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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
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Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them?
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63 |
51.22% |
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!!
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30.08% |
Who care? I just want to learn!!
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10.57% |
Huh? Students have rights? Since when?
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2008-02-26, 7:18pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 12, 2005
Posts: 1,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
And really, you would actually put your health in possible jeopardy to take a lesson from someone? Really?
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Given the right teacher, in a heartbeat.
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2008-02-26, 7:40pm
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
No, I'm not saying it's OK to have more. I'm just saying that there isn't any reason to go to the extremes you seem to feel are necessary. I'm saying that standards have to be practical... not perfect. I'm saying that the industry does regulate itself quite nicely and any more improvements should be handled with suggestions and education... not threats and blackmail. Of course, that's just my opinion... do what you want.
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Right, this is a normal, human thing. We all make our choices based on what's "good enough". We draw different lines, though, each and every one of us. I breastfed my son for over a year, he never had formula. My daughter, several years earlier, got formula, because that's what I knew.
More directly, to stuff on here: some people leave their kids alone in a car for a brief period of time, to run in somewhere. I've never done that, not until my daughter was a teenager, and my son still comes in with me everywhere. Too much risk, I think. Others disagree.
I light my torch with a bic. I put it in my back pocket when done. There's a long thread in the tips area about how unsafe bics are, even in back pockets, due to ambient heat in the studio. I don't feel that's a serious risk, and strikers hate me, so I use the bic. Others disagree.
I never eat in my studio. Others do. I only drink from a closed container, with a lid. Others drink from an open cup-I've read about it. Some have a TV in their work area, that's on. Not me. I just recently decided, after much deliberation, to add a clock to the wall I face, LOL, as I think pulling out my cell phone to check the time puts me at more risk of burns from the torch than having something distracting in my line of sight.
I think *most* people do the best they can, with what they know, within their means. And I'm not talking about drilling a hole in the wall for a line for a propane tank, though that one seems to come up a lot. It all seems overwhelming when you start tallying up what you "ought" to do to be safe, and that can bog the hell out of some people. They'll feel if they can't do it all right, then they just won't bother doing any of it right...and they'll work glass anyway.
You can educate them...and you can give it in a way they'll hear....or that they'll get pissed off about and ignore. It's really, really hard for people to *hear* things when the manner given pisses them off. Mike, you know this, from people doing it to you, and you see it on the boards, even if you disagree with it. Women also tend to have more issues with this than men, IME. Women may focus on the messenger and the delivery more than the message. Men may, too, but in very general terms, I think men are more likely to get over it and listen to the message. I think the women who focus on the messenger and the delivery will take a very long time to hear the message, if they ever do.
And that's why I think a "wall of shame" is a bad thing. Wall of Fame is great. Wall of Shame, well, that's going to just piss people off for the most part...and then many of them won't hear the message.
What I'd *like* to see coming from safety gurus is 1) a bare bones list of what must be in place to be marginally safe for couple of hour working sessions a couple of times a week and 2) a "if you really like this" list of what folks should do if they plan to work 20+ hours a week. I think a lot more folks would hear the message.
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2008-02-26, 8:11pm
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My opinion not needed
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Location: Bugs Bunny should'a made a left turn here
Posts: 487
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Excellent questions Kimberly... thank you!
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Robin
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2008-02-26, 10:05pm
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1) a bare bones list of what must be in place to be marginally safe for couple of hour working sessions a couple of times a week and 2) a "if you really like this" list of what folks should do if they plan to work 20+ hours a week
NOW, YOU'RE TALKIN'!!
**as for me, this would be great and thank you for your concern!!!
PS
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2008-02-27, 5:51am
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You know, to me the question becomes what is your environment. (do you live in an urban area, high traffic? NOx levels in the air are already higher in those areas) Are you talking personal studio or public studio? If it's a personal studio, are you working in a home, in a garage, on your patio, in a shed? Are there children in your home? Are there elderly in your home? Do you live in an apartment, condo or single-family home? How much do you love your dog/cat? How do you define "marginally safe"? How much risk are you personally ready to assume for yourself and the people around you?
