|
| Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
2010-01-20, 9:24am
|
 |
old fart
|
|
Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
|
|
back flow
watch this video. latter on in it you will see a guy using a hair dryer. this is essentially what happens to a lampworking flame when a mandrel or glass rod gets inserted into it. an otherwise well organized plume is scattered to the 4 winds. that is why you need a hood with baffles all the way to the work bench and that your torch sits under the hood. funnel style ventilation systems will not gather the back flow from the torch as well as a hood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSFwH...eature=related
__________________
Mark Wilson
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
2010-01-20, 10:24am
|
 |
And silence is golden
|
|
Join Date: Oct 05, 2005
Location: The Shrimp Shack
Posts: 3,230
|
|
Interesting. Thanks Mark.
|
2010-01-20, 10:35am
|
 |
Peerless Thread Killer
|
|
Join Date: Jul 20, 2007
Location: Mt. Chokula
Posts: 1,148
|
|
That was great, Mark. It should be required viewing for elementary school science classes (that is, if they still have them!).
__________________
Check out my Etsy shop:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
2010-01-20, 10:38am
|
 |
Gentleman of Leisure
|
|
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
|
|
More information, "Schlieren photography" as search phrase at Google.com
Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
|
2010-01-20, 12:10pm
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
So you pick up your torch and wave it around the bead ? lol
I'm just saying static mounted torch and vents are not the same as your seeing in that video, the force of the torch and with the vent being at the end of the flame and above somewhat is different.
I would say take a look at the guy with the coffee and add pressure forcing the steam from the cup and have a vent right above him and the fumes from out of the torch would look more like that were it is mostly forced around his head.
Just my thoughts not FACT I'm not professor of this stuff lol just a jack of all trades, king of none.
AcidFly
|
2010-01-20, 12:15pm
|
|
old fart
|
|
Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFly
So you pick up your torch and wave it around the bead ? lol
I'm just saying static mounted torch and vents are not the same as your seeing in that video, the force of the torch and with the vent being at the end of the flame and above somewhat is different.
I would say take a look at the guy with the coffee and add pressure forcing the steam from the cup and have a vent right above him and the fumes from out of the torch would look more like that were it is mostly forced around his head.
Just my thoughts not FACT I'm not professor of this stuff lol just a jack of all trades, king of none.
AcidFly
|
you have missed the "back flow" point of this thread. it has nothing to do with you waving the torch in the air, or if it is mounted or not. when nothing is in the flame, the combustion byproducts follow a predictable trajectory and are more easily ventilated that what happens when you place a stationery object in the flow with reflects the flow stream and scatters it into may different directions which ventilate much different than the unobstructed torch. an since you continually place mandrels or glass rods into the flame, the combustion byproducts can go anywhere. so the incense test that a lot of peple use as their litmus test for ventilation, takes none of this into account. just because a stream of smoke leaves the incense and goes up your ventilation stack is not an indication of good ventilation, but if it doesn't, it indicates bad ventilation.
__________________
Mark Wilson
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
2010-01-20, 2:08pm
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
Well I understand what your saying but i still don't agree to much with it.
Even OSHA do not make you put as strong and direct vent system in welding shop as we have on our torches
But Whatever
I just don't thing it is good to scare people about their vent systems because of a video of some guy waving his hair dryer around that you think looks like it might be similar to our torches. "not the same in my opinion"
BUT the video and the camera is very cool tho
AcidFly is done  thx for your time
P.S. back flow point hmm I mostly seen you scaring people about their vent systems that they have hundred of dollars invested in lol
|
2010-01-20, 6:42pm
|
|
Senior Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 867
|
|
Well, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Mark. He's a seasoned, experienced person who has contributed in a material and valuable way over quite some time on safety and other topics on this forum.
