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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them? 63 51.22%
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!! 37 30.08%
Who care? I just want to learn!! 13 10.57%
Huh? Students have rights? Since when? 10 8.13%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbarr View Post
Teachers should not teach in inadequate studios and force these places to change.
Well said.

Students do need to speak up but most of the time, students do not have any clout coz the studio can always find other students.
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  #32  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:52pm
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And what about the poor newbie, Kimberly? In Hayley's own words:

Quote:
Speak up in this forum and be an outcast because we complained about a well-respected establishment . . . and be called a trouble maker?

Beside, most students don't know better.
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  #33  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:52pm
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That is why they continue to avoid the issues.
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  #34  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
I'm curious. I know they have to take a class to become certified, and I am sure that the class teaches them to use PMC effectively, but do you think the class teaches them to be good teachers?? They get more money, but are they better teachers than those that are not certified?? The whole certification thing seems dicey to me.
Honestly, I'm not sure. We teach PMC classes, but we aren't certified. We teach 2-3 classes in PMC per year, so it isn't worth it to us to get the certification. I teach 2-3 lampworking classes a month, so anything that would boost my reputation as a teacher and get me more exposure would be a good thing for me.
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  #35  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
Good! I am glad you are speaking up now. You spoke to the studio, maybe next time - send an email to the instructor and tell them you wanted to take the class, but the ventillation was an issue and the studio wouldn't do anything about it. Speak to other students, anyone that will listen if you truly feel it is an issue.

If all else fails, then don't give them your business. Sometimes, that is all you can do.
I have! I have spoken to another teacher who is due to teach there AND I have spoken to everyone who would listen (lol!) about the situation. AND I have been buying all my glass from Frantz!

It's tough tho coz it's local and I would LOVE to take the workshop with Akihiro Okhama!
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  #36  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:54pm
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I had no clue about ventilation until recently--I had been told by my first "teacher" that a cross draft was adequete.
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  #37  
Old 2008-02-20, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyandco View Post
I had no clue about ventilation until recently--I had been told by my first "teacher" that a cross draft was adequete.
That's one of the main issues that I think needs to be addressed. Honestly, there are plenty of people out there working and teaching that really don't know what kind of ventilation they need. I think this is a place that some sort of certification would come in handy. Have experts talk on the subject during the certification courses, so that the people taking the class know what to tell their students.

Eye protection is another area that everyone should be well-versed in if they intend to teach classes.
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  #38  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:01pm
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I'm not making you out to be a bad girl, Kimberly, honestly. If it comes across that way, it is because of the words you are writing putting the onus back on the student. I'm trying to point out a basic fact that you are very pointedly ignoring.

And if you go back and look at the text of my BOR, you will see that the teacher and studio bear equal burden in this. I agree that the student **SHOULD** speak up, but very many times they are simply **AFRAID** to. Does that make them bad people? Absolutely not, but if they are not going to speak, then someone has to take that responsibility upon themselves, hence the BOR.
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  #39  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
Gee Mike. Stop trying to make me the bad guy. It's unbecoming. I was a newbie once, too. I was fortunate to have an excellent instructor that made a big deal about sfety. I know not everyone is as fortunate. But, I can only do what one person can do. I am not the bad guy here. As I have stated twice before:

I also think that students have a responsibility. If the teacher isn't up to snuff - the students need to speak up. If the studio isn't up to snuff - the students need to speak up. Putting everything on the shoulders of the instructor, who truly has very little control over a given situation, is a poor idea. Students need to speak up!!


Nowhere in this statement or in any of my other posts did I absolve instructors of all responsibility. Nowhere.
Kimberly - you are not the bad guy here . . . you are giving us the teacher's perspective and we appreciate that!

The part that doesn't make sense to me is that for those teachers who DO teach at studios without ventilation . . . and we hope that they do know better, why would they do that? Aren't they putting their own health at risk as well?
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  #40  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:05pm
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I'm not taking sides here, so don't anyone think that...