To me the very first and completely irrefutable "must" is that bulk propane tanks MUST be kept outside if you are in a home of any kind. Leaking gas from a canister drops to the lowest point and pools out approximately 20 feet, and then can drift farther depending on air movement (at least that's the info I have found over the years). It's very hard to rid your home of all that gas should a major leak occur, and there are too many points of ignition within a home that could cause a huge explosion - take out your home and maybe the homes of your neighbors. Propane is nothing to fool around with!
Another must is with regards to oxy tanks, chain them to a wall, or whatever you have to do to keep them from a potential of having the valve knocked off. You don't want a 100 pound balloon zooming around your home or neighborhood at top speeds, crashing through walls and cars and people.
Have an up-to-date fire extinguisher between you and the exit you would take out of the room.
Wear protective lenses. Glass may not have wings, but it flies!
After that, only you can make the determinations. I don't think you will ever find anyone who will tell you it's okay not to have proper ventilation in your home where you will be working on a regular basis, whether it's two hours a week or twenty or forty. More and more is being learned about NOx, as I have seen in the last few days of researching. They are tying repeated exposure to excessive NOx to cancer now. (don't ask me what "excessive" is as I didn't find that) I didn't find a cancer tie-in in my research a few years ago, only difficulty breathing for a few hours after exposure. This is new information to me. Anyone that would say that it's okay to have exposure to NOx for a couple of hours a week on a regular basis would be crazy. Children and the elderly are particularly susceptible to exposure to NOx fumes, as are dogs and cats, birds, hampsters, etc. Assuming a risk such as that is up to you. Don't ask for a list because you think someone will make the hard decisions for you. Those decisions are up to you. Do your own research and come up with your own answers. Don't take my word or anyone's for anything related to your safety and the safety of those around you.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-02-27, 8:31am
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old fart
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Location: st paul mn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Brady
Propane tanks can be inside if they are strapped to a wheeled device (like a fridge dolly).
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maybe in canada, but this is not true in the USA for studios that are in or near peoples homes, like most glass studios here at LE are. there are different rules if your studio is in a commercial or industrial zoned area, but in a residential area, propane tanks larger than 1 pound are not legal no matter what you strap them to.
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Mark Wilson
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2008-02-27, 9:42am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 12, 2005
Posts: 1,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassartist
1) a bare bones list of what must be in place to be marginally safe for couple of hour working sessions a couple of times a week and 2) a "if you really like this" list of what folks should do if they plan to work 20+ hours a week
NOW, YOU'RE TALKIN'!!
**as for me, this would be great and thank you for your concern!!!
PS
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LOL...glad to address your concerns
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2008-02-27, 10:02am
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
You know, to me the question becomes what is your environment. (do you live in an urban area, high traffic? NOx levels in the air are already higher in those areas) Are you talking personal studio or public studio? If it's a personal studio, are you working in a home, in a garage, on your patio, in a shed? Are there children in your home? Are there elderly in your home? Do you live in an apartment, condo or single-family home? How much do you love your dog/cat? How do you define "marginally safe"? How much risk are you personally ready to assume for yourself and the people around you?
To me the very first and completely irrefutable "must" is that bulk propane tanks MUST be kept outside if you are in a home of any kind. Leaking gas from a canister drops to the lowest point and pools out approximately 20 feet, and then can drift farther depending on air movement (at least that's the info I have found over the years). It's very hard to rid your home of all that gas should a major leak occur, and there are too many points of ignition within a home that could cause a huge explosion - take out your home and maybe the homes of your neighbors. Propane is nothing to fool around with!
Another must is with regards to oxy tanks, chain them to a wall, or whatever you have to do to keep them from a potential of having the valve knocked off. You don't want a 100 pound balloon zooming around your home or neighborhood at top speeds, crashing through walls and cars and people.
