Implosion like heart?

[Lynne Smith]

Rachel, the Teddy Bear remark was uncalled for and very childish. Anyway been there and done it and did'nt have Steiff Bears crying and wailing about it and they were reproduction bears.
As for the rest it just beggars belief.
Two points:-
1. How any teacher who is selling her information to other people as a business can have the cheek to tell them what to do with the information I do not understand. When you buy something it is yours to do with as you please. By all means acknowledge the artist if you want but the minute someone sells something it no longer belongs to them.

2. Brent, I really think that your problem with Kevan is not for public viewing and stating on quite a few occasions now, if I remember correctly, that you dislike her is not constructive to anyone and quite frankly not something that I like reading about on the public forum.

Lynne S

[Miriam]

It is not true if you sell something, you no longer own it. As a photographer I can sell a picture, but I don't sell the ownership. I sell the lease of use of the photo for a certain use and a certain time. The copyright stays with me, unless I make a written contract signing over the ownership.

[suzanne]

Lynne I don't think Rachel meant that in a snarky nasty way, at least I didn't pick up on that but then again, I don't pick up on a lot of things lately....

[Maria Louisa]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Sherry, you have been so nice. It's refreshing to see you handle this as well as you have. You have taken a situation where some folks may not have shown you the respect you deserve and have handled it with grace. You have shown a calm approach that most artists would not be capable of, if this was a technique they had developed. You have some serious cool points in my book.

A note to everybody trying to figure this out... this is a very specific technique Sherry has come up with. It has taken her much time and thought to develop such a unique bead. Ask yourself what level of respect you would like to have from other bead makers if and when you come up with something like this... and act accordingly. Sherry has said she will share her technique and is writing a tutorial. I hope that everyone who uses this technique will purchase it, if she decides to charge for it. People should also give her credit for coming up with the design / technique when you sell the ones you make. She deserves to be recognized as the inspiration for the beads posted here... and I hope she fills all her classes and sells a ton of her tutorials. Something like this doesn't come along every day... please let her generous spirit and talent bring her everything she deserves...

Much love and happy torching...

I could said this better.
Sherry, he's right in every way.
You're a great person and handled this very gracefully.

I'm glad though that some people use this technique in a different style of beads than Sherry does, like Kevan.
I like her beads, and I think she isn't making a duplicate 'Sherrybead' like some others do.
It was the first thing I thought when I saw Kevan's first bead in this thread, hé, a Kevan bead using Sherry's technique.
And since she didn't know that this was Sherry's technique to begin with because everyone talked in this thread about Anouk's meshtechnique in the hearts, I don't think anyone has to think bad of her for trying out the coppermesh which she has at home for such a long time.

[Lynne Smith]

Miriam, I'm not sure what you mean. If you took a photograph and framed it and sold it to me I would own that photograph. I would not own the negative, in the days there were negatives, but I would own that particular photograph. With lessons, it is slightly different. But if you taught someone, for money, to take photographs in a particular way I cannot see how you would have the right to tell them what type of photographs they could take and if they wanted to pass on the knowledge I don't think that you could justifiable stop that either.
Suzanne, there is no other way to take the remark than what I did. It certainly was'nt said in a caring, concerned way.
Lynne S

[suzanne]

I'm sorry Lynne, like I said, I miss a lot these days

[Miriam]

I didn't mean this topic to go in an other direction, but a lot of people don't know their work (for instance photo's) are protected by law. Maybe the information on this page will enlighten what I mean: http://www.copyrightwitness.com/prot...aphy_copyright

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

There's really no need to take this to extremes and feel like there's nothing anybody can learn. There's a ton of tutorials posted here, in books, in magazines and on video that people can learn from for little to no money. No expensive classes needed for that or experimenting at home. The problem I see with this thread is the writing of an online tutorial that in my opinion should have been left to Sherry.

I was suggesting that we give each other some space and respect a project that Sherry is in the process of doing. All I said is that everything doesn't have to be a free for all... that we could handle things as a community, in a way that people don't feel hurt over.

Nobody has to listen to me... everybody can do what ever they want. I realize I'm not the boss of anybody but myself. Others can choose to pick up their ball and go home, keep right on doing what they're doing or maybe some will see my point.

