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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions. |
2011-04-24, 10:17pm
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Encased Aventurine
Anybody adding small amounts of aventurine to their encased items? I have used some NS Lochness in some of my marbles and I am seeing some amount of internal fracturing around that color due to incompatibility. Do any of these work encased?
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2011-04-25, 5:08am
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Pyromaniac
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That's fairly typical. The sparkles, and certain greens are notorious for causing issues when encased for many people. With some practice you should be able to get better results, though even people I consider experts have the occasional issue.
Long working times & long garaging during the annealing cycle are the bane of the Boro sparkle colors. Additionally, and this is where I think I've run into trouble, if they are worked in a flame that is not neutral to oxydizing it seems that they like to check, crack, fracture when encased as well. I could not get Unobtanium or Lochness NOT to crack under encasement until I got off the concentrators and onto tanked.
It may have been a combination effect - long working time due to slower melting + the slightly reducing flame due to concentrators. <shrug> All I know is that I'm having better luck working these colors on tanked.
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2011-04-25, 6:09am
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ManBearPig
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I have used Loch Ness inside marbles for years with no problems whatsoever. Same holds true for Unobtainium. Those are the only two colors that I have had success with (except OG Moss, which you can't get any more).
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2011-04-25, 7:11am
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Thanks for the input. I am using Tanked OXY and a Lynx but my working times are on the long side and I have garaged these for hours at 1050 as I worked on other things. Ill try Unobtanium next and see if its any more forgiving.
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2011-04-25, 7:17am
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Pyromaniac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
I have used Loch Ness inside marbles for years with no problems whatsoever. Same holds true for Unobtainium. Those are the only two colors that I have had success with (except OG Moss, which you can't get any more).
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I haven't had cracking issues since I switched to tanked myself (using my cuda - the lynx is still on concentrators) - I also use thinner layers, or back with another color in implosions so that it will spread out some.
Good Luck Larry. I'd love to see some of your work once you get this fixed, sparkle colors really add an extra dimension to most pieces.
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2011-04-25, 9:34am
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The Loch Ness is being striped on to the vortex surface along with striking colors and then the back is encased and filled in with NS Jet Black. At this point it does take quite a while to heat in the black and form the back of the marble. Jet Black is a lot stiffer than I expected it to be and takes quite a few heats to completely smooth it in. 96 COE colors for furnace work seem to be opposite in relative viscosity to Boro. The black we typically see is very soft and the whites and other opaques are quite stiff. Neither of the two I have made so far have completely cracked but I can see internal checking around the color and degradation over the space of a few days. Wonder how much of a contribution the annealing cycle makes as well?
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2011-04-25, 10:22am
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ManBearPig
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I wouldn't use Jet Black for something like that. I would use something like GA Black Violet. It goes transparent when it's blown really thin (like Moretti black) but in applications like that where no light is coming through, it will stay black. It melts a lot quicker than Jet Black too.
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2011-04-25, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
I wouldn't use Jet Black for something like that. I would use something like GA Black Violet. It goes transparent when it's blown really thin (like Moretti black) but in applications like that where no light is coming through, it will stay black. It melts a lot quicker than Jet Black too.
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Thanks for the suggestion Cosmo. That Jet black is beautiful but it is quite refractory I am working mostly off of a northstar Sample pack. How is NS76 ONYX to work? By the way, the marble in question is posted in the Marble forum here the day it was made. There is quite a bit more internal checking now.
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2011-04-25, 10:59am
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ManBearPig
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Onyx works fine. That's the main black I use. Actually, it's the only black I use, but that's mainly for convenience so I don't have to wonder "which black is this?" It's stiffer than Black Violet but nowhere near as stiff as Jet Black.
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2011-04-25, 11:03am
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ManBearPig
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Just looking at those pics and taking into account the color on those hands, I'd say check your flame chemistry. Looks like you are running a pretty reducing flame. Reducing sparkle colors can make the metals come to the surface and cause checking.
Crank that oxygen up and try again...
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2011-04-25, 11:21am
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Will do, Cosmo. I also may drop the propane pressure a bit as well. Working with 7 pro and 35 oxy right now. Still getting used to the mix on the Lynx.
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2011-04-25, 11:25am
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ManBearPig
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Don't worry about the pressure at the regulators. You have three pressure control devices at the torch...
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2011-04-26, 10:01am
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Pyromaniac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
Don't worry about the pressure at the regulators. You have three pressure control devices at the torch...
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LOL! I keep saying that to people...
...and they keep not listening.
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Chris Scala
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2011-04-26, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip
LOL! I keep saying that to people...
...and they keep not listening.
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Well, there will be an increase in volume of gas or oxygen at the torch if the pressure adjustment on the regulator at the tank is increased.
By the way, last night I made another marble with the same striking colors and Loch Ness but I changed the backing to Dark Amethyst, which greatly reduced the time to heat the color in. I also increased the oxygen and decreased the gas and tested to ensure that the flame was oxidizing while working the colors and minimized the time it was garaged. the checking still occurred. I think I will try a few other aventurines I have.