His points are well supported by another LE member, a retired engineer if I recall correctly, who took similar photos of a torch flame both at rest and with a rod inserted in it. I believe he published his photos and a related article about optimized hood designs in either the Annealer or The Flow in the spring of last year. This article re-inforces Mark's points about how the flame plume is disturbed by a rod and why there are limited ways to design a safe hood. The article is compelling in that a rod inserted in the flame actually causes the spent combustion product plume of the flame to bend backwards towards the lampworker's face - it's very, very clear in the photos.
Point being, disbelief will not change the laws of thermodynamics.... We had a young member of this forum apparently off himself accidentally a couple of years ago. He came to this board asking for advice on ventilation, got lots of excellent advice, and scoffed at everyone who tried to help him. When he dissappeared from regular posting suddenly, another member got concerned and went to go check on him. Very sadly, that person reported that he'd died, and indicated that his ventilation was what had done him in.
Given that, and the fact that an increasing number of folks on this and other forums are posting about health impacts related to lampworking in inadequate ventilation, I have no problem at all with Mark and others scaring folks into being safe. I would far, far rather see (and, like Mark, help) folks appreciate when they might not be safe, or not safe enough, and help them understand how to protect their precious health. You only get one pair of eyes, one set of lungs - and only one life. Some things are worth the investment needed to do it right, or to do it over so that it's right.
Linda
|
2010-01-20, 8:19pm
|
|
Gentleman of Leisure
|
|
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
|
|
Why can't somebody take a digital still camera (should capture images) and with "setup" so it catches a profile of person, torch, torch plume and hood... Yes the live videos are very "dramatic" and yes it does demonstrate air in motion but a still shot should be just as informative just not as not dramatic...
Should demonstrate how effective capture device (hood is) .... It think if method can be adapted to the average persons use, it could be a very viable tool for verifying out setups are as good or bad as we think they are......
I think its very intriguing setup and might be alternative to spending large amount of money for thermal imaging camera.... I really think method could be a valuable tool....
Dale
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
|
2010-01-21, 8:12am
|
|
And silence is golden
|
|
Join Date: Oct 05, 2005
Location: The Shrimp Shack
Posts: 3,230
|
|
OK I'm game. I have a setup similar to Acidfly's. It is still in the WIP stage. If someone would like to explain to me how to get images of the activity in motion, I'd be willing to share the results - Seriously. I'd like to finally get to the point of having my ventilation done and start torching. I did the smoke test without any obstacles in the way. Smoke went right up the vent. All done with the assistance of an engineer. I will try the system with various obstacles in the smoke plume to see what happens.
I don't have any intentions of "fuming" beads. I think it's a waste of precious metals. From what I understand, the young chap who moved on to the next phase of life's journey, was fuming. He basically metal coated his lungs. I'm thinking that would take a full plume of fume to accomplish that. Yes, fumes do emit just from all of the silver glasses and applications, but are they as strong in volume as when one does fuming? Any amount of metal fumes are not good for any of us, so I'd like to be sure that my system doesn't fail.
|
2010-01-21, 8:40am
|
 |
Ass-kicking Cephalopod
|
|
Join Date: Jun 19, 2006
Location: Duh, Squidville
Posts: 9,523
|
|
Who is this person that died from metal poisoning? I read it once and it was debunked in that same thread - as he did not die from metals.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DOG is my co-pilot
Cricket w/two 5 lpm oxycons - and sometimes a Minor.
|
2010-01-21, 8:43am
|
|
Ass-kicking Cephalopod
|
|
Join Date: Jun 19, 2006
Location: Duh, Squidville
Posts: 9,523
|
|
Just thought I would post this too:
Is silver harmful to humans? Unlike other metals such as lead and mercury, silver is not toxic to humans and is not known to cause cancer, reproductive or neurological damage, or other chronic adverse effects. Nor has normal day-to-day contact with solid silver coins, spoons or bowls been found to affect human health. This is because solid silver is almost completely biologically inert, and even if ingested, would pass through the human body without being absorbed into tissues.
In very high doses — such as those a factory worker might encounter in an accident — or from prolonged exposure to silver dust or fumes, silver can have some mostly mild effects on health. For example, inhaling silver fumes or dust may irritate mucous membranes or the upper respiratory tract.
