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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
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Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them?
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63 |
51.22% |
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!!
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37 |
30.08% |
Who care? I just want to learn!!
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13 |
10.57% |
Huh? Students have rights? Since when?
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10 |
8.13% |

2008-03-04, 1:12pm
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ManBearPig
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Join Date: Jun 28, 2005
Location: Roanoke, VA
Posts: 8,540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluejeangirlnc
It was almost immediately obvious that you weren't prepared for an "advanced" class and I wish personally that you had excused yourself from the class rather than sit through the entire class and complain a few days later that you didn't get your money's worth. I don't think anyone in that class got their money's worth that day because of the skill mismatch but that's my personal opinion. It's the second class I've taken there in the 6 months that I've been working with glass and he's a good instructor.
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That is something I wish could be controlled in some way. I'm not commenting on this specific situation because I wasn't there and I don't know the parties involved, but I have taught and taken classes where the students were not all at the level they needed to be to be taking the class. One class I taught last year I had to basically scrap all of what I was teaching in class and go back to teaching the basics to most of the class. The class was labeled "intermediate to advanced level".
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2008-03-04, 1:18pm
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Mary Lockwood
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
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I haven't really taught any classes where that was an issue, but I have been a student in classes where one or two people over estimated their ability or under estimate the difficulty of the class and the rest of us had to sit there waiting for them to get up to speed. It has to be really frustrating for the teacher. You could tell she wanted to move on, but didn't want to be rude to the students who were behind. It is putting the teacher between a rock and a hard place because no matter how you handle it, somebody is gonna be disappointed.
~~Mary
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2008-03-04, 2:57pm
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maybe tomorrow
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Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Carmichael, CA
Posts: 3,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth
I haven't really taught any classes where that was an issue, but I have been a student in classes where one or two people over estimated their ability or under estimate the difficulty of the class and the rest of us had to sit there waiting for them to get up to speed. It has to be really frustrating for the teacher. You could tell she wanted to move on, but didn't want to be rude to the students who were behind. It is putting the teacher between a rock and a hard place because no matter how you handle it, somebody is gonna be disappointed.
~~Mary
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I wasn't the instructor, but I assisted at a class (advertized as intermediate/advanced) where there was one student who had been on a torch intermittently for less than a month. At first, the instructor tried to give her extra attention, but it soon became apparent that the other students would be the ones to lose out. So, she decided that she just had to let the student flounder quite a bit, and often just do her own thing. THere was no way she could begin to do even the preliminary cane work that would be required for the beads. In the end it was fine. The student apparently knew she was signing up for a class that was beyond her abilities, and just wanted to have fun. Fortunately, she did. It ended up being a good class for everyone, but if it hadn't been a seasoned instructor that knew the point at which she had to let this student just do her own thing, it could have been a very frustrating class for everyone else.
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2008-03-04, 3:18pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 04, 2008
Location: Fox Arkansas
Posts: 106
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good idea and I like it!
A reply to the Glassworking student's Bill of Rights: I like it but it might be hard to enforce to a T and keep a good reputation because most of the students get wilder the better they get and varying skill levels happen every class. I think your bill of rights could be helpful yet it all rides on the the experience level of the instructor and there ability to maintain a state of relative calm and control.
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2008-03-04, 3:25pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 01, 2007
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 1,749
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Is the level of the class ever defined in approximate number of torch hours under one's belt? I've spent an average of 20 hours per week torching for the past 10 months, and consider myself an advanced beginner. It might help both students and instructors if these subjective terms were quantified in some way.
As for taking responsibility for my own safety as a student, I went into the class I took thinking, "Beads, pretty, I want to make them." And that was the sum total of any knowledge I walked in with. I knew nothing about ventilation, where to store tanks, didy's, etc. Now it's a different story because I've made it a point to learn about all aspects of lampworking.
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2008-03-04, 3:32pm
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Mary Lockwood
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
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I'm not sure Rachel that it would really help. Some people are faster learners than others and 20 hours for one person isn't going to result in the same proficiency as 20 hours for the next person.