Have an up-to-date fire extinguisher between you and the exit you would take out of the room.
Wear protective lenses. Glass may not have wings, but it flies!
After that, only you can make the determinations. I don't think you will ever find anyone who will tell you it's okay not to have proper ventilation in your home where you will be working on a regular basis, whether it's two hours a week or twenty or forty. More and more is being learned about NOx, as I have seen in the last few days of researching. They are tying repeated exposure to excessive NOx to cancer now. (don't ask me what "excessive" is as I didn't find that) I didn't find a cancer tie-in in my research a few years ago, only difficulty breathing for a few hours after exposure. This is new information to me. Anyone that would say that it's okay to have exposure to NOx for a couple of hours a week on a regular basis would be crazy. Children and the elderly are particularly susceptible to exposure to NOx fumes, as are dogs and cats, birds, hampsters, etc. Assuming a risk such as that is up to you. Don't ask for a list because you think someone will make the hard decisions for you. Those decisions are up to you. Do your own research and come up with your own answers. Don't take my word or anyone's for anything related to your safety and the safety of those around you.
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All good points, but the reality, again, is that most people don't take their personal situation/environment into account when starting this. Do we want them to be at least a little safe, or are we going to give out Darwin Awards nominations? I agree that people should do their own research, but it gets quite technical, and reality is that many people decide that some of the safety lore just doesn't apply to their situation, since they aren't melting glass for that much time at a session, or that many sessions a week.
Many of the folks who torch under 5 hours a week are probably not going to install a separate ventilation system. It just won't seem cost effective. They'll use fans and open doors and windows. I think it might be a worthy idea to suggest the best ways to make that better rather than leaving them to attempt to figure it out. And perhaps to state the obvious: Turn off your central heat or air, else you are sharing those fumes with your family and pets.
Personally, I've always worked in a separate structure from my home, with separate air. Currently my work room is up against my home, but it doesn't even share a wall, so it's separate. Our mobile home could be removed from its location, and my front and back porch, with my workroom attached would stay put. Well, we might have to remove some bolts from the porches, but the structures would stay standing
I did my research when I was getting ready for us to add on my workroom to our house....and decided to not connect my studio to our home's air supply/system at all. We did a lot more than needed on a lot of things, and planned my work area into the room before we even started on it.
I chose how many electrical outlets, what type (220 vs 110) and where to put them...so I wouldn't have to deal with cords running anywhere, or even have moderate risk of hot glass hitting a cord and melting through it. We added two thingees to the circuit breaker box for my room. I can't run a hair dryer and a little heater in my daughter's room without tripping a breaker, but I can run a 110 kiln, ventilation, AC, and a mini heater in my studio at the same time with no issues, LOL. Just one example, but you get the drift.
I had several local folks come in and help figure out what we were doing, to make sure it was adequate. And with all that, my floor isn't particularly safe-it's bare plywood. I have enough scorch marks on it that I cringe when I think about all the folks who are working on carpeted floors, maybe with a little mat of something non flammable around them, cause it's not enough, judging by my radius of scorch marks.
I just wish that the "safety gurus" could look at reality as well as how things should be. And try to help with reality without telling people they are idiots.
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2008-02-27, 10:38am
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boro color bender
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For a temp set for a hobby type person, a box fan in a window works pretty darn good if you position your work table right in front of it. The fan blows out of course... and the make up air can come from an open window or door some place behind you. A wind blowing towards the window from outside can counter act this set up, so it's a good idea to check that before you start torching.
I agree that a propane tank should NEVER be kept in a home studio set up. I've advised against this any time I'm asked...
Another good safety tip is to check your connections with soapy water or the prebottled leak detector stuff they sell with a little ball applicator. Make sure your gas delivery system is tight and free from leaks at every joint.
It's also a good idea to anchor your torch to your table. Or secure your hoses, so you can't snag them and pull the torch off the table onto your lap or the floor. I don't anchor my torch, because I pick it up and use it like a hand torch some times... but I make sure my hoses aren't a trip hazard. This is why I put an "or" in there. If you never pick up your torch, bolt that sucker down.
