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| Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2009-02-09, 1:46pm
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Compatibility Testing--What Works?
I admit up front, this is inspired by the Devardi glass. However, I've been concerned about a few other combinations lately, as well. (Vintage 96 with newer 96, a few CIM/Precision combinations, and some Vetro odds/Moretti transparent combinations, specifically.) In each example, I've made a few beads from a particular combination, had one crack in suspicious ways, but the others remain fine after weeks or even months. By suspicious, I mean between colors, under melted-in dots or stringer, or between encasing layers. None of the problems have been the standard hole-to-hole cracks we usually think of as thermal shock.
I know "the freezer test" gets kicked around a lot. I'm thinking of doing a freezer to just-after-boiling water test. Except I'm not sure if normal, "healthy" beads would crack under those conditions as well. I know the perils of putting ice into a glass from the dishwasher, but my Mom always swore those were "cheap glasses your father liked." 
Thoughts, please? I have a stack of suspect beads that I'd really like to deal with, instead of giving them dirty looks all the time.
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Karen Sherwood
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2009-02-09, 3:15pm
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Karen, I think you're spot on with the "freezer test" observation. Thermal shocking a piece isn't a particularly good test for compatibility. The best after-the-fact test would be a polarimeter/dilatometer, but is useful only with transparent objects. Even at that, it only shows that there's stress, not if the stress is leading to structural problems.
The best true test is before-the-fact, is Henry Hagy's Trident Seal Test. It's the industry standard for testing compatability.
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So come up to the lab and see what's on the slab...
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2009-02-09, 4:04pm
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I better got my beads out of the freezer then.  No really, I put them in there to see if they would survive. They are made from Devardi over Moretti clear Devarti over ASK clear.
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Cynthia
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2009-02-09, 4:25pm
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Melt a small amount of glass at the end of a rod and flatten into a disk. Take the glass you are worried about regards compatability, add to the disk and flatten. Heat and pull into a stringer keeping straight (added glass staying on the top). Let the lot hang vertically and if the stringer stays straight, the compatability is fine. If the stringer curves then you have compatiabilty probelms.
I hope I have explained well enough. Take Moretti as your start and add a blob of Bullseye or even boro. They should have violent reactions and you will see what I mean. This is an easy way to tell if you have mixed up some of your glass and don't know just what pile (COE) it belongs to.
Bev.B
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2009-02-09, 4:28pm
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I will be putting all my beads made with Devardi in the freezer . . . this one didn't need to freezer test tho:
My original post from January 29:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley
Gravity wave bead with Devardi Opaque Marine Green? (just a guess since the rod wasn't labeled) with TAG 104 Odd Green Dalai and Psyche Dark dots
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A week and a half later:
See the crack veins all over the surface?
My question to the experts – I can understand the spider web crack veins on the surface because of the incompatibility with silver glass. Would using silver glass on the SURFACE caused the bead to break completely in half since the base is entirely made with Devardi opaque glass? Thanks in advance for anyone's input.
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Hayley
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2009-02-09, 4:33pm
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Salt Box Beads
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I pretty much go by the "use them alone or leave them alone" .
The only glass I mix is a little 96 frit on 90, and 104 coes, and I do use DH on other brands but aside from the frit and Double Helix I try to never mix.
Coes were never made to be mixed. Still aren't, but we take liberties.  and sometimes pay the piper for that.
Lorraine
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2009-02-09, 4:51pm
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Hayley, take a look at the inside surfaces where it cracked. There seem to be some shadows in the picture, but I can't tell for sure what they are.
Karen, Arrow Springs has a good description of a stringer test done a little differently. Here is the link. http://arrowsprings.com/html/stringe...patibilit.html
I don't know of any way to test stress in a completed bead that is opaque.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-09, 4:54pm
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Bev, the pull test is probably the least reliable test for compatability. Unless you can precisely control equal amounts of each glass along the pull and evenly cool the entire pull at the same time, the results will be incorrect.
Even with that, pull test results can be deceiving. Take, for example, Reichenbach enamel white and Spruce Pine batch. A pull test will generally indicate that everything's OK. However, the two are quite incompatible, which is born out by the trident seal test or even the ring test. And they're for all intents and purposes the same COE even.
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So come up to the lab and see what's on the slab...
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2009-02-09, 5:03pm
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After visiting Double Helix and seeing how carefully they test compatability of their product with 4 different glass manufacturers' clear glass........and how discriminating they are about only releasing product that is easily within tolerances for COE with ALL 4 of the other manufacturers they test against, I am quite comfortable using their product along with the clear 104 I am using.
