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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
2012-04-13, 7:26am
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Natural Gas
So I was told that Natural Gas is the safest way to go if I am torching from the sunroom.
I got estimates that range from $400 - $2,500 to run the pipe from the basement to the sunroom.
But I read in several places here that it cost around $100... am I not getting something right?
And what are your thoughts on csst (trac) piping vs. black iron pipe?
Thanks
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2012-04-13, 2:57pm
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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There are strict regulations around natural gas piping and use. If it's not done to code, the next time the gas company comes into your home they will at the very least order you to get it fixed by a professional within a certain timeframe, otherwise you will lose gas service to your house. I cannot comment on the specific code requirements for your area. Please don't take any shortcuts! Your life may depend upon it. Natural gas is safe and reliable if used correctly, but I've seen and heard about too many disasters to take installation and safety lightly.
I am an engineer with a natural gas distribution company, but use a propane torch because of the difficulty of getting gas to our garage.
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2012-04-13, 3:08pm
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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There are standards of what pipe is allowed to be used indoors. A reputable contractor will know the gas code and be able to assist you. Also, the size (diameter) of pipe may be different, depending on the distance, to make sure you get enough pressure at the torch. The longer the pipe, the larger it will have to be. The combination of larger diameter and length could easily make every installation a different price. Since even getting someone in to service our furnace, a/c, and water heater costs about $80 here, I have a hard time believing that anyone's installation could cost $100, unless the gas meter is on the outside wall directly beside their workspace, the house piping is directly beside their work space, or a gas supply is close and they're a qualified gas fitter who can do the work for free.
It would probably cost at least $500-$1000 to get gas to our garage because it would either have to go around or through our entire house to get there. And that's assuming that household pressure is high enough for my torch (ounces of pressure). Generally I run my torch at 3-4 psig, not ounces. To get a higher pressure, if I had to get my meter/regulator set changed by the gas company, that could easily be another $300-$500.
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2012-04-13, 3:54pm
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Yes, yes, I am getting a liscensed plumber to do the work. He just suggested using csst pipes and i had no idea what they were. So i decided to go with the traditional black iron pipes. but i read some where here that people were paying $100, and my estimates run from $400- $2500. so just wasn't sure why there are such huge differences from one plumber to another.
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2012-04-13, 8:12pm
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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Make sure the plumber has a gas fitter ticket/license. This shows that he is trained in gas appliances, fitting, and legislation. It gives him legal permission to do that kind of work, and protects you, as a homeowner. Piping for gas and piping for water are different, and one does not qualify you for the other.
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2012-04-13, 8:49pm
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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thanks for the tip. So how do I ask him? is it a license like a number? Should he have a card or an id that shows it? Thanks for your help!
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2012-04-14, 6:19am
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old fart
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Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
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use copper
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Mark Wilson
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2012-04-14, 7:06am
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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He should have a card that says something like "gas fitter" on it and has a number and his name.
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2012-04-14, 7:56am
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Hi Mark, so is Copper different from Black Iron?
should he use black iron in the basement and copper when it gets to the sunroom?
Thanks silverlilly1! I will ask him for his card. so if he is a licensed plumber, it does not mean that he has a license to run gas pipes?
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2012-04-14, 9:34am
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Ad astra per aspera
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Location: Apache Junction AZ
Posts: 7,324
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Copper? That's going to kick the price up!
Lily is in Canada, the regs and terminology are different between there and NJ. When I was in PA I had a 10 ft run of black pipe done from my furnace line to my bench, with double shutoff valves, for $350 (that was 16 years ago). When I got settled into a house here in AZ, I again tapped my furnace line (I knew exactly where it was as I took several construction pix as the house was being built LOL). It's a 15 ft run from the attic into my 2nd floor studio with the newer flexible csst. It cost me $400 this time around.
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Karen Sherwood
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2012-04-14, 11:44am
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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I am in Canada, but the natural gas distribution industry is very open and shares experiences and practices widely. This has resulted in similar standards and regulations, especially in North America. The science will not change no matter where you are.
From a little bit of inquiry, I have learned a few things about gas INSTALLATION in NJ specifically. There is NO certification program for installing gas pipe in NJ. The master plumber's license qualifications do not include working with gas. The only protection you have as a homeowner is to use a reputable, licensed, master plumber who has experience with gas appliances, get a permit from your town for gas piping, and have it inspected after installation. The inspector will be looking at your gas piping only, they're going to assume anything else done in your home has been done with permits previously and is therefore fine. The plumber should also have a contractor's permit and liability insurance.
