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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Do you have propane tank(s) in your house?
Yes, but only a maximum of 2 one-pound tanks 76 10.60%
Yes, I keep my BBQ tank right next to me in the studio. 212 29.57%
No, it always stays outside. I run the lines through a door/window. 247 34.45%
No, it always stays outside. I have a plumbed line through the wall. 182 25.38%
Voters: 717. You may not vote on this poll

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  #361  
Old 2008-10-05, 1:26am
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Default safest?

I am new to lampworking still working with 1lb MAPP gas cannisters, I will be upgrading once we buy a house, hopefully that will be happening soon! Is it safer to use natural gas or propane( if it is stored outside). I think I will have the choice between Natural gas in the basement or Propane in the garage. The house we are looking at has an unattached garage, however it is attached to the neighbors garage. I would still have the propane outside the garage. I would rather have a studio in the basement since I live in W. Michigan and it gets sooo cold here.

Most houses here are heated with natural gas, can I just hire someone to split it for me?

Thanks
Caroline
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  #362  
Old 2008-10-06, 8:33am
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Natural gas in probably safest as you do not have propane tank storage issues to worry about...

Also propane is a heavier than air gas and tends to settle and pool at floor levels. Not a good situation if you have leak.

Natural Gas is a lighter than air gas and tends to float upward and dissipate. But still can collect in "closed" area and obtain explosive levels...

Piping issues are pretty much the same with with both fuels. Rigid metallic piping, certified "Fuel Gas" safety shut off valves at end of piping when hose to torch attaches to piping...

With adjoining garages, neighbors may object to you using a torch in garage area since it endangers their property along with yours if there is a 'incident"...

Basement areas are probably least desirable choice for studio areas as they take special care to get ventilation correct and not "back draft" appliance flues and cause more "exhaust" gasses to be drawn into studio than you are trying to remove from torch operation.

Dale
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  #363  
Old 2008-10-07, 12:25am
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Red face thanks Dale

Thanks Dale, I was considering the Basement because I thought that would be the easiest way to get natural gas in. My Husband is planning on building me a barley box, I don't know if that makes a difference.
Thanks Caroline
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  #364  
Old 2008-10-07, 8:30am
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The basic problem with basement is it usually has gas fired appliances, and these produce carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide gasses. If you do not have sufficient make up air, your ventilation can cause the flow of these gasses from appliances to be reversed in flues and drawn into your work area... Having a barley box or nothing at all (so to speak) will not protect you... your only protection is when ventilation is running that there is sufficient make up air that the gasses produced by appliances can still vent up their respective flues by normal convection and not into studio area by vacuum your ventilation causes. The convection system is same process that lets gases go up flues when your ventilation system is off....

Only exception to "reverse flue" syndrome is if your appliances have a sealed combustion system, meaning the appliances have they own fresh air draw duct from outside and sealed exhaust (flues) to outside.....

Dale
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  #365  
Old 2008-10-10, 12:42pm
Wedhatted Wedhatted is offline
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I said yes, but it is not the propane tank for my torch, that one is outside.

Right now I am cooking on a coleman stove, propane tank right beside it.
Yes I know it is dangerous, and there is a risk of leakage even though I turn the tank off and purge the line after every use. I just don't have many other options right now. I only have 7 weeks left of coleman stove, then I can get back to normal.
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  #366  
Old 2008-10-15, 4:54am
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Default thanks dale

Thank you Dale,
I didn't think of that. I think I need a specialist to come set up my stuido!
Thanks Caroline
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  #367  
Old 2008-10-15, 9:43pm
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Default more questions for dale

So I am now looking at seting up my stuido upstairs. Can I put a propane tank on the roof of the addition? There is a door in my possible stuido room that opens onto the roof of the sunroom. I am sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread but I dont remeber seeing it.
Thanks Caroline
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  #368  
Old 2009-01-01, 12:55pm
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I am just now reading this and I had no idea how dangerous it was!!!! I have mine next to me in the garage but now I will change my ways. My question though is this how long of hose do they make? I cannot have an outside tank due to hurricane regulations and I have no windows in my garage. I torch with the garage door up completely it is about 17 feet form my work area till it would be "outside" against the house- is this safe? I would have no other way to torch if I could not do it this way please let me know if this is okay.
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  #369  
Old 2009-01-01, 1:16pm
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You can get hoses up to 24 feet long...... Maybe even connect two hoses together (12 + 24).... But it gets real expensive... At that point its probably better to consider a different torch or setup...

mcmaster.com

Use "find product" feature for "propane hose"