In my opinion, if we want great tutorials to keep flowing, we've all got to treat the people we want to learn from, as well as we can. Professional courtesy will help us all in the long run. I hope that makes sense...

I really should have stayed in the shopping centres. And I really should learn to my mouth.

But I am still waiting to see this supposed posted tutorial. There were plenty thoughts and ideas and this is what worked for me but as for a full on tutorial I have yet to see one.

And you know what. Sherry pretty much looks like a grown woman who can fight her own battles. I have yet to see post a thing how she feels about this from her. Yet, many others seem to know exactly how she feels!! Assuming there is more happening behind the scenes than we are all aware of.

I can fully understand why newbies would run for the woods in this case. Between this and the other thread in the Family room this whole copy/technique/style/imitation/plagiarism is just confusing the whole pot.

If this had been a nobody. I get the idea that the LE Country Club would not be going after this so furociousley!!!

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by Lynne Smith

2. Brent, I really think that your problem with Kevan is not for public viewing and stating on quite a few occasions now, if I remember correctly, that you dislike her is not constructive to anyone and quite frankly not something that I like reading about on the public forum.

Lynne S

I didn't bring up that point, she did. She argued that I was some how hunting her down to pick on her. I wasn't. Quite the opposite. I try to avoid her. If you go back and read, I admitted I didn't like her after she brought up the fact that we don't like each other. I am hesitant to get involved in any discussion she is involved in. Occasionally I decide it doesn't matter, that some things are bigger than me trying to avoid her and I post. I know it's probably not going to be handled with a civil conversation. I figure I'll get called names. It's not cool, but it is what it is. People can roll their eyes, call me names... what ever they want to do. At that point, I normally become a smart ass... it's much better for me than letting name calling or rolling eyes bother me. I know why I posted to this thread and I'm glad I put my opinion on this topic out there. I was honest, didn't call anybody any names and I kept my head level. Others can behave as they see fit. Sorry that bothered you.

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by Starrr

Common sense would be seeing Kim's seahorse beads and wanting to try them to develope your skills. She posted a tut on the stinger technique that she uses, so go ahead and make stringers. To try and replicate Kim's seahorses and then post them, not cool. Worst would be to replicate them and THEN give directions on how you replicated them. Doing that is disrespectful to the person who tried to help advance a technique and just because someone is willing to help advance a technique, it doesn't mean you can run wild and duplicate it exactly.

Back to the common sense issue, 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you", use what you see, respect where it comes from and don't try to ride anyone's coat tails.

I'm sorry, if I work out something for myself and especially if I live in 'timbucktoo' and had never seen something like that. I have every right to tell anyone how I came to that point if I so wish.

What is disrespectful is if I took Kim's tutorial or Teresa's and passed it on willy nilly to anyone I felt like.

And as for the 'don't bite the hands that feed you'. I find that insulting!!

I am sick to death of the few who think they are Gods gift to beadmaking and are the only people who should be doing it. Who have no problem tearing other's peoples work apart in this forum without giving a toss how it would make that lampworker feel!!!!!

I think I've bruised my head enough on this.

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by ShellyD

I really should have stayed in the shopping centres. And I really should learn to my mouth.

But I am still waiting to see this supposed posted tutorial. There were plenty thoughts and ideas and this is what worked for me but as for a full on tutorial I have yet to see one.

And you know what. Sherry pretty much looks like a grown woman who can fight her own battles. I have yet to see post a thing how she feels about this from her. Yet, many others seem to know exactly how she feels!! Assuming there is more happening behind the scenes than we are all aware of.

I can fully understand why newbies would run for the woods in this case. Between this and the other thread in the Family room this whole copy/technique/style/imitation/plagiarism is just confusing the whole pot.

If this had been a nobody. I get the idea that the LE Country Club would not be going after this so furociousley!!!

I don't see any ferocious attacks. This is for sure something that's hard to talk about. It's not a topic without emotion on either side. I'm sure the folks who participated in this thread didn't mean any harm and they probably feel like they're being accused of a something they didn't even realize existed. Human nature is to get defensive...

If you reread this thread, Sherry did say something. She didn't say "Hey, stop it!", but she did come in and say she was working on this already. What she didn't say is almost as important as what she did say IMHO. She didn't join in and release the cat. She didn't jump in and tell people how to do this right here and now. If it was OK with her, don't you think she would have?

