it works for you and you are making good beads with ease don't change a thing. What I have noticed is that a common problem people have when learning how to make beads is in their ability to rotate the mandrel. Many folk intuitively rotate in one direction. When they stop the rotation to reset thier fingers is when the troubles arise. The transition is not smooth there is a jiggle. Also the distance traveled is always the same so one half of the bead heats up all gooey while the other half is as cold as the dark side of the moon.
__________________
Michael Mangiafico

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Etsy

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 2012-03-02, 3:14pm
2tumblingdragonz's Avatar
2tumblingdragonz 2tumblingdragonz is offline
Triumphantly Knit!
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2010
Location: Ninth Level Lightbody
Posts: 1,332
Default

I agree with you. That was why I was taught to use the middle dip, so that one hand is always moving.

But I don't do that now, I have learned to compensate for the dip/jiggle/bump that occurs when I either switch hands or have a rotate transition.

I was just answering your question to say that I was taught this way but that doesn't mean I do it.

Best way I can explain in the direction of the flame/gas is that it is moving away from the torch so twirl that way.

I was also told by my teacher not to engage in discussions like this because le people will argue with me and it's useless to argue.

I disagree, I think all knowledge is good and I have found le to be a great place for the exchange of ideas, techniques, questions, etc. amongst the people who are here to learn and teach and enjoy such and each other.

I'm actually thrilled to hear that twirling back and forth can and does work.

I think that perhaps there are reasons that glassblowers do things that have worker for them forever. Lampwork has been developing and there isn't really one school. Alot of us are self taught and there are few books by even fewer people.

Truth be told, my teacher makes gallery pieces and follows the old laws of glassblowing. Do we need to be that careful as beadmakers? The stress of a bead vs the stress of a large blown piece--I have no idea.

I think we should do what works, what is comfortable and try it all.

I'm sure my next teacher will be completely different.

I hope this reads the way I mean it. Not argumentative, just to say, I repeated what was told to me and that's that.

Now I'm gonna go have a twirling party up down and all around.----If I can break the habit of always winding away.....however, when placing dots don't you have to sometimes come toward you--so see.....I really can't explain what someone else was so adamant about.

I'm not sure if this is even making sense, bottom line, I agree with you, unless you are centre dipping there is that jiggle, and centre dipping is not for everyone and a whole notha conversation.

I appreciate your input, Michael, very much.

namaste
Rowyn
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

"Only from the heart can you touch the sky"

"Be kind whenever possible.It is always possible
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 2012-03-02, 3:50pm
Kalorlo's Avatar
Kalorlo Kalorlo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 31, 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 358
Default

Huh, I hadn't thought about this. I think over here beginners are generally taught to continually rotate in one direction, we keep doing that until it's automatic, then once you know what you're doing you can rotate in whatever way will get the glass into the desired place. Yeah, there's the little jump as you run out of fingers, but you get used to it quickly.

I mostly go in one direction. Sometimes I go back and forth if there's just a little bit that needs evening out in both directions.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 2012-03-02, 5:44pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,023
Default

"less stress on the glass"....Hmm. Never heard that one but there is definitely nothing to it.
In my experience there is a lot of dogma in crafts like this that is not supported by fact. I use the techniques that work for me and I try to never stagnate but constantly try new things. That is how you progress in a craft.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 2012-03-02, 7:44pm
2tumblingdragonz's Avatar
2tumblingdragonz 2tumblingdragonz is offline
Triumphantly Knit!
 
Join Date: Dec 30, 2010
Location: Ninth Level Lightbody
Posts: 1,332
Default

It makes sense to me in the going towards the grain or away from. How much does glass mind? Who knows, but in a small bead I doubt it matters.

The flame being fueled by the pressure is going in one direction so why not turn the glass in that direction?

Again, I in no way wanted an argument, I was just answering the question, as someone who has only been doing this for a year, I trust what other who have gone before me have found works for them. I have not seen the documentation on any of this, so it's out of my field of expertise.

I apologise for the meandering of my previous post, I started feeling really sick and was trying to wrap it up. After some ginger tea I feel better.

I'd love someday to take a class with the masters from Murano and I'm thinking of going to Salem Community College, as much as I'd hate to stay in NJ, I'm thinking if I'm that close, there are some great teachers and opportunities there.

I would just love to pick their brains, the people who have been doing this for 30,50 years.

Not to insult any of the other teachers, I have a list over a page long of people I'd like to take classes with.

namaste
Rowyn
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

"Only from the heart can you touch the sky"

"Be kind whenever possible.It is always possible
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 2012-03-02, 7:50pm
essiemessy's Avatar
essiemessy essiemessy is offline
Happy Inner Dragon
 
Join Date: Dec 03, 2009
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 6,129
Default

As far as I know (which is very little, really) the only reason to go in the direction of the flame would be to keep the end of your rod faced away from you in case the end shocks and you wind up copping flying glass.
But sometimes I do apply glass to the mandrel while it's turning towards me, depending on what I'm doing.
I'd read on LE once that glass 'has no memory', so I can only assume it might have to do with striated glasses, like Mosaic Green, if you want a consistent pattern.
Just my musings.
__________________
Di - Essie's my wonderbike
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

rusticalsfreestyle on Instagram

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SRA# P107
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 2012-03-02, 9:18pm
Jngljnke's Avatar
Jngljnke Jngljnke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 31, 2012
Location: Houston (ish), TX
Posts: 283
Talking

Opening and closing tubing was one of my first goals set for me. That's probably why my mentor taught me to spin the way he did. When I was last on my torch last I used rocking and both directions spinning. It didn't make a difference with the pendants, as long as I didn't stay on the same spot too long while rocking. With the tubing rocking lead to me loosing my center while doing inside work. It also made closing the tube harder, as did spinning away. I've only ever made one mandrel bead, so my experiment only used punties and pulled points.

To me it seems like the most valid point has been made several times. We were all taught how other people do it. After you get the basics under your belt it wouldn't matter if you juggled while working, as long as it works for you.
__________________
Gary
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 2012-03-02, 9:28pm
Jngljnke's Avatar
Jngljnke Jngljnke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 31, 2012
Location: Houston (ish), TX
Posts: 283
Default

Oh yeah Rowan, I like how you slipped in the Jersey dis. I love a nice subtle slam.
__________________
Gary
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 3:04am.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 54.147.102.111