The person I spoke to expressed frustration at the state's lack of regulation of practice of very dangerous installation (if not done correctly). He felt the public was not adequately protected. After hearing everything that ISN'T required to do the work, I have to agree. Anyone off the street could call themselves a plumber and do gas work, with no knowledge of gas. Even the test for the master plumber's license doesn't mention gas. It just talks about minimum wall clearance for a toilet, etc.
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2012-04-14, 11:48am
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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Karen, how do you find working with low pressure gas as opposed to 3-4 psig propane?
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2012-04-14, 12:35pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 09, 2005
Location: West Okoboji Iowa
Posts: 497
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I have been hooked up to natural gas and two oxycons for several years. I work with a cricket and find that i have plenty of heat. It cost me $400.00 to have the pipe run across the room, about fifteen feet. I didnt question the cost because I knew I didnt want my hub to even try to hook it up, just didnt want to run any risks. I have not had any issues with the installation, and a no real noticeable increase in our NG bill. I am so glad to be done hauling that propane tank. If i had not done this i would have had propane plumbed into the house and a truck fill the tank yearly. I do feel safer not messing with that hose running outside, the winter treks to turn it on and off etc. but if it were today, I would financially not be able to afford such a venture and would gladly continue to mess with the propane in order to continue to torch. Still, i do think it works well.......I actually would love to have tanked oxygen. I think that is a whole nother world altogether. For now its all good. Now i just have to figure out how to hook the grill up to something and be done with running that darn tank anywhere....lol
good luck
junie
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MOTH TO THE FLAME
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2012-04-14, 12:42pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 25, 2009
Location: Southeast MI
Posts: 570
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I had a gas licensed plumber who ran about 50 feet of flexible gas line (had the black metal pipe connectors on both ends) from one point in my basement to another. Ran about $250. I also had a firecheck installed as well.
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Kat
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2012-04-17, 6:53am
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Member
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Join Date: May 03, 2008
Posts: 75
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How much pressure do you need?
I just moved to AZ last year and have natural gas in my house. I'd like to pipe it into the garage and there is a gas heater in the bedroom nearest the garage. My question is, how much pressure do I need? I want to get my torch hooked up soon, I've not used it in over a year because of the move. I currently own a Cricket with a Oxygenator , but I want to get a larger torch which will mean a larger Oxygenator than what I do have.
Lynn in AZ
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2012-04-17, 10:47am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Many small torches will run on residential pressure (about 13 IW (Inches Water)) which is about 1/4 to 1/3 psi...
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=222433
Dale
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2012-04-17, 2:34pm
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Alaska Boro
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Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
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Have used the GGT Cricket and Scorpion on natural gas at 11 WC and they work fine.
To convert, 1 WC is equal to .036126 psi. Thus 11 WC is equal to .397 psi.
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2012-04-17, 2:36pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 25, 2009
Location: Southeast MI
Posts: 570
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Mine just runs on household psi and I do just fine. Plenty of heat.
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Kat
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2012-04-19, 7:15am
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Are fire checks neccessary and how much extra money am I looking at to be spend by adding one?
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2012-04-20, 9:58am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,723
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Fire check is a good idea.
Compared to the cost of the plumbing the firecheck is neglegable; maybe $15 to $20 more.
Here in the Seattle, King County, area you can install your own gas piping. I did my house several years back. The permit requires a drawing done to certian specs, testing under pressure, and a final inspection.
PJH
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2012-04-20, 12:48pm
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Thanks PJH!
Are they call anything else in the plumbing world? When I say firecheck, none of the plumbers know what I am talking about, and just tells me that I don't need it... Is there a manufacturer and model number I can tell them to look into?
Thanks again!!!
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2012-04-20, 2:06pm
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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Fire check and flashback arrestor should be the same thing. You can check with a local welding shop for more info, as they should have them (at least mine does - it's a big chain store).
I would imagine in the plumbing world (mostly water, and in your case gas appliances) they probably aren't much heard of, since those items don't have any use for flashback arrestors.
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2012-04-20, 2:55pm
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Cave Dweller
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Join Date: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @miniuniworld
Thanks PJH!
Are they call anything else in the plumbing world? When I say firecheck, none of the plumbers know what I am talking about, and just tells me that I don't need it... Is there a manufacturer and model number I can tell them to look into?
Thanks again!!!