Look at how this conversation went as soon as somebody said something... do you think she really wants to be involved in this? I know I don't.

As for behind the scenes, I will only post for me. I'll tell you how I feel. That's it. Anything that I do or don't know about other people who are capable of posting themselves can be posted by them if they feel like doing that.

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by ShellyD

I'm sorry, if I work out something for myself and especially if I live in 'timbucktoo' and had never seen something like that. I have every right to tell anyone how I came to that point if I so wish.

What is disrespectful is if I took Kim's tutorial or Teresa's and passed it on willy nilly to anyone I felt like.

And as for the 'don't bite the hands that feed you'. I find that insulting!!

I am sick to death of the few who think they are Gods gift to beadmaking and are the only people who should be doing it. Who have no problem tearing other's peoples work apart in this forum without giving a toss how it would make that lampworker feel!!!!!

I think I've bruised my head enough on this.

This is insulting to everybody who has shared more than you know over the years... for the pure joy of it! I don't know anybody here who thinks they are God's gift. I hope that a million people get involved in lampworking as it is the coolest thing I've ever done. We answer more questions than we can count on a daily basis... for free! I don't see anybody here trying to restrict peoples creativity... picking apart something that has already been done is NOT creative. Taking a walk in timbuktoo and finding something there that inspires and translating that into glass IS creative. Using any of the tutorials already available to build you skills IS productive. Picking apart a technique somebody is currently writting a tutorial on is counter-productive.

[ShellyD]

Brent for the first few posts all it would have taken is this.

"Hi Guys,

I'm so excited you're all so excited about this technique and I have even better news for you. I'm currently working on a tutorial and it will be out soon enough. The moment it is, I'll let you know.

All I ask is that you stop where you're at and not discuss this any further ................."

A couple of words................and this whole mess could have been avoided!!

And if anyone thinks this is an exact copy then I really don't know.




peace

[Mr. Smiley]

I guess some folks do need it spelled out. It makes me sad that artists might have to police the tutorials section and ask people not to pick apart something they are making in public. A little respect from everyone would avoid that, but hey... that might not be possible.

I don't think either of those beads look like copies and I haven't seen anybody say they were. Those beads were never something I was talking about. I think they rock.

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

This is insulting to everybody who has shared more than you know over the years... for the pure joy of it! I don't know anybody here who thinks they are God's gift. I hope that a million people get involved in lampworking as it is the coolest thing I've ever done. We answer more questions than we can count on a daily basis... for free! I don't see anybody here trying to restrict peoples creativity... picking apart something that has already been done is NOT creative. Taking a walk in timbuktoo and finding something there that inspires and translating that into glass IS creative. Using any of the tutorials already available to build you skills IS productive. Picking apart a technique somebody is currently writting a tutorial on is counter-productive.

I did say a few and not all

I have had lots of people share with me and for that I am grateful.

But in all honesty I feel more comfortable asking for advise in another forum where everyone is genuine. Where here you got to wonder if you will be treated with respect or told you're an idiot!! Trust me, when I saw Lynn's original post over here my honest thoughts were 'heck that woman's brave"

And just so we are all clear. This is how I feel!!

Right now this thread will sell a TON of those tutorials. And I don't need to be a marketer to know that either.

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I guess some folks do need it spelled out. It makes me sad that artists might have to police the tutorials section and ask people not to pick apart something they are making in public. A little respect from everyone would avoid that, but hey... that might not be possible.

I don't think either of those beads look like copies and I haven't seen anybody say they were. Those beads were never something I was talking about. I think they rock.

Thank you, that is appreciated. It's the same bead - and I had fun making it. It just came out of my head....I'm on 'I want to be a beach bum' kick at the moment. LOL

Brent what we need are a set of guidelines. What is considered copying and what point the line is being crossed. I have seen the word 'copy' used where it should not have been (any various areas of the forum) and to a newbie it can become confusing.

I know of another thread going where countless times many have mentioned that using a technique is okay as long as you are not copying the bead. It can become very confusing very quickly.