Occasionally, sensitive individuals suffer allergic reactions — contact dermatitis or eye irritation — after exposure to powdered silver, silver solutions or dental fillings. Similarly, skin creams containing silver compounds (silver nitrate and silver sulphadiazine) cause local skin discoloration in certain sensitive individuals. Ingesting silver compounds, such as in medicines, can sometimes irritate the stomach.
Prolonged exposure to silver dust or to the silver compounds in medicines or supplements can also result in a permanent blue-gray staining of the eyes, nose, mouth, throat and skin. This blue-gray staining is known medically as “argyria.” The condition can make people look ill, as if they suffering from lack of oxygen. Once a person turns blue from argyria, the skin coloring is unfortunately permanent. Most medical professionals believe argyria is the most serious known health effect of silver on humans. Aside from its permanent cosmetic effect, argyria is not believed to pose any other risk to human health.
The mild, observed human health effects of silver exposure appear to be highly variable from one person or situation to another. Scientists have not identified exposure levels that can be generalized as harmful.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DOG is my co-pilot
Cricket w/two 5 lpm oxycons - and sometimes a Minor.
|
2010-01-21, 9:09am
|
 |
Meow.
|
|
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Physically? Or mentally?
Posts: 5,035
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by squid
Who is this person that died from metal poisoning? I read it once and it was debunked in that same thread - as he did not die from metals.
|
Thanks Squid, I was the debunker. And I have an e-mail straight from Daniel Trilli's sweet mother that the story flying around the boards was not accurate and that he did not die of metal poisoning.
__________________
Kim
Go on. Click it!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Yes. We. Did!
|
2010-01-21, 9:12am
|
|
Ass-kicking Cephalopod
|
|
Join Date: Jun 19, 2006
Location: Duh, Squidville
Posts: 9,523
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgslampwork
Thanks Squid, I was the debunker. And I have an e-mail straight from Daniel Trilli's sweet mother that the story flying around the boards was not accurate and that he did not die of metal poisoning.
|
Thank you!
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DOG is my co-pilot
Cricket w/two 5 lpm oxycons - and sometimes a Minor.
|
2010-01-21, 9:13am
|
|
Meow.
|
|
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Physically? Or mentally?
Posts: 5,035
|
|
Typos and all -- and this post was several months *before* I received the e-mail from his mother.
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...li#post1337671
__________________
Kim
Go on. Click it!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Yes. We. Did!
|
2010-01-21, 10:00am
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
very cool Idea there dale I would like to see/get involved in that
As for all this subject well maybe we should put vent systems at gas stations "that cant be good for you ? maybe we need vent systems when we have camp fires ? cant be good for you. Maybe we need vent systems for our cat littler boxes ? I know that cant be good for you.?
As for who's who and experience well my Grandpa was a foundry worker for 40 yrs and lived to 82 died because he fell and hit his head "never a lung problem" Father was machine shop/ welder wells hes 74 never a lung problem. I worked in a machine shop/welder for 20 yrs only lung problem i have is I smoke to much. So that's got to count for something.
I Just don't agree with some, not all that is being said ! I just believe we are going over board with some things "not that its not good or that's its bad to be safer just overboard.
My finial test i did on my setup was :
I had a hood setup and the kids in the other room would know/say they knew when i fired up the torch, as they put it they could smell something hot. Then I made the pipe and funnel setup i have now and with out telling anyone in the house I started using it and after 2 weeks of no complaining I asked them if they smelled anything and they said no that they didn't think i was doing it anymore. So with that I believe my vent /funnel blow the hood out of the water and I believe I and my family are very safe now.
here are some pictures I stole from the net and Well if this had enough power to bend that flame, It for sure is grabbing anything that is coming off the flame in fumes.
http://www.andreaguarino.com/ventilation/VentSys3.jpg
http://www.andreaguarino.com/ventilation/
That is not my system but its close.
Do you really think there is any fumes or smoke getting past that kind of air flow ?
