Symptoms of bad ventilation?

pierces*designs · #1 2005-11-21, 1:07pm

I am curious. I was at a place this weekend where they had someone lampworking with no ventilation and not even a door opened at times. I left there feeling very very tired and spent the next two days feeling aches in all of my joints and over all lousy.

I think it was due to my exposure to unvented propane.

Thoughts?

MikeAurelius · #2 2005-11-21, 1:19pm

No ventilation can affect quite a number of systems in the body. It's not the "unvented propane" that is the problem, it is the unvented combustion by-products, mainly NOX that cause a ton of problems.

Here's a weblink for NOX information, courtesy of the ISGB: http://www.isgb.org/info/safety/nox.shtml

Dale M. · #3 2005-11-21, 1:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pierces*designs

I am curious. I was at a place this weekend where they had someone lampworking with no ventilation and not even a door opened at times. I left there feeling very very tired and spent the next two days feeling aches in all of my joints and over all lousy.

I think it was due to my exposure to unvented propane.

Thoughts?

Yep.. I agree with Mike, its not unvented propane, its the nitrogen oxide and carbon monoxide build up that made you hurt allover... It's the "hangover" from gas poisoning because of poor/no ventilation...

If they don't want to at least open doors and windows don't go there...

You may also want to drops a few articles from the web on them about the noxious gas buildup and related health issues....

Dale

pierces*designs · #4 2005-11-21, 1:48pm

Thanks guys. I put it wrong when I said propane. I meant the by-products. It made me very grateful I was such a stickler about ventilation at my house! That was a terrible few days afterwards.

raindance · #5 2006-12-15, 8:44am

I read this thread hoping to find some warning signs in case our ventilation stops working properly. I've read that nausea and headaches also result from poor ventilation. I'm looking for short-term symptoms. Does anybody know if sudden, unreasonable depression could be a symptom?

MikeAurelius · #6 2006-12-15, 9:12am

"Sudden, unreasonable depression" is usually a sign of holiday depression, not poor ventilation.

Immediate symptoms are: itchy burning eyes, sore throat, tightness in the chest, runny and burning sensation in nose.

squid · #7 2006-12-15, 9:31am

I get a bleach-like smell in my garage when I don;t have it vented properly. I do have a very sharp sense of smell, so I'm not sure how much others would smell it, but when I asked my fiance once if he smelled it, he said it was faintly noticeable to him, whereas to me, it was very strong. Of course, I was right at the torch too.

raindance · #8 2006-12-16, 2:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

"Sudden, unreasonable depression" is usually a sign of holiday depression, not poor ventilation.

Immediate symptoms are: itchy burning eyes, sore throat, tightness in the chest, runny and burning sensation in nose.

I beg to differ! I think I know the difference between Holiday Depression, which is reasonable...and sudden unreasonable depression. If you're just out there to try to make people look like fools instead of actually trying to help them, then you might as well keep it to yourself. This is a serious and reasonable question, so let's get serious, shall we?

The reason I asked is because depression is sometimes a syptom of toxicity. I'm quoting this example from a web page:

Repeated exposure to pollutants in the food and environment can result in accumulation of toxins such as lead, mercury, and aluminum inside the body. One possible source of exposure is dental fillings made from amalgam, which contains mercury. Norwegian researchers found that 47% of patients with dental amalgam fillings reported suffering from major depression, compared to 14% in the dental control group.4 Exposure to other toxins, such as lead, can also elicit symptoms of depression.5

http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/...elemental.html

Another example:

Researchers are finding evidence that depression may come from an entirely different cause—the University Pathology Consortium, a not-for-profit academic consortium founded and owned by the medical school departments of six leading universities, including Stanford, recently attributed some symptoms of depression to exposure to toxins.

Repeated exposure to pollutants in the food and environment can result in accumulation of toxins such as lead, mercury and aluminum inside the body. One possible source of exposure is dental fillings made from amalgam, which contains mercury. Norwegian researchers found that 47% of patients with dental amalgam fillings reported suffering from major depression, compared to 14% in the dental control group. Exposure to other toxins, such as lead, may also elicit symptoms of depression.