A lot of the basic safety stuff is just common sense. Avoid catching things on fire and don't breath the toxic crap you are putting in the air. It's not even close to rocket science.
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2008-02-27, 1:16pm
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William Hagy
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Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
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After reading over the past few pages here......I just wanted to add or more less reiterate the experiance I have had as an instructor for well over the past 7-8yrs.
Students SHOULD and DO actively have rights when taking classes from a reputable studio when considering a refund policy and or early cancellation. On the topic of attending a class and being miss-lead or given false information from the instructor I believe there is multiple levels of interpretation there and it can be both the (given the circumstances) instructors lack of knowledge and or the students inability to either take notes or pay close attention during lecture or demonstrations.
Out of each and every student I have had there is a "fall back" period where I simply pop questions at them as I'm working through Q & A's or during a demonstration.......I dont expect all the information to be retained such as annealing temps,regions of the flame, the btu of a specific burner....let alone what time of day it is or the temperature outside.
~I do want to know if the information is getting across to the students so they may benefit from the class and above all gain the knowledge in a positive learning environment aside from being able to perform the various techniques taught during class.
I have notice some students have performance anxiety others have no problem at all making mistakes all day long ~yet they are having a great time and laughing all the way.
There so many variations of learning as well as teaching and after on may sort thru the variables it may come down to "personal issues" based on the preconceived ideals of what the student wishes the outcome to be such as the instance where the student enrolls in a class for $300.00 and has the expectation to make a $1000.00 piece of art glass in return ~instantaneously......that day or overnight.
Aside from the levels of instruction or learning curves the student may go through there is what some instructors may face and that is a unhappy customer who's expectations far exceeded what they had been capable of performing in class yet they find out later on that what information they had gained in class had benefited them at a later date.
There is yet again the aspects of safety and health concerns otherwise know as occupational hazards....... that seems to be a "touchy" subject for some as far as what various teaching studios need on a public level. There is the opinion of the "studio owner" there is the opinion of the "instructor" and there is the opinion of whomever stops by and knows absolutely nothing other than the next person chewing gum on the street corner.
I have refrained from continuing on any further in the studio aspects of anything other than what has worked for me in putting together a public studio. ~ I can tell you all there is "costs" and there is "benefits" and when its done right.....only the benefits outweigh the costs in the end when I go to bed at night knowing every person who has passed through the studio ~someone had put their health and safety first.
In todays age of a lawsuit happy nation I think there is cause for interest in outfitting public studios and venues the best way possible aside from the most important aspect of the health and safety of both the students as well as the instructors.
There seems to be two people on this board that I would like to personally thank for the dedication,advice,technical data,applicable laws and otherwise helping so many individuals out there to put a studio together with proper ventilation and safety in mind and those two would be:
Mike Aurelius & Dale M.
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2008-02-27, 3:25pm
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Covered in glitter
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 15,680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly
I'm curious. I know they have to take a class to become certified, and I am sure that the class teaches them to use PMC effectively, but do you think the class teaches them to be good teachers?? They get more money, but are they better teachers than those that are not certified?? The whole certification thing seems dicey to me.
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I'm pages and pages behind in this thread but I do want to respons to this. NO. It does nothing to teach anything about teaching. At least the Rio certification doesn't. I know know about the PMC Connection(I think that's it) certification. Basically the certification teaches you how to do several techniques that build on each other to the final project. Then it allows you to get a discount on PMC from a lot of people. That's a great thing if you are teaching but it does nothing to make you a better teacher.
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2008-02-27, 3:54pm
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I have a question for those that say that it is the students job to make the decision to take a class at a sub par or unsafe location. How will the majority of these students know that they are doing this?
