Can I set up my studio in the same room with the waterheater and furnace?

caspertorch · #1 2006-09-25, 11:42pm

I have workmen coming early next week to build my studio area and install the ventilation, but I was just down in the room taking measurements/making plans and started reading warnings on my hotwater heater about flammables and the pilot light.... Can I set up my studio in this room as planned?

It is a utility storage/laundry room.

I am planning on venting out the front of the house under an easment and getting fresh air from the window behind me and the garagedoor which is in back of the house... my hoses have a quick disconnect so I can disconnect when I done torching and leave the hoses outside with the tank. The hoses will come through under the garage door and into the studio area....

Here's a drawing to give an idea of where I am planning on setting up and where the furnace and windows are.... Please... safety gurus - tell me if this is not a good idea... I still have time to make changes and move in to the garage if it's not....

OK, lied about the drawing.... I can't figure out how to resize it tonight, I'm too tired.... If a drawing would help for more info I'll attach it tomorrow, but until then.... HELP? the workman are coming Monday!
~Becky

Dale M. · #2 2006-09-26, 8:05am

A simple answer is yes it can be done....

The solution is not difficult but demands some good design features. First, the problem is when you use a fan system to evacuate air from an area it creates a partial vacuum or low pressure area. Nature abhors a vacuum so it tries to fill it from any source it can. Here lies the problem. IF you do not provide for sufficient make up air it can and will back draft (reverse flow ) the combustion by products of the gas water heater or gas furnace from the flues of these appliances and into the room. This will contaminate room air with exactly what you are trying to rid room of. To prevent this all you need to do is provide sufficient make up air. This means you must have enough fresh air being allowed into room to satisfy the need of the power ventilation and the convection flow the appliances flues... IF you combined air fow out exhaust (appliance flues and power ventilation) is 750cfm (for example) then make up fresh air must be capable of 750cfm OR MORE to prevent reverse flow in appliance flues...

This does not mean you have to use fan to force large volumes of fresh air into room, it just means you have to provide a large enough opening for fresh air to flow into room to prevent a low pressure condition in room.

Dale

(To resize drawing get IRFANVIEW (www.irfanview.com) and load dawing into Irfanview, select RESIZE/RESAMPLE under "IMAGE" and select new size parameters then "ok" then save drawing preferable with new name).

D.

KEW · #3 2006-09-26, 11:34am

Legally?

caspertorch · #4 2006-09-26, 1:31pm

It's rough.... would dimensions help?

the window over the washer and dryer is 16 x 31, the garage is a two car garage. If room measurements would help I can measure them....

Thanks SO much....
~Becky

caspertorch · #5 2006-09-26, 1:36pm

Is this any bigger?

bhhco · #6 2006-09-26, 3:55pm

I agree with Dale that it can be done... and will require some good design features. You are to be applauded for seeing there might be some significant problems.

I would suggest having an AC company do a ventilation design for what was initially designed for use as a laundry/utility (that really means storage) room. They do ventilation designs for every architectural thing you can imagine (not just calculate how many BTUs are needed to cool-heat a home).

Me

Deb Hopeful Journeys · #7 2006-09-26, 3:59pm

Kick the kids out of part of the rec room, lol.

Sorry I don't have any good suggestions. I know that with my studio in the basement, I had some of the same concerns.

Deb

villa design · #8 2006-09-26, 6:45pm

Becky... I'm glad you asked this because I have the same configuration. The water heater/pilot light, air condition unit is roughly 10 to 15 ft behind my planned space for torch.

Dale M. · #9 2006-09-26, 7:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KEW

Legally?

And what is this supposed to mean?

Dale

caspertorch · #10 2006-09-26, 8:17pm

yeah Melissa,
If I hadn't seen the warning on my waterheater last night I wouldn't have even thought about it...

Guess I'll be setting up temporarily in the opening of my garage til I can get a pro to come out and take a look.... bummer.
~Becky

KEW · #11 2006-09-26, 8:45pm

Codes, Dale, codes. That's all I have to say.

Dale M. · #12 2006-09-26, 8:48pm

Depends on state, county or city.....

One has to look into that too....

Dale

Just Nancy · #13 2006-09-27, 5:31am

Becky,
I don't mean to butt in here, or say things people already know. If you do, just ignore my post.

Don't forget some of those cautions are about 'regular' flamables, old rags, paint thinner, etc that people leave sitting around utility rooms.

Dale is pretty cautious. If he's saying it is ok, unless you have a local regulation stating no, then my guess is it is safe.

I've always heard from the forums (not specifically safety guys always best to not imply they've given their stamp to what is in my mind) the big issues it the vacuum bit and pulling stuff back in from the furnace/water heater. Not so much having the other things in the room. So while I'm not a safety guru, this is how I understand it. If you didn't need the ventilation for your health, it would be ok to do these two things in the same room. In other words burning your torch doesn't produce extra or enough extra unused gasses to cause a problem with your other appliances. For example we have 2 hot water heaters side by side. Some people have vent free logs and gas stoves or water heaters in the same room. The issue is the fact that the torch and glass create things that need to be exhausted so you create different air flows then the appliances are designed for.

Maybe you've all 'got' this part, but if not I thought other wording might help.

Other wording on the make up air that shed more light on the subject for me was, if you don't have enough make up air you will only exhaust what you have. So if you have a huge cfm fan and only a small source of make up air you will not pull air from that small source at a greater rate, it will just reduce how much air the fan pulls. Or in your case it may pull from the other appliances or vents. In my case it pulls from the air space around the electric outlets.