I think it would be more practical to state things like, 'must be able to make round, balanced bead', or 'must be able to encase'. That, personally, would give me a better idea of what level somebody needs to be at to get the most from a class.
Unrelated and likely unimportant, but for the record, it wasn't a glass class I was in that went down that way. It was a jewelry class.
~~Mary
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2008-03-04, 3:34pm
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Mary Lockwood
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2005
Location: Boonies
Posts: 5,831
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Toni, it sounds like that student was very gracious and the teacher knew just what to do. Glad it worked out.
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2008-03-04, 8:23pm
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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I see you have come out to play wendy - 1st off I never saw any "advertisement " for this class if there was please email it to me. 2nd I knew that I wasnt advanced and I told her that plus I was rusty AND I TOLD HER SO 3rd It was a demo ~ face it ! 4th Skill mismatch ? I never asked him for help til the end of the class I never took him away from you ONCE to help me, you got ALL his attention - he stood most of the time between you and the other student - wow, refresh your memory please. You are saying I am somehow responsible for your lack of "enjoyment" or receiving instruction ? oh my you are itchin to make a fight here arent you ? I feel sorry for you dear. I WILL NOW PUT YOU ON IGNORE - if you had something to say to me you should of done it personally, especially since I gave you the courtesy of not bringing up your name. It ALL boils down to this: I have been to enough classes to know that if you are learning something you must be able to experience the process with your own hands. with tools that create the best opportunity to learn the craft you are forking out $250 to receive !!. I have taken classes at California Colleges where we were there for 2 days straight learning each day 8 hours, plus classes with very very good instructors including one that was only 23 yrs old and at every place there were excellent torches, fuel and facilities AND ventilation systems PLUS fire extinguishers PLUS water NOT one of these was provided. I am sorry you have never experienced a different place than Beadelite, and if you had you would be appalled also. Sorry but you have nothing to compare it to, so your view is jaded. I am trying to figure out about what your saying my emails were... are you saying I was harrassing you or something cuz that is funny I sent you only a few emails after the class and actually only mentioned the class one time ? And dear so far as I am concerned, if you do nothing you are condoning them, ever heard of the saying "if your not part of the solution you are part of the problem "? Sorry but this will actually make it better for future students who go there and if I can save or prevent someone else from being ripped off or in danger from them that is a good thing. I'm sorry the teacher did not show me anything new, assist me in learning or provide me with adequate protection and you did not get it either. You were in danger also, doesn't that bother you - that they cared so little for you they put you in danger ? - I have spoken to over 6 people who teach and they agree. I hope they get their act together at Beadelite - I'm sure its been like that because nobody ever complained, I wonder if their insurance company knows they do classes with open flames with no ventilation or safety precautions ? hhmmmm
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2008-03-04, 8:37pm
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My opinion not needed
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Join Date: Oct 02, 2005
Location: Bugs Bunny should'a made a left turn here
Posts: 487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Lutman
I wasn't the instructor, but I assisted at a class (advertized as intermediate/advanced) where there was one student who had been on a torch intermittently for less than a month. At first, the instructor tried to give her extra attention, but it soon became apparent that the other students would be the ones to lose out. So, she decided that she just had to let the student flounder quite a bit, and often just do her own thing. THere was no way she could begin to do even the preliminary cane work that would be required for the beads. In the end it was fine. The student apparently knew she was signing up for a class that was beyond her abilities, and just wanted to have fun. Fortunately, she did. It ended up being a good class for everyone, but if it hadn't been a seasoned instructor that knew the point at which she had to let this student just do her own thing, it could have been a very frustrating class for everyone else.
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Sounds like you had a great teacher. It really is too bad when someone overestimates their skill level....it can bring the whole class down and put the teacher in a very uncomfortable position.
Thanks Wendy for sharing your experience in class.
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Robin
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2008-03-04, 8:48pm
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Wendy
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Join Date: Jun 19, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,143
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I resent the statement that I've "come out to play". I simply am not willing to hide while you continue with your attacks on this store in every manner you find appealing. The advertisements for the class were on their website and the equipment you were provided is clearly documented there.