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2009-02-09, 5:13pm
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Thanks, Pam - I looked at the interior where it broke and there were crack lines close to the edge between the silver glass . . . as for the base bead itsellf, there may be a couple of small cracks but it's hard to tell. I need to get a magnifying glass to scrutinize it more!
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Hayley
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2009-02-09, 5:36pm
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Close to the edge probably wouldn't do it. I was wondering if you saw where bubbles were or something like that.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-09, 5:45pm
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Thanks everyone!
I went ahead anyway, since the beads were already in the freezer. I figured I'd really push the envelope, so all of my suspicious beads went directly from freezer to water that had boiled for 2 minutes and been poured into a pyrex cup. I let them all cool to room temperature before removing them.
The only problem I had was a bead made of CIM Peace white as the base, encased in the Devardi transparent orange, then swiped with random trails of Triton. Some of the thinner bits of Triton broke off, but I'm willing to blame "operator error" on those, since I likely didn't melt them in very well. I'll post all of my pix in the Devardi results thread tomorrow (the light here totally sucks today).
One bead I was really concerned about was a base of Vetro strawberry sweet (or whatever that muddy red is), spiraled with Lauscha Supernova, then heavily encased with Precision clear. It's pretty, in a muddy sort of way. No cracks! I'll stop giving it dirty looks now.
My daughter thought I was losing it, BTW. She went to out to the freezer to get some bread for dinner, and found the beads in a baggie. She thought maybe I brought them downstairs and got "confused." Sheesh! 
Hayley, quick question....is all of that webbing cracking (esp around the top-most dot in the pic) or is it color threading like Copper Green does? Just curious. I got a pea green that gets a darker line right down the middle. Oh, and I wanna be you when I grow up, your gravity beads are awesome!
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Karen Sherwood
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2009-02-09, 6:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prairieson
The best true test is before-the-fact, is Henry Hagy's Trident Seal Test. It's the industry standard for testing compatability.
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Could someone point me to a source where I could learn more about this test?
Thanks!
Linda
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2009-02-09, 7:11pm
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da General
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Pam, I will take a close up of the pieces tomorrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDreamer
Hayley, quick question....is all of that webbing cracking (esp around the top-most dot in the pic) or is it color threading like Copper Green does? Just curious. I got a pea green that gets a darker line right down the middle. Oh, and I wanna be you when I grow up, your gravity beads are awesome!
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I put a red line next to each crack.
I got cracks on another bead using various Devardi and Terranova 2 . . . will show pix tomorrow.
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Hayley
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2009-02-10, 1:16am
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Gee Prairieson
I thought the pull test was going to save such a lot of trouble. Better go and check those links and learn some more.
Thanks for your imput.
Bev.B
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2009-02-10, 8:01am
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Thanks Prairieson, I will look into those links carefully.
Incompatibility issue has been on my mind quite a bit lately. So thanks Karen for starting this thread.
To me, the freezer test is not totally reliable: a while back I did a test (it was to demonstrate to friends the importance of annealing in the durability of glass beads).
I made 5 different beads but 3 of each kind (total 15 beads). I let one serie cool in a fiber blanket, one in a warm crock pot with vermiculite and one was kiln annealed. I froze the 3 series and plonged them in hot water afterwards. Only 1 out of 15 cracked, but keep in mind that only 5 were annealed. So there must have been stress in the other 10, but only 1 didn't pass the freezer test.
I wish there was a simple way to test the durability of a combo. Most of the time, in my beads, there is more than 2 different glass.
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Sylvie D
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2009-02-10, 11:23am
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Sylvie - thank you for sharing your freezer test result.
I did put the rest of my Devardi beads in the freezer and two more bit the dust:
My original post from 29 January:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley
Black Metallic with Precision 104 Diamond Clear decoration. It's interesting to note that applying Clear AFTER oxydizing results in lots of bubbles under the Clear (you can see that under the leaves). Apply Clear BEFORE oxydizing just gives you black (as in the lines). Bead is 52mm long.
This is my favorite - the semi opaque colors. I love the Semi Opaque Marine, yet it's the one glass that gives me the most problem with shattering. This is Semi Opaque Marine, Semi Opaque White (I think it's white but it's more a pale blue), Opaque Violet and Double Helix Terranova 2. Bead is 60mm long.
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Here they are today, again I drew red lines next to the cracks . . .
