Minor burner shooting bursts of flame....???

boobiebeads · #1 2005-12-19, 10:22pm

Last night my minor started shooting bursts of flame while on. Actually in the torching session earlier, while burning off the propane in the hose, it shot oil all over my back wall. Each burst made a large ticking noise. I shut it down and cleaned the ports but still the same thing. I disconnected the hoses and drained them (nothing in them). It really freaked me out and I changed torches.........what is wrong with my baby???

Deb Hopeful Journeys · #2 2005-12-19, 10:28pm

Maybe your torch is just overcome with excitement after watching boobs for so long. Just kidding. I am new and don't have any good tips to tell you.

Good luck!

Deb in MN

boobiebeads · #3 2005-12-19, 10:31pm

ooohh you are so mean, I was so excited to hear that someone posted...evil, evil, evil!!! Well now it just stares at a blank wall...no boobies in sight!

Veda's Beads · #4 2005-12-20, 10:22pm

Hey, I had a similar thing happen to me. (I don't know how to put in a link yet) but this was Mike Arelius' response

"Was there any odor to the foam? I've never EVER heard of this before.

It's possible that the foam may have been odorant gunk that had accumulated in the fuel gas line, but since you are using a minor, which also means you are using a regulator, it is unlikely that the odorant gunk was able to pass through the regulator.

Was the hose set previously used with a hot head or other fuel/air torch?"

For what it's worth, I just cleaned up, and went back to torching and it hasn't happened since. Good Luck!

Jessica
__________________

Juln · #5 2005-12-20, 10:53pm

I've heard of various scenarios where torches shoot long scary flame bursts... but it's never happened to me. Oil? Thats just weird. Is your propane tank warm? Cold? Fresh? On its side? Upside down? Like someone said on Wetcanvas, are your hoses 'T' grade?

meister1981 · #6 2005-12-21, 9:34am

First off in natural form Propane smells nothing at all and MAPP gas either. I've be using cutting torches for a long time and its quite easy to figure out. First of the regulator has nothing else to it but to regulate the pressure so everything in the tank gets by them they are not a barrier. The oil is also easy since that is what is used in the propane to give it the smell so that leaks can be detected. Often times it will buid up slowly on the walls of the hoses and at the bottom of the tanks and will come out in pockets like you have experienced with your minor. If you've had you tank for a long time I would suggest you trade it in for a new tank and also hoses should be changed every year in order to avoid this and also since they are used in a home or studio unlike cutting torches in factories where there is much more room for error. Once your house or studio burns down its gone! so its a small investment to change your hoses once a year.

A few days ago there was an accident over here a man had his propane tank explode in the garage and he and his daughter survived miraculously after she was blown through the roof and landed on the neighbors roof and was found 30 minutes later and the man was blown out of the garage!

Just change your tank out since it probably has oil in it and the hoses too. Tanks should be traded in a few times a year to avoid this problem and inconvenience for you.

Hope this helps you out!

MikeAurelius · #7 2005-12-21, 11:02am

Regulators do have built in filters to protect the diaphragm from gas-borne particles (dirty fuel).

Additionally, since the job of the regulator is to lower the pressure from around 100 PSI to 5 PSI, this drop in pressure also acts as a barrier to the formation of liquids in the line - there is no vast volume of fuel gas travelling through the lines as there would be in a Hot Head use, so it is practically impossible for liquid to get in the regulated lines.

In my first studio set up, I had propane lines in place for almost 2 years. When we tore the studio down, there was not one drop of odorant or any other liquid in the lines. I've heard the same reports from others. Regulated fuel gas lines do not get a buildup of liquid odorant.

meister1981 · #8 2005-12-21, 11:17am

Well I guess you know more then I do on this. I'm guessing gas companies and welding companied just invented inline filter to put before or after regulators for no reason just to have products to sell. There are also tons of regulators that have sintered which only filter out tank debris such as small metal particles etc but not Ethyl Mercaptan and is why some need to be changed sometimes very often because of the use of old tanks etc.Its a well known fact also that Ethyl Mercaptan leaves a residue in everything including rubber hoses and tanks that have not been cleaned.I was just saying what I know and what professional gas suppliers companies and also welders with 30 years of experience say about this. We've seen it happen often with regular cutting torches that have only 5lbs of gas so I'm wondering how you can explain this? Anyways I won't bother arguing over this.

meister1981 · #9 2005-12-21, 2:28pm

I just had a flash that might be the problem. If I remember correctly you told me that you needed a new concentrator so I figured that the concentrator might have a leak in the compressor which might explain the Oil coming out of your torch. Try disconnecting the hose and letting the concentrator work with a piece of paper in front or the orifice or something to catch any oil that might come out. I'm guessing this might be the best possibility for your problem.