You continue to go on and on about all of the classes you've taken and how much more experience you have in this arena and yet in the class we took you didn't even know how to dip a mandrel or apply the glass to the mandrel. That's not intermediate or rusty, that's beginner. There's nothing wrong with that, we've all started there. I just wish you'd been more honest with everyone instead of derailing the class with your continued declarations of how you love freeform and how you weren't even going to bother with round beads because "they weren't your thing".
As for me having something to compare it to, there's a perfectly good flameworking store here in Cary that I told you during the class I have been to and would recommend if you needed studio time or further advice. To that point you said that was way too far for you to travel and I agreed it was pretty far from Youngsville.
Bead delite does have fire extinguishers in the store and they did provide water for all of us. In fact, I brought my own container for water along with me and my tools. It was on the table in front of me the entire class.
As for your concerns over ventilation systems in the store, it's clearly not a flameworking studio and you can see that the minute you walk into the store. I'm not sure how that's a surprise to you or why if you were so offended by it you stayed for the entire class instead of leaving the minute you noticed and asking for a full refund.
The advanced class isn't really a demo. Curtis had several beads he showed us how to make, some were our request and some were his own that he said he wanted to show. The class is only 4 hours long I'm not sure what else you expected him to do since we spent so much time going over the dichro since you were so fascinated with it.
In no way did I mean that you were harassing me with your messages. I was simply saying that it wasn't until recently that I'd ignored a message from you asking me if I wanted to come to your home for a class and bemoaning my post in the tips section where I was looking for anyone with similar experiences in their transition from a single fuel torch to a propane/oxygen torch.
I felt like your message to me was condescending and it became obvious that you were still bitter over your experience at Bead Delite so I chose not to respond to avoid just this kind of confrontation. A decision I now regret since this is all so very public now.
I suppose I could choose not to respond to you but I feel obligated to defend myself and my reputation since I depend so heavily on this forum for advice and experience. I do not wish to lose the privilege of posting here but I'm not willing to sit idly by while you continue to rant about things that you provide only what you want to provide instead of all of the details.
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Quote:
... Although that's probably part of what makes an artist a true artist.. you create things that you like and then wonder if anyone else could possibly like them without having seen the rest of the story that's still in your head. ~Me
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2008-03-04, 8:48pm
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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I NEVER over estimated my skill level- I told her I was at best approaching intermediate and was rusty since I hadnt torched for months - she knew it and put me in that class ANYWAY ... and now I know why ~ to TAKE MY MONEY !! When I said I was unfamiliar with the torch and annealing situation they all (including Wendy) sed ohhh you will be fine ! So they are partly to blame also. The teacher is responsible to the students to provide assistance, teach AND PROVIDE A SAFE PLACE TO LEARN - he did none of that for me ! Of course Wendy is happy SHE had all his attention...
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2008-03-04, 8:56pm
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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omg - I KNOW HOW TO DO THAT I HAVE A MINI CC WITH OXYCON you are getting pathetic ~ talk amongst your friends Wendy I got waaay better things to do that be here doing this - how juvenile ? Oh by the way - we got 6 - 10 pieces of glass to work - you sound like it was a pound lol I am over this .. you are not worth arguing with for one second more Wendy !
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2008-03-04, 9:01pm
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My opinion not needed
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Join Date: Oct 02, 2005
Location: Bugs Bunny should'a made a left turn here
Posts: 487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyredreams
I NEVER over estimated my skill level- I told her I was at best approaching intermediate and was rusty since I hadnt torched for months - she knew it and put me in that class ANYWAY ... and now I know why ~ to TAKE MY MONEY !! When I said I was unfamiliar with the torch and annealing situation they all (including Wendy) sed ohhh you will be fine ! So they are partly to blame also. The teacher is responsible to the students to provide assistance, teach AND PROVIDE A SAFE PLACE TO LEARN - he did none of that for me ! Of course Wendy is happy SHE had all his attention...
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No disrespect fyredreams but I have seen your previous posts regarding your lampworking experience here on LE. It appears that you are still learning (which is great...we all are) - and that's great but it does sound like the class may have been for people a little more advanced.