Remember that just about all beginners will have no contact with any of the online resources since they just saw a flyer at the bead store saying "Come learn to make these great beads that you have been buying from us! Only $195 for a four hour course." They show up on the Saturday afternoon and are ushered into a 12x10 room with a table and eight Hotheads. The instructor gives then a brief talk and demonstration of making a bead then fires up the Hotheads and they get to work. After an hour of so they open the door because people are complaining about the smell. They then open the outside door down the hall and maybe put a box fan in the door. At the end of the class the students are told how good they did and that they should sign up for an intermediate class and also come by in and schedule practice time or buy the kit from the store so they can practice on their dining table at home.
Maybe after a month or so if the beginner really gets into bead making they will go out and search the internet to find more information and run across these forums, or maybe not. It is possible they just meet up with other students and keep going to the store since it is a store and has to have everything set up properly right?
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Torch Ho... GTT Mirage, Carlisle CC, GTT Cheetahs, GTT Lynxes, and others on tanked O2.
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2008-02-27, 3:59pm
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Mary Lockwood
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norskiglass
There seems to be two people on this board that I would like to personally thank for the dedication,advice,technical data,applicable laws and otherwise helping so many individuals out there to put a studio together with proper ventilation and safety in mind and those two would be:
Mike Aurelius & Dale M.
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I know you didn't offer any piggyback rides, but I'm going to hop on anyway to agree with you. For all the interesting threads these guys have participated in through different forums, over the years, they have always cared about and promoted safety whether the people they were trying to help liked it or not.
I know how much Dale helped me personally when I was first getting started, and how many of his threads and messages I have printed out in my binder from back then.
~~Mary
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2008-02-27, 5:15pm
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Paul, just curiously, assuming your scenario, how would anything that is done by anyone make any difference in the scenario you have set up? If people don't search for information then you can't get to them to give them the information. There are no "beadmaking police" to tour every small town in the US to make sure that no one offers classes unless they meet "standards". There are no planes dropping leaflets saying studios have to have ventilation and this and that. Literally hundreds of these little places exist today, offer a class and then don't offer a class. offer a class again when they can find 5 or 6 people interested. How would anything we, the beadmaking community, do make any difference if the people don't seek the information? Once they take a class, hopefully the instructor is informed and will pass the information on to the students, give them printouts and suggest books to read and websites to visit, but no one can police that either. As has been pointed out, there are still instructors out there teaching who don't believe in annealing glass beads. There is absolutely no way to stop any of this from happening unless the student takes the initiative to be informed.
I personally today don't know any of these people you refer to who have never read a book or a magazine or met a lampworker, and had no information at all, but just stumbled onto a class that said "learn to make beads" and stepped in. I'm sure they exist, just as they did 15 years ago, but they are fewer and fewer. Every year we as a community make inroads into the knowledge base of the general public. We have a bunch of really good instructors teaching all over the world who give good safety information, along with good instruction on how to make beads. We are making headway, but it is not instantaneous and nothing we do would make it instantaneous.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-02-27, 5:55pm
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Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Apr 12, 2006
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 5,810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debkauz
I'm pages and pages behind in this thread but I do want to respons to this. NO. It does nothing to teach anything about teaching. At least the Rio certification doesn't. I know know about the PMC Connection(I think that's it) certification. Basically the certification teaches you how to do several techniques that build on each other to the final project. Then it allows you to get a discount on PMC from a lot of people. That's a great thing if you are teaching but it does nothing to make you a better teacher.
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Teaching is itself a specific skill. Entirely too many "instructors" naively believe that because you can do something, you therefore can teach it. Too many of those people become demonstrators instead of teachers and thus do a huge disservice to their students. If all a student needs is demonstration, they should just buy videos and not waste money on classes.
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Dennis Brady
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2008-02-27, 6:04pm
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William Hagy
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Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Brady
Teaching is itself a specific skill. Entirely too many "instructors" naively believe that because you can do something, you therefore can teach it. Too many of those people become demonstrators instead of teachers and thus do a huge disservice to their students. If all a student needs is demonstration, they should just buy videos and not waste money on classes.