It is not even compatible with DIAMOND CLEAR!!!!!
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Hayley
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2009-02-10, 11:25am
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Pam, here is the cross sections of the breaks. It does look to me there are tiny fractures left from bubbles, perhaps? I am not experiment enough to know. Perhaps I should send them to you to scrutinize! lol!
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Hayley
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2009-02-10, 11:34am
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Wow, Hayley, I am so sorry. I absolutely loved the second one when I first saw it!!
It's really hard to tell from the second one because of what I am assuming is glare. The first one appears to have some small bubbles, but I honestly can't tell for sure.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2009-02-10, 11:42am
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Thanks, Pam. The second one is my favorite too! You will be surprised how many more cracks have developed since I took it out of the freezer and photographed it! As for the glare - the break is so rough on this bead that it's difficult to tell even in person.
I really hope no one plans on selling beads using this glass anytime soon . . .
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Hayley
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2009-02-10, 11:45am
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Thanks so much for the compatibility testing links, Prairieson!
Too bad about the cracked beads - they were beautiful.
Linda
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2009-02-10, 11:45am
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You know - I have had many beads made with silver glass with incompatibility issues . . . for example, Precision's second batch of Waterfall cracked like crazy when encased. But I have NEVER had any of my beads broke in half like the ones made with Devardi glass. I would love to find out if others have had beads broken in half due to incompatibilities and what glass combination they used!
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Hayley
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2009-02-10, 12:34pm
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Lol.. I thought this thread was going to be about e-harmony.
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2009-02-10, 12:47pm
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That's funny, Lori!!! lol!
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Hayley
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2009-02-10, 1:14pm
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LOL Lori!
I've had my first tragedy from yesterday's "fire & ice" testing. Oddly enough, it wasn't a Devardi bead, but a raised floral I've been suspicious about for several months. I can't explain why I was concerned, but I was. It was a "kitchen sink" sort of bead for me. The base was CIM Peace, with a wrap of blue-green dichro melted in, then some vining from a 96 COE frit blend (on a pale emerald Moretti core), all encased in Vetro clear. On the surface I applied more vines and leaves from the same frit blend stringer, and raised flowers with one of the many corals. The cracks appear to follow both the encased vines and the dichro.
My floral abilities are cursed. LOL
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2009-02-10, 1:20pm
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Yes thanks for the links I found it very interesting made me think about the viscosity of the deverdi glass being so different. I didn't try it myself just going on what others have said about it being stiff. And after reading that a whole lot of other stuff is starting to make sense.
Hayleyhope you didn't waste too much time using that glass . shocking how they cracked .
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2009-02-10, 1:41pm
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moth to the flame
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I appreciate the incompatability info too.
Even before Devardi came into question I made a bead out of CIM, SIS and 104 shards.
Its been several months ago and the guy I made it for told me last week it just fell apart.
Crumbled were his exact words. I wish he had saved it for me to look at but he didn't.
I did question him about it and it wasn't thermal by all indications, it was incompatability issues but between which ingredients I used I can't figure that out. They all should have been compatable.
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2009-02-10, 1:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeadMaven
I appreciate the incompatability info too.
Even before Devardi came into question I made a bead out of CIM, SIS and 104 shards.
Its been several months ago and the guy I made it for told me last week it just fell apart.
Crumbled were his exact words. I wish he had saved it for me to look at but he didn't.
I did question him about it and it wasn't thermal by all indications, it was incompatability issues but between which ingredients I used I can't figure that out. They all should have been compatable.
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That's how my second bead is . . . crumbling . . . right before my eyes! It's amazing how it continues to develop more and more crack fractures. If I didn't like the bead, I would have thought it were cool . . . well it's still cool but kinda sad coz it was so pretty!
No Yellowbird, I only spent one session working with Devardi . . . sending them all to a friend who has already had some and knew what she was getting! I was going to send her my beads too but most of them are cracked now – two more casualties but I don't think I need to post more pix . . .
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2009-02-10, 1:59pm
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moth to the flame
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Hayley, maybe it has something to do with the viscosity?
I have read before that working time can change properties in the glass. I know the bead that I made that crumbled took me longer than most....heating and reheating while working and shaping it - and yes, I was shocked by this description.
I maybe would have expected cracks here and there on the surface...but when I started questioning him he couldn't believe my interest.
I had to explain this wasn't normal or expected.
I think I am going to recreate that bead if I can and do the freezer/boil test.
I understand your not wanting to invest more time...your beads are so pretty its such a disappointment.
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