A hothead/fireworks torch and using a fiber blanket during a class isn't that big a deal...at least I don't think. I have seen lots of classes advertised with hotheads...at least here in my area and at that same store the flyer's say that we need to anneal our own class beads. Then again it is at a store that is not specifically for 'hot glass'.
Heck, I've been lampworking for 4 years now and I don't know if I would take an intermediate class yet *shrug* I have no idea where I rank...
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Robin
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2008-03-04, 9:20pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 12, 2005
Posts: 1,260
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Perhaps teachers could require a prerequisites list on the ads for their classes, as well as an expectations for the student statement?
ie:
1) The student should be able to make a well rounded bead within 10 minutes under their normal circumstances.
2) The student should be able to encase a bead within 15 minutes under their normal circumstances.
I'm putting normal circumstances because if someone put me on a much hotter torch, I'd have issues, I'm sure. On my setup, though, those time estimates are wayyyy long, LOL. but it would give the student a very realistic expectation of what their skills should be before taking that class. Personally, when I see soft glass classes I'm unsure as to what I might learn or not learn, since I'm self taught. Now, boro sculpture, or just about anything with boro? Beginner!
Expectations:
-The student should be able to bring home several unannealed beads from class, hopefully to help them remember what they learned.
And then a serious note on there saying something that if the student overestimates their skill, the class may not be helpful to them, and to keep it in mind when signing up.
Ya can't sign up for ENG 102 without ENG 101, or a passing grade on the CLEP test, for example
Just a thought. Might help out on both sides with classes.
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I've got way cool handmade bags for sale in the Garage Sale area for a buck each!
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2008-03-04, 9:24pm
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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that is my point wiley !
I should NEVER have been in that class!!!? I was hoodwinked into taking it cuz they needed a 3rd person for the teacher to come from an hour and a half away !! She virtually told me so - the teacher wouldn't come for less than 3 and there were 2 others waiting for a 3rd student - I was the fall guy ! I believe now, even Wendy knew this. Funny but now I remember the manager telling me Wendy was " attached to the hip" to their store ! Those are her very words ~
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2008-03-05, 4:36am
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Wendy
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Join Date: Jun 19, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,143
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I'm not really sure why you continue to attack me personally. It's funny how things keep occurring to you to say regarding me and how now this is turning into some plan that included me. I have nothing to do with the store other than I'm a customer there.
As I've stated, I've attended two classes there with Curtis. I have put my beads in the newbie threads in the gallery here on a regular basis. They're there for anyone to see at any time and you can search on my name here on LE and find all of the posts I've ever made. At no time have I ever misrepresented myself or my abilities.
I'm not a vindictive person and I would think that all of my messages to you following Curtis's class would have demonstrated how much I was willing to help someone who seemed interested in learning as much as I was.
I see now that effort was wasted and continuing to defend myself against you is pointless. Think what you will about me, say what you want. I hope by now anyone that takes the time to read what's been said and review what I've contributed previously will see the truth and not judge me as you have.
I hope no one ever treats you the way you've treated me here.
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... Although that's probably part of what makes an artist a true artist.. you create things that you like and then wonder if anyone else could possibly like them without having seen the rest of the story that's still in your head. ~Me
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2008-03-05, 6:22am
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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Wendy you are the one who searched thru my posts to find this post I wrote - I never outed you - you did that all by yourself. You put yourself on the line for a place that put you in danger ...how sad. Of course I am upset about being ripped off for $250, wouldn't you? But actually you have also - you just don't see it cuz you have nothing to compare it to and I have. Also you have attacked me by lying about my skills but you encouraged me, numerous times, to stay in the class ? Yes if the places isnt a lampwork studio they shouldnt be putting on classes !? Duh I realize now that they needed one more person to make a class and I was put in it so the teacher would come - You have taught me not to trust people - I thank you for the lesson ~ Caveat Emptor
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2008-03-05, 7:26am
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Wendy
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Join Date: Jun 19, 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,143
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Now that I realize you have 2 seperate nicks on this site I don't trust you either. I suppose that makes us even.