"Environmental toxins have only increased over the past 50 years and have been found in everything from grit on the ground to the makeup a woman uses to powder her nose. Pesticides, toxic mold and harsh chemicals cleaners have all become more prevalent in our country and also in many of our homes," says Dr. Harry Wong, Clinical Director of the Physicians Plus Medical Group, a medical clinic in the San Francisco Bay Area. "We often see patients who have feelings of depression and one of the first things we suspect is an environmental influence."

http://www.optinpr.com/gov/toxins1.htm

Depression is no joking matter, I assure you. This is not fun. My family has had nothing but good luck lately. This is extremely weird and just a little frightening to me. While this could be my "amalgam fillings" I'm serious about trying to find the cause. I provide daycare for my grandchildren in this house and I don't want them harmed.

I guess I should've just asked my husband to bring home a tester from the fire department when he called tonight instead of hoping someone might discuss this with me seriously. Duhhhh!

FlameDancer · #9 2006-12-16, 5:11am

Mendy, I don't think Mike was being a smart ass here or trying to make you look like a fool. There IS a lot of depression around the Holidays and you were fairy vague in your questions and symptoms. I think he was just making a statement that he didn't feel that depression was what you had, without the other symtoms. Mike can further clarify that.

I would like to say this though. If your depression is that bad that you are worried about your grandchildren's well being, I would certainly contact a doctor and try to get at the root of your feelings and the cause. Also, the parents have a right to know that other care might be in your's and your grandchildren's best interest.

I hope I didn't come off too harsh. I would say the same thing to one of my family memebers. I hope things get better for you and you can get your feelings back on the right track and enjoy your grandkids.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}

MikeAurelius · #10 2006-12-16, 7:49am

Krissa is correct, I was neither being a smart ass nor trying to minimize your questions. I suffer from depression myself, so there's no way in hell I would ever make fun of anyone asking a question about it.

Yes, metal toxicity CAN cause depression, but it is NEVER sudden in onset.

And as far as tooth amalgams are concerned, while I've not looked deeply into the issue, my dentist and I are embarking on a long-term process of removing my metal fillings and replacing them with composite materials as they wear out or need replacing.

Feldt's Glass · #11 2006-12-16, 9:54am

Debbie, Hope you are feeling better! I have noticed simular things when I have worked at other studios. I just couldn't understand why I felt so darn tired. Well when I got my own set up I started to feel much better. I do still have pre. oblems with my eyes being very dry. I think it is due partly of the dry conditions in the home. As far as the depression goes (other persones comment) I am sorry you are feeling bad. I hope you feel like yourself again soon. I would suggest trying St. Johns Wort. That might help get you out of what your feeling. If that doesn't do it though you should go and see your doctor. It might be hard to want to do but sever depression is usually a sign of a bigger issue and should not be ignored. Thanks for all the info guys!

raindance · #12 2006-12-16, 11:59am

I'm worried about my grandchildren being harmed from fumes.

Oh for petes sake! I've been crying at the drop of a hat, headaches daily. Even if I was crazy as a pet coon, I would never under any circumstance harm my precious grandbabies! have no one buried in the basement! LOL! I just feel as sad as if someone died and its sudden...so much so that its suspicious because I've never experienced something like this before. I don't know if heavy metal fumes are to blame. The grandchildren are 6, 4, and 2 and I don't want them breathing in toxic fumes if they're escaping into my house from the studio when my husband is working down there and I am babysitting them. But I'm going to discuss it with my husband and he can bring home a tester from the fire department and check for carbon monoxide and other possible toxins in the air in the house. Most fire departments have these, so if anyone else out there is truly concerned about the air quality in their homes, this is an option.

Editied to add: Mike, sorry...without smilies and/or other ways to tell attitude...your comment sounded glib. Especially as concerned as this is making me. I'm sorry about being mean! I've been walking and playing with my grandkids trying to hide the tears, because little ones might kind of freak out if they saw grandma cry like I do. I'm usually a very silly grandma. I'm concerned that my sadness doesn't make them sad or afraid and I'm concerned that my house has safe air for them to breathe. I've been taking depression meds for quite a few years and I am still doing so, very faithfully. I also take Prempro for hot flashes. I'm in the process of researching to see if my symptoms are also side effects of my medication. If so, I have a wonderful doctor who will help me out with finding alternatives to these meds. But I need to rule out anything that might possibly harm the kids in my home environment. I couldn't stand it if anything were to harm the little rascals! They're so precious to me!

x_phoenician · #13 2006-12-16, 12:09pm

Hi Mendy,

Regardless of what anyone's answer to your question is, yes it's a good idea to have your husband bring home that tester. And no matter what the readings, see a doctor anyway!