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2011-04-26, 12:59pm
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Pyromaniac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC
Well, there will be an increase in volume of gas or oxygen at the torch if the pressure adjustment on the regulator at the tank is increased.
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So long as you understand that your flame needs to be set at the knobs on the torch, not at the regulator, all is well. Fiddle with those bad boys to your heart's content - just make sure you're supplying the minimum needed.
As for your other marble, did you try running an oxidizing flame with the marble you made last night and still get checking?
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Chris Scala
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2011-04-26, 1:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip
So long as you understand that your flame needs to be set at the knobs on the torch, not at the regulator, all is well. Fiddle with those bad boys to your heart's content - just make sure you're supplying the minimum needed.
As for your other marble, did you try running an oxidizing flame with the marble you made last night and still get checking?
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Yes. Tried the things that were suggested and it is still checking. I have some other NS and TAG aventurine to try.
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2011-05-06, 9:54am
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Try the TAG Heavy Blue Leprechaun in the same way you did the others. We have had lots and lots of success with HB Lep in implosions, there is a 3/4 inch marble in my sunlit windowsill at home that has been there for a year and a half, THICK imploded dots of pure HBL, and it's still check-free. SO, if you are getting checking with the HBLep too, then you are definitely working too reducing etc. That stuff is pretty dang stable for an aventurine.
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"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is." ~ Chuck Reid
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2011-05-06, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebrand Beads
Try the TAG Heavy Blue Leprechaun in the same way you did the others. We have had lots and lots of success with HB Lep in implosions, there is a 3/4 inch marble in my sunlit windowsill at home that has been there for a year and a half, THICK imploded dots of pure HBL, and it's still check-free. SO, if you are getting checking with the HBLep too, then you are definitely working too reducing etc. That stuff is pretty dang stable for an aventurine.
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Thanks, Jenny. Made one with TAG Blue Stardust and it was fine. I suspect the LochNess is the culprit. Dont have any HBL but next time I get a chance to buy some color I will try it out.
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2011-05-06, 12:48pm
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Great, Larry, but I think we are still talking apples and oranges here... the Stardust has had virtually zero issues with any kind of encasement. It could still be a reduction issue. The HBL looks similar to the Unob, but has a somewhat higher success rate in these applications. There are definitely people who can encase or implode any of the problematic colors, but for most of us mere mortals it's a hat trick.
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2011-05-06, 1:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebrand Beads
Great, Larry, but I think we are still talking apples and oranges here... the Stardust has had virtually zero issues with any kind of encasement. It could still be a reduction issue. The HBL looks similar to the Unob, but has a somewhat higher success rate in these applications. There are definitely people who can encase or implode any of the problematic colors, but for most of us mere mortals it's a hat trick.
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Yeah...I understand what you are saying but I am certain it is still checking with NO reduction throughout the process. I guess I am one of the mere mortals, huh? Got any samples of HBL?
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2011-05-06, 2:14pm
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I wonder if this color reacts to the kiln temperature like experimental green. Cause I was having cracking with that in some implosions I was making. When I started to garage at 950f instead of 1050f no cracking occurs. even if it was in there for as long as six hours. After being at 950f for that 6 hours I ramped it up to annealing temp then slow cool down. I just got some sparkly colors in the mail I will have to see if this works for them I will let you know. Oh and by the way I am working with two small oxycons with my lynx so my flame is on the reducing side also.
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2011-05-06, 11:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb tarry
I wonder if this color reacts to the kiln temperature like experimental green. Cause I was having cracking with that in some implosions I was making. When I started to garage at 950f instead of 1050f no cracking occurs. even if it was in there for as long as six hours. After being at 950f for that 6 hours I ramped it up to annealing temp then slow cool down. I just got some sparkly colors in the mail I will have to see if this works for them I will let you know. Oh and by the way I am working with two small oxycons with my lynx so my flame is on the reducing side also.
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Already tried to garage at 950f as well for LochNess. Still no luck with it.
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2011-05-18, 11:36pm
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Larry, where are you? We are doing a TAG booth at the DFO in Eugene on Memorial Day weekend and then another at the GAS conference in Seattle first weekend of June. We will have samples to give away at both of those shows. Come say hi and pick up a piece of HBL.
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2011-05-19, 12:46am
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He can do the origami
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Just adding one more vote for working the Loch Ness etc in an OXYDIZING flame before you encase and garage a longer time. I encase Loch Ness frequently with no issues.
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2011-05-19, 6:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebrand Beads
Larry, where are you? We are doing a TAG booth at the DFO in Eugene on Memorial Day weekend and then another at the GAS conference in Seattle first weekend of June. We will have samples to give away at both of those shows. Come say hi and pick up a piece of HBL.
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I will be at GAS, Jenny. Ill stop in.