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Quote:
... Although that's probably part of what makes an artist a true artist.. you create things that you like and then wonder if anyone else could possibly like them without having seen the rest of the story that's still in your head. ~Me
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2008-03-05, 7:59am
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 94
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BJGNC and FD bring up excellent points regarding classes:
Often, students who don't meet basic levels are allowed in classes simply to bring the head count up so that the class can run. This happens in all different venues from small (in their example) to large, such as Bead and Button. The promoter does not have to deal with this situation. It's left in the hands of the teacher, who has to scramble at the last minute to try to cover all the different levels. In the larger venues, there is often a TA, so as a teacher, you can have the TA spend more time watching/helping a student who is "behind." In a smaller venue, the student who is behind is often left there, such as what apparently happened in FD's case. I think FD's complaint should be acknowledged. She is the exact type of student this thread is about trying to protect. (I make no judgement whatsoever about how it went down, and the disagreements between these two -- that's for a different thread.)
So I think it would be helpful to quantify the meanings of "beginner", advanced beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Or whatever levels we could agree upon. I think it would be helpful if the thread could go in this direction.
Next would be getting those who are responsible for holding the classes to buy into those definitions, and sticking with them. Because again, all too often, they'd rather let in an unqualified student, than to have to cancel the entire class.
As a teacher, I have a "cancellation policy." If the class is canceled for any reason beyond my own, then the studio pays me a minimum agreed upon in advance amount of money. After all, I've reserved those dates, so I can't schedule anything else to make money on those dates, and I've already done a good deal of class preparation, including some out-of-pocket expenses for handouts. I may have already made travel arrangements.
Perhaps if more teachers had an up front cancelation policy, studios who are hosting classes would be less inclined to allow unqualified students in...my feeling is that the studios would have to be more serious about a class before they tried to offer it. And personally, if the studio does not agree to my cancelation policy, I won't risk teaching there. Financially, I can't afford the risk.
A separate (but related) issue then is safety. There's a balancing act that happens with somebody wanting to share the coolness of teaching others to make glass beads, with doing it in a place that meets basic requirements for safety. Also, this somehow all has to balance with the basic flaws to be found in capitalism -- you know, the bottom line, the almighty dollar. I think that is where a lot of this goes awry.
It's a lot more economical in terms of money to buy a window fan than to hire an HVAC guy. I understand we're talking health and safety here. This is another area where we can hash it over until the cows come home, but until there are some hard and fast numbers that quantify the danger, it's not going to go past a discussion. This would require some real measurements in real artists' studios IMO. Otherwise, it's just an abstract discussion. And I'm not talking about the easy calculations that are already known, such as CF in the studio and CFM of air that must be moved. I mean after-the-fact measurements. That is, you have a studio set up with some sort of ventilation. Somebody who is qualified to come in and measure NOx, etc., comes in to a variety of studios, and measures. Then we have a study that we can point to.
And unless there's some sort of agreement with this person to not spill the beans if he/she finds the ventilation or other safety issues to be a problem in a given studio, who's going to invite this actual measurement? How I have my studio set up right now is my business. I'd have to have quite a bit of assurance to invite somebody in to measure. Do I want a measurement? Yes. But am I willing to risk my livelihood to get it? No. Especially in these trying economic times. So I go on doing the best that I can with the knowledge and economics at my disposal. I have to be able to manage my own risk -- health, safety, fire, insurance.
Finally, how do I really know that when I take or teach a class in any given studio, especially one that has a ventilation system by all appearances, that the system is adequate? I don't know! How do I know their fire extinguishers will work? I don't! How do I know their first aid kit is fully stocked? Once somebody has all these things, how do I keep track that it's all in working order? Can't. I can barely keep track of myself.
Are there some things we can do? Yes. My feeling is that it starts with small stuff such as, a.) defining student levels, and b.) with setting up some sort of study for actual measurements.
I would also note that we are dealing with artists here. There is a long history of doing the art -- most artists don't think much beyond that. Nor can they. I think back to a vivid memory from my college days in the printmaking studio... of the TA leaning over the turpentine-saturated sawdust used to clean off the printing plates.... with a lit cigarette hanging off the tip of his lips.