I love melting glass - I live for it. And I hope my integrity is as such that I have never tried to jump on the band wagon in the hopes of making a quick buck. I think my sales are proof of that

Love, hugs and peace

[ChristinaColligan]

Originally Posted by Miriam

I didn't mean this topic to go in an other direction, but a lot of people don't know their work (for instance photo's) are protected by law. Maybe the information on this page will enlighten what I mean: http://www.copyrightwitness.com/prot...aphy_copyright

This "C" word is concerning me - in retrospect we are all guilty of copyright violations .... b/c none of us here came up with the idea to wind glass on a mandrel and make a bead.

[Mr. Smiley]

I'm sure it is confusing to somebody that's new to this. Heck, it's confusing to those of us that aren't new too. We can't even agree as a community, all you have to do is look at the threads. That's OK, we don't have to agree to discuss something. We're all different and that goes a long way in guaranteeing diversity in our work. I have seen a trend to copy and sell what's hot... instead of creating something of their own. I truly believe that anybody who chooses that path is doing themselves an injustice. There is so much creative potential in every one of us... and that's what I'd like to see explored. Part of learning is copying for practice... but it's for practice... not for market.

To my knowledge, this is the first time a "how do I make this artists bead" has even gotten this far in public. I may have missed something... but I feel like this is heading in the wrong direction as a community, so I said something. I hope we can turn things around and find a common ground, where we're all happy. There's got to be a balance where nobody gets their feelings hurt... and I'm glad we're talking about it.

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by ChristinaColligan

This "C" word is concerning me - in retrospect we are all guilty of copyright violations .... b/c none of us here came up with the idea to wind glass on a mandrel and make a bead.

That's why I avoid mandrels... they are evil I tell ya!

[ChristinaColligan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

That's why I avoid mandrels... they are evil I tell ya!

We are all bad bad ... you didn't come with the idea of the glass rod either
*snort*

[Mr. Smiley]

Originally Posted by ChristinaColligan

We are all bad bad ... you didn't come with the idea of the glass rod either
*snort*

No, but I bought it and I hold it different than anybody else. I turn it with my toes... so I'm an oreeeeeegional! Leaves my hands free to drink coffee.

[ChristinaColligan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

No, but I bought it and I hold it different than anybody else. I turn it with my toes... so I'm an oreeeeeegional! Leaves my hands free to drink coffee.

as long as you clean the toe-jam off before you sell them you are doing great...ha!
Me I am a self admitted copyright-infringement-taker-learner-mandrel using-sap.

I use a secret ingredient in my beads though - oh I guess you want access to that...okay...I will tell, but you can't tell anyone else, it's love for artistic expression.

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

No, but I bought it and I hold it different than anybody else. I turn it with my toes... so I'm an oreeeeeegional! Leaves my hands free to drink coffee.

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by ChristinaColligan

Me I am a self admitted copyright-infringement-taker-learner-mandrel using-sap.

I use a secret ingredient in my beads though - oh I guess you want access to that...okay...I will tell, but you can't tell anyone else, it's love for artistic expression.

I might just need to steal that quote

"I am a self admitted copyright-infringement-taker-learner-mandrel using-sap"

And that secret ingredient, I love it

[Mr. Smiley]

All kidding aside, we are always going to share the basics. We are all going to be capable of doing some of the same things with those basics as our skill levels increase. Saying that we share some things, so everything is fair game doesn't sit right with me. Everybody is free to choose what they do with the basics and given the countless directions we can all go, I'm pretty sure we can give each other room to explore an aspect of what's possible without interfering too much. That line is going to be different for everyone. The people who choose to not give their peers respect, won't get much from me. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way in our community. I hope we can find enough common ground that we all keep sharing what we have discovered. We can all go further together than we can on our own and respect for each other will go a long way in keeping that open safe sharing alive and well.

[suzanne]

If this had been a nobody. I get the idea that the LE Country Club would not be going after this so furociousley!!!

I resent (sp?) this remark, I am not in any country club, neither do I need a club to state my opinion wich I think I did in a very polite way.

I am sick to death of the few who think they are Gods gift to beadmaking and are the only people who should be doing it. Who have no problem tearing other's peoples work apart in this forum without giving a toss how it would make that lampworker feel!!!!!