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Here you go:
http://carlislemachine.com/industrial/firechecks.php
Mr. Dale M. showed me these.
From all reports they do not require the cracking pressure of
a flashback arrestor so they should work fine with natural gas.
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2012-04-20, 7:26pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 25, 2009
Location: Southeast MI
Posts: 570
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Silverlilly: a firecheck and a flashback arrestor are two different animals. A flashback arrestor will not work on NG as the psi is too low to open the valve to operate these. A fire check is manufactured by Carlisle and is a fire quencher. This works on NG. I installed a firecheck after extensive research by Dale. He has some good info over on the AGA website. Here is an article about what the firecheck does. I highly recommend them.
http://carlislemachine.com/as_accessories/firecheck.php
Oops, just saw someone already linked to this site.
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Kat
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2012-04-21, 6:16am
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Awesome! Regardless who I hire to do the pipping... I will need one of these... Is Carlisle the only one that carries this? Or can my plumber get it anywhere?
Thanks!
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2012-04-21, 11:44am
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Ad astra per aspera
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Location: Apache Junction AZ
Posts: 7,324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverlilly1
Karen, how do you find working with low pressure gas as opposed to 3-4 psig propane?
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I prefer NG to propane. I'm on a Nortel Midrange, which is a notoriously "dirty" torch. Except it's not, on NG! I was on propane for a few years when living in an apartment here in AZ, and I finally learned what everyone was complaining about. The propane gave me regular carbon build-up on the face of the torch (which, of course, would fly loose whenever I was working with white or clear ). My kids would regularly come out and talk to me and be spotters for me. I ended up rigging up a small mirror so I could see the torch face myself. I was soooo relieved to get back on NG when our house was done! NG and tanked oxygen make my torch sing. NG and my Onyx generator make it hum quite nicely.
NG, here in AZ, is clean, cheap and endless. I love not having to swap out tanks or worrying about gunked up hoses.
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Karen Sherwood
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2012-04-22, 9:22am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 29, 2011
Location: Western Kentucky
Posts: 449
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I recently ordered a firecheck from Carlisle. I ordered part 18A002-0000 C-80 1/4" npt and it was $51.48 plus shipping. I just called and told them what I wanted. Very nice folks! I was able to get some other parts of hardware I needed from a local ACE hardware store. Make sure to tell them it's for a gas line. I was able to get another fuel gas coupler that I needed at a local Airgas supply that I didn't even know our town had! ABR Imagery has some of this hardware available in their catalog under the "torches fittings and swivels" section but I was unaware of this until just last weekend. I just know I had to go from a 1/2" gas line pipe sticking up out of the floor to 1/4" hose with an elbow and a firecheck in line. Once you get the gas pipe in, you'll be able to tell better what pieces of hardware you need to get from it to your torch. The posts on here helped me immensely and I think Dale M and PJH provide invaluable information and help. There is a great description of the firecheck on the Carlisle site, and if you've not visited the forum and searched natural gas at www.artglassanswers.com, you are missing out on some great info. There are also some pictures either on this forum or the artglass forum showing a gas line with the firecheck in line with the torch hose attached.
I hope this helps. I know I posted a picture in the studio forum showing my gas line sticking up out of the floor and Dale set me on the right path for the parts I needed.
Vicki
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2012-04-22, 11:39am
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42
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2012
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glasslass2
Silverlilly: a firecheck and a flashback arrestor are two different animals. A flashback arrestor will not work on NG as the psi is too low to open the valve to operate these. A fire check is manufactured by Carlisle and is a fire quencher. This works on NG. I installed a firecheck after extensive research by Dale. He has some good info over on the AGA website. Here is an article about what the firecheck does. I highly recommend them.
http://carlislemachine.com/as_accessories/firecheck.php
Oops, just saw someone already linked to this site.
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Hmm. Interesting.
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2012-04-22, 11:45am
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@miniuniworld
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Join Date: Feb 11, 2012
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 176
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Thanks everyone! I just ordered it along with an adapter... I think that is the B-fitting part. So if i ever want to add another torch to the line... Do i add it after where the firecheck is placed?
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2012-04-23, 7:00am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @miniuniworld
Thanks everyone! I just ordered it along with an adapter... I think that is the B-fitting part. So if i ever want to add another torch to the line... Do i add it after where the firecheck is placed?
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Yes ... A simple "Y" or "T" connector after firecheck to get second torch plumbed in will do....
Dale
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