I say this only to remind myself of where we're coming from. We need baby steps. If we try the whole thing at once, we'll choke and it won't work.
Best,
Patti
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2008-03-05, 8:08am
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 94
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Oh! And I almost forgot the most important point -- before we go trying to regulate and certify, I'd want the regulators and certifiers to be qualified. I mean, we've got several folks who have kindly taken on safety issues, etc., but what are their qualifications exactly, precisely? So we have to start farther back than even the baby steps I've suggested previously.
Best,
Patti
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2008-03-05, 8:48am
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California grrl
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Join Date: Aug 24, 2006
Location: In my dreams ~
Posts: 126
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thank you ditfd - I appreciate your clear and concise thinking ... I just want people to be treated fairly and to be safe
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2008-03-08, 1:02am
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Professional Troublemaker
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Join Date: Oct 31, 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditfd
Often, students who don't meet basic levels are allowed in classes simply to bring the head count up so that the class can run. This happens in all different venues from small to large.... So I think it would be helpful to quantify the meanings of "beginner", advanced beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Or whatever levels we could agree upon. I think it would be helpful if the thread could go in this direction.
Best,
Patti
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Hi Patti,
I agree completely, which is why I wrote up my own very specific definitions of skill levels and the importance of choosing a class for your skill level, which was published in the ISGB Bead Release Magazine a couple years ago, as well as on my website: http://www.schermobeads.com/classes/skilllevels.htm
My guidelines include various ways to assess your skill level, from how and where you acquired your experience, to how much time you've spent at the torch, to what you can probably do comfortably well at your present skill level, as well as what are issues you need to work on.
I'd also like to point out that in the case of someone taking a class they are not ready for, it not only puts them and the instructor in a difficult position, it can also put everyone at risk, when the instructor assumes that students will be able to perform tasks safely and without close supervision, when this might be a false assumption.
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Also, to speak to a point that was made much, much earlier in this thread, regarding the ISGB Standards of Education (that article on the ISGB website about what a potential student needs to know and ask questions about when looking for a safe class and qualified instructor): Someone asked how in the world the curriculum published as the ISGB Standards is ever supposed to be included in a 3 hour class!!??!!!
The answer is: It isn't.
The guidelines clearly delineate the difference between a 3 - 5 hour "Intro to beadmaking class", and a 10 - 12 hour "Comprehensive Beginning Beadmaking class". The curriculum is what could reasonably be expected to be included in a comprehensive ( 2 day ) class. And, it is very possible, it's the curriculum I teach from every time I teach my 2 day beginning class.
Even an intro class should always include safety issues in beadmaking! I'd hope an intro would also include basic glass information (COE, annealing, types of glass, etc.) and rudimentary beadmaking skills, and then the opportunity to watch and practice making a few simple beads. Hopefully, with feedback from the instructor, as well as encouragement to follow up with a comprehensive class for anyone who is considering taking up beadmaking and setting up their own studio.
Schermo
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2008-03-08, 6:01am
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I agree, Schermo, with your last paragraph especially, even an intro class should include safety issues, only I would say "an intro class should always include safety issues." I think many times people who take an intro class are told, oh, this is fun. Here is a torch you can buy for $40, a pound of glass for $10, a few mandrels, a couple of tools, and that's all you need. For under $100 you too can make glass beads. That's a great sales tactic to fill classes, but it always bothers me that people may not be told all the things that will allow them to make an informed decision regarding whether or not this is something they want to involve themselves in.
Regarding levels of students versus levels of instruction, I have a couple of stories that apply here. The first is when I was teaching a pre-conference class at the Arizona Gathering. I was teaching hollow beads/hollow vessels/hollow fish and one of the students in the class was someone who had never melted glass before. I talked with her and she really, really wanted to take the class. Luckily she was a jeweler and so knew about torches, which definitely helped. She seemed to be an intelligent person, so I explained to her that she could stay and I would help her the best I could, but I wouldn't take time from the others in the class to give her special instruction and she would just have to figure things out herself. I also explained to her that I hoped her frustration level was such that she would not be stomping out in the middle of the class because she couldn't do something. She agreed to all this and I let her stay. She was one of the best students in the class! Not only did she pick up on the techniques, understand them and figure out a way to accomplish them herself, but she took what I was teaching beyond and did her own thing with the techniques she learned! This many years later and she still makes beads. I see her at the Gatherings once a year and I marvel over how well she has done from such a shaky start.