I've had problems with bad ventilation before, felt like I was going to pass out. And let's see... the plugged/swollen sinuses, headache, nausea, wanting to sleep too much, chest/breathing changes( almost like a mild upper respiratory infection). And after torching at a friend's house with a larger torch and only windows open and a fan going- felt like I had a hangover for 2 days. Some people are more sensitive to it than others I think. I don't know about the Depression/poor ventilation issue (already have it and it began before I started lampworking). I thought the dry-itchy eye thing was from not blinking enough while working at the torch though.

And at home, I never noticed a "smell" working at the Hothead, only knew something wasn't right when I started feeling sick. Now at my friend's home using the larger torches, I *did* sometimes notice a smell. That's when I ended up with the 2 day hangover symptoms. It can sneak up on you so easily without realizing it (notice for others reading this thread).

Hope you feel better soon!
(And thanks for the info about fire departments having air testers)

*Naos* · #14 2006-12-16, 1:02pm

I was literally gassing myself when I first started working with glass. When I had ventilation problems, I had headaches, extremely dry sinuses, sinus headaches and FATIGUE. Fatigue was the big one for me...I would be working and get suddenly sleepy. If you feel like crap in your workspace and feel better within 15 minutes or so when you leave it, you probably have poor ventilation.

FlameDancer · #15 2006-12-16, 2:57pm

Hi Mendy. Okay, whew...I'm sorry I took your post totally wrong about your grandkids. I just put it together wrong. Definitely get your husband to bring home the detector and see what's up with the fumes. Also, I don't know your age but could menapause be something you might be going through also? I am not a sappy, sad person but I am just starting to go through the change and I can tell that my emotions run the gamut and it's just the beginning.

Good luck to you and I hope you find out it's something minor and easily overcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindance

I'm worried about my grandchildren being harmed from fumes.

Oh for petes sake! I've been crying at the drop of a hat, headaches daily. Even if I was crazy as a pet coon, I would never under any circumstance harm my precious grandbabies! have no one buried in the basement! LOL! I just feel as sad as if someone died and its sudden...so much so that its suspicious because I've never experienced something like this before. I don't know if heavy metal fumes are to blame. The grandchildren are 6, 4, and 2 and I don't want them breathing in toxic fumes if they're escaping into my house from the studio when my husband is working down there and I am babysitting them. But I'm going to discuss it with my husband and he can bring home a tester from the fire department and check for carbon monoxide and other possible toxins in the air in the house. Most fire departments have these, so if anyone else out there is truly concerned about the air quality in their homes, this is an option.

Editied to add: Mike, sorry...without smilies and/or other ways to tell attitude...your comment sounded glib. Especially as concerned as this is making me. I'm sorry about being mean! I've been walking and playing with my grandkids trying to hide the tears, because little ones might kind of freak out if they saw grandma cry like I do. I'm usually a very silly grandma. I'm concerned that my sadness doesn't make them sad or afraid and I'm concerned that my house has safe air for them to breathe. I've been taking depression meds for quite a few years and I am still doing so, very faithfully. I also take Prempro for hot flashes. I'm in the process of researching to see if my symptoms are also side effects of my medication. If so, I have a wonderful doctor who will help me out with finding alternatives to these meds. But I need to rule out anything that might possibly harm the kids in my home environment. I couldn't stand it if anything were to harm the little rascals! They're so precious to me!

lenora · #16 2006-12-16, 8:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlameDancer

Also, I don't know your age but could menapause be something you might be going through also?

I was wondering this also. You mentioned you were taking something for hot flashes. Maybe your hormones are out of balance. That could explain the sudden onset. Just a thought, but I hope you feel better soon!!!

gatorlassie · #17 2006-12-16, 9:23pm

Has your doctor checked your blood sugar? Years ago I would start crying at the drop of a hat. This was very out of character for me. It was discovered that my blood sugar was low - fluctuations like a seesaw. Blood sugar can be greatly affected by stress. Depression I believe can also be a result of low blood sugar. Just a thought.