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Hit that one on the mark!
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2008-02-28, 5:49am
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There are as many types of learning as there are types of teaching. Personally, at this stage in my beadmaking life, I would be more likely to take a demo class than another type. Once I see someone do something, I pretty much get it. I rarely want to sit around for two days copying what the instructor has done, because once I understand a technique, I like to take off in another direction using that technique. I like to use what works for me and discard what doesn't. It's usually trial and error at that point, and that I prefer to do on my own. So, if someone wants to offer demo classes, please let me know - I'll be there.
Of course, if it's a beginner's class, I don't think just demos would be a good thing.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-02-28, 7:21am
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I've found that with my boro classes I get a lot of folks who haven't done boro before and the techs are totally foreign... I usually demo... then let them try it. Now I've started to demo the more advanced stuff again, because they know where they had problems after trying it. They can watch for things that address their specifics issues or ask appropriate questions. I also watch them work. I'll lend advise about anything they need to do differently while they are working on their own. Things such as angle... placement in the flame... and even flame adjustments... just to name a few.
I'm like Pam though... I'd rather watch somebody do a tech I'm interested in... but I've done most off mandrel things before and already have a good grasp on the basics of off mandrel work. If I were to take an advanced soft glass mandrel class and the tech was totally foreign, I'd want somebody to teach it like I do my classes. I guess it all depends on what the class is and what you're able to grasp by observation alone.
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"Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley
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2008-02-28, 8:45am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: Yarmouth, Maine...home of the Clamfest
Posts: 7,693
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I'm one of those weird students who absolutely LOVES watching other people work--and I completely hate being watched--I'm anxious to the extreme in a classroom situation where I have to practice & "produce" something "right then" to duplicate a technique--I'm extremely shy (yeah, and I work retail, go figure) & that's the one area where I've never been able to practice the "step over it & pretend it's not me they're watching" is in a classroom/learning situation where *I'm* the student!
Probably why it takes me freakin' forever to learn something, huh?
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And if I laugh at any mortal thing, ‘Tis that I may not weep...” ~Lord Byron
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2008-02-28, 9:00am
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Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Apr 12, 2006
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 5,810
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The basic approach to teaching any activity or skill is essentially the same for teaching everything.
1. Explain what you are about to do.
2. Demonstrate it.
3. Explain why it worked the way it did.
4. Have the student try it.
5. Discuss what the student did and offer improvements or corrections.
Of all of these, the most important and most valuable is the last. The most important skill for an instructor is to be able to detect/correct the student's work and offer alternatives more personally suited for the student. Any instructor can teach a single way to do something - usually the instructor's personal favourite way. The best instructors are those that have a "bag of tricks" and can teach multiple ways to achieve identical results.
Given a choice between taking a class in a poor environment with a terrific instructor or taking one in a terrific environment but a poor instructor, I suggest chosing for quality of instructor is preferrable then chosing for environment. In a perfect world you would have both, but we don't live in a perfect world. If you want to take a class, take one from the best instructor you can find. You can build your own perfect studio environment later.
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Dennis Brady
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2008-02-28, 11:04am
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My opinion not needed
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Join Date: Oct 02, 2005
Location: Bugs Bunny should'a made a left turn here
Posts: 487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunamoonshadow
I'm one of those weird students who absolutely LOVES watching other people work--and I completely hate being watched--I'm anxious to the extreme in a classroom situation where I have to practice & "produce" something "right then" to duplicate a technique--I'm extremely shy (yeah, and I work retail, go figure) & that's the one area where I've never been able to practice the "step over it & pretend it's not me they're watching" is in a classroom/learning situation where *I'm* the student!
Probably why it takes me freakin' forever to learn something, huh? 
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I am exactly like you  I love to watch people work...I love to 'learn', ask tons of questions, take tons of notes - But ask me to do something while you watch? NO WAY!
You are not alone!