On the other hand, I have walked into a class at a large multi-class venue and had advanced students for a class, and there amongst them is someone who had never made beads before. At this particular venue I spoke with the person before class and suggested she go to the desk and get a refund, which she did. The class participants were much happier and so was the poor lady who had been stuck in a class where she would have been miserable.
So, the two stories illustrate a point. The point is that I think when the organizer of the class doesn't do or can't do the appropriate screening of class participants, it is up to the instructor to evaluate the abilities of the students to make sure they fit into the class you are teaching before the class starts. If you don't believe a student is going to have the level of expertise for a certain class, then I think it is up to the instructor to let that student know and offer a refund and let her leave at least happy that you cared enough to let her know.
Just a question here, because even after all these years I don't have a full understanding of what differentiates an intermediate class from an advanced class. I would love to have some input from some of you.
My thinking tends to run to specific instructors when it comes to defining advanced. For instance, you can teach murini in a beginning class by having a student use a core of black and then cover it with a circle of white and pull a thick stringer. Once that is built they can chop it up in little pieces and apply to a bead. An intermediate class on murini might be how to make a flower or a fish or a spiral or a rose and apply them to a bead. An advanced class would be one with Loren Stump.
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2008-03-08, 8:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
Just a question here, because even after all these years I don't have a full understanding of what differentiates an intermediate class from an advanced class. I would love to have some input from some of you.
My thinking tends to run to specific instructors when it comes to defining advanced. For instance, you can teach murini in a beginning class by having a student use a core of black and then cover it with a circle of white and pull a thick stringer. Once that is built they can chop it up in little pieces and apply to a bead. An intermediate class on murini might be how to make a flower or a fish or a spiral or a rose and apply them to a bead. An advanced class would be one with Loren Stump.
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Although I understand what you're gettting at, Pam, I don't think we can include specific instructors when trying to put together a definition!  When writing definitions, I think it's important to give clear, quantifiable points which will help people place themselves in a proper category.
When I wrote my Skill Level definitions, I admit it was very hard to put into words what constitutes an "Advanced" skill level, other than to say the difference between intermediate and advanced has to do with precision, control, and hot glass skills that have been completely internalized. At the advanced level, these skills should have become second nature, and for the most part have been perfected. (One of the reasons I found it hard to define advanced any better than that is because I'm not there myself yet!) Once someone reaches an advanced level, I would think that it's their application of those skills that sets their work apart from others, rather than the skills themselves.
We might also include the concept of "mastery" for someone considered advanced, as opposed to intermediate. As everyone knows, glass skills can vary widely and rarely is someone really good at everything as they're developing their skill set. At the intermediate level, many people will be strong in some areas, but need to continue to work in others.
I guess I'd define an intermediate class as one where you need to have a basic level of experience and ability in specific skills (such as heat control, shaping, off mandrel work, stringer control, etc.) meaning such a class is certainly not for someone who has little or no experience at the torch, or knows how to do something IN THEORY, but can't yet consistently demonstrate some of those basic glass working skills.
I'd say that in an advanced class, a student should be expected to have reached a level of good to excellent ( ie: mastery of ) the skills which will be required in order to learn the techniques being taught.
I find often beadmakers are confused about the difference between skills and techniques. My definition of a technique is a series of steps or motions that can be taught in order to learn how to achieve a desired effect, whereas skills are the ability to control the glass in various ways that allow you to successfully perform those steps or motions.
Sorry to go on so long about all this, but as an educator, I'm fascinated with the process of learning. I think it makes a you a better instructor when you are able to put into words the concepts and ideas that will help others understand something better.