Dale
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  #370  
Old 2009-01-01, 6:06pm
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Can I do this though I can't change my set up unfortunately I am on a minor with an oxycon. Now this is the question the hose set I am using now is the red/green one that is kinda "stuck" together will I have to buy a seperate green and red hose in this or can I seperate the two? Also once I have the tank outside and secured I'm fine though right? Thank you so much also can it be right outside or does it have to be a certain number of feet away from the house? Thank you so much
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  #371  
Old 2009-01-02, 9:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunDoorBeads View Post
Can I do this though I can't change my set up unfortunately I am on a minor with an oxycon. Now this is the question the hose set I am using now is the red/green one that is kinda "stuck" together will I have to buy a seperate green and red hose in this or can I seperate the two? Also once I have the tank outside and secured I'm fine though right? Thank you so much also can it be right outside or does it have to be a certain number of feet away from the house? Thank you so much
In many cases the "twin hose" can be separated.. Remove brass clamping band usually about 6-8 inches down from connectors and gently separate hose.... clamping band is actually there to keep hoses from separating over time with use...

If that does not work there are sources for single fuel only hoses and oxygen only hoses...

I think the only distance restrictions are on fairly large tanks like 250 gallon or more, your 20 pound (5 gallon) should be ok just outside building...

Dale
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  #372  
Old 2009-01-03, 5:02pm
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Thank you so much for all this great info! DH is on it and I have ordered my hoses 24ft hoses only run about 45 each which is less than trying to re-wire for the oxycon and kiln! Keep this thread alive cuz we need this!!
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  #373  
Old 2009-01-28, 7:18pm
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Hi all,

I read all the thread with great interest and one question subsist, i hope that there's no already answered that i didn't see...

If I live at the 2nd floor of a building, there's no possibility for me to have a propane tank ?

Before reading this thread, i kept my tank inside, just like the teacher told me to do... Now the tank is on the balcony and i'm hardly looking for a way to make my work possible and safe. I understand in this thread that leaving a tank on the balcony is not safe (right?), but all my neighbors have one on theirs for BBQ.

I would buy a longer hose to connect my HH with the tank when i'm lampworking, passing this hose through my patio door and disconnect and close all (outside, the tank and inside the torch) after working, but now I'm not sure it's a good idea, because of the tank is not on the ground.

Which solution would be safe in my case ?

Hope my english not too bad

Thank you
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  #374  
Old 2009-01-29, 1:21pm
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Hi Sophie,

Just like the folks with propane for their BBQ's, there's always a liability risk in an apartment setting. Other than that observation, I wouldn't recommend torching inside. HH's are reputed to produce more combusion products than oxy/propane torches, so your ventilation challenges are compounded working indoors, unless you're allowed to put holes through walls or windows for a ventilation system... which I suspect you wouldn't be. Given that, it would be safer for your to work outside, but only so long as your balcony is not enclosed, has ventillation holes of some kind at the floor so that any propane leaks don't back up into your apartment, and you can get some reasonable distance between torch and propane tank (I personally wouldn't consider 3-4 feet safe... I'd want more...). You don't mention how large your balcony is, but they're seldom particularly generous. As Mike A pointed out way back in this thread to someone wanting to set up on an upper balcony of a house, since you're on the second floor, your only way out if you have an emergency with your set-up is back out through your apartment. Any of your neighbors around you would not likely know they need to leave, too....big liability. There was a post by someone who had a rather nasty event working on a HH with a large tank (fittings failed under the high pressure), so I would take this risk seriously.

I'm sure this is not what you wanted to hear, but is there an alternate place where you could set up more safely?

Linda
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  #375  
Old 2009-01-29, 2:35pm
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Thank you for your answer Linda.

For the ventilation system, my boyfriend will install one with a hole on top of the same plywood that the hole for the hose will be (but this one will be more in the bottom)... this plywood will be placed between the door and the frame of the door. The duct will be in aluminium and i plan to use a spark proof fan. This system will be install and desinstall each time i'll torch...

So if it's not possible for me to use the propane tank, i'll turn my attention to the 2 little 1lb MAPP at a time with the same plan of ventilation or a better (i'm on the beginning of my search for that). I really don't like this option, cause these can't be re-use and will be used very fast. Maybe i'll just give up and wait 'till i can do it in my own house one day... Just very frustrated that the teacher didn't tell me all that BEFORE i take the class. But for her, it's absolutely normal to keep the tank inside

It's not possible to torch on my balcony cause it's winter now.
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  #376  
Old 2009-01-29, 3:48pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Hi Sophia

Glad you're thinking about ventilation. Your basic approach using a plywood insert to your door should work. Just be sure you get a fan for your hood that's big enough (typical kitchen fans, by the way, are nowhere near enough for almost anyone's venting arrangement, at least that I've seen).

It astonishes me that a lampworking teacher would have, or recommend, the fuel tank be indoors! I'm glad you found this particular thread.