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Robin
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2008-02-28, 12:19pm
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William Hagy
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Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth
I know you didn't offer any piggyback rides, but I'm going to hop on anyway to agree with you. For all the interesting threads these guys have participated in through different forums, over the years, they have always cared about and promoted safety whether the people they were trying to help liked it or not.
I know how much Dale helped me personally when I was first getting started, and how many of his threads and messages I have printed out in my binder from back then.
~~Mary
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~Hop on anytime!! ~credit served when credit is due!
Have you been up to AK yet? I think you will fall in love with the studio environment and accommodations not to mention Deborah is a very kind and generous host.
~W~
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2008-02-28, 8:18pm
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Mary Lockwood
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norskiglass
~Hop on anytime!! ~credit served when credit is due!
Have you been up to AK yet? I think you will fall in love with the studio environment and accommodations not to mention Deborah is a very kind and generous host.
~W~
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I'll be there shortly. I'm super excited about it too, and a bit worried I'll fall in love with the place and not want to come back to Ohio.
I knew I wanted to teach there the minute Deborah started posting the in-progress pictures of the studio.
Can't wait to meet everyone and melt some glass together...wish it were this weekend!
~~Mary
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2008-02-28, 9:40pm
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maybe tomorrow
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Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Carmichael, CA
Posts: 3,098
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I just wanted to post a quick note that I had the first day of a two day Michael Barley class today at Arrow Springs. They have a fantastic ventilation system in place. I didn't bring my camera, but others in class did, so I'm sure some pictures will be posted.
As a side note. I've taken at least 8 classes at AS, plus assisted at several others. I've got allergies and athsma, and am typically super sensitive to fumes and odors. I NEVER had any problems in the past, but I hope their new system will eliminate any hesitation on the part of students or teachers in the future.
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Toni To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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2008-02-28, 9:49pm
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silver glass addict
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 13,002
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Toni - thank you for the report on AS new ventilation system! This is great news!!!
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Hayley
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2008-02-29, 4:40pm
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William Hagy
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Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth
I'll be there shortly. I'm super excited about it too, and a bit worried I'll fall in love with the place and not want to come back to Ohio.
I knew I wanted to teach there the minute Deborah started posting the in-progress pictures of the studio.
Can't wait to meet everyone and melt some glass together...wish it were this weekend!
~~Mary
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I'm really excited for Deborah as she is seeing the fruits of her labor in the coming months......I know what one person goes through while taking on such endeavors and it is comparable to floating on "cloud 9" when people fill up the air with smiles and good times!
~W~
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2008-03-01, 10:01am
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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YES - Mike You are so CORRECT on this !
I recently took what was advertised as an advanced class here in Raleigh - even tho I told the manager who signed me up that I was really barely intermediate and rusty too boot - she sed ohh its ok you will do fine !? When I arrived I was given a firewerks torch to use with a maap gas set up ... this was very new to me always had used much better torches in California (where i had learned and taken over 20 hrs at least of class/torch time) andtanked oxygen etc. I immediately told them this was unfamiliar but the teacher and others sed ohh you will do fine its "no different " THEN they tell me as I am handing them my $250 check that I have to anneal my own beads "here is a blanket" I had never done this EVER - to have to transport my beads home B4 THEY ARE ANNEALED (on a 30 degree blustery icy day) was completely foreign ! I live more than half hour from store ! But I am a trooper and proceeded to make some beads soon after the manager comes by and sez "ohhhh her beads are breaking ??" And the teacher does nothing nada zip zilch completely ignores me and continues his little talk with the other 2 students he already knew ! He did do a couple demos : like 1 on hollows, but never came by me to see how I was doing ! Not until I complained 3 hours & 45 minutes into the class do I finally get him to come over and ask him what is wrong, so he then tells me I need to put the bead into the flame more - then a few minutes later we are told to pick up and move it out - class over!! None of my 7 beads survived and I tried to get them to refund me something - but no dice - I finally realized I had to turn them into the BBB for those reasons PLUS they had no ventilation at all no extinguishers, no water buckets, fire blankets or anything - I realize I was completely mislead and taken advantage of - and it really ticked me off to think I was in danger probably too ! The class was at Beadelite and the teacher was Curtis Cecil, never will I go to that store or recommend that teacher !  The really sad thing is one of the regular people in here was at that class and has not supported me and now ignores me cuz I made a stink about this class - I guess she feels the need to support her local shop instead of " Do the Right Thing " but I know she is not the kind of friend I want anyway.... SO make sure you ask many ? b4 you take any classes people !!