I'm not sure if this is even directed at me but it sure came across quite harsh. I have never torn someones work apart, and I haven't seen anyone here in this topic do such a thing ( unless off course I missed it yet again)

[Lynne Smith]

Well I can't say I'm sorry that I started this thread because I was having quite a lot of fun until this all turned sour but I am now bowing out. I have made my views clear if anybody cares and I'm not going to change and I'm sure those with other views are'nt going to change either so it is a waste of time and effort.
Sherry, how long do you estimate it will be before your tutorial is ready?
Lynne S

[Imelt4U]

Sorry the photography analogy is faulty. Buying a photo would be like buying a bead... a finished product. Now, if I take a photography class from you & use the techniques you teach to photograph the same subject... that's more in line with this discussion. And different photographers photograph the same subjects all the time.

Oh, I also wanted to say that just because my own philosophy is not to sweat this issue... not to put any of my positive energy into that negative place. That's not to say that I condone copying in any way.I hope it didn't come across that way. I try very hard not to copy for my own part. I try different techniques as they strike my fancy... I just don't worry if I've used a technique and then find out that my bead looks like a bead that's been made before. It's not intentional on my part.

I have nothing but respect, awe & admiration for other artists. That's one of the things I DO think is worth my time & attention. It's that respect that keeps me striving to be better. It's part of the pleasure of the art world.

And to those newbies who've been put off by this thread, I'd just like to say... don't judge these forums by one argumetative thread. If you explore the boards more you'll find a lively, friendly family here. Families fight once in a while... you know? It'll blow over.

[Carmen Isaacs]

Well I am not a newbie and I have been put off this forum big time. I get very distressed whenever somebody appoints themselves the "bead police" and start berating people on what is ethical and what is not and acts so self righteous. They always seem to be the same few people and they have their followers agreeing and paying homage to them, maybe this is the club Shelly is referring to. All I want to know is who died and put you in charge and where do you find the time for all this lecturing?? This was an innocent fun thread that was turned into something ugly by some very self righteous people.

[ShellyD]

Originally Posted by suzanne

I resent (sp?) this remark, I am not in any country club, neither do I need a club to state my opinion wich I think I did in a very polite way.



I'm not sure if this is even directed at me but it sure came across quite harsh. I have never torn someones work apart, and I haven't seen anyone here in this topic do such a thing ( unless off course I missed it yet again)

I think if you read my remarks I made a generalisation about the forum vs. just this thread. No, it was not directed at you, I don't even know you.

Yes, I am of the strong opinion that there is a 'country club, get-along-gang, in crowd - whatever you want to call it over here and it is very hard for newcomers to fit in. On another forum my posts are sitting at close on 2000 vs. the 100 odd here. Considering I joined both at the same time - one is far more welcoming and supportive than the other. If you don't like my opinion so be it. But I have a right to state it.

In other threads I have seen beads torn apart. No one can be entirely sure who made those beads but assumptions were made and heaven forbid 'WHAT IF' that poor soul had been reading that thread - even out of curiosity and had to read what was being said. But the 'mob mentality' takes over and nobody gives a hoot who they could potentially be hurting. If we all lit the torch the first time and made perfect beads what a perfect world it would be.

And I have asked myself countless times this weekend, why I have even got so involved in this thread. Maybe it is because there was a crowd of us here in SA who were leading the pack so to say in figuring this technique out. We DO NOT have the luxury of the brilliant classes available to most of you. We have grown up in a country where in most artforms people are ready in a blink of an eye to share their knowledge. Even here I think most of us are fast learning that is not the case in this artform. A few years ago if you asked who did lampwork in this country everyone would given you a look like that. This artform is so new here - it's still a baby. Everyone just wants to learn and soak and absorb everything they can. Apparently we have a lot to learn.

I am tired of apologising. I understand where Brent is coming from about respect and now I know and hopefully a few of my SA buddies have learnt as well. I just hope they don't go back into hiding because of this thread. It was great seeing them out and about.

I am not here to win 'brownie' points. I am here because of my love of glass. I made some amazing friends both here in SA, the USA and Australia thanks to these forums. But I am also tired of being paranoid and being scared shitless of posting something I think is original to me and potentially having it torn to threads. And everytime I post in the S & T I live with that 'stupid' fear because that is just what it is 'STUPID'!!

And I'll quote Lynn here because I think she has said it dead on:

"I have made my views clear if anybody cares and I'm not going to change and I'm sure those with other views are'nt going to change either so it is a waste of time and effort. "

I stand by my word and when that tutorial is up for sale, I'll buy it. Because no matter any of you think. I'm pretty excited about it.