In my opinion no way! fumes or smoke could be 2 foot away and its still going to be sucked into the vent.
Sorry I disagree with some of this but when do you say its good enough ? I did what I could with the money and resources I had and well to me Its good enough and I sleep fine at night knowing me and my family are safe.
Thx for your time
AcidFly
|
2010-01-21, 10:03am
|
|
And silence is golden
|
|
Join Date: Oct 05, 2005
Location: The Shrimp Shack
Posts: 3,230
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by squid
Prolonged exposure to silver dust or to the silver compounds in medicines or supplements can also result in a permanent blue-gray staining of the eyes, nose, mouth, throat and skin. This blue-gray staining is known medically as “argyria.” The condition can make people look ill, as if they suffering from lack of oxygen. Once a person turns blue from argyria, the skin coloring is unfortunately permanent.
|
The all important answer to "Why so blue panda bear"!
|
2010-01-21, 10:13am
|
|
And silence is golden
|
|
Join Date: Oct 05, 2005
Location: The Shrimp Shack
Posts: 3,230
|
|
Cool pix Steve. The last one has me confused. The door is wide open to let the exhaust out with the portable ventilation system, only to leave access for the fumes to come right back in should a back draft of wind occur. Any thoughts on this?
|
2010-01-21, 10:16am
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
I believe that was his temp/portable setup. to try it out and after that they installed the system into the walls.
I Think !
AcidFly
|
2010-01-21, 10:17am
|
|
And silence is golden
|
|
Join Date: Oct 05, 2005
Location: The Shrimp Shack
Posts: 3,230
|
|
OIC.
|
2010-01-21, 10:39am
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
O ya My funnel is on top of the flame well not right over it but at a 45 % angle. "you know what I'm saying lol" So I guess its like a mini hood. Thought it would not hurt just in case you guys were right, just in case. So I guess I do agree somewhat as I did it with out thinking.
I guess my disagreement is size and how far do we go ?
That's all, didn't mean to make this a debate.
Sorry
AcidFly
|
2010-01-21, 2:13pm
|
|
Gentleman of Leisure
|
|
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
|
|
__________________
You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vendor-Artist-Studio-Teacher Registry
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
|
2010-01-21, 2:16pm
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
Thanks for the links that's alot of reading lol
Thx for your time
AcidFly
|
2010-01-21, 2:26pm
|
|
old fart
|
|
Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
Why can't somebody take a digital still camera (should capture images) and with "setup" so it catches a profile of person, torch, torch plume and hood... Yes the live videos are very "dramatic" and yes it does demonstrate air in motion but a still shot should be just as informative just not as not dramatic...
Should demonstrate how effective capture device (hood is) .... It think if method can be adapted to the average persons use, it could be a very viable tool for verifying out setups are as good or bad as we think they are......
I think its very intriguing setup and might be alternative to spending large amount of money for thermal imaging camera.... I really think method could be a valuable tool....
Dale
|
actually, i have everything to make a camera except for a large telescope mirror. the larger the better. i will check around to see if i can pick one up. i would use a 630nm red laser diode coupled into a single mode optical fiber to act as the spatial filter. then all i need is the mirror, a short focus camera and a razor blade. if anyone has an old telescope they want to dedicate to science, please let me know. basically the size of the measurement zone is about 50% of the mirror diameter so with a 6 inch mirror i could see the 3 inches directly above the torch flame.
__________________
Mark Wilson
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
2010-01-21, 4:23pm
|
|
Boro Bum
|
|
Join Date: Sep 19, 2009
Location: Western NY
Posts: 317
|
|
I got a old one but its one of those cheap ones from walmart  It probably would not work or be big enough but its yours if you want it I would still have to look in the mess in the garage but it should be in there. Its the older straight ones not the ball style, Probably about 3 or so feet long.