Schermo
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2008-03-08, 9:59am
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Thanks, Ann. You've made some really good points. I liked this one especially.
"I guess I'd define an intermediate class as one where you need to have a basic level of experience and ability in specific skills (such as heat control, shaping, off mandrel work, stringer control, etc.) meaning such a class is certainly not for someone who has little or no experience at the torch, or knows how to do something IN THEORY, but can't yet consistently demonstrate some of those basic glass working skills."
I think that is certainly a good guide. So, I think my question then becomes what is an intermediate class. How do we decide if a class is intermediate or advanced? Perhaps you can give me an example. If we look at applied flowers, can you tell me, to you, what would constitute an intermediate class and an advanced class? Or is it that the advanced class would focus solely on the applied flowers technique, whereas the intermediate class may have applied flowers as a segment of the skills taught in the class?
I guess, as I am typing this, the question becomes, to me, is an intermediate class a class that teaches multiple skills that can be applied to many different types of beads, such as applied flowers, casing, murini, sculpting, whereas an advanced class focuses on perhaps just one of these skills? Or can an intermediate class be focused on one set of techniques, such as applied flowers, but not go the extra steps to become an advanced class in applied flowers?
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2008-03-08, 10:58am
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Regarding the possible difference between Intermediate and Advanced...
I'm thinking that "Advanced" to me would be less to do with techniques/skills, and more to do with art. In such a class, I'm there to push my art in a possible different direction. I already have all the skills and techniques, or most of them, and I'm there to try to go at the whole beadmaking thing from a different angle. An advanced class might more likely combine glassworking skills with other skills, such as drawing perhaps. Or lapidary work. Maybe it's something on top of the glass working like that.
I like that idea mentioned previously about a "Masters" class distinction.
Best,
Patti
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2008-03-08, 11:37am
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Okay, Patti, I'll play. What's a master's class and how does it differ from an advanced class to you?
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2008-03-08, 12:09pm
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Not sure, but here are a couple of thoughts...
It would maybe involve some sort of peer or "industry" recognition. You mentioned Loren. It would distinguish a murrini class with Loren vs. being taught how to do a murrini in a class with, say me!
Which brings me to a second point -- a "masters" class to me hones in on one thing intensively, such as murrini's or glass painting, or pate de vere. It's something that goes beyond all the "basic" glass techniques, and takes one technique and blows it up into a whole class. But with somebody who's been doing that for a lifetime and whose work exemplifies that technique.
It's also possible, that a masters class uses glassworking as a basis, but that part is only a component, and that some other aspect -- that goes beyond the bead -- is the real emphasis of the class. So, just off the top of my head, a possible masters class would be "Journal Beads" sorta like those quilts where each little quilt is a journal page that could be formed into a book/journal. So in this case, each bead would document your day. Sorta like a bead that's a blog, and then those beads are grouped into some sort of monthly sculpture or piece of jewelry or something.
I dunno...maybe it's a class that's more conceptual than technique-driven, and that it's something that goes beyond the techniques -- the student is looking for something beyond technique. I know I could certainly use something like that.
Just a few thoughts for a classification beyond "Advanced."
I have a question for you and Schermo, though. What do you do in the situation where a student was allowed to sign up for the class by the promoter, and the student is unqualified. What if the promoter will not refund their money? What if the student insists on staying in the class? What if by not allowing that student, the entire class is canceled by the promoter? And you, the teacher, don't have a cancelation policy, so you and the remaining students are hung out to dry?
Best,
Patti
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2008-03-08, 1:35pm
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2008-03-08, 2:41pm
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In your scenario, Patti, is it the day of the class or how long before?
If it's the day of the class, then if the student insists on staying, there isn't a lot you can do except explain that they are going to get highly frustrated and that you can't take time away from the "qualified" students to help this one student catch up. Then, all you can do is treat them the same way as everyone else.
If it's a couple of weeks before, I would explain to the promotor that having an unqualified student in the class will hurt the class for everyone else and they should refund the money and look for another student.
Of course, that's what I would do. I'd love to hear what everyone else would do.
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"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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