Don't let the concentrator work too long without exhausting the oxygen with a fan or something because once you get over 23% oxygen there is danger of combustion if there is an open flame or spark somewhere it will amplify it!

boobiebeads · #10 2005-12-22, 12:52pm

Thanks everyone! The tank is a year old and so are the hoses. When I hooked up my 2nd torch I had no problems. My oxycon does not need replacing but I want another one to run more torches in hte studio. This hose was only used with my minor and not my HH. The tank is warm, upright and mostly full.

I have had the minor unhooked for a few days and will try it again today.

I do not have a regulator on the propane as per instructions directly from Nortel Canada. They told me that the Canadian BBQ propane tanks are already set at the correct psi us lampworkers need.

I was unaware that the oxycons had oil in them??

meister1981 · #11 2005-12-22, 3:52pm

Well I'm guessing since they should have a compressor in them they need oil in the compressor but they might be sealed compressors so you can't change the oil in them like small air conditioning unit compressors. I might be wrong but it could be the cause.

Dale M. · #12 2005-12-23, 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meister1981

Well I'm guessing since they should have a compressor in them they need oil in the compressor but they might be sealed compressors so you can't change the oil in them like small air conditioning unit compressors. I might be wrong but it could be the cause.

Compressors in OXYCONS typically use sealed bearings in motor and diaphragms to create the pressure, there should be no oil in compressor. Period.

I would think using a oil in a compressor system dealing with almost pure oxygen would be playing with fire, Don't think oxycon companies are willing to do this...

Dale

meister1981 · #13 2005-12-23, 11:36am

Well I have never opened a compressor in a oxycon but have opened many air conditioning unit compressors which also have oil but not regular oil because of combustion.

I'm also an industrial mechanics so I've opened a few compressors up but I can't say that I'm 100% sure with oxycons. Thats why everyones input will help out. Its really hard to find why oil came out of michelle's minor.

MikeAurelius · #14 2005-12-24, 7:01am

One thing has me confused - she mentioned that her propane tank doesn't have a regulator on it - that Nortel told her that the tank was pressurized to the correct pressure for a Minor --

Does this mean that canadian propane tanks have built in regulators? If not, then there's the problem right there - if there is no regulator on the tank, and the tank isn't pressurized to 5 PSI, then she's running full tank pressure, at least 100 PSI to the torch - which is incredibly dangerous.

Dale M. · #15 2005-12-24, 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boobiebeads

.... SNIP....
I do not have a regulator on the propane as per instructions directly from Nortel Canada. They told me that the Canadian BBQ propane tanks are already set at the correct psi us lampworkers need.

Like Mike, I find this statement distrubing!.... Not aware that Canada has different tank valves with built in regulators. Seems to me statement ONLY applies to hothead and there is misunderstanding on using this tank application with minor torch.

Dale

meister1981 · #16 2005-12-24, 10:34am

Well being Canadian I've never seen any difference in the BBQ tanks from canada and the USA. They don't have any regulators on the tanks either but maybe they are not filled to the same pressure. The commercial tanks on the other hand have regulators in them even the fork lift tanks have regulators. It still doesn't explain the OIL itself however unless its gunk from inside the tank that just came out. I really can't see where this ouil would be from. If we take out the concentrator and the odorant in the propane which normally isn't very much then I'm guessing we'll never know!

As for full pressure on the minor from the tank I do agree that it is quite dangerous. Sure the valve limits but that is quite a lot of pressure on the minors valve and could have it blow open any time while its lighted and would be dangerous.

Dale M. · #17 2005-12-24, 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by meister1981

. ...Snip....They don't have any regulators on the tanks either but maybe they are not filled to the same pressure. ...Snip....

Pressure in any tank is constant. Meaning that it is related to the physical properties of LPG and temperature tank is stored at. There is no way to store LP gas at a reduced pressure unless you use cooling of tank to reduce pressure..

LPG at a temperature of 70 Deg F. is about 110 psi.

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

Dale

meister1981 · #18 2005-12-24, 1:27pm

anyways it has nothing to do with the whole oil thing so I won't get into this. All she wants to know is what came out of the minor and we have not answered her question with all this rambling. All in all no regulator is dangerous POINT like Mike said. I don't care who knows more then the other!

boobiebeads · #19 2006-01-08, 11:35am

Thanks for all the extra info. When I ordred my minor, over a year ago, Jean from Nortel told me not to waste my money by buying a regulator as I was going to purchase them at the same time with them. She told me that the Canadian BBQ tanks were set at 5psi....I am a little worried now. I will call my propane supplier today and if this information is incorrect Nortel will be hearing from me!!!

Sorry I am just replying now, I have been gone for the past 2 weeks!

Michelle

meister1981 · #20 2006-01-08, 3:33pm

I have learned a couple of things this week with dealing with the canadian government. First off I found out that Nortel burners are not certified thus are technically not legal for sale or to be used but since there is no regulations on these they are allowed to be sold anyways.

Insurance wise be ready and equiped for any possible accident since your insurance company can decide not to pay anything if your house or studio burns down because of the use of a burner. For the USA I have no idea if the government has regulations on the burners unlike here.