Good luck.

caspertorch · #14 2006-09-27, 10:50am

Thank you Nancy --
I didn't know.... and this info helps alot.... I was about ready to chuck the utility room.... but I'm gonna give it another look today....
~Becky\

Just Nancy · #15 2006-09-27, 11:19am

I'm sure Dale will provide better more specific wording. (And correct any of my statements that may have been off/wrong.) As a general rule he will point out any possible concerns as soon as he reads them. If he or one of several others thinks you are good, I'd be confident you are.

I on the other hand appreciate safety, but like it in terms that I can understand.

Hopefully with his specifics and my watered down version, you can still make it work.

caspertorch · #16 2006-09-27, 1:17pm

Here's what I was planning....

A squirrel cage and oven hood (modified) right our the front wall.... return air has two options the 16 x 31 window over the dryer and/or the garage door.

here's an updated drawing.... does this look like it'll be an issue? All of the other appliances and furnace vent out the back wall about 2 feet above the dryer window. I'm planning on venting out the front wall.

My kiln and torch are here I so want to get started and am so excited but I want to do this right the first time... thanks so much for your input/insights/ info/ and explainations.... The Utility room would be great for access to electric/ac/heat etc but I am ready to also get the garage ready if it needs to be out there....

thanks bunches.
~Becky

villa design · #17 2006-09-27, 8:25pm

I'm thinking I might move to my studio to the garage now or even get a shed studio. The more I think about it the basement isn't going to work. Becky I can't wait to visit your house and see your studio!

caspertorch · #18 2006-09-27, 9:53pm

Mi casa studia Su casa studia!
~Becky
Choose the garage and you wont have to worry about cleaning out that section of your basement... Choose the shed and you won't have to clean ANYTHING....

Just Nancy · #19 2006-09-28, 4:07am

The basement does have issues with the possible propane leaking. If you are on natural gas this isn't the case.

People do sucessfully vent out their basement windows. And in a pinch some (I think) vent out with a long run one way and the fresh air out the same window but a long run the other way. There needs to be 10 feet between the two so you don't pull back in what you just pushed out.

I was in my basement, then my garage, now an outbuilding. Good luck finding something that works.

Jenn L'Rhe · #20 2006-09-28, 4:13am

Becky:
Dale feel free jump in here, but if your furnace and water heater are fairly new (guessing 15 yrs or less) they are required to have their own "make up" air vents to the outside. Wouldn't having those already in place lower the make up air required to just that necessary to offset the exhaust fan?
Kay

bhhco · #21 2006-09-28, 4:59am

Repeat... I would suggest having an AC company do a ventilation design.

Call around and find an AC company that does "new construction". They have a trained person on staff who's only job is to review plans and design ventilation systems. They usually provde this as a free service with a quote. They know what the local codes are, what and how the W/H and heating is vented, and how best to make a system that will do this well and safely. They do far more than just "AC". They are THE ones the code people hold responsible for ventilation... that's why they are called HVAC contractors... Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning. They do this for homes, restaurants, industrial plants... you name it.

Show them your plan and tell them what you will be venting (torch gas combustion and glass fumes), and the BTU level of the torch. Give them about 2-weeks to provide a detailed plan and quote. They will tell you everything you need to do to make this safe and efficient, specifically for your particular room.

Me

p.s... since you already have natural gas... consider using it for the torch.

Dale M. · #22 2006-09-28, 7:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn L'Rhe

Becky:
Dale feel free jump in here, but if your furnace and water heater are fairly new (guessing 15 yrs or less) they are required to have their own "make up" air vents to the outside. Wouldn't having those already in place lower the make up air required to just that necessary to offset the exhaust fan?
Kay

NOT always true..... Only requirement is that they exhaust the combustion by products to outside....

Dale

Dale M. · #23 2006-09-28, 8:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhhco

Repeat... I would suggest having an AC company do a ventilation design.

Call around and find an AC company that does "new construction". They have a trained person on staff who's only job is to review plans and design ventilation systems. They usually proved this as a free service with a quote. They know what the local codes are, what and how the W/H and heating is vented, and how best to make a system that will do this well and safely. They do far more than just "AC". They are THE ones the code people hold responsible for ventilation... that's why they are called HVAC contractors... Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning. They do this for homes, restaurants, industrial plants... you name it.

Show them your plan and tell them what you will be venting (torch gas combustion and glass fumes), and the BTU level of the torch. Give them about 2-weeks to provide a detailed plan and quote. They will tell you everything you need to do to make this safe and efficient, specifically for your particular room.

Me

p.s... since you already have natural gas... consider using it for the torch.

Ok This is going to seem like a change of direction from me, and it probably is....

Basement though it can be done is probably NOT best place for studio because of proximity on other gas operated appliances and the flue reversal situation.

Propane in probably not best fuel in basement because it is a heavier than air gas an will pool in basement if there is a leak.

OK.... I'm with bhhco... Get "qualified" design for ventilation that takes into consideration the fact other gas appliances may be effected or have effect by/with what you want to do.... Basements are typically harder to ventilate because of location and access to exhaust and fresh air make up routes to and from outside.

If natural gas is available, use it, its much safer, cheaper, and a lot less hassle.

Dale

(HVAC means Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning)

MikeAurelius · #24 2006-09-29, 7:00am

LOL Dale, you just saved me a post --

I was going to say essentially what you said...

Personally, I don't recommend basement studios, especially in the same relative "space" as the utility room. There is just too much risk in such a set up, especially with the problem of existing appliances and propane pooling.

If you have absolutely no other options, go ahead and do it, but have it professionally designed - the professionals are going to have to take into account the existing appliances, their air requirements, plus the new installation. It will be expensive, but it will be safe.

Good luck.