I'm hoping someone else will chime in, also, about the relative wisdom/safety of your situation. I believe your biggest worry is the fact that, with a HH, I you are working straight off the high pressure of your tank, which happens to be quite high. The difference between what you are doing and what your neighbors are doing with their BBQ's is that BBQ's need a regulator to give the right flame. Most BBQ regulators drive the tank pressure down to a relatively low output level as a matter of fact, so they are far, far safer than the configuration used for a HH.

This is just my opinion, but if you can't find a safer place to work, you'd probably be safer upgrading to a surface-mix torch. These operate at pressures not much more than what BBQ's use (4 psi vs ~0.5-1 psi for BBQ's), so you can have a tank with a regulator on your balcony and an oxygen concentrator inside. It's a more expensive set-up, but much less risky, in my opinion, than what you have at the moment.

Linda

Last edited by NMLinda; 2009-01-29 at 3:52pm. Reason: ETA
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  #377  
Old 2009-01-29, 3:51pm
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ETA: Using small canisters, in the meantime, at least will give you a feel for whether you like this enough to upgrade your torch, yet be safer than using the big tank with the HH
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  #378  
Old 2009-01-30, 4:54pm
Sofiesta Sofiesta is offline
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Hello Linda,

I've got bad news, my insurance refuse any kind of work with a torch (a HH or other) in any kind of house or appartement no matter how i get my installation secure or not... The fire department is not agreed with the possibility i work with my torch by using a hose through the door or window... I don't ask for the small canisters but I've got the feeling that this will not be good for them either. Anyway it's not good with the insurances.

Well... I suppose I'll have to call another insurances company and just talk about using smaller canister and then ask at the fire department if these are okay for them too... I'm not desperate but ... hum finally... yes, I am.

Thank you very much for all informations you gave to me. I'll try to find a local where I could work safetly.

By the way, I'd like to thank Mike, Dale and all the others for waking people about safety and lampworking. Without you, I surely had more concerns about my health and safety later (too late) than I have to deal with now. Thanks a lot.
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  #379  
Old 2009-04-05, 9:44pm
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Default Safety

I've read through most of the posts but unable to find the answer I need to set myself up safely. A local glass company told me I could safely work with a 5lb. propane tank in my home along with an oxygen concentrator for my mega minor torch. I went to buy the propane and was shocked at the $45. pricetag-the same as a 20lb! After spending a small fortune for all other supplies I thought maybe I could use a 1lb. tank of propane instead. I purchased a regulator for the propane tank but I'm guessing it would be tricky if not impossible to hook it up to such a small tank-and would a regulator even be necessary? This is all brand new to me and now after reading all these posts I'm getting scared to even start my new hobby!

I'm setting up a desk on a ceramic tiled area where I once had a woodburning stove. I'm placing a small fan into the hole in the chimney for ventilation and also have a window 2 feet from there. Can someone please advise me as to the best way to go. Putting the tank outside in this house is not an option. I wish I had heard about this forum before starting to purchase all my supplies. I talked to 3 different people-one of who has 25 years experience so thought I was going to be safe. HELP!

Shamira
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  #380  
Old 2009-04-05, 10:12pm
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Well safety 1st that's a given. I don't know of any way that you can run a mega minor torch on a 1lb (one pound right?) cannister. You never should have anything larger than a one pound cannister in the house. Even those I store outside because I had one leak on me once.

Questions are where is your window in relation to your torch station, behind? to your side? opposite chimney? and how much pull does your fan have and will you use a hood? Are you on ground level or basement? If you are venting through your chimney is it also being used for your furnace or gas water heater? I sure hope you get to set up soon and all works out well for you. I had "issues" when I first set up and had to re-do my whole set up. My ventilation was not playing well with the pilot light on my furnace even though my ventilation was a good 12 feet from the duct in a window on the 1st floor. So best wishes and hopefully we can help you.
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  #381  
Old 2009-04-05, 11:39pm
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As for storing 1lb containers in the house, I have ours in the pantry, and the pantry has a vent through the floor (open crawlspace).

In reply to Shamira: you have to have a regulator because the pressure is the same for the small canisters as for the big tanks.

I'm hoping to get a shed in the yard at some point to get away from being completely outside, mosquitoes and all, but as we have all wooden floors (and walls) I wouldn't want to torch inside the house.
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  #382  
Old 2009-04-06, 6:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamira View Post
I've read through most of the posts but unable to find the answer I need to set myself up safely. A local glass company told me I could safely work with a 5lb. propane tank in my home along with an oxygen concentrator for my mega minor torch. I went to buy the propane and was shocked at the $45. pricetag-the same as a 20lb! After spending a small fortune for all other supplies I thought maybe I could use a 1lb. tank of propane instead. I purchased a regulator for the propane tank but I'm guessing it would be tricky if not impossible to hook it up to such a small tank-and would a regulator even be necessary? This is all brand new to me and now after reading all these posts I'm getting scared to even start my new hobby!