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2008-03-01, 11:33am
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William Hagy
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Join Date: Jan 13, 2007
Location: Spokane,WA
Posts: 415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyredreams
None of my 7 beads survived and I tried to get them to refund me something - but no dice - I finally realized I had to turn them into the BBB for those reasons PLUS they had no ventilation at all no extinguishers, no water buckets, fire blankets or anything - I realize I was completely mislead and taken advantage of - and it really ticked me off to think I was in danger probably too !
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Stories like this is why this thread started in the firs place. ~sorry to hear you experiences there.
~W~
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2008-03-01, 12:31pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
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That's absolutely horrible! $250 for a four-hour multi-person class seems really, really high to me for the quality of class that appears to have been offered. Again, I wasn't there and can only comment on what has been posted.
I've seen plenty of people who can teach advanced classes on gas torches like you mentioned, so the type of torch doesn't bother me a whole heck of a lot. Not having annealing kilns is somewhat problematic in an advanced class, although I am firmly of the opinion that you take a class in order to learn, not in order to leave with a bunch of beads to take home. I am appalled that there were no fire extinguishers. If the class was not as advertised and they wouldn't refund your class fee, then I think you did the absolutely right thing.
I'm still not sure what good a "bill of rights" would have done after she took the class, with no way to enforce it. Would someone care to explain what you could do with this BOR that would have helped her in any way? I guess she could have presented the document to the owner of the bead store before taking the class and see if she agreed with all the things on it. She could have also printed out the guidelines from the ISGB website and asked all the questions listed there. http://www.isgb.org/education/standards.shtml
I am really sorry for your bad experience. Print out the Guidelines on the ISGB site and ask the questions before committing to a class next time. For now, it seems from what you have said that you did the right thing.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-03-04, 9:00am
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Wendy
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Join Date: Jun 19, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,143
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Kimberly (fyredreams) since you mentioned the teacher you may as well say my name out loud as well. I was in the class with you and have ignored you only recently not because of your complaints but because of the precise behavior you've just publicly displayed here and in your response to the other student in that class on the insider pages here: http://www.insiderpages.com/b/15240005563. I have all of the private message correspondence you sent me following the class and responded to each of your requests for information and questions politely and with what I consider the best of my knowledge.
The store charged you $250 for the class (which cost me $150) because you got a torch kit and glass as well as the class. While the Mapp gas and fiber blanket were unfamiliar to you, it's not unheard of and is clearly documented in the advertisement for this particular class.
It was almost immediately obvious that you weren't prepared for an "advanced" class and I wish personally that you had excused yourself from the class rather than sit through the entire class and complain a few days later that you didn't get your money's worth. I don't think anyone in that class got their money's worth that day because of the skill mismatch but that's my personal opinion. It's the second class I've taken there in the 6 months that I've been working with glass and he's a good instructor.
He has 30 years experience in glass work and should not be maligned for what appears to be a miscommunication between you and the manager of the store.
I do not want this to turn into a flame fest, but I do feel obligated to at least give my view of the events that occurred. I do not appreciate you stating that I have supported my local store rather than doing the right thing. Doing the right thing up to this point has been remaining polite and impartial since you never told me you were going to complain to the store or asked my opinion on what you should do to fix the issue.
Wendy
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Quote:
... Although that's probably part of what makes an artist a true artist.. you create things that you like and then wonder if anyone else could possibly like them without having seen the rest of the story that's still in your head. ~Me
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