AcidFly
|
2010-01-21, 7:51pm
|
|
Senior Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 867
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgslampwork
Thanks Squid, I was the debunker. And I have an e-mail straight from Daniel Trilli's sweet mother that the story flying around the boards was not accurate and that he did not die of metal poisoning.
|
Thanks for the clarification - I missed your original post. What he posted he was doing at the time didn't sound at all safe, and he was so stubborn and contrary that it left me feeling very concerned in his behalf as I read his posts. I'm so glad to know that he didn't die. That truly would have been awful.
Linda
|
2010-01-21, 8:33pm
|
|
Senior Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 867
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFly
very cool Idea there dale I would like to see/get involved in that
here are some pictures I stole from the net and Well if this had enough power to bend that flame, It for sure is grabbing anything that is coming off the flame in fumes.
http://www.andreaguarino.com/ventilation/VentSys3.jpg
http://www.andreaguarino.com/ventilation/
That is not my system but its close.
Do you really think there is any fumes or smoke getting past that kind of air flow ?
In my opinion no way! fumes or smoke could be 2 foot away and its still going to be sucked into the vent.
Sorry I disagree with some of this but when do you say its good enough ? I did what I could with the money and resources I had and well to me Its good enough and I sleep fine at night knowing me and my family are safe.
Thx for your time
AcidFly |
Although it may not be intuitively obvious, there's a very good chance that fumes are not being fully extracted by this ventilation approach, as appealing as it looks. The plume around the flame is mostly invisible to the naked eye, so you can't tell by looking whether it's getting completely sucked down into the funnel. You need another kind of test or special photography like the Schlieren technique or other ideas being brought up here to know for sure. Room drafts, eddy currents caused by your hands and body as you move around the flame, and the rod itself in particular all create turbulence that can kick parts of the plume around such that this type of funnel arrangement might not be able to get it all. Remember that really hot air rises really fast - perhaps faster than this kind of system can respond. The other problem with this approach is that it's trying to pull the hot plume down - working against the fact that hot air rises instead of taking advantage of that thermodynamic principle.
Unfortunately, I haven't run across anyone who knows how to analyze this, and other types of funnel systems, to know for sure if they provide the right level of protection for our needs, nor have I run across any posts by anyone who might have tested one to see if it's doing what it should. By contrast, and as Dale rightly notes, the traditional hoods that Mark, Dale and others have promoted have well founded safety bases.
A safe hood doesn't have to be expensive, by the way. I've made mine out of left-over 2x4's, cheap sheet metal and equally cheap backer board. Others have done clever, inexpensive hoods with sheet metal.
In your own case, it wouldn't take much to make your set-up safer, along the lines of Dales links, and could very likely be done quite inexpensively. To get an idea how well your current hood configuration is working for you, you might consider setting off a smoke bomb next to your flame with a rod inserted in it. Havea family member take a side-view video as you do this so that you can play it back and see if all of the smoke is getting extracted or not. If it isn't, then you might want to re-think your arrangement. As to your question regarding how to know when you're good enough, Dales links and the following resource can help you:
http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/ventilation-primer/
and
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/index.php
Linda
|
2010-01-21, 10:31pm
|
|
Meow.
|
|
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Physically? Or mentally?
Posts: 5,035
|
|
Linda, to clarify further he did, indeed, pass away--but not after working a 15 hour session and not from metal poisoning as had been reported on several forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMLinda
Thanks for the clarification - I missed your original post. What he posted he was doing at the time didn't sound at all safe, and he was so stubborn and contrary that it left me feeling very concerned in his behalf as I read his posts. I'm so glad to know that he didn't die. That truly would have been awful.
Linda
|
__________________
Kim
Go on. Click it!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Yes. We. Did!
|
2010-01-22, 5:38am
|
|
Senior Member
|
|
Join Date: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 867
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgslampwork
Linda, to clarify further he did, indeed, pass away--but not after working a 15 hour session and not from metal poisoning as had been reported on several forums.
|
Thank you for your further clarification. It's sad that we lost him for any reason.
Linda
|
2010-01-22, 8:00am
|
|
old fart
|
|
Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
|
|
__________________
Mark Wilson
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:48am.
|