Gatorlassie

rosiescreations · #18 2006-12-16, 9:54pm

Be sure to have him test then go torch a while and have him test again.
Sometimes you get tingling in your fingers.
When you torch and get feeling sleepy go out in fresh air for awhile. See if it makes a difference.
I use depression meds and yours just may need to have them increased in dosage or changed. They can stop working as they should.
I have had that happen to me where I cried all the time. Just needed my meds changed.
Have you started any new meds. I ask that because the Dr. started me on Vytorin in May and I started to fall asleep at the torch and see things that were not there. Then I was dizzy all the time. I would get up make it to the fridge for ice and then all of a sudden I couldn't hear and everything would go black. This happened no matter what I was doing. This went on all summer. Couldn't drive very often. It got so bad I called an ambulance and went to the hospital. Cat scan, ect... nothing wrong.
Still going on till Nov. when DH and I got the flu. Neither of us felt like going drug store when I ran out of Vytorin. So I started to be less and less dizzy as the days went on.
I feel like a new person.
I hope you find out just what you need to do.
Good Luck

Kym · #19 2006-12-17, 12:59am

you should probably go to your healthcare person. Off the top of my head I can think of 10 conditions where depression and anxiety are amongst the symptoms and I am not a doctor. Doctors would probably think of 20-30 but first they would get some tests done so they could eliminate the less likely. I am not sure whether the air tester would pick up low level heavy metals so possibly another reason to stop thinking about it and see your doctor. A simple blood test would possilbly rule it out. Possibly a metabolic change is affecting your usual medication or something as simple as that.

Good Luck
Kym

raindance · #20 2006-12-17, 5:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindance

I've been taking depression meds for quite a few years and I am still doing so, very faithfully. I also take Prempro for hot flashes. I'm in the process of researching to see if my symptoms are also side effects of my medication. If so, I have a wonderful doctor who will help me out with finding alternatives to these meds. But I need to rule out anything that might possibly harm the kids in my home environment. I couldn't stand it if anything were to harm the little rascals! They're so precious to me!

Hi, Ladies! Yes, I'm 48 and going through "the change" but I'm on Prempro, so I think that may be covered. I'm feeling much better today, though I'm still having headaches. I get migraines, which cause me to feel depressed...or happen when I'm depressed...depending on circumstances. But my spirits are much higher now. Hubby has dibs on the tester for Tuesday and has agreed to test the house just to be sure. There's always a possibility of carbon monoxide from the furnace. It's only a couple of years old, but things can always go wrong.

raindance · #21 2006-12-17, 5:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gatorlassie

Has your doctor checked your blood sugar? Years ago I would start crying at the drop of a hat. This was very out of character for me. It was discovered that my blood sugar was low - fluctuations like a seesaw. Blood sugar can be greatly affected by stress. Depression I believe can also be a result of low blood sugar. Just a thought.

Gatorlassie

Yes! This is the first thing I thought of, because I've got borderline hypoglycemia. I tried snacking to bring it up, but it didn't seem to help. However, it can revert and change to diabetes. So I should have my sugar levels checked again. That can also cause depressed feelings.

Thanks to each and every one of you for your kindness & help!

Dale M. · #22 2006-12-18, 9:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindance

Yes! This is the first thing I thought of, because I've got borderline hypoglycemia. I tried snacking to bring it up, but it didn't seem to help. However, it can revert and change to diabetes. So I should have my sugar levels checked again. That can also cause depressed feelings.

Thanks to each and every one of you for your kindness & help!

IF you want to monitor your own hypoglycemia, go to drug store and get blood glucose monitor kit, you do not need a perscription to get one.... Same as for diabetes.... I usually check mine (I'm borderline hypoglycemic too) when I have a bought of feeling bad.... My body does not like it when my sugar level gets too low....

Also there is lots of information on web about hypoglycemia .... Also there are "Glucose tables" you can get across the counter at drug store if you need a quick "sugar hit" if blood sugar is to low..

Dale

Kitty · #23 2006-12-18, 3:06pm

Mendy,

When I am sick or overly tired, I tend to get depressed. I know how depression feels and the difference between that and just being down in the dumps.

So, I think if you are having a hangover from the fumes and headaches, for a prolonged period of time it most definitely could be depression as a result of your body being "worn out by toxins". When your body is off balance, lots of things can happen. I hope you feel better.

kbinkster · #24 2007-01-01, 9:41pm

I have hypoglycemia (diagnosed after a hypoglycemic coma). Whenever you eat a little sugar, always back it up with some protein. This will keep you on a more even keel. Also, many small meals throughout the day is better than three large ones.

It never hurts to monitor your blood sugar - as long as you don't get obsessive about it. I would only test mine when I felt "off." I learned to tell when the way I felt was caused by low sugar.

As for the depression/toxins link, like Mike said, metal toxicity can cause depression, but it does not have a sudden onset. I would look to other causes. You have given clues to a few different possibilities. I certainly hope that you find the cause and feel better soon!!!