But, about the subject of students speaking up - my girlfriend took a class with someone (a well known teacher) who was teaching a borosilicate class. The teacher said didymiums were fine for just making beads. My girlfriend spoke up and said she didn't think that was right and told her that she had been led to believe (by me) that you needed more protection for working with borosilicate. The teacher basically told her that both she and I were wrong, and that she should "stop trying to make [her] look bad in front of the class".



Oh, by the way, before anyone asks, the reason she was taking a class from someone else and not from me is because we have one of those "lack of patience" problems between the two of us when I'm trying to teach the her something. Honestly, I don't know how she puts up with me...
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  #41  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:06pm
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It seems that a lot comes down to if I don't feel bad then everyone else is just being paranoid. I admit that was my first thought when someone asked me about ventilation in my newly set up studio. A little education has gone a long way for me. I must say that information from my sensitive friends has really impressed me.
PS When I was supplying my studio, I was told by a vendor that didi glasses were perfectly adequete for boro.
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  #42  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:10pm
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Come on Kimberly, slow it down a bit. I am neither putting words in your mouth nor patronizing you (although your comment to me about "it's not becoming" was QUITE patronizing).

And please, let's stay on topic.
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  #43  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:11pm
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Kim, I'm ready when you are....
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Old 2008-02-20, 1:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyandco View Post
It seems that a lot comes down to if I don't feel bad then everyone else is just being paranoid. I admit that was my first thought when someone asked me about ventilation in my newly set up studio. A little education has gone a long way for me. I must say that information from my sensitive friends has really impressed me.
PS When I was supplying my studio, I was told by a vendor that didi glasses were perfectly adequete for boro.
Well put . . . that's how I felt . . . that I am just too sensitive coz no one else had any symptoms. I was made to feel that it was my own fault that I couldn't handle the NoX fume coz everyone else was fine!
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  #45  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
So Quincy,
Do you think two of us can fit in that broom closet with Vittorio?? I'm willing to try!
Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyandco View Post
Kim, I'm ready when you are....
Hey make room for me too!!!!
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  #46  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:14pm
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I have a better appreciation now...I'll just hold my breath for Vittorio
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  #47  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:17pm
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Yes, I am unfortunately too poor to be able to do that...unless my ship comes in soon
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  #48  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:19pm
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I've gotten into WE! so I am able to afford to go to the Gathering
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  #49  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:20pm
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You are the bestest
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  #50  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:22pm
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Kimberly - I am taking Gianni Toso's workshop end of June . . . dang if I can get in Vittorio's at the Gathering! Woohoo!

Which reminds me, I better get back to work so I can fund this! lol!
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  #51  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:23pm
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Back to the subject...how can more information get to us? I only found out about LE recently and I credit it (and my friend Kelly) with most of what I have learned....I had NO idea when I first set up my studio one year ago....
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  #52  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:33pm
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I'd never even heard of them--when I first started that is....
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  #53  
Old 2008-02-20, 1:54pm
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Ok -- I retract my sweeping generalization
Quote:
It is a known fact that most females do not like to rock the boat and will avoid a situation that could escalate into a confrontation or other conflict.
My apologizies to anyone who is/was offended by my comment. It was based (as I've been informed) by my base misogynistic views as a male baby boomer. My knuckles have been soundly smacked with a ruler.
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  #54  
Old 2008-02-20, 2:07pm
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It has been interesting to see the poll results jump around...I wonder if the % would change after reading this thread...hummm
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  #55  
Old 2008-02-20, 2:21pm
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I understand and can empathize with all sides here but it's just one of those things that's going to have to be worked out by the people involved. Not really enforcable, but word gets around quickly (especially with these forums) and it will, in a way enforce itself.
The way I see it, any educated teacher is not really going to want to be associated with any unsafe or untrue practices or information. That's already becoming a increasingly more intense stigma by the day.
I don't really see why any self-respecting teacher would want to risk their reputation on poor anything...I have yet to teach an official class, but have been asked plenty of times and just say something like "maybe when I feel like a teacher". I am confident in my abilities and information, but after 10 years I am really still focused on learning and it's not a priority for me.
Recently I was put in contact with Arrow Springs by a member here in regards to teaching a blown bead class there and as much as I would like to teach a class, I think that I will have to pass on it for reasons stated above. I didn't even know they didn't have active ventilation until recently..
I could say "ahh it's only one or two days, it's worth it, and they do have a large shop and roll up door.." But it's not proper and I sure don't want to be that guy "allowing" a class to go on in anything less than optimum conditions..see what I mean by self enforcing?
In 1998, NIOSH conducted a health hazard evaluation with the SGB in Corning New York and constructed this PDF that I decided that I would hand out to students prior to any class that I taught. It covers any and all risks in what we do..this is mainly for softglass beads so there would be additional hazards in regards to borosilicate working, colors, and fuming but it's a good read for the uninitiated..an accesory to the BOR...
http://0-www.cdc.gov.pugwash.lib.war...-0139-2769.pdf
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  #56  
Old 2008-02-20, 2:25pm
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The thing to keep in mind about the NIOSH study is that it was done as a "moment in time" and before a lot of the current knowledge had been presented. There is a lot in that document that has been supersceded with new studies and knowledge base. One example is the part on eyewear. New studies have been done that indicate that there are major issues with visible light hazards -- that is new in the last 6 months.