I'm setting up a desk on a ceramic tiled area where I once had a woodburning stove. I'm placing a small fan into the hole in the chimney for ventilation and also have a window 2 feet from there. Can someone please advise me as to the best way to go. Putting the tank outside in this house is not an option. I wish I had heard about this forum before starting to purchase all my supplies. I talked to 3 different people-one of who has 25 years experience so thought I was going to be safe. HELP!

Shamira
The laws in Canada are different from those in the United States, but I would not take the word of the glass company. I would consult with either your local fire department or the city building inspector where you live.

In the US, you can safely keep two - one-pound cannisters in your residence at any given time. Putting a regulator on a one pound cannister is possible, but you are going to be doing a lot of messing around, and then you have the disposal issues -- how are you going to get rid of all the one pound cannisters you will be using. Why can't you use a 20# tank?

As far as your ventilation is concerned, using your chimney as a duct is not safe, nor efficient. You would have to use a very large output (CFM) fan in order to overcome the length and surface roughness of the chimney lining, as well as ensuring that the entire attachment where the metal ducting meets the chimney is sealed so there is no leakage.
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  #383  
Old 2009-04-06, 6:44am
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To put a standard propane regulator (pancake/BBQ style) or adjustable regulator (welding style) on a #1 propane canister there is a device called a "steak saver".... Available on web for about $20 (US).... It has threads on one end that fit "disposable canister" and on other end threads that will accept regulator .... Only problem is you will only get a few hours use from #1 canister before it becomes empty...



And be careful on what a "glass shop" tells you..... Many out here are not informed on what is "legal", many have found a way to do something and have just passed that information on and are actually not education in safety issues. They just pass the "information" on because it "worked" for them....

Dale
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  #384  
Old 2009-05-17, 7:46am
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I was very disappointed that there was an article in the flow that showed the propane inside right next to the concentrator. Seems like they should have been more conscience of the safety issues.
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  #385  
Old 2009-05-17, 8:18pm
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Maybe you should respond the the "Flow" and let them know it was inappropriate...

Dale
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  #386  
Old 2009-11-08, 8:13am
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I changed my gas line set up into the house yesterday. I used Pro Flex gas line this time. Was really easy to use and cuts down on the number of fittings I needed once the line was inside.
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  #387  
Old 2009-12-23, 6:12am
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Im guilty, tank inside while I torch then disconnect and take out. Currently building small shop for a studio with a better safety plan. Shop is 120 feet from main house, Tank will be outside, caged and piped in. Untill then Im sitting on a bomb while I torch. Back in 1982 my neighbors house caught fire, he had a 20lb tank of propane in the garage, when it went off it was unreal. It hurled flaming debree for over 100 feet causing multiple fires at the neighboring homes and leveling half his home. He had home owners but his claim was denied because of improper storage of the gas tank. For now Ill just have to be as safe as I can untill I sort it out this spring.

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  #388  
Old 2009-12-23, 7:19am
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MardiGrasGlass MardiGrasGlass is offline
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I'm guilty.

I actually altered my tank and attached a seat to the top of it. So my tank is now my chair and my fuel source. Helps save space in a cramped studio. Its so cramped in fact that I dont even have a ventilation system, except for one of those twirly things on the roof. It doesn't move as much air as a squirrel cage fan, but it gets the job done. I have to quit torching sometimes because I get headaches, but after a short walk outside, I can return. Oh, and if you're wondering, my torch is connected to the tank with an altered garden hose that I found in my neighbors trash can. It looks a little worn, but there aren't any visible leaks, course I wouldn't know it anyway. The hissing of a leak isn't audible due to the roar of my torch. Which I got a REALLY good deal on. I was able to find a small propane type torch at my local welding shop. It was a bit rusty and the threads were a bit stripped, those guys just didn't know what a jewel they were throwing away! I did a little sanding and it only blows chunks ever so often now.. nothing serious. I just keep a glass of water next to me so that if any flaming chunks come flying out I can quickly put them out. So far, I've only nearly blew myself up and burned down the house a handful of times. Nothing serious.... but I have made a great friendship. The fire marshal and I have frequent dates now, and I have to say, his company is really nice.

























I'm totally being facetious...
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Last edited by MardiGrasGlass; 2009-12-23 at 7:25am.
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  #389  
Old 2009-12-30, 5:24am
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Beadanna Beadanna is offline
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Christopher.
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  #390  
Old 2010-02-15, 8:42am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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YET again another reason for NOT having propane tanks in house/studio...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607731

Dale
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