I also went to a glass school here in montreal which had the building inspector on their tails a while back for using Nortel ranger torches and minors which are not certified burners. The guy over there had to get the specs for the burners and contacted Jean and Peter and was denied at first the papers and then they told him they would fax them and it took 3 months before they actually sent anything and in the end they sent him a publicity flyer with a simple description of the ranger torch and nothing else. The school ended up measuring the orifice holes etc on their own in order to continue their activities We all know that often nortel's customer service is down the drain!

Be careful and get yourself a regulator with any gas or pressure that you use any time you deal with it. $100 for a regulator can save your life and your house or studio and I think it is quite worth it in the end.

I wouldn't like to hear that you had an accident due to nortel's lack of judgement when they sold you a torch.

I think even mike and Dale would agree that a regulator is a MUST when dealing with any gas or pressure just to be sure for your safety.

boobiebeads · #21 2006-01-08, 8:59pm

I have sent an email to Nortel asking them to respond ASAP. I also made mention about their customer service...not that I think it will help. I will let you know what they say.

meister1981 · #22 2006-01-08, 9:12pm

They better not deny that their torches are not certified cause I can point you to the person at the school that had to deal with the building inspector!

I had to deal with Jean this past week and she was supposed to fax me some papers! I'm still waiting for them a week later.

I was wondering if you got my messages for the possible kits since I'm at it!

I also wanted to wish you a happy birthday since you were gone on that day

MikeAurelius · #23 2006-01-09, 6:47am

meister - you are overstating the certification issue I think. There isn't a torch made for glassworking right now that is certified by ANY safety group that I'm aware of.

meister1981 · #24 2006-01-09, 8:07am

I had no idea about the USA but I just passed down what I was told. I also had no idea that the others had no certification also I'm not an expert on that.

I was just told to be careful since if the torch is the cause of a fire here in Canada your insurance can decide not to pay a dime .

Its just so that she takes every measure possible such as the regulator etc so that nothing happens.

I'm not going to argue on that.

boobiebeads · #25 2006-01-10, 2:54pm

Okay, Jean from Nortel phoned me and this is the info I received:

Their torches are not certified, the government only looks at them as a hobby industry equipment and are not interested in them.

When I purchased my Minor burner I also purchased a BBQ hose (from Canadian Tire) and Jean told me that they have a built in regulator (pancake regulator) and it is set at 5psi. She also told me that this would be used in the smaller torches but she said you would need a regulator for their larger torches (Red Max, etc) because they required more psi.

Thanks for the Happy Birthday - Mexico was great!

The starter kits I am looking at reselling are more than just glass, I would need: HH, marvers, rake, fibre blanket, bead release and cleaners, mandrels, rod holder....I think that is what I have in my sets I have put together now.

Thanks everyone!

mikefrantz · #26 2006-01-10, 3:54pm

By some Canadian law, kilns that are 14 amps are not legal. How many kilns that are made in the U.S. with 14 amps are being sold in Canada? I did not come up with this info by digging into Canadian law, I was just told of this, so I could be wrong.

On the subject of hoses, I have had one hose supplying gas to one torch for the past 13 years and never had a problem. If a hose gets the slightest damage it should be replaced. Replacing hoses too often will make me more money, but it is a waste.

As far as Nortel torches go I have been using Nortel torches since 1986 and I will stand 100% behind them. I have probably sold over 2,000 of their torches and I only remember two cases of the torch not working when it came out of the box!

Any comments are welcome.

Mike Frantz

boobiebeads · #27 2006-01-10, 4:04pm

Thanks Mike! I have never had a problem with this torch until now. I am not sure where the oil is coming from. I am going to hook it up again tonight and see what happens.

If I am going to spend any extra money it will be on glass and not hoses

I guess my 2 kilns are not legal...then again I don't drive the speed limit - bad girl!

meister1981 · #28 2006-01-10, 5:24pm

I hope no one got the idea that the torches were bad from what I said since it wasn't what I implied.

I know that most laws can't be relied upon and that is why we are able to lampwork since the torches can be sold even if not exactly legal. Thank god or we might still really lampworkers!

I wonder also after all of this where this substance (oil) can be coming from on your torch. I hope you find out.

I agree with Mike that hoses are really reliable if they are well taken care of and also kept out of damages way.

Hope it all works for you and that you find the source since we haven't been able to ourselves

Dale M. · #29 2006-01-10, 5:34pm

I would also like to note that a hose with a integral pancake regulator is a long way from any notion of a tank with built in regulator (for Canadian markets).....

Now we can all sleep well tonight....

Dale

boobiebeads · #30 2006-01-10, 5:38pm

....I know I will sleep better now that Jean has cleared that up. The word pancake did not come up in our first conversation but "built in" did. I am glad this part is over, at least for the Canadian markets.

Now let's see if there is still oil shooting....

Good night Dale!