It is 10 years old, and 10 years is a looooooong time in this industry...we are doing a whole lot more boro now, plus new techniques like fuming etc. It is certainly a good read and good basic information, but it should not be relied upon as the end-all and be-all and final word on the subject.
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  #57  
Old 2008-02-20, 2:37pm
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I was also taught that wiping down you work space would alleviate a lot of fallen contamination-esp after working with silver glass-that you stir up while torching.
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Old 2008-02-20, 2:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
The thing to keep in mind about the NIOSH study is that it was done as a "moment in time" and before a lot of the current knowledge had been presented. There is a lot in that document that has been supersceded with new studies and knowledge base. One example is the part on eyewear. New studies have been done that indicate that there are major issues with visible light hazards -- that is new in the last 6 months.

It is 10 years old, and 10 years is a looooooong time in this industry...we are doing a whole lot more boro now, plus new techniques like fuming etc. It is certainly a good read and good basic information, but it should not be relied upon as the end-all and be-all and final word on the subject.
This is definitely not something that I would promote as an end-all/be-all of any kind. Agreed that huge progress and discoveries have been made in regards to exposures and protection measures. Even though it is 10 years old it's a very thorough outline to be used as a jump off point to be followed up and added to..I does cover pretty much everything just not to it's fullest degree.
Another thing that would be great to hand out to students would be the design critera that you (Mike) have outlined in regards to choosing/designing a ventilation system for the home studio and/or double-checking any currently existing setup any student may be using.
Like I said
Quote:
this is mainly for softglass beads so there would be additional hazards in regards to borosilicate working, colors, and fuming but it's a good read for the uninitiated
BTW Mike did you get my email with the question about the blowers I was looking at?
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  #59  
Old 2008-02-20, 3:11pm
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I would love to hear from students on their first experiences with taking a class and what they knew or didn't know about safety going into the class and did they feel like they received information on safety and did they have a safe environment ?
I think most of the time students assume and defer to the teacher and have the expectation that the teacher will provide the information that is needed.
I don't think its because a student is afraid to speak up but I could be wrong. Also if you do know that their is a safety issue I think speaking to the instructor alone and not in front of the whole class is more appropriate.
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Old 2008-02-20, 3:24pm
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Hayley Hayley is offline
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I took my first one-day class at the local bead shop on the HotHead . . . back of the store, with a back door opened to the corridor and a fan by the door. We were told to bring our sunglasses to wear.

No mention of safety or ventilation. And I didn't know any better.

It wasn't until I was googling on what kilns to get did I find the links re: kilns on WetCanvas. Then was pointed to LE . . . it took four months to find LE and the safety forum.

Mike Aurelius helped me with my ventilation system - unfortunately the calculation was done based on the Glasscraft hood which was marketed at 650 CFM on its website. As it turned out, it was a booster fan at 650 CFM . . . stand alone it's under 300 CFM and Glasscraft never bothered to notify any of its customers who have purchased its system. Again I wouldn't have know about that without this forum. I have since switched out the fan. Isn't Glasscraft another established vendor in the community AND offer classes? I wonder how adequate its ventilation system is?
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