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2011-05-19, 10:17am
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Save the Numbats
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
Don't worry about the pressure at the regulators. You have three pressure control devices at the torch...
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You have valve opening controls at the torch which change the size of an aperture. While this does affect the volume of gas that can flow through at a certain pressure, it's not the same thing as 'pressure control'. Only the regulator controls the pressure (limited by the tank or supply pressure) and adjusting the pressure certainly can affect the flame in ways that adjusting the torch knobs cannot.
What happened to Glass Alchemy's efforts to educate lampworkers about what is actually going on with certain colors?
Most boro aventurines contain chromium. The problems with compatibility are the same as opaque greens such as GA Clover or NS Jade. If I recall correctly, soaking at or above annealing temperature causes changes in the structure of the glass (what GA calls 'growing crystals'), raising the COE slightly, which causes checking, cracks and so on. You can think of it as the same process as striking silver colors (amber purple), only the change is invisible and instead of producing nice colors, produces incompatibility. That's why garaging at 950 produces better results than garaging at 1050.
Reducing those colors is a problem, too, as well as working at lower temperatures. Reheating and extended working times also causes problems. Work them in an oxidizing flame, and also get them hot as possible, like you're trying to 'burn the haze' off an amber purple.
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2011-05-19, 8:54pm
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Pyromaniac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juln
You have valve opening controls at the torch which change the size of an aperture. While this does affect the volume of gas that can flow through at a certain pressure, it's not the same thing as 'pressure control'. Only the regulator controls the pressure (limited by the tank or supply pressure) and adjusting the pressure certainly can affect the flame in ways that adjusting the torch knobs cannot.
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While most of what you've said is true, ultimately only the settings of the torch knobs affect the flame. Functionally, all that happens past a certiain point if you increase the regulator settings is the the torch knobs get more (too) sensitive to changes, making it more difficult to set a your desired flame characteristics.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Chris Scala
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2011-05-19, 11:01pm
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Save the Numbats
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Quote:
While most of what you've said is true, ultimately only the settings of the torch knobs affect the flame. Functionally, all that happens past a certiain point if you increase the regulator settings is the the torch knobs get more (too) sensitive to changes, making it more difficult to set a your desired flame characteristics.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'm not sure why you'd contradict what I posted, and then invite me to correct your post.
In my experience, the regulator settings determine the range of flame characteristics you can attain by adjusting the knobs. Yes, you can set it to be unusable in either direction, too low or too high, but there is certainly a difference between the low, medium and high operating pressures.
I think the effect is more distinct on certain torches. Herbert Arnolds, for instance, react to pressure changes differently than any other torch due to the complex way they work. Many people work with inline propane regulators on those torches, and sometimes inline oxygen regulators, since there's no other way to get the full range of flames from the torch.
My main experience is with GTTs, though. You can run a Mirage with as low as 25 or 30 psi oxygen, and get plenty of power out of it. At the full bore on the oxy, you'll have a somewhat lazy, but hot flame. If you increase the pressure to say 65, you'll have a sharp hot flame on the outer fire, but may not be able to duplicate the flame attained with the lower pressure setting. However, that flame was not attainable at the lower pressure setting.
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2011-05-20, 5:19am
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Pyromaniac
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The analogy I use is a kitchen sink with hot and cold taps corresponding to oxygen and propane. If there is "enough" pressure you use the taps to adjust and obtain every possible combination of hot, cold & flow - otherwise you call the water company (ie: adjust the regulators).
Thus my "contradicting you and then inviting you to correct my post". If you're taking that personally I apologize. I'm just trying to connect the dots here... so I once again invite you to correct any mistaken thinking on my part. Maybe for a very experienced user, what you're saying has valid applications?
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Chris Scala
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2011-05-20, 1:13pm
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Save the Numbats
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Sorry if I was being jerk-a-lerky (is that a good LE word?), maybe I read your post wrong last night.
Sure, but there's also the issue of flame chemistry and other details that are different for gas and torches vs. water. Picture the difference between high and low water pressure, for instance - water might just flow out of an aperture of a given size at a low psi, while at the same size with a higher pressure, it might squirt. Or be a rigid jet. The density of the flame, turbulence, velocity, etc. can be affected.
I agree that it's probably a detail for more experienced people in particular, not beginners, but on the other hand people should be aware that there's more to this than just having an adequate supply of gases at the torch especially when it comes to oxidizing certain colors, being gentle on other colors or dichro, and so on.
You might find this thread interesting on the Melting Pot, in which RJ Howard muses about his experience and opinions on regulator settings: http://www.talkglass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33133
One thing he states is "if you have to walk across the studio to adjust your pressures, you'll never get why you'd want to change them. but if you can adjust them right at your station, you'll experiment with them and get to know your torch better, and your work will start looking a hell of alot better", which is a good point. He highly recommends inline regulators so one can easily experiment with the settings. He's using a Herbert, though which are such weird torches... sigh, I miss mine now and then.
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